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Matthieu Pageau: Christian Symbolism, Heaven, Earth, Femininity, & Satan
August 28, 2025
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Matthew, how do you interpret a question like, who are you? Are you defined relationally? Do you define yourself? Do others define you or is it some combination? Yeah, it's some combination for sure. Yeah, it's a combination of other people telling you what you are and you agreeing to it or and also sometimes you defining yourself. It's all of those things.
I wouldn't want to live in a world where I'm just defined by others and I wouldn't want to live in a world where it's just me that decides because when you're defined by others it comes with added stuff that you don't necessarily wouldn't be able to give yourself. So if you have a function in society it doesn't come from you and the fact that it doesn't come from you is what gives it more than you. So if you're
If you're a police officer, it's somebody else that said that to you. It's not you. If it's you, then you're a criminal. I mean, if you decide on your own that you're going to do the duties of a police officer, but you're actually not have not been appointed in that way, then basically you're a criminal. You know, you're just using force to impose your own personal will on others. So that's
Just an example, but everything is like that. You receive an identity from others, from society or from above, let's say. But you have to agree. Obviously you have to agree. If you don't agree, then you struggle with it. I mean, you're going to receive an identity that you don't agree with. You just have to deal with it. I guess you figure out what you do with that. You don't have to accept it either. So who are you, Matthew? Who am I?
Well, I'm a human being for starters. Hopefully. I mean, I could define myself in many ways. I'm part of a country called Canada and part of a province called Quebec. And what I do is I think a lot and I write. So I try to write, at least I would like to write more. So yeah, if I would define myself in terms of what I do, I would say,
I think a lot and I try as much as I can to have it be useful to others and also to have it correspond to reality and to not just be some ideas that I personally have. So it's kind of related to the question you just asked. I mean, I'm not trying to understand things just for myself. I'm trying to understand things for everyone. And obviously that includes myself. So I'm interested in, let's say, nature.
I want to understand reality. That's really what I do most of the time, trying to understand how things, not necessarily how things work, but what they mean mostly. I used to be more interested in how things worked, kind of like physics and chemistry, things like that. I still am to some degree interested in that stuff, but I kind of switched a little bit. At one point I realized that what I really wanted to know was what it's all about, like what it means, what's the significance of
events and just nature reality what's the significance of it why why are we here things like that more than how how things are constructed and how the how the things work with energy and although that's interesting i'm not i'm not downplaying that at all it's just that at one point you gotta kind of choose a path you know you gotta specialize a little bit in your knowledge or else you kind of go nowhere so that's what i did at one point i also think that's
Um, I guess where it comes from is probably just my basic personality. I mean, I'm not, um, if I compare it to other things that could be doing, let's say, I mean, I could, I wouldn't be, uh, I wouldn't be a fireman or a police officer or anything like that. You see, you have to compare it to make sense of it. Uh, I'm not a,
I do things, but usually when I do things, it's for myself, you see? So that's why I'm comparing it to people who do things for others, like what I mentioned is a good example, you know, people who have a service, who work in service things. It's not that I don't care about other people, it's that my actions are usually reserved for things that are for me and my thoughts are usually reserved for
People who are watching this podcast will be familiar with your brother as I've spoken to him a few times. How does your project differ from Jonathan's?
Well, I think it's actually quite different really. Although we say similar things, but that probably just comes from the fact that a lot of what we say was developed kind of in conversation with each other. But now what I'm working on is kind of very different from him. I kind of took a different path at one point and basically if I could explain it in a way, he's kind of
Because I don't want to speak for him, you know, I don't like it when people speak for me, but he's more interested, I think, in things like debating and things like expressing what he understands to others, you know. This includes debates, but it also includes just speaking and things like that. Whereas, honestly, I'm a lot more concerned with trying to understand things that I don't, instead of
Teaching what I do know which is quite different actually. So it's like I'm doing kind of a self-criticism, you know Whereas he's more I Don't want to say preaching but it's speaking out to others, you know, which is completely different because What I do is a kind of internal let's say an internal criticism. So when I think about let's say the Bible I
I think of it in a way where I'm doubting the interpretation that I already have. This is not what you do in public. You don't do this in public. This part of doubting your own knowledge is the part that you do in private, basically. You're trying to improve your own understanding. My work is more concerned with that than it is to
Yeah, to transmit something that I already know. So that's a big difference. And it gives very different results, too. It's like, I don't understand the same things as my brother. I have a very different understanding. And it's not necessarily that it contradicts. It's more like I'm not concerned with the same questions than he is. See, most of my concern is about understanding things that we don't. You see, so.
This is why I don't think of myself as a public speaker or anything like that, because you don't do these actions in public. When you question yourself, you don't do that publicly, unless you're trying to embarrass yourself. If you're a clown, you could do whatever you want. I'm concerned with things like exceptions. Exceptions are interesting to me.
The border of making sense. So the subjects I'm usually concerned with are kind of controversial in a way, which is why sometimes I don't talk about what I'm doing because I'm still working it out. You don't want to cause scandals and things like that for no reason. If you don't know what you're talking about, you don't talk about it. But now I'm sorry. I've been doing this for a while, many years now, where I'm trying to understand certain questions and I'm getting some
Definite answers so eventually I'm gonna talk about like I could give you an example most of the I'm interested in things like for example that this is I've been doing this for many years. Let's say since I was 20 or some something I started thinking about this The story for example of the fall that's it's always been interesting to me and
What are the implications of that? The story that really got me was the story of Tamar. I talk often about that. It's a very strange story in the Bible. It's really iffy. If you look at the character of this woman and what she does is almost like what Satan would do in a system. She does something very
Um, let's say subversive in a way, but she's doing it in the, in the correct way, according to the story. So see, this is like a borderline story, really. It's not the usual thing that's supposed to happen. It's something that happened in a strange way, but they gave something good. This is the kind of thing that interests me. So basically one of the subjects that doesn't just mean, for example, is, is there a question of Satan? Let's say this is a subject most people kind of.
Don't want to talk about but I'm interested in this I've been thinking about the what is the nature of this this pattern of Satan and what what is it what is its use like what is its meaning in the Bible and what is that all about why is there such a thing you know and I've come come up with some pretty good answers I think
And it's not what usually people say, I would say, but obviously, I think I have the right answer, obviously, or else I would change my own answer. So it's something to do with internal criticism. That's the reason for this being. It's about internal criticism, but then we have to differentiate between Satan in
In his function, which is a function that God created, and Satan as a fallen entity, you see? So when people talk about Satan, usually they talk about only the fallen entity that we sometimes call Satan. It's not necessarily that there's just one, but it's like a function. It's like if you're a cop, you know, you could be a fallen cop, you could be a fallen, you know, you could be corrupt, but you could also not be corrupt. What's the difference there between a fallen cop and a non-fallen cop and a good cop versus bad cop?
Okay. Well, I mean, you can be a good cop in the sense that you're doing your job well. Okay. And you could be a bad cop in the sense that you're not very good at what you're doing. That could be a way to see it. Whereas a fallen would be someone who's corrupt. It's not that he's not good at his job. It's that he's purposely corrupt. You know, he's doing some things that are outside of his bounds.
Using the powers that are given to him. So basically like what's a fallen entity? We think of it like this. We say you receive certain powers. Okay certain powers from Let's say let's use the example of a police officer to make it concrete here You receive some powers from the government, right? You receive some abilities you get training to that's part of it. You have abilities and you have Powers that yeah that are given to you now if you use those
With these powers, you get laws that you specifically have to follow. It's not necessarily the same laws as everyone else. You have some laws that are specific to your function of police officer. Now within this function, you have different powers than other citizens too. So you have different powers and you have different laws. So if you're doing your function correctly, you're using your powers that were given to you only in the function that was given to you.
And if you go outside of that, then you're corrupt. I mean, a simple example, if you're an investigator, you can use your powers and your skills of investigation and your tools that were given to you also to investigate a crime. But if you start using these powers to investigate, let's say your neighbor, just because you don't like him or because
You want to mess with them or something like that. You know, you have a personal reason why you're doing this to your neighbor, to someone you don't like. You could use also your skills of a police officer to mess with somebody else or to harm him. Well, obviously that's an example of a corrupt official, right? So this would be an example of the fallen police officer who's using his powers not in correspondence to his function. So it's like the idea is you get powers and you get laws.
for those powers that tell you how to use them. Sometimes people get the powers but they don't follow the laws and this is in every sphere you can get certain abilities and if you don't use them like you're supposed to, well then you're fallen. So what I'm saying basically is that what's called Satan in the Bible, what we usually people talk about is the fallen version of Satan, you see? So it's kind of important to understand the difference because
The first function, the original function is illegitimate, is God created. So if it's not fallen, then it's not fallen, you know? When I hear fallen, I think of evil. So I can think of a guitar. Let's not think of a cop. Just for this example, a guitar can be a good guitar or bad guitar. We could hear that at a guitar shop and a bad guitar is one that sounds horrible. But we wouldn't think of the guitar as a fallen guitar.
Unless the guitar autonomously is bashing people over the head and knows that it's doing that and wants to do that. Yeah. So am I correct or incorrect in thinking of fallen as a synonym for evil? It can be both. I mean, like you give an example of an entity that doesn't have a will of its own, like a guitar, let's say. But if it's broken, it's still bad. It's not evil in the sense that there's no intent behind it.
But it's still fallen in the sense that it's not working anymore as it should. So you could see it both ways. I mean, obviously an evil cop is an example of a bad cop, right? But a bad cop might not be evil. He might just need a little help honing his skills or something, but it's not necessarily like an irredeemable phenomenon. Like a guitar, you could be fixed, but there's different levels of it, obviously. So you could be completely off.
Are you can be just a little off it's the question of degrees if you're at a point where you convince yourself that you're like let's say you're. You're an official and you've convinced yourself that all the bad things you're doing are legitimate for some reason you can miss yourself that some people do by the way i mean.
Some people say things like, um, there's no way to make it if you're not corrupt, you know, so that's it. That's like a, a rationalization of your, of your corruption. Uh, if I'm not corrupt, if I'm not, let's say politician, if I'm not a corrupt politician, if I don't lie, if I don't take bribes, then I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to be a politician because somebody else is going to do the bribes and get the bribes and somebody else is going to be corrupt. And so therefore I can never be a politician. If I'm not corrupt, that would be an example of someone who
Completely justifies his corruption and that's pretty irredeemable. I mean, that's pretty you're pretty far down the road when you start talking like that It's like if you're an athlete if I don't cheat The other guy will cheat so I gotta cheat see that's an example. So of
I heard someone say recently that money corrupts and then the person who they were speaking to said no money won't corrupt me and then the initial person who said that money corrupt said well it's just a matter of how much.
You can say money doesn't corrupt you, but if I gave you a billion dollars that would corrupt you. And even if you say no, then then maybe your number is five million. We all have that number. Okay. That's what the person said. Do you think even that mind frame is a fall in mind frame or do you think that's correct? It's a little fallen. I would say it's because he's already justified, justified the corruption in a rational way, but really it's not true. I mean,
It can be poor. You can accept you're going to be poor. There you go. That's the answer to that. I mean, it's not true. Some people are poor. Many people are poor. So see, what do you do about that? I mean, you could say it's because it was never offered the opportunity, but that's just speculation. You don't know. Nobody knows that. So it's not an argument.
Okay, let me say it from the other person's point of view. I'll pretend to be that person. I'm saying to you, money corrupts. You're saying, Kurt, money won't corrupt me. And I say, well, it's just a matter of degree. So maybe $10 won't corrupt you. But $1 million, will you say I still won't be corrupted? You could be correct. Then I say, no, then your number is 2 billion, something like that, like there is some number. Now, is that mind frame my mind frame in this hypothetical? Is that
A corrupted mind frame itself. Yeah, yeah, I say yes already. Yeah. Yes, that is corrupt. I think that's a little bit of corruption because you're you're justifying corruption. You're you're like almost saying there's no other way for it to happen than to be corrupt. So, I mean, that's that's a rationalization of it. I mean, speak for I would say speak for yourself to the person who would say that. Why are you speaking for others?
So I imagine this functional criticism, internal criticism, there's a functional and there's a fallen version of it. The functional one is the positive side to Satan. I think you were going to get something like that. So I imagine that would be blasphemous to most people to even think of a non fallen Satan.
Furthermore, since you, much like myself, we focus on internal criticism and we think and we think and we think, do you then see yourself as a Satanist in a sense, but the functional Satanist? Yeah, no, you see, for the reason you said, I would never say that because it's because everyone thinks of Satan as fallen. So I would not use that term because I'm not trying to be subversive for like just for the heck of it, you know, I would rather say something less
Just a moment. Don't go anywhere. Hey, I see you inching away.
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Did God create? You see, it's a problem to say that Satan is corrupt per se too because God created Satan.
okay so if you say that he's corrupt you're kind of attributing it to god then you know you're kind of attributing a mistake to god but it's better to think and more concordant with let's say the bible in tradition that the function was created was perfect and there's an element of free will to the universe you know things can can go wrong
And, uh, then if you don't follow, follow the, what you're supposed to, then yeah, you're, you're corrupt, but the function itself is not corrupt. That's what I think. Um, I mean, look, I'll give you even an example. There's in the Bible, there's not many places it talks about Satan in the Bible, but one place that it clearly does is the book of Job. And in the book of Job, it doesn't, it's not a fallen Satan. He's just doing his job of.
In the book of Job is not fallen is he's doing his job. His job is to question things, right? Because God is basically saying look at Job. He's righteous. Okay, and that's his job is to like show it's to test. He's the tester. He's like the Actually, it's more than that. It's the tempter and the accuser That's if you want to know the definition of Satan a really good one a tempter and accuser. So he's tempts you
It's test. Tempt means to test, really. It's a tester. He's testing things. You need that function in the universe. I mean, if I make a system, I need to test it to know if it works, right? I mean, so if you want to understand this function, you could say, for example, if I make a system, a program, OK, and I want to know if it's secure, what I do, I hire a let's say a hacker, someone who knows how to hack things, and I tell him, try to hack my system.
And then he, that's his job. Nice. He's testing the system. He's trying to find flaws. He's trying to find loopholes. He's trying to find blind spots, right? In order to infiltrate this system. So he's doing his job now. See if he would to be fallen or corrupt, this is what it would look like. Maybe he would, instead of doing it to help me who hired him, let's say the hacker. Well, he would start to.
steal information and then use that to gain power so for himself you see so he could do that he could let's say it's an important system let's say it's a government system where there's a lot of critical information the hacker that i hire could obviously steal information and then use that to his advantage you know blackmail blackmail is a good example of what satan does when he's fallen it's a very good example because satan is supposed to find what's wrong
And then call it out, but privately, you see, you see, like if I hire a hacker and he finds some flaws in my system, how do I know he's, he's good or not? If he just tells me secretly, he tells me privately, these are the flaws of your system and he's doing his job. But if he starts telling other people, right? If he's telling other people what the flaws are, then he's not, then he's fallen. So there's a bunch of criteria that you can use to know if this function has fallen or not. Okay. So, and one of the.
One of the reasons why we see this function as just fallen is because it is the most probably one of the most difficult jobs you could say to have because you're like against the system but you're with the system so you've got to be both you got to have both of these things so it's like the hacker he's he's got to be really he's he's got the spirit of being against see that's what he's doing he's finding flaws he's finding problems
But then ultimately he's got to be with you. He's got to be for you. And like I said, you can see this. There's many signs to see if he's not or if he is.
So if he finds critical information and then he tries to, let's say, take your system hostage, which is what hackers often do. Let's say he says, oh, OK, I infiltrated your system like you asked me to, but I'm sorry to inform you, but I put a virus in there or a bug in there. And if you don't give me money or something, I'm going to break your system. Obviously, that's an example.
What's the difference between the two? One of them has a will to power and the other one doesn't. Basically, it's really simple. So the fallen one has a will to power. He wants to have power and the other one doesn't care about power. So that's just an example. There's many signs. Like I said before, blackmail is a good example. When you see blackmail going on in the systems that are there in the government,
You're in trouble. It means basically we could say if I use biblical language, Satan has taken over, like Satan is ruling your country, let's say. If there's blackmail going on and you see signs of it, that's what it means. It means that some element that uses covert finding of flaws
Has been using these laws to blackmail into control what's supposed to actually be in power. So that's like a satanic takeover by definition. That's what it is. So obviously that's not supposed to happen. You see, that's an example of a fallen of a fallen function of Satan. No, most people aren't.
algorithmic or consciously algorithmic in their thinking. They tend to think in terms of conclusions, but not know how they got to those conclusions. So most of the time when I interview people, or much of the time, not most of the time, they'll have to speak and many of the audience members will have to listen to them on this podcast and maybe other podcasts and maybe multiple times to understand their, what I say their Weltanschauung, this German word for the framework through which they interpret the world. However, you, much like myself, we have a background in math,
And you also have computer science under your belt. So I'm curious if you have formulated your belt on Shaolin to something like rather than stating here, well, here's what I think. Here's the conclusion. You say, okay, I have the axiom of step one, then step two, because of step one is step two, you deduce this and so on. Like, are you able to lay out the way that you view the world in some simple manner to, to walk someone who's unfamiliar through?
Well yeah basically that's what my book is basically the book that I wrote the language of creation that's what it is I tried to as much as I could lay it out in simple terms and also in relatively logical terms. So yeah I'd say I am and the parts that I'm not able to that's what I'm working on you see so there's some parts that I.
because it's not just for my mind. I use the Bible, you know, I use tradition as a guideline to understand. I'm not just making stuff up, you know. So like now, for example, I just
Give an example of the book of Job. So if people are upset by the idea that Satan is not always fallen, well, there's an example right there in the book of Job. You know, do what you want with it. I mean, it's right there. And you can see that the Satan that's in that book is not fallen because he keeps asking God for permission to do everything. So he's asking God.
Can I do this? Can I try to test job and God is like, yeah, okay, he's giving permission to do this, but don't don't do that. Like, don't harm him or don't kill him. You can test them, but don't do this. He's like giving it basically the law that he's supposed to follow in his function of tester of.
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Testing Joe. He's telling him what to do. He's giving him a law a specific law for him. So in that book He's just doing his job basically. So if anyone doubts what I'm saying, there it is right there It's an example and there's very few places in the Bible where it talks about Satan in the Old Testament at least and that's like the one place well, there's a few others, but Yeah, and there's it's a function you see it's a role. That's the thing other characters do this role to Abraham does it
and uh who else does it there's that moses does it sometimes god says something in moses is kind of trying to argue with him you know are you sure this is what you want and uh same thing with abraham abraham does it he does the function because god is wants to judge uh the the city of saddam and gomorrah and
Abraham is trying to convince him not to do it. What is he doing? It's weird, right? I mean, who do you think you are? Are you trying to tell God, like try to show him that he's wrong or something? Yeah, that is what he's doing. He's doing a function and God doesn't mind because God created this function.
It's like, go ahead, Abraham. Convince me that I shouldn't destroy this city. And Abraham does his best to act as the adversary, you know, because he's being, it's like a debate almost. He's being an adversary to God in that case, but not a bad adversary, not a fallen one, a good one. An adversary that is there to kind of like the hacker that I said, that you hire to fortify your system. You're not hiring him to subvert it. You're hiring him to fortify, but the job that he's doing sounds and looks like a subverter.
Because he has to find all the flaws. It's like a criticism that he's given. Let's say you make the system, you hand it over to a hacker and he's like, yeah, no, there's a hole here, loophole here. Somebody can infiltrate here. This is problematic. You got this lock system here that's not strong enough, blah, blah, blah. So it's all criticism, right? Criticism, criticism, criticism, but for the good of the system. And if he did his job right, the system will be better than it was before. It will be more advanced or whatever, more secure.
So what are your axioms? My axioms about how things are? Okay, well, basically, yeah, okay. Sorry, this is hard to explain because as you know, you could state accents, it doesn't mean much unless you find a little bit of implications of it, right? So, well, this is the structure I use is the one that's in the Bible. It's heaven and earth. That's the basic pattern.
So, God created heaven and earth, right? The Bible starts like that. So, heaven is the plan, something like that, the plan of what you want. And earth is the materials, the powers or the skills, the powers, the materials, all of that. Things that are there to serve a function, they don't have a function on their own. So, the function and the plan is this heaven and the rest is earth. So, in earth is included
powers and skills and things like that. So you combine these together and then you build things. You create. This is why it starts like that in the Bible because it's about God creating the world. So you start with a plan and materials. You build a house. There you go. So God, this is why it says God created heaven and earth because this is how you build things. So I made a plan for my house and I bought the materials. Then I built my house basically, right? That's the structure.
And then inside of that, there's obviously all kinds of other functions that you could do. You see what I'm saying? Like you could go, you could go really far and thinking about all the different functions. Yeah. So that's the joining of heaven and earth. Let's say you have the plan to create your house, the plan of the house, the plan of the house.
Would be an example. Yeah. Well, it starts with the plant. You're right. It starts with the plan to create in the first place. That's like the highest. We could say the highest level of it because you'd say I want to build a house. You don't have a plan yet, right? You just have an idea, a very general vague idea. I want to build a house. Then you see there's then there are steps to do because then you have to actually make a plan for the house, not just a vague idea. You know, that's part of that. We could say the process of heaven.
Is heaven then prior to earth? This is not important, I would say, honestly, because it doesn't mean anything before there's a plan. You see, it's like, oh, let's say I say the plan and the materials to build a house. Were there materials there before? Sure. Whatever. Doesn't mean anything. They weren't materials for the house before I had the plan for the house. They were just stuff, nature.
It's just nature. Before you have a plan, they don't have a purpose. It's not like, well, they might have their own purpose, let's say. Before I built the house, the trees existed. Before I cut the lumber, there were trees. Okay. But why are you telling me about the trees? I want to know about the house. Tell me the story of your house. Well, before there were trees in the forest and then we cut them down and made lumber with it.
Yeah, I don't care about that step. You see, it's not really building. That's not the part of building the house. That's like not important. It's kind of the same thing. You see, it's like was it there before? Sure. God created heaven and earth and the earth was. See, it's the earth was there. But and it was see all the answers to what you ask is in the Bible. It was void and empty and dark. So I don't care about that dark void, empty stuff, really. I will later.
I will later care about it, but not now. I mean, um, and then you have a plan and then it's like, here's the plan. Let there be light. Boom. There's the plan. Now things can order themselves according to, or be ordered according to this plan. Now all of a sudden things have meaning. So this piece of lumber has a purpose. Now I didn't before, you know, that's the case. It's the kind of thing. Um, when you later start to care about it, does it then.
change its status from before. So look, there's a void and then one creates heaven and earth. And then let's take the trees as an example, the house, you don't care about the trees prior to you having a plan to do something with the trees to create the house. Now you said you may later do something with the trees here, whether it's to study them scientifically or to do some historical analysis, I don't know, whatever. You may later care about these trees.
You later caring about these trees, does that change the status of them from a void to something else? Yeah. Well, I'll give you a better example than trees. I'll give you the example that's in the Bible already. OK, so there's like as many people know, there's like two narratives basically of creation. OK, we don't we don't have to see them as contradiction, but there's the first narrative where God creates everything. Right. And then there's this looks what looks to be another narrative where God creates Adam and Eve.
Okay. And then it's like sometimes it looks like they're not in the same order, but it's not that important really. So I'll give you the example I said. In the first narrative, water kind of looks like it's just there to get rid of. So it's like, oh, there was water and darkness. Okay. And then what does God do to create things? He separates the water. Then He moves it to the periphery. He creates the ocean.
It's like this thing is just to get rid. We're just getting rid of the water. Basically move out of the way water where we're building something here, right? So that's kind of like when we get rid of nature in order to build, you know, how we get rid of the nature at first it's, you know, let's get rid of this, this wild stuff cause we want to build. But then, so it's mostly about getting rid of water. Water can almost be seen as bad. Like why is this water there? Let's get rid of it. You know, it's not serving our purpose, but later in the second narrative,
Water has suddenly is important and you see it starts the narrative with. There was not had been rain yet like it. It talks about water positively for once. There was not a plant in the earth because it had not rain yet and then it talks about a river. Oh now there's water again, but now it's good right? It's water that's there to water the garden. All of a sudden, all of a sudden it's a river.
So it starts like it's an ocean that you got to get rid of, get rid of this water. And then after you built a basic thing, you bring back the water. But now the water is there for a purpose. See, it's now it's positive water. At first it was like seen negatively or defined negatively. Now it's defined positively. And what is it for? And that's you want to know what chaos is for. That's the answer right there. This is like water. What do we need water for? To water the garden. That's what it says in the Bible. So the water is there to renew.
That's what the function is of water, the symbolism, renew something, make it new, make it fresh, clean it. That's what it's for. So it has a purpose to see the water. And that is actually the purpose of the function that I was telling you before. One of the purpose is that the feminine purpose is to renew, is to clean. Cleaning is a kind of criticism, right? I mean, you clean something, you're saying you're not okay.
It's a criticism. It could look like it's a bad thing, right? I mean, I'm telling you, you're not okay. You need to be cleaned and then you clean it. But it's not negative because it's not an attack. If it's done by someone who cares about you, you know, it's not an attack. But if it's not, then it can be an attack. Someone could flood you with water. Well, this is what happens in the story of the deluge, by the way, of the flood narrative. Water is used as a weapon, you see, by God. God uses water as a weapon to destroy the world.
So water has a positive and negative function. You got to see it as both. So it's kind of what I'm saying too about the Satan function. It has a function of renewal. It has a function of testing things to make sure they're working. And two, there's another function too. It's improving, improving. It's not just about cleaning because cleaning just means you bring it back to its original state, right?
There's a bigger function here, which is improving something. So like, if I hire a hacker for my system to know, to try to make it fail, my purpose is to improve the system, right? It's not about cleaning necessarily. It can be, but the goal is to improve it. So this is why they say in the Bible, this is an important verse. It says, a woman is a man, is a crown to her husband, you see.
So the woman is a crown to her husband. It means, because it's related to what I'm saying here, it's about making a system improve it, improve it, make it even better. So that's what it means to have a crown. It means the system was there and now I'm trying to improve it. You see, a symbol of improving something could be represented by a crown because it's like we're pointing towards something better, higher, you see.
So if you hire a hacker to test your system, you're looking at your system and you're trying to give it a crown, you're trying to make it go higher, you see. So these functions are related. The symbolism, I mean, of the woman is related to the idea of a crown. So a central premise for your work is that we use or we tend to read ancient text with our modern eyes and we don't see them in the same way that the ancients saw them necessarily. So here would be an instance where someone could read
Women are the crown of man or wife is the crown of a husband and think, Oh, crown trophy. Oh, you just want a trophy wife, but you're outlining a different case. But a trophy, a trophy is related to what I'm saying here. A trophy, a real trophy, the real deep symbolism of the trophy is related to exactly this symbolism I'm talking here. You see, why, why do we represent trophies as a cup? Usually we do that, right? Like the archetypal image of a trophy is a cup, right? Why, why is it a cup? Because whoever
Made those understood these things that I'm talking about because it's about renewal. It's like the grail. Okay. A trophy is like the grail. It's renewal. It looks arbitrary, but it's not because look, I'll give you an example. Let's say I want to improve something. What do I do? Well, you do a competition. You could do a competition to know what's the best alternative. See? And then who wins the competition is the one who wins the cup.
Cup is the grill. It's about renewal. It's like this. You are the one who wins the battle of different competitors, right? So you want the best one. You let them compete and then the winner gets the cup and the cup is you have the power to renew the system. The one who wins the competition is the one who's got it. He's the one who's going to make it better. You see is the best option. So it's something like that because when you have a status quo and you never do a competition,
This is when the system gets old and not up to date and corrupt. All these things, right? If nothing changes. But so then what would you do if you would want to renew? You need a competition. You do a competition. So now may the best one win. And so that's a way to get rid of the corruption is to do a competition. I mean, that's why we do democracy. Right? You have a king. If it's always the same king,
We don't like that idea because we have the idea that it could be corrupt. So what do we do? We do a competition. Democracy is a competition and the winner wins a cup. We don't do that ritual, but it could be. The winner of the competition gets the cup. The cup is the thing that represents the renewal of the system. So democracy is about renewing the system. Personally, I'm a monarchist, so I'm not even defending anything here, but I understand why it exists. I understand what's the symbolic role of democracy.
So it's the idea of a competition, but the competition can also get corrupt too. So that's, that's the problem. That's can be also a problem. The king can be corrupt, but so can the competition to find a renewal of the system that can also get corrupted. Now this renewal, is this related to why women are associated with the resurrection of Christ? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Women are all about that. The women are, are.
I mean, it's for a reason that in the Bible, Eve is kind of connected to Satan, right? It doesn't say in the Garden narrative that the snake is Satan, but it's like in tradition, we understand this. But it clearly is anyway. If you understand what Satan is, you can see that the snake is doing that function. He's questioning things, you know, he's saying, he's trying to see if they're, he's actually testing, the snake is testing Adam and Eve. That's what he's doing. He's testing their loyalty to God, you see?
So you might even think that God sent the snake in the first place. We don't know that so I'm not going to claim that but I mean it would make sense to think that Adam is doing his job and everything and then God wants to see if he's worthy of this function or maybe even get an even bigger function.
Well, I'm going to test this guy. Just like when we do tests for anything, we test to see if you're adequate and then you fail the test, then you're not. You pass the test, then you are. So you could see the snake is that it's just a test for Adam and you failed. So you failed that test, but he could have passed. Let's linger on this. So Adam is there and then Eve takes a bite and then offers the apple to Adam. At that point, prior to Adam also taking a bite.
Should Adam have chosen not to take a bite? Because you could see this as yes, if he doesn't take a bite, he's obeying God. But simultaneously, he's allowing Eve to be exiled alone. Yeah, I understand. I don't know the answer. But it's these are questions that are worth thinking about. I'm not going to say that I know. I mean,
You see, I told you before that, let's say I was talking about democracy and I said, the king can be corrupt, but so can democracy. So can the process that's supposed to renew the system, which is democracy, an example of it. And I said, it can be corrupt. Well, that's what it's basically saying in the story of Adam and Eve. So Adam is more like, represents the status quo of authority. Let's say something like a king or something, an emperor or something like that.
And then Eve does represent that which is supposed to renew him and that which is supposed to find his blind spots and maybe lovingly criticize him. Like if he starts to get corrupt, she's there to help him not, you know, she's there to improve him. Okay. But you see, even she got corrupt and that's why she was tricked by the snake. So she got corrupt and we know how, we know how she got corrupt. The snake told her that God.
God had bad intentions, basically. It's like, God is the reason he's telling you is not the real one. It would have been easy for them to resist this. All they had to do was ask God. Period. People are like, oh, this is complicated. No, it's not. This guy's telling you that God is lying to you and he has bad intentions and that what he's telling you is not good for you.
Okay, I'm gonna go ask God What do you think the snake would have said if he if you would have said that he would have been like, no, no, no Don't ask him. Yeah, you would have started to panic, you know, which is what which is what crooks do when you when you do this move, it's like I'm talking against my neighbor. Don't tell him what I said. Oh, yeah, I will tell him what you said. Let's see what happens, you know so you this guy is trying to keep a secret of subverse subversion, right and then all they had to do was ask God and tell him
Is it true that you don't want us to eat from the fruit because you don't want us to be like you? You see, and he would have you would have given the answer, but they didn't. So that's, I mean, it's not that complicated. This is a real phenomenon in real life too. You know, if someone tries to say, don't tell this person, you know, this guy said you, he said you were, he said you were dumb. Don't tell him I said so.
You see? Oh, I will tell him you said so and then we'll see. It's like you got to ask the other side of it and then the other side will might say, no, I never said you were dumb. What are you talking about? This is how Satan, this is how subversion works. You keep a secret. You got to have secrets and then you make sure this person doesn't talk to this person, right? That's how you cause division. And then you say, this person said this about you. Don't tell him I said so.
so if you fall for that so it sounds like that's an answer in this act symbolic or or what have you when eve offered the apple to adam adam should have asked god and said hey god by the way eve is offering me this this is what she told me what's cool what should i do yes very simple exactly but and why why should he ask because it contradicts if it didn't contradict you know
If she was giving something that didn't contradict what God said, he wouldn't have to ask God, you know, if you have free will, you could do, but it's something that directly contradicts what God said. So in that case, yes, you should inquire. It seems obvious actually when you say it now, but this is a real social phenomenon. I mean, this is how things get subverted. People say things about other people and then they don't.
They make sure you don't connect. See, it's all about connecting things, right? It's all about communication and connecting things to God. And he kind of broke that communication. The snake broke it. He's like, I'm telling you a secret about God. And he's like, you're not going to ask him, are you? Because I'm saying he has bad intentions. So if he has bad intentions, why would you ask him?
You know, I already convinced you that God was lying to you. So why would you then go ask God if he is lying to you? No, you won't. See, that's how Satan tricks people. He makes sure that there's no communication. See? And this is why, by the way, this is why the most powerful thing in the world is secret stuff. Like secret agencies and things like that. Let's say we're talking about governmental function.
intelligence agencies are more powerful than governments. That's why they can be. They're not necessarily, but they can be more powerful. There's also why the occult appeals to many people. Occult is something that's hidden. Yeah. People like the idea of secret power. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And secret in the sense that
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Yeah, secret from everyone else. That's one thing, too. But you see that the thing is, too. That's nothing wrong with secrets, but they can be used to subvert. And so you got to be careful. It's like it doesn't mean secrets are bad, but you got to be real careful when you're dealing with anything that tells you not to say something. So what does it mean to be real careful at this point? So are you suggesting that when we
Acquire a secret that we should talk to God in other words prayer When we have a secret or is it only when that secret? Contradict something morally or contradicts at all even like a logical contradiction. I was confused because I'm thinking okay. Let me follow this God is some people say God is reality. There are logical contradictions which seem to be some contradiction in reality Does that mean that when I encounter the liar's paradox? I should go and pray
Help me. No. No, it doesn't mean that. That's an example, actually. That's good since you're still your mathematician, right? You studied mathematics, right? OK, so yeah, that's that proof of incompleteness is very interesting, you know, with what I'm saying. It's basically the function of. Of the of the female role, the.
The incompleteness theorem because it's like mathematics is like the male side, you know, I got some ideas and I deduce, I deduce everything from my principles. Boom. That's the masculine side, you know, it's like Adam naming the animals, you know, the usual mathematics where you have axioms, you prove all your, your theorems with your actions. This is like Adam naming the animals. It's like I named the animals. I'm giving a name. Okay. It's that's kind of what it is because you're, you're using your axioms to justify these
It's all connected together like a tree. But then there's like a pride to that when you do that. It's like you get prideful. And then the female role comes along and says, okay, I got a riddle for you, Adam. It's like Eve that brings a riddle to Adam. And the riddle is the Liar's Paradox, right? Like you said, this sentence or this statement is false, right?
And then Adam has no choice but to admit that he can't prove it or disprove it. He can't. It's undecidable. So that's it's like a way to say there's things outside your system. You know, your system doesn't include everything. So don't be too prideful. And this actually is this liars paradox is something that improved mathematics. You see, it improved it. It didn't just subvert it.
You see what I'm saying? At first it sounded like to some mathematicians like this is breaking mathematics, right? The incompleteness there. But really what it did is improve it. It generated all these fields of in computer science mostly where it's like this can't be done. This can't be done. Stop wasting your time with this. You know, it's all based on this idea of incompleteness.
many fields developed from that so it's like if you're doing computer science it's like you want to do this you want to create this system and it's like you want to create it in a way that it will be efficient enough to be useful and then you hire some computer scientist or mathematician who uses proofs that are very similar to the incompleteness theorem i don't know if you've looked into that but very much related and then the conclusion is don't waste your time
Don't waste your time making this system. You can't. So it's like a boundary. It's like a negative boundary to what you can do, what you can't do. So this boundary, you could say, ah, this kind of hurt mathematics. No, it didn't. It improved it. It made us not waste time on certain issues. It made us not turn in circles, which is interesting because the
Liar's paradox is a circle, right? It's something that contradicts itself and then becomes true, becomes false, becomes true, becomes false, right? So the shape of it is a circle. This sentence is false, is a circle, right? If you look at the shape of it, it becomes true, false, true, false, true, false, true, false. So this circle was used to not waste our time on other kinds of
Circles that are wastes of times where you're trying to prove something but you can't but if you don't know that you can't You're going around in circles. You see if you're trying to prove something that you can't but you don't know that you can't You could waste a thousand years trying to prove this thing. So it's good to have a way to say No, you can't so it gives a little bit of humility. You see it's related to humility like it gives you humility to realize Some things are outside my system and never will be in my system. So it's like you're saying hmm
I thought I was going to explain the whole universe with my science or my, in this case it's mathematics, but it's the same kind of spirit, you know. I'm going to explain absolutely everything and prove every theorem with my system. And then the female side is like, I call the female side symbolically, obviously, but it's like, no, here's a paradox that you can't solve. This is like Eve giving something to Adam.
And then he he admits, oh, I'm not God, you know, there's some things that I can't prove. My system is not is not complete. But now it's more complete than it was before, because now I know the limits of it. I know there's some things outside my system, but I can still know things about it because of this new addition to it's like a crown. The incompleteness theorem is a crown to mathematics. Really, you could you could say like that if you understand it symbolically. OK.
Quick question. So first clarification, I'm not a mathematician. My background is in math and physics. But yeah, I'm not a mathematician either. Just to be clear, because many people will be like, yeah, well, mathematicians research. Yeah. And this podcast is a different form of research than what's traditionally called research. OK, so just that. Number two, symbolically. Is it even possible for Adam to have lived in the Garden of Eden?
while Eve was exiled. Is that even possible? Would it have been possible for Adam to convene with God? Is it possible? Well, we don't know. We don't know that that if Adam would have not eaten, then Eve would have been exiled. We don't know that. That's I don't. It's not that I don't want to answer your question. It's just that that's it doesn't say that anywhere. It doesn't say.
that eve would have been exiled if adam let's say adam would have asked god hey god what do you think of this idea you know the snake just told my wife this she fell for it now i'm asking you what do you think and god is like no and he would have given some great mystery probably
Where he would have understood that it's not about God like not wanting you to grow or anything like that. It's not about that. We're not in competition, Adam. This is God speaking Adam. Let's say we're not in competition. Okay, calm down. You're in my image. We're not in competition. You're not my enemy. I'm not lying to you, you see. And then Adam might have said to Eve, no, this is a mistake. We're not going to eat that.
Maybe she would have, she already ate it, but maybe if Adam would have done that, then Eve would have been saved from this problem. Interesting. We don't know. We just don't know. The reason I'm asking you, I understand that you don't know and no one knows that these are hypotheticals, but the reason I was asking is I was wondering if there's something about Adam staying and Eve going or vice versa that would have contradicted the axioms that build your worldview. Okay. Yeah.
I'd have to think about that. I've never thought about that question because I'm still trying to understand all this function of renewal, you see. So if there's no Renewer, what happens? I don't know because it says in the Bible, God creates Adam, he names the animals, and then it says it's not good that he's alone. So there's a reason why Eve is there.
It's related to, it's related to sin too. She's supposed to be there to do the function of, that I was saying before, the function of kind of testing the limits of things and if Adam is making a mistake, trying to help him to improve and things like that, that's what I understand anyway, to renew himself, things like that.
Is it possible that there's no Eve? If there's no Eve, what happens? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it's not part of the story. I think Eve has to be there because it says so in the story. But what would happen if Eve ate the fruit and Adam didn't and then Eve was gone? I don't know. Maybe Adam
redeems her from exile. Maybe if he's in the garden, he has the power to redeem her. Maybe I'm just trying. I'm just making stuff up here. But if it makes sense, actually, what I'm saying, in the sense that there are stories about this, that it's not explicitly about Adam and Eve, but the story, the idea of redeeming something from exile and death is a pattern in the Bible.
I guess it does answer your question. I mean, Ruth kind of represents the fallen.
Feminine aspect and then she's redeemed by Boaz But she she she renews her to it's it's a two-sided deal, you know it's like she washes his feet in a way and he redeems her from exile and She represents she kind of represents what you're saying the Eve Eve fallen It if Adam is in the is in the homeland if Adam is in the garden he can redeem her out of exile. Oh
I guess that does answer your question. Maybe Eve stays in exile for a while and then eventually she gets saved. But the reason she can be saved is because there's someone that can save her that's not in the water. It's like if you're in the water, you need someone on a boat to take you out of the water. If everyone's in the water,
You can't get out of it, you see, but if there's a boat and then someone helps you out of the water, then you can get out. It's kind of a that kind of deal. If you're in exile and there's someone, someone can save you who's not in exile and take you out. But if everyone's in exile, it's like if everyone's drowning in the water, you can't you can't get out of it. You see what I'm saying? So to the Christian, is that the role Jesus served or serves? Oh, the role to us, to humanity? It's more than that, I would say it's maybe part of it. Yeah, yeah.
But it's more because he goes into death, you see. So he does go into death. So it's more than that. It's more than the person who stays in the garden then picks someone out because he actually goes down and comes out. So it's more, but it's part of it, I would say. It's an aspect of it. It's always hard when talking about Jesus because Jesus is like, it's like all the symbols in one. You see, so it's kind of like,
Anything you ask about Jesus, it's always hard to answer. It can be answered, but it's always going to be yes, yes, that's Jesus too, that's Jesus too. Sometimes it's more useful to use more specific stories that are not the whole incarnation of the whole truth. You see what I'm saying? As weird as that sounds, sometimes it's useful to use more specific stories that are just about one truth or just one aspect of it.
And then you can kind of focus on that. But when it's Jesus, it's like he has all of the patterns in him. So it would be easy for me to say, yes, yes, Jesus is everything, you know, but what is that? It's not that helpful for people who try to understand it from the outside, you know. So it's better to you. It's better for me to say something like Ruth is an example than to say Jesus is an example in a way. Because it's more specific and someone could go read that story and see what I'm talking about.
It's about a specific case of the female part being in exile, coming back to the land, and then being redeemed by someone who has remained in the land. When we started this conversation, I asked you who you are, and at that point you said that there was some aspect of yourself that's defined internally and then some that's external. I'm curious if the internal part of you, if the part that defines you from within, would call yourself a universalist,
I'm not a perennialist, if that means what I think. I'm a Christian. I'm partial to Orthodox religion. I'm partial to Catholicism too. It's hard for me. I am in exile myself right now.
And I'm going to get out of it. I will get out of it, but it's not that easy for me. I can't get into it, but I'm going to get out of it. And yeah, I'm definitely a Christian. That's for sure. Yeah, I'm in the process. That would be difficult to explain. Matthew, you and I are extremely similar. So I am similarly
philosophically homeless, metaphysically homeless, religiously homeless. You seem to have found more of your land than myself, at least religiously. So do you think the way to get out of it is to join an existing tradition? Is it going to be that you're going to plant your flag in Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxism or what have you? Sorry, Eastern Orthodoxy? Yeah.
That's what it is. Yes, the answer is yes. That's what I think. You have to choose. I'm not going to say you have to choose a tradition because I think some traditions are wrong. You have to choose a tradition that is true. If you choose a wrong tradition, you'll get errors and stuff like that.
If you're in the right tradition, you could get heirs to, obviously, that's some of what I encountered personally in my life. But I'm struggling for it. But that's what I am going to do. Yeah. So what's preventing you from planting your flag? This is something I literally can't talk about, because if I do, I become subversive, you see. So I can't do that. There's some questions that I have to answer.
That I'm going to answer with help of many people, but if I'm not going to talk about the problem that I can't solve, you see, and I'm not going to talk about these problems that can't be solved, what's the point? There's none. The only thing it does is cause divisions and subversions and things like that. It's totally not useful. So when I'm able to express what I'm troubled with,
Then I'll talk about it. I'm getting closer. It's related to Satan and that stuff. It's related to women, like a women in the sense of Eve and the symbolism of these things. Yes. I mean, if you want to know, basically what happened to me is I asked some questions at one point. I've always been interested in the Bible. I come from a Christian background. My parents are Christian.
So I've been reading the Bible for a long time and at one point I asked some questions, you know, and nobody could answer. And then I started thinking about it and then it caused me to fall into what we could describe as exile, which is a state of quest. You're on a quest, you know, quest like you have a question that you can't answer. And then
You know, people could just say, oh, why don't you just forget about that and, uh, just join my gang, you know, join my group. It's like, yeah, I could pretend. You see, would you like, would you want that? You want me to pretend that I'm agreeing with things that I don't agree just so I could be. Correct. You know, just so I could be righteous. No, I could do that, but I don't want to. I think it's not wrong that I don't join something that I
I'm in conflict with internally. I have to resolve these conflicts before I joined something. And I know that the things are correct. You see, I know that they are correct, but I also know that my questions that I have are not answered. You see, I'm going to say what that is, but those questions are not have been, I think, lost.
and i don't use that to criticize anyone it's nobody's fault you know i think it's part of the like mystery of the universe basically like the mystery of christianity that there's a question that's not answered and then this question will be answered eventually but right now it's not so someone could tell me well why you focus on that then why don't you focus on what we do know well that's too late
It's like eight from true knowledge of good and bad, basically at one point. Yes. And now I can pretend I didn't, but it's that's not how it works. You know, you eat something, it's in you. It's part of you. You can't just say. I'm going to forget it. It's inside you, you see, like if you if you if you eat something that you can't handle and you immediately vomit. That's that's a way to save yourself, but if it's
If it's been in you for a long time, you can't just vomit anymore. It's part of you now. So you have to deal with it, which is what I'm doing. You know, I'm going to, I'm close. Uh, and when I do, then I'll, I'll do it. What's, what's the right thing to do, which is to join a church, a specific church. I already know what, what it is for me and what I.
But I have to resolve these issues first. I have help from different people. But it's because you see how it's dangerous. It's easy. I don't want to be subversive. That's it. There's no reason for me to attack. I don't want to attack. Because when you have a question that's not answered, you can use it to attack. If you have a theory, a science, and I have a question that you can't answer with your science,
It's like I'm attacking your science, right? I'm attacking your knowledge.
There's no reason for me to do that. There's none.
So I'm just going to figure out what I'm figuring out. And then once I do that, then I'm going to probably talk about what I found, which is related. Like I said, it's related to this story of Tamar and it's related to certain stories in the Bible that gave me an insight a long time ago when I was about 20, 25, maybe around there. I'm not that good with time, but
I got I have received like knowledge and I and it was more a question than answer you see so and now yeah I can't pretend that I know I'm not concerned with these things so I have to deal with it so yeah I mean I mean basically I'm in exile right now that's what I am so I'm not I don't want anyone to do the mistake that I like to fall into the same trap as me so I can't talk about these certain issues just can't talk about until I have it
Good answer. So the answer might come from someone I talked to or could come from an authority in the church. So far it hasn't. So it's nobody's fault. I think it's my problem. It's like I, yeah, ate from true knowledge of good and bad. There's some questions that are meant to be answered later. Not now. And then I,
Delved into that too much. So now it's like I'm stuck in them certain kind of mud. I know how that feels. Yeah. Materialism is that I mean, the science, all the sciences based on materialism is an example of what I'm saying. So we ask questions. Okay. And these questions brought us away from the, the traditions of let's say the church into a whole other realm of
Things that are not talked about by the church. So the church doesn't talk about atoms and electrons and things like that. You see what I'm saying? So if you delve too much into these questions, you end up separating yourself from, you see, from, let's say, example, the church. Because it's not a priest's job to answer these questions. It's not the job of a priest to answer questions about electrons, you see. So you could say, oh,
I'm going to ask a priest to tell me my answers about what I'm trying to understand, but he doesn't know. It's not an insult to these authorities because it's not their job. When you ask questions, you end up. If you ask questions that there's no answer to, you end up in a kind of exile. That's kind of what happened to me. I'm not promoting it. I'm not telling people should do like me. Actually, no, don't.
So many people who watch this podcast do so because they're similarly wrestling with the contradictory or the unanswered, maybe even the in principle unanswerable, but we don't know what's unanswerable versus just unanswered.
And they take this seriously instead of a signal of nonsense. You know, many people take the opposite view and they say, well, if something's contradictory, then it's meaningless and just don't care about it. But some people also don't take that view. Now, I don't care about being galvanic and inflammatory for no reason, but I've similarly tasted something that I probably shouldn't have. And it nearly destroyed me.
In some ways it's strengthened me more than anything else. But in, in many ways it's left me adrift and broke me deeper than anything else. I'm being vague for similar reasons to you. You mentioned that you're managing to find your way out of it. How you don't have to talk about what brought you there, but what does that process look like? Um,
Well, there's different parts of it. One of one of it is to obviously try to answer the question that you have. OK, but how do you do that? Well, I do it in a certain way, which is it's not something that I necessarily recommend anyone else to. But it's like I call it I call it rumination, which is hard to explain, but it's
It's something where you have a question and you gradually work it down with experience of nature, I would say. It's about nature. Kind of like in science, how you get answers is to look at nature, right? It's not through deduction. It's by contact with nature, with reality. That's how you find it. Answers that are new. You want new things, you look at nature. You don't look at a book, right? You don't look at
What other people have already said, you look at reality and nature, which is what science does. You see, science is in the same dilemma as me, but not for the same reasons. Me, it's questions that are biblical. Whereas science is like just completely separate. Which one might say is better? Because you can be a scientist and still then say, I'm going to
be a Christian and all of this knowledge about science has nothing to do with religion. So I can just forget, but I don't have to see them as conflicted. So in a way it's worse, but well, it's not that true about science because the conclusions of science seem to differ greatly from the conclusions of the Bible. See, so it's not true what I'm saying. It does kind of put you in a dilemma or in exile. But yeah, it's like a slow process.
How do I reconcile myself with this whole process of trying to find answers, but not forcefully finding them? You see, it's also about just changing my attitude about things, not being arrogant. Like this is something, before there was some arrogance in my questioning, you know, some subversiveness and some forcefulness. And now there's not, I would say, not much.
Trying to get rid of that. That's probably what I have to do. Maybe at one point I'll just. Accept that there's no answer to what I'm. I don't think I don't think that's the correct path, though. I think I have to find the answer, but yeah, part of it is is attitude change. Like. Yeah, an attitude change and also a. Patient learn patients. And then it's like I used to be aggressive in my questioning
the Bible, let's say in religion and Christianity. I was aggressive, you see what I mean? Yes. Using it as a weapon against the system. Although the church is not really the system anymore, let's be honest. It's on the margins now, so it wasn't really that useful, in fact, because everyone's attacking the church anyway, from all around. So the church doesn't need one more attack from me.
Who sees myself as a Christian and that loves the church. Did you ever go through a militant atheist phase? No, no, no, no, because I know that I know God is real because I have experiences, you know, I don't care what anyone says. If when you have a spiritual experiences, nobody can convince you that there is no such thing.
Oh, I say in my mind, if someone says there's no such thing, I just say in my mind, well, you don't you have never experienced it. Don't know what to tell you. You know, it's like if you have no nose, you can't smell. Yeah. But if you don't have a nose and you tell me that there's no such thing as odor, I'm going to say, OK, sorry, you don't have a nose. I'm sorry for your condition of not having a nose. But I do have a nose and I do smell odors. And you can tell me that's not real. But I'm sorry. But it's not convincing to me. It's kind of the same thing. You know, if you have a
Spiritual insights and things like that then nobody can tell you that it's not real. It's just not gonna happen You know, so I never had that face of my life where I was like not believing in God or anything like that but I did have a phase where I was Critical very critical of the church cheese I should say because I came from a Protestant background so
I was critical of that, and then I was critical of Catholicism, and then I was critical of orthodoxy, you see. I went through the whole thing. So I think that's gone. I don't have that anymore. I'm not critical anymore. I just know that I'm the one who needs to struggle with these things. It's not anyone else's responsibility. I used to put it on everyone else, and now I'm putting it on myself. I'm seeing myself as a problem instead of everything else, which I think is what you have to do.
I'll get some help from different people, you know, I'm not on my own. Uh, but yeah, it's, you have to, I think have the right attitude. This is why I'm interested. Like I said, I'm interested in the subject of Satan and things like that is for personal reasons. It's like, I have to find out what is the proper way to criticize something without attacking it. It's like, I have to know that.
It's the only way I can kind of get out of my situation is to understand that distinction. And this is why it's like important to me personally that the function of Satan is was created by God, you see, because that's how I could get out of some of the dilemmas that I'm in. It's like I have to know that there's a holy version of this function, which is the criticism. You see, there's a holy it can be done in holiness, this criticism, because if it can't, then
Then yeah, then there's no way out of, there's no way out of it. If you fall, you can't come back unless you just completely abandon what you've discovered. You see, because you don't want to abandon it. Sometimes you discover beautiful things outside of the system and then they become part of you. And then you don't want to abandon these things. And if you find a way to.
Do it correctly. I think that's what you gotta do. You bring criticism. You bring questions in a good way. There's plenty of examples of this in the Bible. You see, I mean, there's so many examples. We're supposed to understand this stuff. There's example of criticism that's good. There's example of criticism that's bad. I mean, the story of Moses is a beautiful story where his sister of Moses, Miriam,
She criticizes Moses and she says she called him out because he had an Ethiopian, like a foreign wife. I think it's an Ethiopian wife. And then this is an example you see of criticism from his sister. And then it turns out that she was wrong. She wasn't doing it right.
And then God punished her, basically gave her plagues and she was exiled from the camp because she was plagued all of a sudden. So how do you know if you're doing it right? I think I'm starting to figure it out. Like in the case of Miriam, she criticizes Moses and then she says, I'm a prophet too. She like wants to be recognized as a prophet legitimately on her own. So she says, I'm a prophet.
And then she brings that along with the criticism of Moses, you see. So she had a will to power in what she was doing. She wanted to be a leader. She wanted to be recognized for her role as a prophet, like almost as a competition to Moses, you see. So that's why her criticism was wrong because she had a will to power. She wanted to be a leader. She wanted to lead. And that's why she was attacking Moses. That's the real reason.
So you see that's, you can have, you can know if it's correct or not. If you have a will to power, then you're, you're, you are an enemy, like a bad satan, a fallen state. You're, you're, you're a true enemy if you're trying to get power over something. So you criticize it to get power. So that's what I'm trying not to do. I'm trying, I don't have a will to power. I actually literally don't. Um, so I think it's possible for me to do it the right way, do the criticism correctly.
Because I'm not intending to attack or I'm not intending to start my own church, you see, start my own movement and then claim to be the real church, you know, or something like that. Claim to be, which is what many do, by the way, they have criticism and then they start their own movement and then they declare themselves the authentic real church. And then that's what you got to not do, you see, in my opinion. So let's.
Part of what I had to understand at one point, you got to get rid of all these will, will to power type of desires that we all have. I mean, it's not like, it's not like we don't have this. It's very human to want to be, to want to have power over something, you know. So I kind of try to get rid of that. I think I am actually. So I think this is part of my pro you asking, how do you, how do I do it? You know, my process, this is part of it. Get getting rid of that.
Will to power like you have to know what's your intentions when you criticize something. Am I trying to put myself above or am I just trying to help by asking a question that they don't have an answer to yet? And then maybe by my question, they will have an answer. And then maybe this answer was, will be very useful and very helpful for others, others who are not in the church actually.
Maybe it will be useful for them to help them to understand certain truths that are difficult, you know. So yeah, that's what I'm doing. So unless you're a universalist, which I don't imagine you are, wouldn't you, whatever church you end up adopting, wouldn't you think in your mind this is the real church? Otherwise, why would you join it? Yeah, you have to think it's the real church. Yeah.
That's part of the problem, isn't it? You have to join what you think is the real church. It is a problem. I don't know how to answer it. It's part of my problem, too. So you see, I don't know what to tell you. Yes. So that's part of my problem. I can't do it. I can't do it. I agree. I love the Catholic Church. I love the Orthodox Church. I love I love Protestants, too. Sorry, you know.
See? So you said you love the Catholic Church and you like the Orthodox Church as well, but you love Protestants, not Protestantism. Well, because there's so many branches. You know, I don't know what to call it. Protestant churches. I see. There's lots. There's different branches. So I don't love all of them because I don't know all of them. But the ones I do know, you know, it's not maybe there's some errors in there somewhere.
I still think they're Christians. Would you say that when you are attacking Christianity internally, that the attacks can come from a place of arrogance, but you would like it to come from a more functional place of humility? Maybe humility is not the right word, but a more functional place. Okay, firstly, is that what you would say? Yeah, a functional place in the sense that if I do this, if I
It's not if, it's doing it, it's not really my choice, but yeah, functional in the sense that it serves a purpose, it serves a higher purpose. To question things can serve a higher purpose. To criticize things can serve a higher purpose. So in that sense, functional, if that's what you mean. So yeah, you need humility to make your criticism functional instead of, and it's not just humility, it's also like,
Yeah, it is humility. But I mean, it's something to do with will to power. Something to do with that. It's like if you have any kind of will to power, then you're dangerous. What do you mean? You keep saying will to power. What do you mean by that? I mean, you want to have power. You want to be in a position of power. So let's say I have a criticism of the Catholic Church and then I say, you guys are wrong about this issue. And then
And I say, change your doctrine, let's say. I'm saying, change your doctrine about this issue. And then the Catholic Church is like, nope, sorry. We're not going to change our doctrine because we're right. Okay. And then I say, I'm going to start my own church. I would say that's a will to power. I would say, because I want to be in charge. I want to be a leader and I want my ideas to win. I want to win.
I think if you don't want to win, you have more chance of winning, especially within the church. If you're not trying to win, you can win. I think that's the story of St. Francis is all about that. I think this is an example of someone who did it correctly. St. Francis of Assisi, he did the right thing. He had criticisms of the church in his time and he wanted to renew it. So he didn't attack the church. He didn't
Make demands. There you go. That's, that's the way to not do it. Make demands. He just did his thing and he went closer to nature. This is what he did. You see, I was, I was talking about that before he found nature again, because usually when we lose certain things, it's cause we'll lose our connection with reality and with nature.
So we start thinking things that are kind of crazy and we're too strict about certain ideas that are actually not really important. And then one way to fix that is to go back to reality, go back to nature, and then you see what's real, what's important, what's real. The ideas that are actually important come out. They win. See, it's a competition of ideas. If you go back to nature, the real ideas will win the ideas that are real.
Because nature will force you to have the right ideas, you see. Because in living closer to nature or being closer to nature, the problems that you'll face are the real ones. And so your solutions and your ideas will have to match or correspond to these problems. And so nature is telling you this idea that you have is bogus. Forget it. This idea that you have is
Is important and this other idea that you had but you thought was not important is actually the most important because now you're faced with reality and nature is telling you what's What's important and not I'm not saying everything all the answers come from nature. I'm saying the impetus of renewal comes from nature because you're faced with it you're faced with real things and then some issues become less important others become more and then that's a way to
Make it come back to reality. So I think this is what st. Francis did actually with It's related to the idea of the poor poor to dealing with poor people because that's one way to go back to reality you mingle with poor poor people and then suddenly you're faced with real issues because they're facing real issues, you know, they're struggling and They have real problems. You see what I'm saying? It's like they don't have Champagne problems, you know, they have real problems. So
If something becomes overly rich or overly status quo-ish, you encounter poor people and you'll start to see what's real and what's not. I'm not saying all the answers come from there, but renewal does. Renewal comes from dealing and seeing nature. When I say poor people, it's because it's related to the idea of nature. It's because when you're poor,
You're kind of in a state of... Dealing with real problems. I don't know how else to say. You don't have champagne problems, you have real problems. So those are real. The others are not real. So if your whole life is based around fake problems,
Then you start making laws that don't make sense. And if your life is based around real problems, then the laws that you make are real, you know. So I think St. Francis did that. He went back to nature. He started, you know, talking to the animals as he himself says. And then this, he didn't make any demands. He didn't say you're wrong and stuff like that. Or maybe he did, but he didn't make any demands. And like he won. You could say it worked.
People who are listening may not be able to detect this, but if they're watching, they'll see that you're in nature, literally.
I think you're the only guest that I've spoken to in nature. Now, you also have a symbolic view. So is nature, when we think of nature with our modern eyes, we think of nature as trees and deer and dirt. Is that what nature is to you? And is that why you are currently in nature? The reason I'm currently in nature is not on purpose. So you can't even ask me why I'm here.
It's not by my own desire, you know, it's not like I choose. It's like my weird condition that I'm in. So, okay, but what do I mean by nature symbolically? It means more than, let's say, trees and things like that. It means that which is without a human will imposed upon it. That's what it means.
That which is there, if there's no plan, impose on it. That's my definition of nature. So nature can mean different things. Like in the Bible, the biggest, strongest example of nature is water. Water represents the most pure idea of nature because water doesn't have a will of its own. It just descends low. It doesn't stand, you know,
Standing means you're going towards a purpose, right? You're standing. It's like you're building something towards a purpose. When something goes down, it falls to the bottom. It means that it has no will of its own. It just flows into whatever happens, happens. That's nature. It doesn't mean there's no laws governing it, but it means there's no artificial law. There's no artificial law that governs this region. That's called nature, I would say.
That's how I define it. So in the Bible, the primordial nature, let's say, is the waters at the beginning because that's how it started. God created heaven and earth and then the earth was in this way. And the way it was is like it says in the Bible, darkness and water covered with water. So that's nature.
And you can understand the symbolism, by the way, when I say nature is about renewal. Well, you can understand how water is about renewal. That's easy to understand. We use water to clean ourselves and it's about definitely about renewal. So it connects these two things. When I say nature, that's what I mean, because you're faced with reality. You're faced with on. An artificial reality, a reality that's there before you impose your will upon it.
So that's what I mean by nature. I don't know if that helps, but. So a competition is an example of something that's trying to get close to nature. See, maybe that can help you understand what I mean by nature. Like if you do a competition, a real competition, let's say you do a martial arts competition. Different martial arts fight amongst each other. Let's say you do that kind of competition. Well, that's an example of trying to renew yourself. See?
Because you're doing a competition, it means you're not imposing, you're not deciding arbitrarily who's, who's the best or, and you're not also using any standard that you're imposing on it to say that this martial art is the best. You're letting them compete. Whoever wins in some sense, it's nature. It's nature that decide. Like when you do a competition, it's like you're, you're asking nature for, uh, to tell you what's the best. Right? Yes.
See, so that's an example of what I mean by nature. It's, it's happening now. This is a process happening. It's in martial arts. It is happening. This, this process of returning to nature and it's interesting. Actually this idea of like MMA is an example, you know, but what's interesting, you have to understand all the symbolism of it because when you do that, when you go into nature like that, you end up expressing certain patterns. Okay.
And one of the patterns that's being expressed in this MMA is it becomes a show, right? It becomes a show like a performance, almost theatrical. It's becoming more and more like WWE. I'm not saying the fights are fake, but the atmosphere in the, it's becoming like a show more. It's more becoming a show and less becoming a real competition. Let's just say like that. Okay. And that's part of it. It's part of returning to nature is.
Encountering this Dance or the show It becomes more like a show. Oh, I thought you're gonna say you you would like to remove the pomp and circumstance No, I'm just saying it's no I'm just saying that's what happens because if you don't have a I see a guiding principle and you're just pure competition, okay What is the reason to do that? Okay, so one of the reasons is
Renewal of your martial arts
Everyone thinks their martial arts is the best, you know, that's how you got it, which is a good thing. It's not bad. It's not a bad thing to do that. It's like the church. Yes, you have to think yours is the best. Otherwise, what the heck are you doing there? You know, it's just logical. So, yeah, if you think your martial arts are the best, but then at one point you're like, maybe not. I have to look in the mirror now and see if this is really true. So how do you do that? You do a competition against other martial arts. Now you're in competition.
Now let's say you end up figuring out that you're not good, actually. Other martial arts completely destroyed you. So now you're looking in the mirror and now you're like, oh, I thought I was this brilliant grandmaster. And now I look at reality. The competition is a mirror, you know. Now I see. Turns out.
i suck you know and actually this is just any fight it doesn't have to be mma you just do a fight is to do that that it could be within a martial arts too you think you're a grand master okay fight with this guy here and then you get beaten that's a mirror to your face you know you saw yourself as a grand master before and now you see that you're not you know you just got beaten that's reality that's nature you know telling you
What you think and what is real is not the same. So yes. And then see, see what I was saying before. This is interesting. It's coming, bringing me back to what I was saying before, how this MMA thing is an example of the. What I was saying, the process of renewal, like the role of Eve is this case, something like this, the competition, the tournament, she's in charge of the tournament case. It's a feminine thing. Actually, I know MMA guys won't like what I'm saying, but
The principle of it is feminine. It's like democracy. It's like democracy. You do a competition. I'm not going to say this guy is the king arbitrarily. I'm going to do a competition and this will determine the king and this will determine that which will renew. Okay, so if you have an ancient martial arts and you're so sure that you're the best, you do a tournament competition against other martial arts and then you
You either get defeated or not, whatever, it depends on the situation, but now what I was going to say is this too can be corrupted. This process can be corrupt, just like democracy can be corrupted. The thing that's supposed to stop corruption and supposed to renew can also be corrupt. So, for example, a fight can be fixed, right?
That's an example of a corruption of this process. A tournament can be fixed. It can be falsely arbitered. The person who is deciding a fight can be paid by one of the sides. I'm just giving examples of how this too can be corrupt. You see? So you got to be careful on both sides because you can create a fake tournament as well. You can create a tournament that's actually geared
towards preferential of certain martial arts, you see. You could do a tournament that's not neutral. Because this is a simulation of nature. It's not actual nature, you know. Actual nature doesn't like have preference of certain groups. But if you do a tournament, you're trying to emulate what nature does, you know. But you might get it wrong. You might do the rules in a certain way that advantages some martial arts, disadvantages others.
What if my martial arts is all about poking in the eye?
I found out the best way to defeat an opponent is to poke them in the eye. And now I'm doing MMA and you're telling me you're not allowed to poke in the eye. Okay, so you do have rules. You do have rules. It's not a real competition to determine which martial art is the best. But I understand why they have these rules. I mean, you can't have people
Dying you know losing their eyes and I understand but this I'm just saying this too can be corrupt and this too can lose its function which is a function of renewal and part of what happens to with this renewal stuff is Things get mixed up and see so martial arts get mixed wait. Sorry. What are the renewals here? Are you saying the fact that some things are off-limits and then the changing of the rules that's an example I'm saying of this process of
Returning to nature like a competition. Okay, that too can be corrupt. That's all I'm saying like this Compete a competition could have rules that are not I so got it that advantage some martial arts and not others That's what I'm saying. Like if you say you're not allowed to poke someone in the eye Well, what if my martial arts is all about poking people in the eye, you see? Yes. Yes or bring whatever knife you want Yeah, I can't win this tournament, but maybe in real life I would poke you in the eye and you'd be finished you see so
The competition has to be as neutral as it can be which is almost impossible because this is what I was saying is actually interesting because part of this is things happen when you do renewal that you don't necessarily want to happen but it's part of the process like mixing of things so it's called mixed martial arts because it makes the styles
Is that good? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe that's bad too. It couldn't be bad. It can be bad. It's not necessarily good. It can lead to be a worse type of martial arts if you mix certain things into it. Who knows? I mean, it's not maybe the future will know, but it could lead to losing some things that are actually very meaningful.
Because you try to just be the best at fighting, you know, there's other aspects to martial arts. It's not just about winning, you know, there's transmission of certain knowledge through forums and things. And that is not just about winning competition. But still, I'm not even criticizing the idea of doing a competition of different martial. I think this is you have to do this at one point, otherwise that all the different kinds of martial arts get big heads and they they think they're just better than everyone else. And then it's like, you got to have this confrontation.
But it becomes OK. So what happens is this is part of what happens just naturally. It becomes a show. Because you can do it to find out what's the best martial arts, but you can also lose that impetus, lose the reason why you were doing the competition in the first place. And then what happens is it becomes a show. It becomes a
The purpose for it, it has changed. Let's say it becomes about making money. Let's say, for example, then it doesn't serve its purpose anymore. It's not about determining the best martial arts. It's about making money. So all of a sudden, this is when maybe you start changing the rules in a way that's not the best.
Because you can't make money and you can't do a show if people get their eyes poked out on every fight, or if people break their legs on every fight, or if some people die literally in a fight, which is actually could actually probably happen often if they did let them loose. Some people would die. I'm betting. I mean, you can get kicked in the head and they're in the wrong way. You die. Okay. So this, they have to put in rules to not have this happen, but why? Because.
It's a show. It is a show. It's show business. It's not just a competition to determine the best martial arts. I'm saying it's like, I'm giving examples of how things can become corrupt of what their original function was. If the original function of this tournament was to determine the best martial art, then you got to be careful what you do. You got to be careful not to have this original impetus replaced by another one. Like, for example, to make a show.
Because making a show is not the same. And then you said symbolically this is related to the feminine how? It's related to the feminine in the sense that the role of the feminine is to renew forms of things to renew them. OK, renew them in the sense that you got a system. The system doesn't it just performs what it does. OK, it's like it has it has blind spots because it has some rules that it follows. Is renewing the same as updating? Yes.
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Updating, improving is hopefully improving. Updating is definitely a way to see it. Like renovation. Renovation is a way to say. Actually, I would imagine updating to be a subset of renewal. And the reason I say that is let's just take an analogy with
Windows or some specific program in Windows you then update it to the version 2.0 then you update it to 3.0 but then at some point that whole application may become obsolete and you have to transition to a new application and I imagine that transitioning to a new app would still be a renewal but it's not technically an update.
Yeah, it's still a renewal because it's basically the same system. Let's be honest. I mean, when they do, when they do new windows, it's still the same basic idea. It's still the same basic patterns. I mean, they could call it an update if they want it. Let's be honest. I mean, it might be, the coding might be changed, but the, the idea and the structures of windows hasn't changed that much since the, since a while, you know? So yeah, it's, so yeah, updating is a part of renewal. Another part is just cleaning.
Cleaning the errors that accumulate because systems accumulate errors, you know. And it's like cleaning that from the system, making sure that the system has not hardened into things that are not important or false. That's like more like washing with water. It's more like washing yourself, you know. And then the updating is improvement. You got to also try to improve systems, you know. Otherwise, what's the point?
So the improvement is what I call the crown. When I said it's a crown, I meant that, exactly that, improvement. Because improvement means going higher than I was before. So it's like you're giving a crown to something when you try to improve it. Now what about optimization? Yeah, that's part of it. Would that be more symbolically, in your view, masculine, feminine, neither? I'd say that's a little bit more masculine, actually.
Because you're trying to be efficient, you're trying to do the best that the system can do. I'd call that more masculine, actually. And the renewal is more about when a system doesn't look at itself anymore. And then it kind of doesn't... Yeah, it hardens itself into a position.
And if the position is wrong, that's the worst possible outcome, right? But even if it's just a hardening that never improves, at one point, you got to start improving. Otherwise, I mean, you don't want to stay the same forever. You want to improve. That should be obvious. But the thing is, it's always a dangerous process when you do that, when you try to. There's a dangerous element to all this, you know?
Like MMA is an example because who knows if that's going to be beneficial in the long term to all the different martial arts. I don't know. We'll know in the future. Maybe it will destroy all the martial arts through its mixing, you know, through its hybridization of martial arts. Maybe it will end up destroying them because I don't know. I'm just saying it's a possibility because maybe in each one of these branches of martial arts,
There are some part of it that is meant to preserve the branch, the form of it. And then if you get rid of that, then you think you've improved it, but maybe in the long run it'll just disappear. It'll just go away because you removed something important of it that was meant to preserve things. And then the impetus of preservation is now gone. And now it just becomes
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Addition to our martial arts it was a superficial one that for a moment there it looked like a really powerful way to defeat an opponent but it was only because it was new because when you fight you know you encounter new new new techniques you can get defeated by a new technique. But that doesn't mean it's better it's necessarily superior to you because if you just learn that technique it could take you a couple of weeks and then next time i fight you you better be careful cuz i'm done know i know that move that you did.
You see, so in the long run, sometimes you can get defeated by something new, but that doesn't mean it's a permanent. It doesn't mean permanently that you lost to this opponent. You have to have a few competitions before you could decide that because new things can surprise you. But as soon as you know them, it's like you're not going to fool me twice, you know. So the next time we fight, maybe you'll you'll get completely crushed because now I know your little trick, you know, your little movement.
Not everything new is good. Sometimes new things are just temporarily going to win. That's how you can see it. They're good for a moment. They win this moment. But then they're not going to win in the long term and other conditions will occur where your new addition will be like a weakness for you. And then you maybe you'll just lose completely and you'll be finished. So you got to be careful when you do this updating stuff. You can't just always see I'm trying to give them
I was saying how the renewal thing is not perfect either. You gotta be careful. There's many things to be careful about. It's not just because something is new and better for now that it will be useful in the long term. Sometimes you can add something that looks better now, but in the long term will cause all kinds of problems in ways that you don't even know because you haven't tested it yet. It hasn't been tested by time, let's say. So this is why tradition, you can't just always transform things. You gotta
There's a wisdom to the ancient knowledge. Why is it like this? Why do why our ancestors do this for so many hundreds and thousands of years? And then you come up with a new way of thinking. You don't just replace this ancient thing with this new idea, even though now in this moment, it seems better. You just got to be careful with that stuff, you know, because you end up you can end up destroying yourself with things like that, you know.
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Early in this conversation you mentioned Tamar and that plenty of your project is to make sense of Tamar as
An adumbration of Satan a connection to Satan. What was it? Yeah, well really it's at first it was about differentiating That the way what she does, which is a good Fruitful and useful criticism right of in that case is Judah. Okay, it's like Judah Did something wrong and then she's like there to renew his lineage basically us his lineage is dying off so
she's there to renew him but she does it in a really weird way where she like tricks him you know she disguises herself as a prostitute and she kind of tricks him but in that story so if i had let's say we don't want to get into too many details because like i could talk about this storage for hours so it's not a good idea so um let's say she does a renewal process of juda in a very deceptive way but it's presented as good so it tells you that there is a
aspect of this which is can be done correctly which is a tricking someone or something like that in a way where it's done correctly and it's not just tomorrow later I this is the first story that hit me but later I realized that that there's many stories like that in the Bible they're just a little bit more subtle Rebecca is an example there's many stories where there's a trick by the woman basically and the trick is there to
Renew something that was dying or dead or it's about resurrection really. So is the story of Ruth. Okay, so the story of Ruth is really about resurrecting a fallen lineage and the story of Tamar is also about that. So the idea is when you read the story it looks what she does looks almost evil. It looks like almost like I was saying kind of satanic, you know, but
This is the first story that hit me. I saw how similar this was to my idea of what Satan is. So I had to distinguish between Satan and Tamar, let's say. Why is it okay what she's doing and why is it not okay when we see this type of subversion in other systems?
So there's many answers. I'm obviously not going to get into it here, but that was the premise of my problem in the first place. But then later I found many, many answers in the Bible in so many places where it's about that problem of criticism, constructive criticism and updating, the idea of updating, the dangers of doing so, the dangers of updating, but also the characteristics of this whole process. I mean, there's interestingly, there's many stories that most, these are stories that people don't get, by the way. This is what I noticed.
Look, I'll give you just an example, let's say quickly, of a story that's really relevant to what we've been talking about recently. And it's a story that I don't see anyone understanding. It's the story of, it's Jacob that takes three branches from three species of trees and then he strips the bark and then he puts them in water. And then the sheep multiply when they drink that water. Okay. The water that was the three sticks in.
And then the idea is that he's making a flock for himself. He's making a new flock out of an old flock. But the symbolism that's there is very similar to the symbolism that we're talking about when I talk about MMA and such. He's taking three branches. This means in the case of MMA, that would be three styles of fighting, let's say three schools that are completely separate, really. And then he's removing the bark.
Making them like naked, you know going back to the essentials of it and then putting that in water mixing all that these essences of these different martial arts in water and then making the sheep drink that water and that renews it creates a new flock for him. Okay.
So it's just an example of a story in the Bible that not many people understand. But actually, if you understand certain patterns, it's really easy to understand. It's quite literally a description of what I was talking about with MMA. Different styles that are mixed together in a way to create something new. So it is about renewal. This is why it's about drinking water. Because drinking water is related to the grail in renewal. Drinking is about renewal. And it's just an example of a story that pretty much nobody understands. But it's actually quite obvious when you understand certain ideas.
And actually that story, if you know the story of Tamar, you can know that those two stories are almost the same because what Tamar does is she takes three sons of Judah. These are like three branches in a tree of descendants, offspring, and then she
Okay, now you said
Most people don't understand this story so how is it that you're able to understand it. What is it that makes you different that you're able to see the symbolic connections. And is it something that can be achieved by other people is this just a matter of orientation or. Openness or something else like gratitude and once you have that then.
More of the Bible or more of symbolism makes sense like what is it about you that allows you to see this when most other people don't? Why it starts it starts by admitting that you don't know that's the first that's the first thing that Not many people are willing to do admitting to yourself that I don't know what this means. Let's be honest. I don't know instead of wanting to look confident, let's say
And then talking about this thing that you don't know just so that you have some kind of authority over others. For example, I'm not saying that's what everyone does, but some people do that. Admitting that you don't know and then just that is already a start. And then I would say what I call, like I said before, rumination is the idea is because these are simple things that the reason we can't see them is because you don't have the right patterns in your mind to interpret reality. You're not using the right patterns.
And one way to get those patterns is to think more concretely, I would say, and think in terms of reality instead of abstractions. Because you see, when I give the example of MMA, it's kind of obvious that that's kind of what it's talking about, the story of Jacob with the three branches bringing them together and putting the essence in the water and then creating a new flock for himself. It's easy to understand what that means once you have the right
Patterns of Interpretation. I mean, a lot of it is in my book, a lot of these patterns, but they need to be used to look at reality. You see, you can't just study these patterns for themselves. They're supposed to be lenses through which you perceive reality. So me, in my mind, I have this idea of a tree. A tree represents specialization of species, something like that. I don't know in English the word. When you specialize, you know,
You create different branches. You specialize into some direction. This is what we do. I mean, this is how things grow. And so to me, because I'm using these patterns, now when I see him taking different branches and mixing them in water, it's all immediately obvious what it means. It's like I have the right categories, basically is what I'm saying. I have the right categories to understand some of these stories.
And in order to get the right categories, this is what's difficult. You have to first know that you don't know and then gradually try to see what their patterns are. What are the important patterns? They're in the Bible. I mean, you just see what's there. It tells you. If someone asks me, Haji, why do you take heaven and earth as a pattern of interpretation for the Bible? Well, it starts with that in the Bible.
God created heaven and earth. Boom. That tells you right there, this is the most important pattern that you should use to interpret these stories. But there's others. There's the tree. See, so there's lots of trees in the Bible because it means something. If you have these correct patterns, then you can read the story and interpret them correctly. But it takes time just to because it takes time to learn a language. It's basically learning a language. So so if you ask me what what's specific about me? Nothing, really. I just may be patient a little bit.
Maybe that's it, I guess. Patience. So would you then say that you don't actually start from the axiom of God created heaven and earth. You start from the axiom of the Bible is not wrong about itself for sure. And then you get that axiom from your experience because other people may just say, well, how do you know the Bible is not wrong? And then you mentioned that you had your own experience. Yeah, well, it's not about being right or wrong. It's about
It's telling you what to use to understand it. It's like a primer telling you what's the what. It's like a key, a cipher, you know, it's not about right or wrong. You want to understand this thing. You need this cipher. And then if you apply the cipher to this code, you understand it. It's like a code that you decode. It's not there's no right or wrong. It's about using the right lens to view something. And then when you look at it through that lens, it becomes obvious. It becomes meaningful. So is it right? Is it wrong? I mean, it's
You see what i'm saying there's different this is interesting yes it's yes so how does one know when one's using an interpretation that's correct versus an arbitrary one so in your cipher case you could actually apply any deciphering mechanism to some zip file on the computer and it could look like gibberish but then a human would have to look at it and then
Note oh that one is actually not gibberish that one has meaning to it but to the computer all of its gibberish there's no actual interpretation to the computer so it's not so clear so for you how do you know when you're interpreting something correctly or when one it's like someone else is interpreting something correctly versus well just falsely or arbitrarily i i could tell you my criteria i don't know if i'm right about it or not but uh
I used to two things i use reality and i use the bible so i use mostly let's say we're talking about how to understand the bible i i i look at a story and then i use a certain lens to interpret it okay if this same lens can be used to interpret many many many other stories. Then it's decent decent that i'm using if i just use just interpret this one specific story.
It doesn't help me to interpret anything else it's probably not really that important what i'm doing is probably not that significant but if i find a way to interpret one story and it applies to other stories that's a good sign that by with the same it's like science right i mean you find an equation that explains gravity.
You see a lot of different phenomenon in nature that's being explained by this formula here that you discovered, this equation that, let's say, describes gravity, let's say, an example. So you see a lot of different phenomena, celestial phenomena, phenomena on Earth that is now being described by this simple formula. That's how you know it's useful and it's valid. If it only explains one thing, who cares?
It's about generalizing your knowledge towards simple things. And these simple things can explain many, many, many things. So that's my criteria. So I kind of gave you an example here of I said I talk about trees. Just the fact that I can interpret the story of Jacob and putting the branches in the water and creating a new flock and the story of Tamar with exactly the same pattern. So here it's branches of a tree and here it's branches of a
Like a family tree, right? In the case of Judah, she mixes those branches in a way, she confuses them and she creates a new flaw. So just that is an example of using the same pattern to interpret two stories and all of a sudden these two stories make sense. But I mean, I have many, many such examples, you know, I'm giving two here, but that's my criteria if it explains a lot. So if you have a cipher in a text and it explains just part of the text, the cipher is probably not good.
Okay, so the counter argument would be threefold. One is that you have to have repeatability, falsifiability, and protect yourself against patterns being overfitted. So my understanding of what you're saying is, look, the overfittedness we can actually throw out because
You've established your template from a subset of the stories in the Bible and then you notice that they start to apply to others. It's not that you've looked at every single one and thought what pattern fits all of these at once. You can't even hold that all in your head. So you can't technically overfit the Bible. Am I correct so far or no? Well, there's many, many, many implications to these patterns. That's the thing. So it actually does.
can be used simple simple patterns can be used to explain a whole lot of stories but just like a few axioms can produce all of all of the theorems of mathematics it's not because something simple that doesn't have a lot of implications so some simple things have no implications some simple things have a lot of implications and i'm trying to use patterns that have a lot of implications and so because of that it can be used to interpret many many stories but like you said
There is a problem of imposing a pattern onto a story and being wrong, obviously. Yeah, you can always be wrong about when you try to understand something that's never going to go away. But my criteria is what I said. I mean, I'm not purposely trying to force, you know, that's like I have the same concern as you. I want to make sure I'm not forcing. Which is why it takes me a long time, because I'm trying to make sure that I'm not doing that, you see. Here's something that
I imagine is false. So when you were speaking, you were saying that the void is what is lacking in plan. Perhaps that's a sufficient condition, but not necessary. It doesn't matter. Heaven has to do with a plan and somehow standing upright has to do with a plan. And then I was thinking, and I didn't say this out loud, but I thought, okay, perhaps
If a plan is connected to us people and we are standing more upright, is that the symbolic reason we stand on two legs rather than an animal, which is close to the ground on fours? However, I then corrected myself in my head because I noticed trees behind you and a tree stands taller than us. But I don't imagine you would say that a tree has more plans than us. So was my analysis of well, was my symbolism of of us walking on two legs versus four off?
Or is there no symbolism to that? Is it just a brute fact of nature? Yeah, no, there's symbolism. I mean, there's something to understand in it for sure. I mean, you always have to, well, you're doing it, but I was going to say you always have to compare things in order to have meaning. So yeah, if you compare a dog to a human, you could say,
We're standing upright is kind of a sign of intelligence. It literally is. I mean, it's not just accidental. I think that humans are more intelligent. It does have something to do with the fact that we're we have this position. We're not looking at the ground all the time. You know, we're not the face down in the
In the grass, you know, it's, it's hard to be smart when you're faced down in the grass. Seriously. Um, so it does relate, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to become like kind of absurd in your application of it. Like, Oh, giraffes are therefore more intelligent than humans. No, I mean, you don't have to go into directions like that. I mean, you just use your, use your brain. I mean, that's the people who wrote the stories. Right. Create a certain syntax for you to understand certain things. You can always.
Create another narrative and then in that narrative things don't make sense. You see the people who wrote these stories are intelligent. They know what they want to communicate. So they they're not going to put a giraffe if they're trying to communicate to you like for example in this story of actually being really tall is not necessarily good in terms of the Bible the Giants.
Are taller than men, but they're seen as not superior to men. They're seen as fallen. So that kind of answers that question. But it's not necessarily just about being high or being low. It's about being properly connected, the high and the low. Some things are really high, but they can be falsely connected to reality. Like you can have a really high interpretation of reality, but it doesn't match with facts.
And so that falls apart. It's not solid. So it's not just about being high or low. You can have a really high plan but not being able to implement it. That's not good. So sometimes it's better to be small.
Is the symbolism something that can only be applied to stories or narratives, but not to say data such as what I just gave was an example of data. At least I would call it that. Humans walk on two legs, animals walk on four. Roughly speaking, I would consider that data and not a story. So is the reason for the failure of applying the planning having upright connection to what I just said, is it because what I said was data and not a story? I would not interpret it on data.
Honestly, I would interpret it only with stories because stories have a syntax. It's like words on their own don't have much meaning. If I say a ball, what's a ball? Am I talking about a rubber ball or a costume ball? It's just a word without syntax. It has a lot of weird meanings to it. The word ball doesn't mean much if you don't have a
something next to it to make sure that we know what we're saying it's kind of the same thing here it has meaning but it's not as precise if i say you know there's a ball what does that mean you don't know until i i add another word next to it you don't know until i put it in some kind of context so is it correct for me to if you say there's a ball over there is it correct for me to think that you're talking about a rubber ball maybe i shouldn't jump to conclusion so quickly it's kind of the same thing you know
The stories are meant to help you make sure that you have the proper interpretation by with syntax and with other symbols next to them to fortify a meaning kind of like a sentence in the English language. The words have vague meaning until you put them in a sentence. Now for the diagrams in your previous book, which I will place on spreen the language of creation. Are there any rules or diagrams in that book that you now reject or have updated?
And we'll be in your next book or at least as in your mind as updated. There's not much update updating. It's more like finding more implications. It's more like that because the patterns that I talk about are extremely general generalized, you know, they have a lot of implications. Like, for example, look, I'll give you a clear example of what I'm saying. I want to write a book about dreams. Okay.
And what I understand about dreams is already in my first book. It's like, I think it's chapter 65 or something. It's called the symbolism of dreams in exile or something like that, sleeping in exile. I'm not sure exactly the title, but all the patterns are there. So if someone wants to know what I'm going to talk about, let's say in a book, if I write, if I manage to write it about dreams, you just read that chapter, it's all there, but many implications.
see because real knowledge is about having principles and many examples to you know to make sense of it because our mind works with with examples right I mean if you don't have any implications of it it's kind of meaning it's kind of not real knowledge you have to have examples so if I write let's say a book about dreams which which is something I wanted to write even before I wrote my book actually this is something really I decided a long time ago I want to write a book about dreams but then I kind of gave up on the idea because I realized
I would need hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of examples of dreams in order to have enough material to kind of prove what I'm saying or to kind of have enough explanation of it. I think I actually say that in Chapter 65, I say it would take many, many examples to actually make sense of this pattern, which are dreams. So to answer your question, it's about going more into detail.
into the implications of the patterns that I talk about in my first book. So that's what I'm doing basically. I wouldn't change. There's one thing I might change, but I'm not sure because I'm still working on it. It's the true knowledge of good and bad that I'm still working on and always probably will be working on. I described it the way I understood it back then. I think I'm not wrong, but I need to work on the implications of it. I have to find many, many examples in the Bible.
of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, what does it mean? Because even though it doesn't say explicitly in the Bible, like this is about the tree of knowledge of good and bad, there's many examples of it. So if I have many examples, then I can kind of prove myself, you know, what I'm saying about what that is, the tree of knowledge of good and bad. So I've found since then many examples. Eventually, I would like to talk about just that, the true knowledge of good and bad, but that's way off right now in my mind. I have other things that I'm working on.
Is there a reason that in the Bible, God has a different relationship to heaven than he does to earth? Why does God have a different relationship to heaven than he does to earth? Well, in some way, he has the same relationship because it's both below him, you know, in a sense. They don't have the same function, but for God, they have a similar relationship in the sense that they're both
It's like if you say, you know, I have a hammer and a screwdriver, you know, I don't have the same relationship to these two things, but in a sense, I do have the same relationship. You know, it's not exactly the same, but they're both tools for me to use. They're not the same tool. I don't use them the same way. But in another sense, in a more general sense, I have the same relationship to these objects. They're both tools to me. I can explain what I mean from my layman understanding. God is identified in heaven.
But God is not identified on earth, at least if he is, it's in a finite time, whereas heaven, it's atemporal or infinite. Yeah. Okay. So what's the question? Why? So why? Because, because God is, when God is on earth, he has to be small and weak.
Otherwise, we die. That's the answer. Because it's too big, we can't handle it. So God has to manifest in a way that is not forceful to us, which God has to manifest in a meek way, in a small way. Like in the ark, let's say, God goes on top of the ark. It's all contained in a way so that it's not dangerous because otherwise,
This thing that created or this being that created the universe is dangerous, obviously, right? It's like infinite power, infinite knowledge. Let's say infinite information, infinite power. I don't want to see that. I don't want to see that. I don't want to. You see, I don't want to die. I'm going to die if I see that. So you don't want to see God and it is all his greatness. You want to see. You want to know essentially what God is. You don't want to see the full power and the full thing, you know.
I don't know if that makes sense, but to me it seems obvious like it's dangerous. God is dangerous. It's dangerous. Anything big is dangerous. Anything powerful is dangerous. So there you go. It's not just a case of God. You know, if I want to learn about a dinosaur, I don't want to see a gigantic dinosaur in front of me. I'd rather see a replica of a dinosaur in a museum or maybe a film about a dinosaur. You know, it's kind of that kind of thing, you know.
But in the case of God, it's the real presence of God still, but God is able to lower himself, make himself small, which says a lot about God in itself, that God is willing to do that, to limit himself for our knowledge. It says a lot about what God is, really. God is dangerous. Do you think that that's related to
Some of what you've been going through. I know we're tiptoeing around it, but hopefully you understand what I mean. If that's related. Yeah, I think I think I understand you had an experience that kind of like destroyed your mind or something like that, right? Is that what you mean? Like it kind of destroyed your ability to just. Maybe have a normal a normal life or normal thinking process. I don't know if that's what you mean, but.
I can understand, but I mean, you can have things through a direct experience, but you can also have them through deduction too. I mean, I would say me, I did have an experience when I was around 20. I'm not sure anymore the date between 20, 25. I had an experience of having like a direct kind of experience of spiritual things. And yeah, yeah. My book literally comes from that experience, but it took me 20 some years to
Make sense of it. So it is related. I would say, yeah, it's related. Um, cause I saw I had like a, I was in a really bad state of mind where I was, I had some bad experiences, you know, and I, and I was kind of blackpilled, you know, the ultimate, a really strong black pill there. And I was just not caring about anything, really just wanted to not do anything. And then, uh,
I had this weird experience where I saw something. I think God saved me basically from that black pill. I guess it saved me. I saw something. My book comes from that. It comes from that vision that I had. It didn't break me at all when it happened. It saved me, I would say. I was really black-pilled at that time.
It couldn't break me more than I already was in my mind it's not in my mind, but it's like more in my spirit or in my My outlook let's say on reality so and then it kind of saved me I would say by showing me some truths like really deep truths about reality and That's exactly where my book comes from is that is that insight that I got and then it
But it didn't make any sense back then. It probably wouldn't make sense. If I were to describe my kind of vision, I'm sure it would not make sense. Well, maybe now it would, because if somebody read my book, they will see. If I were to describe it, they would see, oh, that's your book, isn't it? That's a really condensed version of everything you talk about in your book.
Yeah, it is related. Yeah. Okay. I hadn't, I hadn't thought about it like that, but now that you kind of mentioned it, I realize it is because I had a weird experience. I kind of was too much because when you have a weird vision or an experience, I think it's not necessarily good. It means something like you need something that you can't handle, but you need it and you're going to see it. And it's like, it's not good. It means you
You're not ready to receive logically or consistently this truth and then you have to fix it. After that, you have to make sense of what you saw in a way that is not dangerous or crazy. That's why it's not a good idea to talk about this thing with other people because if it doesn't make sense to you, you don't describe it because it's going to sound even more crazy to someone else.
So that's kind of what I did. Instead of going crazy and talking about this experience, I just took 20 years to figure it out and then took about four or five years to write it down. And then I also anchored it in the Bible. That helped me too. It helped me to not go off into weird places, to just use the Bible as a kind of frame to put that in.
You see what I'm saying? Like I made it fit into the stories instead of just letting it go wherever. And that kind of helped me. It's kind of, yeah, what you were saying a little bit, you see something big, it's dangerous, but you put it in a box, you know, you put it in a containment so that it's not dangerous. So I guess my book is a containment for an experience that I had. Yeah. It's funny that I never thought about it like that. Is that, is it something, is it similar to something that you've experienced or?
I haven't told you what I saw, but I mean, I'm not going to. Well, in some ways you shouldn't and you don't need to know. For me, much of what you say resonates outside of the last part of holding it back or not speaking about it to other people. Actually, in part, what saved me is when I speak about it to some people privately, I don't think I've ever said what it is publicly.
And I don't want to, I don't know if I should. But anyhow, I had to speak about it privately. It took me maybe months before I could, and it's still been a few years and I'm not fully recovered. But I know the more I speak about it, the less I'm shattered. Yeah, it makes sense.
It doesn't make sense that you in talking about it to certain people, I mean, you probably choose. You see, it's not that you choose who you tell. It's a way to contain it. You know, when you choose, you choose who you tell you to people you trust. It is a way to contain it, I would say. It's a way to externalize it, but still contain it. And in a way, you're telling people that you trust this thing that you experience. Does that make sense? Like it's a similar process here.
You're not externalizing it totally. You're externalizing it in something that makes sense, in someone that you trust probably. You're not telling a perfect stranger. I'm guessing. What is it that you disagree metaphysically with Jonathan about, if anything? I don't necessarily disagree with what he's saying. I just specialize in a certain way.
In a different way. So it's not that I disagree. It's that I see certain things that he doesn't, and he probably sees things that I don't. But it's like, I know what I see that he doesn't. I don't know what he sees that I don't. Obviously, right? I mean, it's logical. But I mean, I know that when he talks about certain subjects, I see that I see it, understand something different than him. And that I don't even disagree with what he's saying. It's just I see another aspect of it.
I see like sometimes he sees only a negative aspect to certain thing and I see some positive aspect to it. That's an example. I see. Has it ever been the opposite? Probably. Yeah, probably. It's hard for me to know his side of it because if I see something only negatively and he sees it positively, I can't tell. It's hard to tell when it's not you, but I think he obviously he's more.
An agreement with the whole idea of authority and maybe a little bit more the rigidity of certain traditions, you know, that's not like a metaphysical thing. It's just almost a practical application of things. So I would say I think I don't disagree with them actually on the ideas.
I could disagree with what he's doing, but it's not even a disagreement. It's more like, I wouldn't do that. You see? It's not the same as a disagreement because it's like, I don't want everyone to be like me. I don't expect others to be like me. So sometimes I see someone doing something and my reaction is just, well, I wouldn't say it like that or I wouldn't do it like that. But you'd say it like that if you want. You see what I'm saying? It's not really a disagreement. It's more like a,
Is there a question that you don't want to know the answer to?
I'm probably not answering your question but to me it is an answer because some things are meant to be secret I think and some things are meant to be public and sometimes some people want to say the secret things publicly and that doesn't and these things change over time too at one point in time depending on certain events or certain circumstances some secret things can become public
But before that, they should remain secret. That's how I see it. So if you say, are there things you don't want to know? If I'm not ready to understand something, no, I don't want to hear it. That's my assessment of it. But I can't know if I'm ready to hear something, so I can't know. See, that's part of the problem. It's like if you don't know what you can't handle, you can figure it out at one point by experience.
It's probably because you had some contact with that thing and you already saw that you can handle it. So then it's like no more. But on the outset, you don't know what you can handle and what you can't handle. But I would say I don't want to know things that I can't handle. If that answers your question. It's not anything specific. It's just in general. I don't want to see or know something that will not be helpful for me. I'd rather not know.
Now, before we end, you'd mentioned maybe 10, 20 minutes ago, you said, it's not in my mind. Maybe it's in my spirit. And then you corrected yourself and said something about outlook. So what is the difference between your mind, your spirit and your outlook? Is one most important of these three? Well, I mean, when I say my mind, I usually mean my ideas, what I used to see the world with my ideas.
In the ideas, in the real sense of the word idea, where it's like a principle that you use to understand reality. And my spirit, I guess that's the reason I changed it because I don't like that word because it's been overused and it's kind of become meaningless. It's a little bit overused, you know? Yeah. And then I said my outlook because it was more precise how I. The way I see things, but not necessarily just in terms of my ideas, but just in terms of my opinions and my
It's like there's things that I like and things that I don't like, but it's not based on my ideas. It's just based on my preferences, you know. So I don't have the same outlook as other people. I can have the same ideas as someone else, but doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to do everything in the same way. So it's like I have a different character. I'm more, let's say, introverted. So there's some things that to me seem like not a good idea, certain things that people do. It's not a good idea, but I don't think that
They should listen to me. It's just my opinion based on my preferences. You see what I'm saying? Not everything is about, you know, I don't expect everyone to be the same. That's what I'm saying. It's like you can have preferences of certain ideas and certain ways of being. You don't have to impose your will upon everyone, you know, like a crazy person. You can let other people think differently than you without having to say that it's an error. But in some cases,
This is so tricky in some cases it is so tricky depends what it is depends what level of the. The idea or the act is you know the reason i say that is because look if we want to say or you want to say one wants to say. There is a real church like a real tradition or a real religion whatever it may be there's one true one.
Not that there's one true one for you or there's one true one subjectively. No, no, there's one true one objectively. But at the same time, we want to say, well, people should be thinking differently or they're made differently or what have you. Then it sounds like one is saying there's one single path, but then another is saying there are multiple paths. So is it possible for you to retain that? Look, the church that you Matthew will eventually join is the right one.
It is the correct one, not just a correct one, yet at the same time, it's not for other people. Can you hold both of those in your head or do you think, no, one of those statements is correct only? I don't know. I don't know what's good for other people. It's not my concern, really. I mean, if I...
It's like when people talk about other religions like I don't want to talk about other religions I don't want to talk about the other religions because it doesn't concern me really but I understand if you're looking at it from completely out of these religions You might want to look at each one and be like why don't you guys just all get along or something like that? Or like why don't you just admit that you're all saying something similar? I don't I think eventually
There'll be a resolution to these kinds of questions, but it's definitely not me who's going to do it. Maybe someday some wise person will have all the answers and maybe even reconcile different things like that. It's certainly not me, so it's like you can ask me my opinion. There's degrees to things too. Why does it have to be all or nothing?
There's certain truths in certain places and there's certain other truths in other places. Sometimes they don't even contradict. They're just talking about very different things. Sometimes one is not talking about this aspect and the other one is only talking about this aspect. So are they both true? Are they both false? Well, sometimes they're both true. Sometimes they contradict each other. You know what I'm saying? It's not like an easy answer. It's a complicated subject because these are complex
These are complex beings, you know, a religion is not a simple thing. So it's like, there's some truth that are common, there's some truth that are not. So who, which one has the full truth? I think it's Christianity. I'm sure of that, but I mean, someone can argue with me if they want. I'm not, I don't know. I didn't study the other religions too. You see, that's, that's part of the problem too. Sometimes we want to like act like we know.
Other things i mean i could barely it i'm working all my life to understand let's say one book of the bible or just what story in the bible and i'm seeing all this implication all the depth to it and then if you ask me what do you think of this other religion i don't know honestly you see what i'm saying it's like i could pretend like i know or i could play team sports and just say my team is good
Your team because it's my team. It's my team could do that, but it's not useful. It's like, I don't know. It's like sometimes people ask me, what do you think of Buddhism or something? My answer actually is just, I don't know. I have some of the depth of the Bible, but this depth that I see in the Bible is enough to tell me that I should be careful about what I say about other
I don't know. I understand. If I can extract so much knowledge from this one story or this one little thing in the Bible, how can I think that I'm going to pronounce myself on these other things, these foreign things that I don't know? I can't really. But I mean, if I played team sports, I could say my team is right, the other team is wrong. This is what people do. And I don't even think it's wrong, really. Because like you said, if you're in your team,
You gotta think your team is the team, you know, otherwise you're kind of stuck. You're stuck in nowhere land. You see what I'm saying? It's like, if you're stuck in nowhere land, you're not better off than if you're in one place or in one branch of, let's say, Christianity. Like me, I'm not better off because I'm stuck. I think I'm worse off.
So it's not like I'm being more clever. I'm more clever than the Catholic because I'm not choosing this. I don't think that at all. I think the opposite. I think there's something wrong with me. It's not that I'm better. It's that I'm worse. But I understand your question. It's hard. I read books like everyone. I read books about Buddhism. I read books about Islam. I read books about Judaism and all that. So what? I don't know almost anything about any of those things.
as compared to the level that you can get from just studying something specific, you know? But I understand your dilemma. You're in the same dilemma as me, really, I can see. It's like a dilemma of if I choose one path, then I miss all the other paths and I get it. It's not. I'm in the same mud as you, stuck in the same mud, I guess. Matthew.
Thank you. Thank you for spending some three hours with me. Yeah, it was it was fun. Hi there, Kurt here. If you'd like more content from theories of everything and the very best listening experience, then be sure to check out my sub stack at Kurt Jai Mungle dot org. Some of the top perks are that every week you get brand new episodes ahead of time.
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▶ View Full JSON Data (Word-Level Timestamps)
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"text": " Matthew, how do you interpret a question like, who are you? Are you defined relationally? Do you define yourself? Do others define you or is it some combination? Yeah, it's some combination for sure. Yeah, it's a combination of other people telling you what you are and you agreeing to it or and also sometimes you defining yourself. It's all of those things."
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"text": " I wouldn't want to live in a world where I'm just defined by others and I wouldn't want to live in a world where it's just me that decides because when you're defined by others it comes with added stuff that you don't necessarily wouldn't be able to give yourself. So if you have a function in society it doesn't come from you and the fact that it doesn't come from you is what gives it more than you. So if you're"
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"text": " If you're a police officer, it's somebody else that said that to you. It's not you. If it's you, then you're a criminal. I mean, if you decide on your own that you're going to do the duties of a police officer, but you're actually not have not been appointed in that way, then basically you're a criminal. You know, you're just using force to impose your own personal will on others. So that's"
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"text": " Just an example, but everything is like that. You receive an identity from others, from society or from above, let's say. But you have to agree. Obviously you have to agree. If you don't agree, then you struggle with it. I mean, you're going to receive an identity that you don't agree with. You just have to deal with it. I guess you figure out what you do with that. You don't have to accept it either. So who are you, Matthew? Who am I?"
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"text": " Well, I'm a human being for starters. Hopefully. I mean, I could define myself in many ways. I'm part of a country called Canada and part of a province called Quebec. And what I do is I think a lot and I write. So I try to write, at least I would like to write more. So yeah, if I would define myself in terms of what I do, I would say,"
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"text": " I think a lot and I try as much as I can to have it be useful to others and also to have it correspond to reality and to not just be some ideas that I personally have. So it's kind of related to the question you just asked. I mean, I'm not trying to understand things just for myself. I'm trying to understand things for everyone. And obviously that includes myself. So I'm interested in, let's say, nature."
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"text": " I want to understand reality. That's really what I do most of the time, trying to understand how things, not necessarily how things work, but what they mean mostly. I used to be more interested in how things worked, kind of like physics and chemistry, things like that. I still am to some degree interested in that stuff, but I kind of switched a little bit. At one point I realized that what I really wanted to know was what it's all about, like what it means, what's the significance of"
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"text": " Um, I guess where it comes from is probably just my basic personality. I mean, I'm not, um, if I compare it to other things that could be doing, let's say, I mean, I could, I wouldn't be, uh, I wouldn't be a fireman or a police officer or anything like that. You see, you have to compare it to make sense of it. Uh, I'm not a,"
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"text": " I do things, but usually when I do things, it's for myself, you see? So that's why I'm comparing it to people who do things for others, like what I mentioned is a good example, you know, people who have a service, who work in service things. It's not that I don't care about other people, it's that my actions are usually reserved for things that are for me and my thoughts are usually reserved for"
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"text": " People who are watching this podcast will be familiar with your brother as I've spoken to him a few times. How does your project differ from Jonathan's?"
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"text": " Well, I think it's actually quite different really. Although we say similar things, but that probably just comes from the fact that a lot of what we say was developed kind of in conversation with each other. But now what I'm working on is kind of very different from him. I kind of took a different path at one point and basically if I could explain it in a way, he's kind of"
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"text": " Teaching what I do know which is quite different actually. So it's like I'm doing kind of a self-criticism, you know Whereas he's more I Don't want to say preaching but it's speaking out to others, you know, which is completely different because What I do is a kind of internal let's say an internal criticism. So when I think about let's say the Bible I"
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"text": " I think of it in a way where I'm doubting the interpretation that I already have. This is not what you do in public. You don't do this in public. This part of doubting your own knowledge is the part that you do in private, basically. You're trying to improve your own understanding. My work is more concerned with that than it is to"
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"text": " Yeah, to transmit something that I already know. So that's a big difference. And it gives very different results, too. It's like, I don't understand the same things as my brother. I have a very different understanding. And it's not necessarily that it contradicts. It's more like I'm not concerned with the same questions than he is. See, most of my concern is about understanding things that we don't. You see, so."
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"text": " The border of making sense. So the subjects I'm usually concerned with are kind of controversial in a way, which is why sometimes I don't talk about what I'm doing because I'm still working it out. You don't want to cause scandals and things like that for no reason. If you don't know what you're talking about, you don't talk about it. But now I'm sorry. I've been doing this for a while, many years now, where I'm trying to understand certain questions and I'm getting some"
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"text": " Definite answers so eventually I'm gonna talk about like I could give you an example most of the I'm interested in things like for example that this is I've been doing this for many years. Let's say since I was 20 or some something I started thinking about this The story for example of the fall that's it's always been interesting to me and"
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"text": " What are the implications of that? The story that really got me was the story of Tamar. I talk often about that. It's a very strange story in the Bible. It's really iffy. If you look at the character of this woman and what she does is almost like what Satan would do in a system. She does something very"
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"text": " Um, let's say subversive in a way, but she's doing it in the, in the correct way, according to the story. So see, this is like a borderline story, really. It's not the usual thing that's supposed to happen. It's something that happened in a strange way, but they gave something good. This is the kind of thing that interests me. So basically one of the subjects that doesn't just mean, for example, is, is there a question of Satan? Let's say this is a subject most people kind of."
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"text": " Don't want to talk about but I'm interested in this I've been thinking about the what is the nature of this this pattern of Satan and what what is it what is its use like what is its meaning in the Bible and what is that all about why is there such a thing you know and I've come come up with some pretty good answers I think"
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"text": " In his function, which is a function that God created, and Satan as a fallen entity, you see? So when people talk about Satan, usually they talk about only the fallen entity that we sometimes call Satan. It's not necessarily that there's just one, but it's like a function. It's like if you're a cop, you know, you could be a fallen cop, you could be a fallen, you know, you could be corrupt, but you could also not be corrupt. What's the difference there between a fallen cop and a non-fallen cop and a good cop versus bad cop?"
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"text": " Using the powers that are given to him. So basically like what's a fallen entity? We think of it like this. We say you receive certain powers. Okay certain powers from Let's say let's use the example of a police officer to make it concrete here You receive some powers from the government, right? You receive some abilities you get training to that's part of it. You have abilities and you have Powers that yeah that are given to you now if you use those"
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"text": " And if you go outside of that, then you're corrupt. I mean, a simple example, if you're an investigator, you can use your powers and your skills of investigation and your tools that were given to you also to investigate a crime. But if you start using these powers to investigate, let's say your neighbor, just because you don't like him or because"
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"text": " You want to mess with them or something like that. You know, you have a personal reason why you're doing this to your neighbor, to someone you don't like. You could use also your skills of a police officer to mess with somebody else or to harm him. Well, obviously that's an example of a corrupt official, right? So this would be an example of the fallen police officer who's using his powers not in correspondence to his function. So it's like the idea is you get powers and you get laws."
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"text": " for those powers that tell you how to use them. Sometimes people get the powers but they don't follow the laws and this is in every sphere you can get certain abilities and if you don't use them like you're supposed to, well then you're fallen. So what I'm saying basically is that what's called Satan in the Bible, what we usually people talk about is the fallen version of Satan, you see? So it's kind of important to understand the difference because"
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"text": " The first function, the original function is illegitimate, is God created. So if it's not fallen, then it's not fallen, you know? When I hear fallen, I think of evil. So I can think of a guitar. Let's not think of a cop. Just for this example, a guitar can be a good guitar or bad guitar. We could hear that at a guitar shop and a bad guitar is one that sounds horrible. But we wouldn't think of the guitar as a fallen guitar."
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"text": " Unless the guitar autonomously is bashing people over the head and knows that it's doing that and wants to do that. Yeah. So am I correct or incorrect in thinking of fallen as a synonym for evil? It can be both. I mean, like you give an example of an entity that doesn't have a will of its own, like a guitar, let's say. But if it's broken, it's still bad. It's not evil in the sense that there's no intent behind it."
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"text": " But it's still fallen in the sense that it's not working anymore as it should. So you could see it both ways. I mean, obviously an evil cop is an example of a bad cop, right? But a bad cop might not be evil. He might just need a little help honing his skills or something, but it's not necessarily like an irredeemable phenomenon. Like a guitar, you could be fixed, but there's different levels of it, obviously. So you could be completely off."
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"text": " Are you can be just a little off it's the question of degrees if you're at a point where you convince yourself that you're like let's say you're. You're an official and you've convinced yourself that all the bad things you're doing are legitimate for some reason you can miss yourself that some people do by the way i mean."
},
{
"end_time": 1026.032,
"index": 37,
"start_time": 997.5,
"text": " Some people say things like, um, there's no way to make it if you're not corrupt, you know, so that's it. That's like a, a rationalization of your, of your corruption. Uh, if I'm not corrupt, if I'm not, let's say politician, if I'm not a corrupt politician, if I don't lie, if I don't take bribes, then I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to be a politician because somebody else is going to do the bribes and get the bribes and somebody else is going to be corrupt. And so therefore I can never be a politician. If I'm not corrupt, that would be an example of someone who"
},
{
"end_time": 1043.985,
"index": 38,
"start_time": 1026.578,
"text": " Completely justifies his corruption and that's pretty irredeemable. I mean, that's pretty you're pretty far down the road when you start talking like that It's like if you're an athlete if I don't cheat The other guy will cheat so I gotta cheat see that's an example. So of"
},
{
"end_time": 1066.305,
"index": 39,
"start_time": 1044.633,
"text": " I heard someone say recently that money corrupts and then the person who they were speaking to said no money won't corrupt me and then the initial person who said that money corrupt said well it's just a matter of how much."
},
{
"end_time": 1094.309,
"index": 40,
"start_time": 1066.647,
"text": " You can say money doesn't corrupt you, but if I gave you a billion dollars that would corrupt you. And even if you say no, then then maybe your number is five million. We all have that number. Okay. That's what the person said. Do you think even that mind frame is a fall in mind frame or do you think that's correct? It's a little fallen. I would say it's because he's already justified, justified the corruption in a rational way, but really it's not true. I mean,"
},
{
"end_time": 1112.824,
"index": 41,
"start_time": 1095.06,
"text": " It can be poor. You can accept you're going to be poor. There you go. That's the answer to that. I mean, it's not true. Some people are poor. Many people are poor. So see, what do you do about that? I mean, you could say it's because it was never offered the opportunity, but that's just speculation. You don't know. Nobody knows that. So it's not an argument."
},
{
"end_time": 1140.316,
"index": 42,
"start_time": 1113.933,
"text": " Okay, let me say it from the other person's point of view. I'll pretend to be that person. I'm saying to you, money corrupts. You're saying, Kurt, money won't corrupt me. And I say, well, it's just a matter of degree. So maybe $10 won't corrupt you. But $1 million, will you say I still won't be corrupted? You could be correct. Then I say, no, then your number is 2 billion, something like that, like there is some number. Now, is that mind frame my mind frame in this hypothetical? Is that"
},
{
"end_time": 1167.381,
"index": 43,
"start_time": 1140.52,
"text": " A corrupted mind frame itself. Yeah, yeah, I say yes already. Yeah. Yes, that is corrupt. I think that's a little bit of corruption because you're you're justifying corruption. You're you're like almost saying there's no other way for it to happen than to be corrupt. So, I mean, that's that's a rationalization of it. I mean, speak for I would say speak for yourself to the person who would say that. Why are you speaking for others?"
},
{
"end_time": 1197.637,
"index": 44,
"start_time": 1167.91,
"text": " So I imagine this functional criticism, internal criticism, there's a functional and there's a fallen version of it. The functional one is the positive side to Satan. I think you were going to get something like that. So I imagine that would be blasphemous to most people to even think of a non fallen Satan."
},
{
"end_time": 1227.381,
"index": 45,
"start_time": 1198.251,
"text": " Furthermore, since you, much like myself, we focus on internal criticism and we think and we think and we think, do you then see yourself as a Satanist in a sense, but the functional Satanist? Yeah, no, you see, for the reason you said, I would never say that because it's because everyone thinks of Satan as fallen. So I would not use that term because I'm not trying to be subversive for like just for the heck of it, you know, I would rather say something less"
},
{
"end_time": 1256.442,
"index": 46,
"start_time": 1228.643,
"text": " Just a moment. Don't go anywhere. Hey, I see you inching away."
},
{
"end_time": 1280.162,
"index": 47,
"start_time": 1256.92,
"text": " Don't be like the economy, instead read the economist. I thought all the economist was was something that CEOs read to stay up to date on world trends. And that's true, but that's not only true. What I found more than useful for myself personally is their coverage of math, physics, philosophy, and AI, especially how something is perceived by other countries and how it may impact markets."
},
{
"end_time": 1307.312,
"index": 48,
"start_time": 1280.162,
"text": " For instance the economist had an interview with some of the people behind deep seek the week deep seek was launched no one else had that another example is the economist has this fantastic article on the recent dark energy data which surpasses even scientific americans coverage in my opinion. I also noticed the economist has a new dedicated section on a i'm glad because artificial intelligence is one of the most impactful technologies that directly influences theories of everything."
},
{
"end_time": 1323.183,
"index": 49,
"start_time": 1307.637,
"text": " Something else I love, since I have ADHD, is that they allow you to listen to articles and 2x speed it and it's from an actual person, not a dubbed voice. The British accents are a bonus. Yesterday I listened to this article on standing desks for instance."
},
{
"end_time": 1341.152,
"index": 50,
"start_time": 1323.439,
"text": " Links to all of these will be in the description of course. Now the economist's commitment to rigorous journalism means that you get a clear picture of the world's most significant developments. I am personally interested in the more scientific ones like this one on extending life via mitochondrial transplants which creates actually a new field of medicine."
},
{
"end_time": 1363.234,
"index": 51,
"start_time": 1341.152,
"text": " Something that would make Michael Levin proud. The Economist also covers culture, finance and economics, business, international affairs, Britain, Europe, the Middle East, Africa, China, Asia, the Americas, and of course the USA. Whether it's the latest in scientific innovation or the shifting landscape of global politics, The Economist provides comprehensive coverage"
},
{
"end_time": 1390.128,
"index": 52,
"start_time": 1363.234,
"text": " It goes far beyond just headlines. Look, if you're passionate about expanding your knowledge and gaining a new understanding, a deeper one of the forces that shape our world, then I highly recommend subscribing to The Economist. I subscribe to them and it's an investment into my, into your intellectual growth. It's one that you won't regret. As a listener of this podcast, you'll get a special 20% off discount. Now you can enjoy The Economist and all it has to offer."
},
{
"end_time": 1413.217,
"index": 53,
"start_time": 1390.384,
"text": " Did God create? You see, it's a problem to say that Satan is corrupt per se too because God created Satan."
},
{
"end_time": 1437.056,
"index": 54,
"start_time": 1413.831,
"text": " okay so if you say that he's corrupt you're kind of attributing it to god then you know you're kind of attributing a mistake to god but it's better to think and more concordant with let's say the bible in tradition that the function was created was perfect and there's an element of free will to the universe you know things can can go wrong"
},
{
"end_time": 1463.029,
"index": 55,
"start_time": 1437.398,
"text": " And, uh, then if you don't follow, follow the, what you're supposed to, then yeah, you're, you're corrupt, but the function itself is not corrupt. That's what I think. Um, I mean, look, I'll give you even an example. There's in the Bible, there's not many places it talks about Satan in the Bible, but one place that it clearly does is the book of Job. And in the book of Job, it doesn't, it's not a fallen Satan. He's just doing his job of."
},
{
"end_time": 1493.848,
"index": 56,
"start_time": 1464.326,
"text": " In the book of Job is not fallen is he's doing his job. His job is to question things, right? Because God is basically saying look at Job. He's righteous. Okay, and that's his job is to like show it's to test. He's the tester. He's like the Actually, it's more than that. It's the tempter and the accuser That's if you want to know the definition of Satan a really good one a tempter and accuser. So he's tempts you"
},
{
"end_time": 1523.08,
"index": 57,
"start_time": 1494.275,
"text": " It's test. Tempt means to test, really. It's a tester. He's testing things. You need that function in the universe. I mean, if I make a system, I need to test it to know if it works, right? I mean, so if you want to understand this function, you could say, for example, if I make a system, a program, OK, and I want to know if it's secure, what I do, I hire a let's say a hacker, someone who knows how to hack things, and I tell him, try to hack my system."
},
{
"end_time": 1549.821,
"index": 58,
"start_time": 1524.241,
"text": " And then he, that's his job. Nice. He's testing the system. He's trying to find flaws. He's trying to find loopholes. He's trying to find blind spots, right? In order to infiltrate this system. So he's doing his job now. See if he would to be fallen or corrupt, this is what it would look like. Maybe he would, instead of doing it to help me who hired him, let's say the hacker. Well, he would start to."
},
{
"end_time": 1576.834,
"index": 59,
"start_time": 1550.538,
"text": " steal information and then use that to gain power so for himself you see so he could do that he could let's say it's an important system let's say it's a government system where there's a lot of critical information the hacker that i hire could obviously steal information and then use that to his advantage you know blackmail blackmail is a good example of what satan does when he's fallen it's a very good example because satan is supposed to find what's wrong"
},
{
"end_time": 1606.937,
"index": 60,
"start_time": 1577.346,
"text": " And then call it out, but privately, you see, you see, like if I hire a hacker and he finds some flaws in my system, how do I know he's, he's good or not? If he just tells me secretly, he tells me privately, these are the flaws of your system and he's doing his job. But if he starts telling other people, right? If he's telling other people what the flaws are, then he's not, then he's fallen. So there's a bunch of criteria that you can use to know if this function has fallen or not. Okay. So, and one of the."
},
{
"end_time": 1635.589,
"index": 61,
"start_time": 1607.329,
"text": " One of the reasons why we see this function as just fallen is because it is the most probably one of the most difficult jobs you could say to have because you're like against the system but you're with the system so you've got to be both you got to have both of these things so it's like the hacker he's he's got to be really he's he's got the spirit of being against see that's what he's doing he's finding flaws he's finding problems"
},
{
"end_time": 1644.548,
"index": 62,
"start_time": 1636.118,
"text": " But then ultimately he's got to be with you. He's got to be for you. And like I said, you can see this. There's many signs to see if he's not or if he is."
},
{
"end_time": 1668.473,
"index": 63,
"start_time": 1645.111,
"text": " So if he finds critical information and then he tries to, let's say, take your system hostage, which is what hackers often do. Let's say he says, oh, OK, I infiltrated your system like you asked me to, but I'm sorry to inform you, but I put a virus in there or a bug in there. And if you don't give me money or something, I'm going to break your system. Obviously, that's an example."
},
{
"end_time": 1695.435,
"index": 64,
"start_time": 1669.172,
"text": " What's the difference between the two? One of them has a will to power and the other one doesn't. Basically, it's really simple. So the fallen one has a will to power. He wants to have power and the other one doesn't care about power. So that's just an example. There's many signs. Like I said before, blackmail is a good example. When you see blackmail going on in the systems that are there in the government,"
},
{
"end_time": 1719.104,
"index": 65,
"start_time": 1695.503,
"text": " You're in trouble. It means basically we could say if I use biblical language, Satan has taken over, like Satan is ruling your country, let's say. If there's blackmail going on and you see signs of it, that's what it means. It means that some element that uses covert finding of flaws"
},
{
"end_time": 1738.2,
"index": 66,
"start_time": 1719.889,
"text": " Has been using these laws to blackmail into control what's supposed to actually be in power. So that's like a satanic takeover by definition. That's what it is. So obviously that's not supposed to happen. You see, that's an example of a fallen of a fallen function of Satan. No, most people aren't."
},
{
"end_time": 1769.309,
"index": 67,
"start_time": 1739.957,
"text": " algorithmic or consciously algorithmic in their thinking. They tend to think in terms of conclusions, but not know how they got to those conclusions. So most of the time when I interview people, or much of the time, not most of the time, they'll have to speak and many of the audience members will have to listen to them on this podcast and maybe other podcasts and maybe multiple times to understand their, what I say their Weltanschauung, this German word for the framework through which they interpret the world. However, you, much like myself, we have a background in math,"
},
{
"end_time": 1795.811,
"index": 68,
"start_time": 1770.026,
"text": " And you also have computer science under your belt. So I'm curious if you have formulated your belt on Shaolin to something like rather than stating here, well, here's what I think. Here's the conclusion. You say, okay, I have the axiom of step one, then step two, because of step one is step two, you deduce this and so on. Like, are you able to lay out the way that you view the world in some simple manner to, to walk someone who's unfamiliar through?"
},
{
"end_time": 1818.148,
"index": 69,
"start_time": 1796.51,
"text": " Well yeah basically that's what my book is basically the book that I wrote the language of creation that's what it is I tried to as much as I could lay it out in simple terms and also in relatively logical terms. So yeah I'd say I am and the parts that I'm not able to that's what I'm working on you see so there's some parts that I."
},
{
"end_time": 1828.558,
"index": 70,
"start_time": 1818.592,
"text": " because it's not just for my mind. I use the Bible, you know, I use tradition as a guideline to understand. I'm not just making stuff up, you know. So like now, for example, I just"
},
{
"end_time": 1848.814,
"index": 71,
"start_time": 1829.394,
"text": " Give an example of the book of Job. So if people are upset by the idea that Satan is not always fallen, well, there's an example right there in the book of Job. You know, do what you want with it. I mean, it's right there. And you can see that the Satan that's in that book is not fallen because he keeps asking God for permission to do everything. So he's asking God."
},
{
"end_time": 1866.391,
"index": 72,
"start_time": 1849.309,
"text": " Can I do this? Can I try to test job and God is like, yeah, okay, he's giving permission to do this, but don't don't do that. Like, don't harm him or don't kill him. You can test them, but don't do this. He's like giving it basically the law that he's supposed to follow in his function of tester of."
},
{
"end_time": 1894.582,
"index": 73,
"start_time": 1868.012,
"text": " Hola, Miami! When's the last time you've been to Burlington? We've updated, organized, and added fresh fashion. See for yourself Friday, November 14th to Sunday, November 16th at our Big Deal event. You can enter for a chance to win free Wawa gas for a year, plus more surprises in your Burlington. Miami, that means so many ways and days to save. Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow! No purchase necessary. Visit BigDealEvent.com for more details."
},
{
"end_time": 1925.247,
"index": 74,
"start_time": 1895.503,
"text": " Testing Joe. He's telling him what to do. He's giving him a law a specific law for him. So in that book He's just doing his job basically. So if anyone doubts what I'm saying, there it is right there It's an example and there's very few places in the Bible where it talks about Satan in the Old Testament at least and that's like the one place well, there's a few others, but Yeah, and there's it's a function you see it's a role. That's the thing other characters do this role to Abraham does it"
},
{
"end_time": 1945.742,
"index": 75,
"start_time": 1925.862,
"text": " and uh who else does it there's that moses does it sometimes god says something in moses is kind of trying to argue with him you know are you sure this is what you want and uh same thing with abraham abraham does it he does the function because god is wants to judge uh the the city of saddam and gomorrah and"
},
{
"end_time": 1961.937,
"index": 76,
"start_time": 1946.271,
"text": " Abraham is trying to convince him not to do it. What is he doing? It's weird, right? I mean, who do you think you are? Are you trying to tell God, like try to show him that he's wrong or something? Yeah, that is what he's doing. He's doing a function and God doesn't mind because God created this function."
},
{
"end_time": 1991.391,
"index": 77,
"start_time": 1962.381,
"text": " It's like, go ahead, Abraham. Convince me that I shouldn't destroy this city. And Abraham does his best to act as the adversary, you know, because he's being, it's like a debate almost. He's being an adversary to God in that case, but not a bad adversary, not a fallen one, a good one. An adversary that is there to kind of like the hacker that I said, that you hire to fortify your system. You're not hiring him to subvert it. You're hiring him to fortify, but the job that he's doing sounds and looks like a subverter."
},
{
"end_time": 2020.52,
"index": 78,
"start_time": 1991.817,
"text": " Because he has to find all the flaws. It's like a criticism that he's given. Let's say you make the system, you hand it over to a hacker and he's like, yeah, no, there's a hole here, loophole here. Somebody can infiltrate here. This is problematic. You got this lock system here that's not strong enough, blah, blah, blah. So it's all criticism, right? Criticism, criticism, criticism, but for the good of the system. And if he did his job right, the system will be better than it was before. It will be more advanced or whatever, more secure."
},
{
"end_time": 2045.384,
"index": 79,
"start_time": 2020.947,
"text": " So what are your axioms? My axioms about how things are? Okay, well, basically, yeah, okay. Sorry, this is hard to explain because as you know, you could state accents, it doesn't mean much unless you find a little bit of implications of it, right? So, well, this is the structure I use is the one that's in the Bible. It's heaven and earth. That's the basic pattern."
},
{
"end_time": 2075.043,
"index": 80,
"start_time": 2046.015,
"text": " So, God created heaven and earth, right? The Bible starts like that. So, heaven is the plan, something like that, the plan of what you want. And earth is the materials, the powers or the skills, the powers, the materials, all of that. Things that are there to serve a function, they don't have a function on their own. So, the function and the plan is this heaven and the rest is earth. So, in earth is included"
},
{
"end_time": 2103.251,
"index": 81,
"start_time": 2075.623,
"text": " powers and skills and things like that. So you combine these together and then you build things. You create. This is why it starts like that in the Bible because it's about God creating the world. So you start with a plan and materials. You build a house. There you go. So God, this is why it says God created heaven and earth because this is how you build things. So I made a plan for my house and I bought the materials. Then I built my house basically, right? That's the structure."
},
{
"end_time": 2124.616,
"index": 82,
"start_time": 2103.78,
"text": " And then inside of that, there's obviously all kinds of other functions that you could do. You see what I'm saying? Like you could go, you could go really far and thinking about all the different functions. Yeah. So that's the joining of heaven and earth. Let's say you have the plan to create your house, the plan of the house, the plan of the house."
},
{
"end_time": 2153.217,
"index": 83,
"start_time": 2124.974,
"text": " Would be an example. Yeah. Well, it starts with the plant. You're right. It starts with the plan to create in the first place. That's like the highest. We could say the highest level of it because you'd say I want to build a house. You don't have a plan yet, right? You just have an idea, a very general vague idea. I want to build a house. Then you see there's then there are steps to do because then you have to actually make a plan for the house, not just a vague idea. You know, that's part of that. We could say the process of heaven."
},
{
"end_time": 2182.756,
"index": 84,
"start_time": 2153.763,
"text": " Is heaven then prior to earth? This is not important, I would say, honestly, because it doesn't mean anything before there's a plan. You see, it's like, oh, let's say I say the plan and the materials to build a house. Were there materials there before? Sure. Whatever. Doesn't mean anything. They weren't materials for the house before I had the plan for the house. They were just stuff, nature."
},
{
"end_time": 2211.357,
"index": 85,
"start_time": 2183.643,
"text": " It's just nature. Before you have a plan, they don't have a purpose. It's not like, well, they might have their own purpose, let's say. Before I built the house, the trees existed. Before I cut the lumber, there were trees. Okay. But why are you telling me about the trees? I want to know about the house. Tell me the story of your house. Well, before there were trees in the forest and then we cut them down and made lumber with it."
},
{
"end_time": 2241.715,
"index": 86,
"start_time": 2211.817,
"text": " Yeah, I don't care about that step. You see, it's not really building. That's not the part of building the house. That's like not important. It's kind of the same thing. You see, it's like was it there before? Sure. God created heaven and earth and the earth was. See, it's the earth was there. But and it was see all the answers to what you ask is in the Bible. It was void and empty and dark. So I don't care about that dark void, empty stuff, really. I will later."
},
{
"end_time": 2267.756,
"index": 87,
"start_time": 2242.432,
"text": " I will later care about it, but not now. I mean, um, and then you have a plan and then it's like, here's the plan. Let there be light. Boom. There's the plan. Now things can order themselves according to, or be ordered according to this plan. Now all of a sudden things have meaning. So this piece of lumber has a purpose. Now I didn't before, you know, that's the case. It's the kind of thing. Um, when you later start to care about it, does it then."
},
{
"end_time": 2296.766,
"index": 88,
"start_time": 2268.302,
"text": " change its status from before. So look, there's a void and then one creates heaven and earth. And then let's take the trees as an example, the house, you don't care about the trees prior to you having a plan to do something with the trees to create the house. Now you said you may later do something with the trees here, whether it's to study them scientifically or to do some historical analysis, I don't know, whatever. You may later care about these trees."
},
{
"end_time": 2327.329,
"index": 89,
"start_time": 2297.415,
"text": " You later caring about these trees, does that change the status of them from a void to something else? Yeah. Well, I'll give you a better example than trees. I'll give you the example that's in the Bible already. OK, so there's like as many people know, there's like two narratives basically of creation. OK, we don't we don't have to see them as contradiction, but there's the first narrative where God creates everything. Right. And then there's this looks what looks to be another narrative where God creates Adam and Eve."
},
{
"end_time": 2353.251,
"index": 90,
"start_time": 2327.722,
"text": " Okay. And then it's like sometimes it looks like they're not in the same order, but it's not that important really. So I'll give you the example I said. In the first narrative, water kind of looks like it's just there to get rid of. So it's like, oh, there was water and darkness. Okay. And then what does God do to create things? He separates the water. Then He moves it to the periphery. He creates the ocean."
},
{
"end_time": 2381.971,
"index": 91,
"start_time": 2353.643,
"text": " It's like this thing is just to get rid. We're just getting rid of the water. Basically move out of the way water where we're building something here, right? So that's kind of like when we get rid of nature in order to build, you know, how we get rid of the nature at first it's, you know, let's get rid of this, this wild stuff cause we want to build. But then, so it's mostly about getting rid of water. Water can almost be seen as bad. Like why is this water there? Let's get rid of it. You know, it's not serving our purpose, but later in the second narrative,"
},
{
"end_time": 2410.06,
"index": 92,
"start_time": 2382.637,
"text": " Water has suddenly is important and you see it starts the narrative with. There was not had been rain yet like it. It talks about water positively for once. There was not a plant in the earth because it had not rain yet and then it talks about a river. Oh now there's water again, but now it's good right? It's water that's there to water the garden. All of a sudden, all of a sudden it's a river."
},
{
"end_time": 2439.087,
"index": 93,
"start_time": 2410.572,
"text": " So it starts like it's an ocean that you got to get rid of, get rid of this water. And then after you built a basic thing, you bring back the water. But now the water is there for a purpose. See, it's now it's positive water. At first it was like seen negatively or defined negatively. Now it's defined positively. And what is it for? And that's you want to know what chaos is for. That's the answer right there. This is like water. What do we need water for? To water the garden. That's what it says in the Bible. So the water is there to renew."
},
{
"end_time": 2469.497,
"index": 94,
"start_time": 2439.804,
"text": " That's what the function is of water, the symbolism, renew something, make it new, make it fresh, clean it. That's what it's for. So it has a purpose to see the water. And that is actually the purpose of the function that I was telling you before. One of the purpose is that the feminine purpose is to renew, is to clean. Cleaning is a kind of criticism, right? I mean, you clean something, you're saying you're not okay."
},
{
"end_time": 2500.179,
"index": 95,
"start_time": 2470.435,
"text": " It's a criticism. It could look like it's a bad thing, right? I mean, I'm telling you, you're not okay. You need to be cleaned and then you clean it. But it's not negative because it's not an attack. If it's done by someone who cares about you, you know, it's not an attack. But if it's not, then it can be an attack. Someone could flood you with water. Well, this is what happens in the story of the deluge, by the way, of the flood narrative. Water is used as a weapon, you see, by God. God uses water as a weapon to destroy the world."
},
{
"end_time": 2527.688,
"index": 96,
"start_time": 2501.032,
"text": " So water has a positive and negative function. You got to see it as both. So it's kind of what I'm saying too about the Satan function. It has a function of renewal. It has a function of testing things to make sure they're working. And two, there's another function too. It's improving, improving. It's not just about cleaning because cleaning just means you bring it back to its original state, right?"
},
{
"end_time": 2555.179,
"index": 97,
"start_time": 2528.029,
"text": " There's a bigger function here, which is improving something. So like, if I hire a hacker for my system to know, to try to make it fail, my purpose is to improve the system, right? It's not about cleaning necessarily. It can be, but the goal is to improve it. So this is why they say in the Bible, this is an important verse. It says, a woman is a man, is a crown to her husband, you see."
},
{
"end_time": 2579.087,
"index": 98,
"start_time": 2555.811,
"text": " So the woman is a crown to her husband. It means, because it's related to what I'm saying here, it's about making a system improve it, improve it, make it even better. So that's what it means to have a crown. It means the system was there and now I'm trying to improve it. You see, a symbol of improving something could be represented by a crown because it's like we're pointing towards something better, higher, you see."
},
{
"end_time": 2608.66,
"index": 99,
"start_time": 2579.735,
"text": " So if you hire a hacker to test your system, you're looking at your system and you're trying to give it a crown, you're trying to make it go higher, you see. So these functions are related. The symbolism, I mean, of the woman is related to the idea of a crown. So a central premise for your work is that we use or we tend to read ancient text with our modern eyes and we don't see them in the same way that the ancients saw them necessarily. So here would be an instance where someone could read"
},
{
"end_time": 2638.643,
"index": 100,
"start_time": 2609.377,
"text": " Women are the crown of man or wife is the crown of a husband and think, Oh, crown trophy. Oh, you just want a trophy wife, but you're outlining a different case. But a trophy, a trophy is related to what I'm saying here. A trophy, a real trophy, the real deep symbolism of the trophy is related to exactly this symbolism I'm talking here. You see, why, why do we represent trophies as a cup? Usually we do that, right? Like the archetypal image of a trophy is a cup, right? Why, why is it a cup? Because whoever"
},
{
"end_time": 2666.357,
"index": 101,
"start_time": 2638.968,
"text": " Made those understood these things that I'm talking about because it's about renewal. It's like the grail. Okay. A trophy is like the grail. It's renewal. It looks arbitrary, but it's not because look, I'll give you an example. Let's say I want to improve something. What do I do? Well, you do a competition. You could do a competition to know what's the best alternative. See? And then who wins the competition is the one who wins the cup."
},
{
"end_time": 2696.305,
"index": 102,
"start_time": 2667.142,
"text": " Cup is the grill. It's about renewal. It's like this. You are the one who wins the battle of different competitors, right? So you want the best one. You let them compete and then the winner gets the cup and the cup is you have the power to renew the system. The one who wins the competition is the one who's got it. He's the one who's going to make it better. You see is the best option. So it's something like that because when you have a status quo and you never do a competition,"
},
{
"end_time": 2725.725,
"index": 103,
"start_time": 2697.039,
"text": " This is when the system gets old and not up to date and corrupt. All these things, right? If nothing changes. But so then what would you do if you would want to renew? You need a competition. You do a competition. So now may the best one win. And so that's a way to get rid of the corruption is to do a competition. I mean, that's why we do democracy. Right? You have a king. If it's always the same king,"
},
{
"end_time": 2755.776,
"index": 104,
"start_time": 2727.056,
"text": " We don't like that idea because we have the idea that it could be corrupt. So what do we do? We do a competition. Democracy is a competition and the winner wins a cup. We don't do that ritual, but it could be. The winner of the competition gets the cup. The cup is the thing that represents the renewal of the system. So democracy is about renewing the system. Personally, I'm a monarchist, so I'm not even defending anything here, but I understand why it exists. I understand what's the symbolic role of democracy."
},
{
"end_time": 2785.35,
"index": 105,
"start_time": 2756.391,
"text": " So it's the idea of a competition, but the competition can also get corrupt too. So that's, that's the problem. That's can be also a problem. The king can be corrupt, but so can the competition to find a renewal of the system that can also get corrupted. Now this renewal, is this related to why women are associated with the resurrection of Christ? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Women are all about that. The women are, are."
},
{
"end_time": 2814.906,
"index": 106,
"start_time": 2785.879,
"text": " I mean, it's for a reason that in the Bible, Eve is kind of connected to Satan, right? It doesn't say in the Garden narrative that the snake is Satan, but it's like in tradition, we understand this. But it clearly is anyway. If you understand what Satan is, you can see that the snake is doing that function. He's questioning things, you know, he's saying, he's trying to see if they're, he's actually testing, the snake is testing Adam and Eve. That's what he's doing. He's testing their loyalty to God, you see?"
},
{
"end_time": 2833.592,
"index": 107,
"start_time": 2815.316,
"text": " So you might even think that God sent the snake in the first place. We don't know that so I'm not going to claim that but I mean it would make sense to think that Adam is doing his job and everything and then God wants to see if he's worthy of this function or maybe even get an even bigger function."
},
{
"end_time": 2862.227,
"index": 108,
"start_time": 2834.104,
"text": " Well, I'm going to test this guy. Just like when we do tests for anything, we test to see if you're adequate and then you fail the test, then you're not. You pass the test, then you are. So you could see the snake is that it's just a test for Adam and you failed. So you failed that test, but he could have passed. Let's linger on this. So Adam is there and then Eve takes a bite and then offers the apple to Adam. At that point, prior to Adam also taking a bite."
},
{
"end_time": 2885.981,
"index": 109,
"start_time": 2862.722,
"text": " Should Adam have chosen not to take a bite? Because you could see this as yes, if he doesn't take a bite, he's obeying God. But simultaneously, he's allowing Eve to be exiled alone. Yeah, I understand. I don't know the answer. But it's these are questions that are worth thinking about. I'm not going to say that I know. I mean,"
},
{
"end_time": 2911.254,
"index": 110,
"start_time": 2886.698,
"text": " You see, I told you before that, let's say I was talking about democracy and I said, the king can be corrupt, but so can democracy. So can the process that's supposed to renew the system, which is democracy, an example of it. And I said, it can be corrupt. Well, that's what it's basically saying in the story of Adam and Eve. So Adam is more like, represents the status quo of authority. Let's say something like a king or something, an emperor or something like that."
},
{
"end_time": 2941.596,
"index": 111,
"start_time": 2911.937,
"text": " And then Eve does represent that which is supposed to renew him and that which is supposed to find his blind spots and maybe lovingly criticize him. Like if he starts to get corrupt, she's there to help him not, you know, she's there to improve him. Okay. But you see, even she got corrupt and that's why she was tricked by the snake. So she got corrupt and we know how, we know how she got corrupt. The snake told her that God."
},
{
"end_time": 2966.425,
"index": 112,
"start_time": 2943.626,
"text": " God had bad intentions, basically. It's like, God is the reason he's telling you is not the real one. It would have been easy for them to resist this. All they had to do was ask God. Period. People are like, oh, this is complicated. No, it's not. This guy's telling you that God is lying to you and he has bad intentions and that what he's telling you is not good for you."
},
{
"end_time": 2996.476,
"index": 113,
"start_time": 2967.073,
"text": " Okay, I'm gonna go ask God What do you think the snake would have said if he if you would have said that he would have been like, no, no, no Don't ask him. Yeah, you would have started to panic, you know, which is what which is what crooks do when you when you do this move, it's like I'm talking against my neighbor. Don't tell him what I said. Oh, yeah, I will tell him what you said. Let's see what happens, you know so you this guy is trying to keep a secret of subverse subversion, right and then all they had to do was ask God and tell him"
},
{
"end_time": 3021.749,
"index": 114,
"start_time": 2997.21,
"text": " Is it true that you don't want us to eat from the fruit because you don't want us to be like you? You see, and he would have you would have given the answer, but they didn't. So that's, I mean, it's not that complicated. This is a real phenomenon in real life too. You know, if someone tries to say, don't tell this person, you know, this guy said you, he said you were, he said you were dumb. Don't tell him I said so."
},
{
"end_time": 3046.647,
"index": 115,
"start_time": 3022.193,
"text": " You see? Oh, I will tell him you said so and then we'll see. It's like you got to ask the other side of it and then the other side will might say, no, I never said you were dumb. What are you talking about? This is how Satan, this is how subversion works. You keep a secret. You got to have secrets and then you make sure this person doesn't talk to this person, right? That's how you cause division. And then you say, this person said this about you. Don't tell him I said so."
},
{
"end_time": 3071.237,
"index": 116,
"start_time": 3047.517,
"text": " so if you fall for that so it sounds like that's an answer in this act symbolic or or what have you when eve offered the apple to adam adam should have asked god and said hey god by the way eve is offering me this this is what she told me what's cool what should i do yes very simple exactly but and why why should he ask because it contradicts if it didn't contradict you know"
},
{
"end_time": 3098.234,
"index": 117,
"start_time": 3071.715,
"text": " If she was giving something that didn't contradict what God said, he wouldn't have to ask God, you know, if you have free will, you could do, but it's something that directly contradicts what God said. So in that case, yes, you should inquire. It seems obvious actually when you say it now, but this is a real social phenomenon. I mean, this is how things get subverted. People say things about other people and then they don't."
},
{
"end_time": 3120.316,
"index": 118,
"start_time": 3098.524,
"text": " They make sure you don't connect. See, it's all about connecting things, right? It's all about communication and connecting things to God. And he kind of broke that communication. The snake broke it. He's like, I'm telling you a secret about God. And he's like, you're not going to ask him, are you? Because I'm saying he has bad intentions. So if he has bad intentions, why would you ask him?"
},
{
"end_time": 3147.363,
"index": 119,
"start_time": 3120.862,
"text": " You know, I already convinced you that God was lying to you. So why would you then go ask God if he is lying to you? No, you won't. See, that's how Satan tricks people. He makes sure that there's no communication. See? And this is why, by the way, this is why the most powerful thing in the world is secret stuff. Like secret agencies and things like that. Let's say we're talking about governmental function."
},
{
"end_time": 3170.145,
"index": 120,
"start_time": 3147.91,
"text": " intelligence agencies are more powerful than governments. That's why they can be. They're not necessarily, but they can be more powerful. There's also why the occult appeals to many people. Occult is something that's hidden. Yeah. People like the idea of secret power. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And secret in the sense that"
},
{
"end_time": 3200.009,
"index": 121,
"start_time": 3174.292,
"text": " Ford BlueCruise hands-free highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control. Enjoy the drive in BlueCruise enabled vehicles like the F-150, Explorer and Mustang Mach-E. Available feature on equipped vehicles. Terms apply. Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com slash BlueCruise for more details."
},
{
"end_time": 3230.759,
"index": 122,
"start_time": 3202.278,
"text": " Yeah, secret from everyone else. That's one thing, too. But you see that the thing is, too. That's nothing wrong with secrets, but they can be used to subvert. And so you got to be careful. It's like it doesn't mean secrets are bad, but you got to be real careful when you're dealing with anything that tells you not to say something. So what does it mean to be real careful at this point? So are you suggesting that when we"
},
{
"end_time": 3261.578,
"index": 123,
"start_time": 3231.681,
"text": " Acquire a secret that we should talk to God in other words prayer When we have a secret or is it only when that secret? Contradict something morally or contradicts at all even like a logical contradiction. I was confused because I'm thinking okay. Let me follow this God is some people say God is reality. There are logical contradictions which seem to be some contradiction in reality Does that mean that when I encounter the liar's paradox? I should go and pray"
},
{
"end_time": 3289.701,
"index": 124,
"start_time": 3262.398,
"text": " Help me. No. No, it doesn't mean that. That's an example, actually. That's good since you're still your mathematician, right? You studied mathematics, right? OK, so yeah, that's that proof of incompleteness is very interesting, you know, with what I'm saying. It's basically the function of. Of the of the female role, the."
},
{
"end_time": 3319.002,
"index": 125,
"start_time": 3290.06,
"text": " The incompleteness theorem because it's like mathematics is like the male side, you know, I got some ideas and I deduce, I deduce everything from my principles. Boom. That's the masculine side, you know, it's like Adam naming the animals, you know, the usual mathematics where you have axioms, you prove all your, your theorems with your actions. This is like Adam naming the animals. It's like I named the animals. I'm giving a name. Okay. It's that's kind of what it is because you're, you're using your axioms to justify these"
},
{
"end_time": 3347.858,
"index": 126,
"start_time": 3319.633,
"text": " It's all connected together like a tree. But then there's like a pride to that when you do that. It's like you get prideful. And then the female role comes along and says, okay, I got a riddle for you, Adam. It's like Eve that brings a riddle to Adam. And the riddle is the Liar's Paradox, right? Like you said, this sentence or this statement is false, right?"
},
{
"end_time": 3377.381,
"index": 127,
"start_time": 3348.933,
"text": " And then Adam has no choice but to admit that he can't prove it or disprove it. He can't. It's undecidable. So that's it's like a way to say there's things outside your system. You know, your system doesn't include everything. So don't be too prideful. And this actually is this liars paradox is something that improved mathematics. You see, it improved it. It didn't just subvert it."
},
{
"end_time": 3403.865,
"index": 128,
"start_time": 3378.114,
"text": " You see what I'm saying? At first it sounded like to some mathematicians like this is breaking mathematics, right? The incompleteness there. But really what it did is improve it. It generated all these fields of in computer science mostly where it's like this can't be done. This can't be done. Stop wasting your time with this. You know, it's all based on this idea of incompleteness."
},
{
"end_time": 3433.746,
"index": 129,
"start_time": 3405.162,
"text": " many fields developed from that so it's like if you're doing computer science it's like you want to do this you want to create this system and it's like you want to create it in a way that it will be efficient enough to be useful and then you hire some computer scientist or mathematician who uses proofs that are very similar to the incompleteness theorem i don't know if you've looked into that but very much related and then the conclusion is don't waste your time"
},
{
"end_time": 3455.486,
"index": 130,
"start_time": 3434.189,
"text": " Don't waste your time making this system. You can't. So it's like a boundary. It's like a negative boundary to what you can do, what you can't do. So this boundary, you could say, ah, this kind of hurt mathematics. No, it didn't. It improved it. It made us not waste time on certain issues. It made us not turn in circles, which is interesting because the"
},
{
"end_time": 3483.473,
"index": 131,
"start_time": 3455.981,
"text": " Liar's paradox is a circle, right? It's something that contradicts itself and then becomes true, becomes false, becomes true, becomes false, right? So the shape of it is a circle. This sentence is false, is a circle, right? If you look at the shape of it, it becomes true, false, true, false, true, false, true, false. So this circle was used to not waste our time on other kinds of"
},
{
"end_time": 3513.148,
"index": 132,
"start_time": 3483.968,
"text": " Circles that are wastes of times where you're trying to prove something but you can't but if you don't know that you can't You're going around in circles. You see if you're trying to prove something that you can't but you don't know that you can't You could waste a thousand years trying to prove this thing. So it's good to have a way to say No, you can't so it gives a little bit of humility. You see it's related to humility like it gives you humility to realize Some things are outside my system and never will be in my system. So it's like you're saying hmm"
},
{
"end_time": 3541.681,
"index": 133,
"start_time": 3514.189,
"text": " I thought I was going to explain the whole universe with my science or my, in this case it's mathematics, but it's the same kind of spirit, you know. I'm going to explain absolutely everything and prove every theorem with my system. And then the female side is like, I call the female side symbolically, obviously, but it's like, no, here's a paradox that you can't solve. This is like Eve giving something to Adam."
},
{
"end_time": 3570.708,
"index": 134,
"start_time": 3542.108,
"text": " And then he he admits, oh, I'm not God, you know, there's some things that I can't prove. My system is not is not complete. But now it's more complete than it was before, because now I know the limits of it. I know there's some things outside my system, but I can still know things about it because of this new addition to it's like a crown. The incompleteness theorem is a crown to mathematics. Really, you could you could say like that if you understand it symbolically. OK."
},
{
"end_time": 3596.817,
"index": 135,
"start_time": 3570.947,
"text": " Quick question. So first clarification, I'm not a mathematician. My background is in math and physics. But yeah, I'm not a mathematician either. Just to be clear, because many people will be like, yeah, well, mathematicians research. Yeah. And this podcast is a different form of research than what's traditionally called research. OK, so just that. Number two, symbolically. Is it even possible for Adam to have lived in the Garden of Eden?"
},
{
"end_time": 3625.981,
"index": 136,
"start_time": 3597.176,
"text": " while Eve was exiled. Is that even possible? Would it have been possible for Adam to convene with God? Is it possible? Well, we don't know. We don't know that that if Adam would have not eaten, then Eve would have been exiled. We don't know that. That's I don't. It's not that I don't want to answer your question. It's just that that's it doesn't say that anywhere. It doesn't say."
},
{
"end_time": 3640.93,
"index": 137,
"start_time": 3626.442,
"text": " that eve would have been exiled if adam let's say adam would have asked god hey god what do you think of this idea you know the snake just told my wife this she fell for it now i'm asking you what do you think and god is like no and he would have given some great mystery probably"
},
{
"end_time": 3667.654,
"index": 138,
"start_time": 3641.288,
"text": " Where he would have understood that it's not about God like not wanting you to grow or anything like that. It's not about that. We're not in competition, Adam. This is God speaking Adam. Let's say we're not in competition. Okay, calm down. You're in my image. We're not in competition. You're not my enemy. I'm not lying to you, you see. And then Adam might have said to Eve, no, this is a mistake. We're not going to eat that."
},
{
"end_time": 3697.517,
"index": 139,
"start_time": 3668.131,
"text": " Maybe she would have, she already ate it, but maybe if Adam would have done that, then Eve would have been saved from this problem. Interesting. We don't know. We just don't know. The reason I'm asking you, I understand that you don't know and no one knows that these are hypotheticals, but the reason I was asking is I was wondering if there's something about Adam staying and Eve going or vice versa that would have contradicted the axioms that build your worldview. Okay. Yeah."
},
{
"end_time": 3733.37,
"index": 140,
"start_time": 3704.002,
"text": " I'd have to think about that. I've never thought about that question because I'm still trying to understand all this function of renewal, you see. So if there's no Renewer, what happens? I don't know because it says in the Bible, God creates Adam, he names the animals, and then it says it's not good that he's alone. So there's a reason why Eve is there."
},
{
"end_time": 3760.52,
"index": 141,
"start_time": 3733.66,
"text": " It's related to, it's related to sin too. She's supposed to be there to do the function of, that I was saying before, the function of kind of testing the limits of things and if Adam is making a mistake, trying to help him to improve and things like that, that's what I understand anyway, to renew himself, things like that."
},
{
"end_time": 3786.886,
"index": 142,
"start_time": 3761.817,
"text": " Is it possible that there's no Eve? If there's no Eve, what happens? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it's not part of the story. I think Eve has to be there because it says so in the story. But what would happen if Eve ate the fruit and Adam didn't and then Eve was gone? I don't know. Maybe Adam"
},
{
"end_time": 3813.865,
"index": 143,
"start_time": 3788.012,
"text": " redeems her from exile. Maybe if he's in the garden, he has the power to redeem her. Maybe I'm just trying. I'm just making stuff up here. But if it makes sense, actually, what I'm saying, in the sense that there are stories about this, that it's not explicitly about Adam and Eve, but the story, the idea of redeeming something from exile and death is a pattern in the Bible."
},
{
"end_time": 3842.517,
"index": 144,
"start_time": 3814.497,
"text": " I guess it does answer your question. I mean, Ruth kind of represents the fallen."
},
{
"end_time": 3871.493,
"index": 145,
"start_time": 3843.404,
"text": " Feminine aspect and then she's redeemed by Boaz But she she she renews her to it's it's a two-sided deal, you know it's like she washes his feet in a way and he redeems her from exile and She represents she kind of represents what you're saying the Eve Eve fallen It if Adam is in the is in the homeland if Adam is in the garden he can redeem her out of exile. Oh"
},
{
"end_time": 3889.599,
"index": 146,
"start_time": 3871.817,
"text": " I guess that does answer your question. Maybe Eve stays in exile for a while and then eventually she gets saved. But the reason she can be saved is because there's someone that can save her that's not in the water. It's like if you're in the water, you need someone on a boat to take you out of the water. If everyone's in the water,"
},
{
"end_time": 3919.889,
"index": 147,
"start_time": 3890.247,
"text": " You can't get out of it, you see, but if there's a boat and then someone helps you out of the water, then you can get out. It's kind of a that kind of deal. If you're in exile and there's someone, someone can save you who's not in exile and take you out. But if everyone's in exile, it's like if everyone's drowning in the water, you can't you can't get out of it. You see what I'm saying? So to the Christian, is that the role Jesus served or serves? Oh, the role to us, to humanity? It's more than that, I would say it's maybe part of it. Yeah, yeah."
},
{
"end_time": 3950.452,
"index": 148,
"start_time": 3920.742,
"text": " But it's more because he goes into death, you see. So he does go into death. So it's more than that. It's more than the person who stays in the garden then picks someone out because he actually goes down and comes out. So it's more, but it's part of it, I would say. It's an aspect of it. It's always hard when talking about Jesus because Jesus is like, it's like all the symbols in one. You see, so it's kind of like,"
},
{
"end_time": 3978.319,
"index": 149,
"start_time": 3951.578,
"text": " Anything you ask about Jesus, it's always hard to answer. It can be answered, but it's always going to be yes, yes, that's Jesus too, that's Jesus too. Sometimes it's more useful to use more specific stories that are not the whole incarnation of the whole truth. You see what I'm saying? As weird as that sounds, sometimes it's useful to use more specific stories that are just about one truth or just one aspect of it."
},
{
"end_time": 4006.954,
"index": 150,
"start_time": 3979.002,
"text": " And then you can kind of focus on that. But when it's Jesus, it's like he has all of the patterns in him. So it would be easy for me to say, yes, yes, Jesus is everything, you know, but what is that? It's not that helpful for people who try to understand it from the outside, you know. So it's better to you. It's better for me to say something like Ruth is an example than to say Jesus is an example in a way. Because it's more specific and someone could go read that story and see what I'm talking about."
},
{
"end_time": 4036.817,
"index": 151,
"start_time": 4007.432,
"text": " It's about a specific case of the female part being in exile, coming back to the land, and then being redeemed by someone who has remained in the land. When we started this conversation, I asked you who you are, and at that point you said that there was some aspect of yourself that's defined internally and then some that's external. I'm curious if the internal part of you, if the part that defines you from within, would call yourself a universalist,"
},
{
"end_time": 4064.957,
"index": 152,
"start_time": 4037.039,
"text": " I'm not a perennialist, if that means what I think. I'm a Christian. I'm partial to Orthodox religion. I'm partial to Catholicism too. It's hard for me. I am in exile myself right now."
},
{
"end_time": 4093.643,
"index": 153,
"start_time": 4065.828,
"text": " And I'm going to get out of it. I will get out of it, but it's not that easy for me. I can't get into it, but I'm going to get out of it. And yeah, I'm definitely a Christian. That's for sure. Yeah, I'm in the process. That would be difficult to explain. Matthew, you and I are extremely similar. So I am similarly"
},
{
"end_time": 4121.954,
"index": 154,
"start_time": 4094.292,
"text": " philosophically homeless, metaphysically homeless, religiously homeless. You seem to have found more of your land than myself, at least religiously. So do you think the way to get out of it is to join an existing tradition? Is it going to be that you're going to plant your flag in Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxism or what have you? Sorry, Eastern Orthodoxy? Yeah."
},
{
"end_time": 4148.097,
"index": 155,
"start_time": 4123.473,
"text": " That's what it is. Yes, the answer is yes. That's what I think. You have to choose. I'm not going to say you have to choose a tradition because I think some traditions are wrong. You have to choose a tradition that is true. If you choose a wrong tradition, you'll get errors and stuff like that."
},
{
"end_time": 4177.773,
"index": 156,
"start_time": 4148.695,
"text": " If you're in the right tradition, you could get heirs to, obviously, that's some of what I encountered personally in my life. But I'm struggling for it. But that's what I am going to do. Yeah. So what's preventing you from planting your flag? This is something I literally can't talk about, because if I do, I become subversive, you see. So I can't do that. There's some questions that I have to answer."
},
{
"end_time": 4206.817,
"index": 157,
"start_time": 4178.66,
"text": " That I'm going to answer with help of many people, but if I'm not going to talk about the problem that I can't solve, you see, and I'm not going to talk about these problems that can't be solved, what's the point? There's none. The only thing it does is cause divisions and subversions and things like that. It's totally not useful. So when I'm able to express what I'm troubled with,"
},
{
"end_time": 4236.476,
"index": 158,
"start_time": 4208.166,
"text": " Then I'll talk about it. I'm getting closer. It's related to Satan and that stuff. It's related to women, like a women in the sense of Eve and the symbolism of these things. Yes. I mean, if you want to know, basically what happened to me is I asked some questions at one point. I've always been interested in the Bible. I come from a Christian background. My parents are Christian."
},
{
"end_time": 4262.534,
"index": 159,
"start_time": 4237.568,
"text": " So I've been reading the Bible for a long time and at one point I asked some questions, you know, and nobody could answer. And then I started thinking about it and then it caused me to fall into what we could describe as exile, which is a state of quest. You're on a quest, you know, quest like you have a question that you can't answer. And then"
},
{
"end_time": 4292.005,
"index": 160,
"start_time": 4263.66,
"text": " You know, people could just say, oh, why don't you just forget about that and, uh, just join my gang, you know, join my group. It's like, yeah, I could pretend. You see, would you like, would you want that? You want me to pretend that I'm agreeing with things that I don't agree just so I could be. Correct. You know, just so I could be righteous. No, I could do that, but I don't want to. I think it's not wrong that I don't join something that I"
},
{
"end_time": 4321.852,
"index": 161,
"start_time": 4292.756,
"text": " I'm in conflict with internally. I have to resolve these conflicts before I joined something. And I know that the things are correct. You see, I know that they are correct, but I also know that my questions that I have are not answered. You see, I'm going to say what that is, but those questions are not have been, I think, lost."
},
{
"end_time": 4347.193,
"index": 162,
"start_time": 4322.619,
"text": " and i don't use that to criticize anyone it's nobody's fault you know i think it's part of the like mystery of the universe basically like the mystery of christianity that there's a question that's not answered and then this question will be answered eventually but right now it's not so someone could tell me well why you focus on that then why don't you focus on what we do know well that's too late"
},
{
"end_time": 4377.5,
"index": 163,
"start_time": 4348.131,
"text": " It's like eight from true knowledge of good and bad, basically at one point. Yes. And now I can pretend I didn't, but it's that's not how it works. You know, you eat something, it's in you. It's part of you. You can't just say. I'm going to forget it. It's inside you, you see, like if you if you if you eat something that you can't handle and you immediately vomit. That's that's a way to save yourself, but if it's"
},
{
"end_time": 4406.084,
"index": 164,
"start_time": 4378.251,
"text": " If it's been in you for a long time, you can't just vomit anymore. It's part of you now. So you have to deal with it, which is what I'm doing. You know, I'm going to, I'm close. Uh, and when I do, then I'll, I'll do it. What's, what's the right thing to do, which is to join a church, a specific church. I already know what, what it is for me and what I."
},
{
"end_time": 4434.48,
"index": 165,
"start_time": 4407.073,
"text": " But I have to resolve these issues first. I have help from different people. But it's because you see how it's dangerous. It's easy. I don't want to be subversive. That's it. There's no reason for me to attack. I don't want to attack. Because when you have a question that's not answered, you can use it to attack. If you have a theory, a science, and I have a question that you can't answer with your science,"
},
{
"end_time": 4447.807,
"index": 166,
"start_time": 4435.316,
"text": " It's like I'm attacking your science, right? I'm attacking your knowledge."
},
{
"end_time": 4475.23,
"index": 167,
"start_time": 4450.247,
"text": " There's no reason for me to do that. There's none."
},
{
"end_time": 4502.363,
"index": 168,
"start_time": 4475.947,
"text": " So I'm just going to figure out what I'm figuring out. And then once I do that, then I'm going to probably talk about what I found, which is related. Like I said, it's related to this story of Tamar and it's related to certain stories in the Bible that gave me an insight a long time ago when I was about 20, 25, maybe around there. I'm not that good with time, but"
},
{
"end_time": 4532.022,
"index": 169,
"start_time": 4503.439,
"text": " I got I have received like knowledge and I and it was more a question than answer you see so and now yeah I can't pretend that I know I'm not concerned with these things so I have to deal with it so yeah I mean I mean basically I'm in exile right now that's what I am so I'm not I don't want anyone to do the mistake that I like to fall into the same trap as me so I can't talk about these certain issues just can't talk about until I have it"
},
{
"end_time": 4557.381,
"index": 170,
"start_time": 4532.995,
"text": " Good answer. So the answer might come from someone I talked to or could come from an authority in the church. So far it hasn't. So it's nobody's fault. I think it's my problem. It's like I, yeah, ate from true knowledge of good and bad. There's some questions that are meant to be answered later. Not now. And then I,"
},
{
"end_time": 4587.022,
"index": 171,
"start_time": 4557.927,
"text": " Delved into that too much. So now it's like I'm stuck in them certain kind of mud. I know how that feels. Yeah. Materialism is that I mean, the science, all the sciences based on materialism is an example of what I'm saying. So we ask questions. Okay. And these questions brought us away from the, the traditions of let's say the church into a whole other realm of"
},
{
"end_time": 4616.323,
"index": 172,
"start_time": 4587.79,
"text": " Things that are not talked about by the church. So the church doesn't talk about atoms and electrons and things like that. You see what I'm saying? So if you delve too much into these questions, you end up separating yourself from, you see, from, let's say, example, the church. Because it's not a priest's job to answer these questions. It's not the job of a priest to answer questions about electrons, you see. So you could say, oh,"
},
{
"end_time": 4646.22,
"index": 173,
"start_time": 4617.005,
"text": " I'm going to ask a priest to tell me my answers about what I'm trying to understand, but he doesn't know. It's not an insult to these authorities because it's not their job. When you ask questions, you end up. If you ask questions that there's no answer to, you end up in a kind of exile. That's kind of what happened to me. I'm not promoting it. I'm not telling people should do like me. Actually, no, don't."
},
{
"end_time": 4667.858,
"index": 174,
"start_time": 4646.63,
"text": " So many people who watch this podcast do so because they're similarly wrestling with the contradictory or the unanswered, maybe even the in principle unanswerable, but we don't know what's unanswerable versus just unanswered."
},
{
"end_time": 4696.22,
"index": 175,
"start_time": 4668.524,
"text": " And they take this seriously instead of a signal of nonsense. You know, many people take the opposite view and they say, well, if something's contradictory, then it's meaningless and just don't care about it. But some people also don't take that view. Now, I don't care about being galvanic and inflammatory for no reason, but I've similarly tasted something that I probably shouldn't have. And it nearly destroyed me."
},
{
"end_time": 4726.613,
"index": 176,
"start_time": 4697.688,
"text": " In some ways it's strengthened me more than anything else. But in, in many ways it's left me adrift and broke me deeper than anything else. I'm being vague for similar reasons to you. You mentioned that you're managing to find your way out of it. How you don't have to talk about what brought you there, but what does that process look like? Um,"
},
{
"end_time": 4760.282,
"index": 177,
"start_time": 4730.589,
"text": " Well, there's different parts of it. One of one of it is to obviously try to answer the question that you have. OK, but how do you do that? Well, I do it in a certain way, which is it's not something that I necessarily recommend anyone else to. But it's like I call it I call it rumination, which is hard to explain, but it's"
},
{
"end_time": 4790.742,
"index": 178,
"start_time": 4760.998,
"text": " It's something where you have a question and you gradually work it down with experience of nature, I would say. It's about nature. Kind of like in science, how you get answers is to look at nature, right? It's not through deduction. It's by contact with nature, with reality. That's how you find it. Answers that are new. You want new things, you look at nature. You don't look at a book, right? You don't look at"
},
{
"end_time": 4817.637,
"index": 179,
"start_time": 4791.34,
"text": " What other people have already said, you look at reality and nature, which is what science does. You see, science is in the same dilemma as me, but not for the same reasons. Me, it's questions that are biblical. Whereas science is like just completely separate. Which one might say is better? Because you can be a scientist and still then say, I'm going to"
},
{
"end_time": 4847.91,
"index": 180,
"start_time": 4818.404,
"text": " be a Christian and all of this knowledge about science has nothing to do with religion. So I can just forget, but I don't have to see them as conflicted. So in a way it's worse, but well, it's not that true about science because the conclusions of science seem to differ greatly from the conclusions of the Bible. See, so it's not true what I'm saying. It does kind of put you in a dilemma or in exile. But yeah, it's like a slow process."
},
{
"end_time": 4877.21,
"index": 181,
"start_time": 4848.131,
"text": " How do I reconcile myself with this whole process of trying to find answers, but not forcefully finding them? You see, it's also about just changing my attitude about things, not being arrogant. Like this is something, before there was some arrogance in my questioning, you know, some subversiveness and some forcefulness. And now there's not, I would say, not much."
},
{
"end_time": 4907.807,
"index": 182,
"start_time": 4877.995,
"text": " Trying to get rid of that. That's probably what I have to do. Maybe at one point I'll just. Accept that there's no answer to what I'm. I don't think I don't think that's the correct path, though. I think I have to find the answer, but yeah, part of it is is attitude change. Like. Yeah, an attitude change and also a. Patient learn patients. And then it's like I used to be aggressive in my questioning"
},
{
"end_time": 4935.725,
"index": 183,
"start_time": 4908.37,
"text": " the Bible, let's say in religion and Christianity. I was aggressive, you see what I mean? Yes. Using it as a weapon against the system. Although the church is not really the system anymore, let's be honest. It's on the margins now, so it wasn't really that useful, in fact, because everyone's attacking the church anyway, from all around. So the church doesn't need one more attack from me."
},
{
"end_time": 4959.394,
"index": 184,
"start_time": 4936.34,
"text": " Who sees myself as a Christian and that loves the church. Did you ever go through a militant atheist phase? No, no, no, no, because I know that I know God is real because I have experiences, you know, I don't care what anyone says. If when you have a spiritual experiences, nobody can convince you that there is no such thing."
},
{
"end_time": 4989.94,
"index": 185,
"start_time": 4960.282,
"text": " Oh, I say in my mind, if someone says there's no such thing, I just say in my mind, well, you don't you have never experienced it. Don't know what to tell you. You know, it's like if you have no nose, you can't smell. Yeah. But if you don't have a nose and you tell me that there's no such thing as odor, I'm going to say, OK, sorry, you don't have a nose. I'm sorry for your condition of not having a nose. But I do have a nose and I do smell odors. And you can tell me that's not real. But I'm sorry. But it's not convincing to me. It's kind of the same thing. You know, if you have a"
},
{
"end_time": 5017.176,
"index": 186,
"start_time": 4990.913,
"text": " Spiritual insights and things like that then nobody can tell you that it's not real. It's just not gonna happen You know, so I never had that face of my life where I was like not believing in God or anything like that but I did have a phase where I was Critical very critical of the church cheese I should say because I came from a Protestant background so"
},
{
"end_time": 5046.954,
"index": 187,
"start_time": 5018.251,
"text": " I was critical of that, and then I was critical of Catholicism, and then I was critical of orthodoxy, you see. I went through the whole thing. So I think that's gone. I don't have that anymore. I'm not critical anymore. I just know that I'm the one who needs to struggle with these things. It's not anyone else's responsibility. I used to put it on everyone else, and now I'm putting it on myself. I'm seeing myself as a problem instead of everything else, which I think is what you have to do."
},
{
"end_time": 5077.125,
"index": 188,
"start_time": 5047.91,
"text": " I'll get some help from different people, you know, I'm not on my own. Uh, but yeah, it's, you have to, I think have the right attitude. This is why I'm interested. Like I said, I'm interested in the subject of Satan and things like that is for personal reasons. It's like, I have to find out what is the proper way to criticize something without attacking it. It's like, I have to know that."
},
{
"end_time": 5107.551,
"index": 189,
"start_time": 5078.148,
"text": " It's the only way I can kind of get out of my situation is to understand that distinction. And this is why it's like important to me personally that the function of Satan is was created by God, you see, because that's how I could get out of some of the dilemmas that I'm in. It's like I have to know that there's a holy version of this function, which is the criticism. You see, there's a holy it can be done in holiness, this criticism, because if it can't, then"
},
{
"end_time": 5135.35,
"index": 190,
"start_time": 5108.712,
"text": " Then yeah, then there's no way out of, there's no way out of it. If you fall, you can't come back unless you just completely abandon what you've discovered. You see, because you don't want to abandon it. Sometimes you discover beautiful things outside of the system and then they become part of you. And then you don't want to abandon these things. And if you find a way to."
},
{
"end_time": 5164.77,
"index": 191,
"start_time": 5137.073,
"text": " Do it correctly. I think that's what you gotta do. You bring criticism. You bring questions in a good way. There's plenty of examples of this in the Bible. You see, I mean, there's so many examples. We're supposed to understand this stuff. There's example of criticism that's good. There's example of criticism that's bad. I mean, the story of Moses is a beautiful story where his sister of Moses, Miriam,"
},
{
"end_time": 5188.166,
"index": 192,
"start_time": 5165.162,
"text": " She criticizes Moses and she says she called him out because he had an Ethiopian, like a foreign wife. I think it's an Ethiopian wife. And then this is an example you see of criticism from his sister. And then it turns out that she was wrong. She wasn't doing it right."
},
{
"end_time": 5215.145,
"index": 193,
"start_time": 5188.933,
"text": " And then God punished her, basically gave her plagues and she was exiled from the camp because she was plagued all of a sudden. So how do you know if you're doing it right? I think I'm starting to figure it out. Like in the case of Miriam, she criticizes Moses and then she says, I'm a prophet too. She like wants to be recognized as a prophet legitimately on her own. So she says, I'm a prophet."
},
{
"end_time": 5242.619,
"index": 194,
"start_time": 5216.391,
"text": " And then she brings that along with the criticism of Moses, you see. So she had a will to power in what she was doing. She wanted to be a leader. She wanted to be recognized for her role as a prophet, like almost as a competition to Moses, you see. So that's why her criticism was wrong because she had a will to power. She wanted to be a leader. She wanted to lead. And that's why she was attacking Moses. That's the real reason."
},
{
"end_time": 5271.664,
"index": 195,
"start_time": 5243.148,
"text": " So you see that's, you can have, you can know if it's correct or not. If you have a will to power, then you're, you're, you are an enemy, like a bad satan, a fallen state. You're, you're, you're a true enemy if you're trying to get power over something. So you criticize it to get power. So that's what I'm trying not to do. I'm trying, I don't have a will to power. I actually literally don't. Um, so I think it's possible for me to do it the right way, do the criticism correctly."
},
{
"end_time": 5301.152,
"index": 196,
"start_time": 5272.21,
"text": " Because I'm not intending to attack or I'm not intending to start my own church, you see, start my own movement and then claim to be the real church, you know, or something like that. Claim to be, which is what many do, by the way, they have criticism and then they start their own movement and then they declare themselves the authentic real church. And then that's what you got to not do, you see, in my opinion. So let's."
},
{
"end_time": 5329.445,
"index": 197,
"start_time": 5301.271,
"text": " Part of what I had to understand at one point, you got to get rid of all these will, will to power type of desires that we all have. I mean, it's not like, it's not like we don't have this. It's very human to want to be, to want to have power over something, you know. So I kind of try to get rid of that. I think I am actually. So I think this is part of my pro you asking, how do you, how do I do it? You know, my process, this is part of it. Get getting rid of that."
},
{
"end_time": 5355.93,
"index": 198,
"start_time": 5330.145,
"text": " Will to power like you have to know what's your intentions when you criticize something. Am I trying to put myself above or am I just trying to help by asking a question that they don't have an answer to yet? And then maybe by my question, they will have an answer. And then maybe this answer was, will be very useful and very helpful for others, others who are not in the church actually."
},
{
"end_time": 5382.978,
"index": 199,
"start_time": 5356.698,
"text": " Maybe it will be useful for them to help them to understand certain truths that are difficult, you know. So yeah, that's what I'm doing. So unless you're a universalist, which I don't imagine you are, wouldn't you, whatever church you end up adopting, wouldn't you think in your mind this is the real church? Otherwise, why would you join it? Yeah, you have to think it's the real church. Yeah."
},
{
"end_time": 5413.558,
"index": 200,
"start_time": 5384.906,
"text": " That's part of the problem, isn't it? You have to join what you think is the real church. It is a problem. I don't know how to answer it. It's part of my problem, too. So you see, I don't know what to tell you. Yes. So that's part of my problem. I can't do it. I can't do it. I agree. I love the Catholic Church. I love the Orthodox Church. I love I love Protestants, too. Sorry, you know."
},
{
"end_time": 5442.619,
"index": 201,
"start_time": 5415.384,
"text": " See? So you said you love the Catholic Church and you like the Orthodox Church as well, but you love Protestants, not Protestantism. Well, because there's so many branches. You know, I don't know what to call it. Protestant churches. I see. There's lots. There's different branches. So I don't love all of them because I don't know all of them. But the ones I do know, you know, it's not maybe there's some errors in there somewhere."
},
{
"end_time": 5470.93,
"index": 202,
"start_time": 5443.916,
"text": " I still think they're Christians. Would you say that when you are attacking Christianity internally, that the attacks can come from a place of arrogance, but you would like it to come from a more functional place of humility? Maybe humility is not the right word, but a more functional place. Okay, firstly, is that what you would say? Yeah, a functional place in the sense that if I do this, if I"
},
{
"end_time": 5497.688,
"index": 203,
"start_time": 5471.374,
"text": " It's not if, it's doing it, it's not really my choice, but yeah, functional in the sense that it serves a purpose, it serves a higher purpose. To question things can serve a higher purpose. To criticize things can serve a higher purpose. So in that sense, functional, if that's what you mean. So yeah, you need humility to make your criticism functional instead of, and it's not just humility, it's also like,"
},
{
"end_time": 5529.172,
"index": 204,
"start_time": 5500.896,
"text": " Yeah, it is humility. But I mean, it's something to do with will to power. Something to do with that. It's like if you have any kind of will to power, then you're dangerous. What do you mean? You keep saying will to power. What do you mean by that? I mean, you want to have power. You want to be in a position of power. So let's say I have a criticism of the Catholic Church and then I say, you guys are wrong about this issue. And then"
},
{
"end_time": 5556.22,
"index": 205,
"start_time": 5529.889,
"text": " And I say, change your doctrine, let's say. I'm saying, change your doctrine about this issue. And then the Catholic Church is like, nope, sorry. We're not going to change our doctrine because we're right. Okay. And then I say, I'm going to start my own church. I would say that's a will to power. I would say, because I want to be in charge. I want to be a leader and I want my ideas to win. I want to win."
},
{
"end_time": 5586.613,
"index": 206,
"start_time": 5557.227,
"text": " I think if you don't want to win, you have more chance of winning, especially within the church. If you're not trying to win, you can win. I think that's the story of St. Francis is all about that. I think this is an example of someone who did it correctly. St. Francis of Assisi, he did the right thing. He had criticisms of the church in his time and he wanted to renew it. So he didn't attack the church. He didn't"
},
{
"end_time": 5611.237,
"index": 207,
"start_time": 5587.295,
"text": " Make demands. There you go. That's, that's the way to not do it. Make demands. He just did his thing and he went closer to nature. This is what he did. You see, I was, I was talking about that before he found nature again, because usually when we lose certain things, it's cause we'll lose our connection with reality and with nature."
},
{
"end_time": 5637.688,
"index": 208,
"start_time": 5612.108,
"text": " So we start thinking things that are kind of crazy and we're too strict about certain ideas that are actually not really important. And then one way to fix that is to go back to reality, go back to nature, and then you see what's real, what's important, what's real. The ideas that are actually important come out. They win. See, it's a competition of ideas. If you go back to nature, the real ideas will win the ideas that are real."
},
{
"end_time": 5662.534,
"index": 209,
"start_time": 5638.114,
"text": " Because nature will force you to have the right ideas, you see. Because in living closer to nature or being closer to nature, the problems that you'll face are the real ones. And so your solutions and your ideas will have to match or correspond to these problems. And so nature is telling you this idea that you have is bogus. Forget it. This idea that you have is"
},
{
"end_time": 5688.063,
"index": 210,
"start_time": 5662.858,
"text": " Is important and this other idea that you had but you thought was not important is actually the most important because now you're faced with reality and nature is telling you what's What's important and not I'm not saying everything all the answers come from nature. I'm saying the impetus of renewal comes from nature because you're faced with it you're faced with real things and then some issues become less important others become more and then that's a way to"
},
{
"end_time": 5716.92,
"index": 211,
"start_time": 5689.172,
"text": " Make it come back to reality. So I think this is what st. Francis did actually with It's related to the idea of the poor poor to dealing with poor people because that's one way to go back to reality you mingle with poor poor people and then suddenly you're faced with real issues because they're facing real issues, you know, they're struggling and They have real problems. You see what I'm saying? It's like they don't have Champagne problems, you know, they have real problems. So"
},
{
"end_time": 5746.493,
"index": 212,
"start_time": 5717.466,
"text": " If something becomes overly rich or overly status quo-ish, you encounter poor people and you'll start to see what's real and what's not. I'm not saying all the answers come from there, but renewal does. Renewal comes from dealing and seeing nature. When I say poor people, it's because it's related to the idea of nature. It's because when you're poor,"
},
{
"end_time": 5777.381,
"index": 213,
"start_time": 5747.517,
"text": " You're kind of in a state of... Dealing with real problems. I don't know how else to say. You don't have champagne problems, you have real problems. So those are real. The others are not real. So if your whole life is based around fake problems,"
},
{
"end_time": 5804.206,
"index": 214,
"start_time": 5777.722,
"text": " Then you start making laws that don't make sense. And if your life is based around real problems, then the laws that you make are real, you know. So I think St. Francis did that. He went back to nature. He started, you know, talking to the animals as he himself says. And then this, he didn't make any demands. He didn't say you're wrong and stuff like that. Or maybe he did, but he didn't make any demands. And like he won. You could say it worked."
},
{
"end_time": 5833.712,
"index": 215,
"start_time": 5804.974,
"text": " People who are listening may not be able to detect this, but if they're watching, they'll see that you're in nature, literally."
},
{
"end_time": 5862.21,
"index": 216,
"start_time": 5834.343,
"text": " I think you're the only guest that I've spoken to in nature. Now, you also have a symbolic view. So is nature, when we think of nature with our modern eyes, we think of nature as trees and deer and dirt. Is that what nature is to you? And is that why you are currently in nature? The reason I'm currently in nature is not on purpose. So you can't even ask me why I'm here."
},
{
"end_time": 5890.998,
"index": 217,
"start_time": 5862.21,
"text": " It's not by my own desire, you know, it's not like I choose. It's like my weird condition that I'm in. So, okay, but what do I mean by nature symbolically? It means more than, let's say, trees and things like that. It means that which is without a human will imposed upon it. That's what it means."
},
{
"end_time": 5916.92,
"index": 218,
"start_time": 5891.715,
"text": " That which is there, if there's no plan, impose on it. That's my definition of nature. So nature can mean different things. Like in the Bible, the biggest, strongest example of nature is water. Water represents the most pure idea of nature because water doesn't have a will of its own. It just descends low. It doesn't stand, you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 5942.841,
"index": 219,
"start_time": 5917.176,
"text": " Standing means you're going towards a purpose, right? You're standing. It's like you're building something towards a purpose. When something goes down, it falls to the bottom. It means that it has no will of its own. It just flows into whatever happens, happens. That's nature. It doesn't mean there's no laws governing it, but it means there's no artificial law. There's no artificial law that governs this region. That's called nature, I would say."
},
{
"end_time": 5965.282,
"index": 220,
"start_time": 5943.882,
"text": " That's how I define it. So in the Bible, the primordial nature, let's say, is the waters at the beginning because that's how it started. God created heaven and earth and then the earth was in this way. And the way it was is like it says in the Bible, darkness and water covered with water. So that's nature."
},
{
"end_time": 5994.514,
"index": 221,
"start_time": 5966.203,
"text": " And you can understand the symbolism, by the way, when I say nature is about renewal. Well, you can understand how water is about renewal. That's easy to understand. We use water to clean ourselves and it's about definitely about renewal. So it connects these two things. When I say nature, that's what I mean, because you're faced with reality. You're faced with on. An artificial reality, a reality that's there before you impose your will upon it."
},
{
"end_time": 6022.09,
"index": 222,
"start_time": 5995.759,
"text": " So that's what I mean by nature. I don't know if that helps, but. So a competition is an example of something that's trying to get close to nature. See, maybe that can help you understand what I mean by nature. Like if you do a competition, a real competition, let's say you do a martial arts competition. Different martial arts fight amongst each other. Let's say you do that kind of competition. Well, that's an example of trying to renew yourself. See?"
},
{
"end_time": 6051.954,
"index": 223,
"start_time": 6022.483,
"text": " Because you're doing a competition, it means you're not imposing, you're not deciding arbitrarily who's, who's the best or, and you're not also using any standard that you're imposing on it to say that this martial art is the best. You're letting them compete. Whoever wins in some sense, it's nature. It's nature that decide. Like when you do a competition, it's like you're, you're asking nature for, uh, to tell you what's the best. Right? Yes."
},
{
"end_time": 6081.254,
"index": 224,
"start_time": 6052.227,
"text": " See, so that's an example of what I mean by nature. It's, it's happening now. This is a process happening. It's in martial arts. It is happening. This, this process of returning to nature and it's interesting. Actually this idea of like MMA is an example, you know, but what's interesting, you have to understand all the symbolism of it because when you do that, when you go into nature like that, you end up expressing certain patterns. Okay."
},
{
"end_time": 6111.391,
"index": 225,
"start_time": 6081.869,
"text": " And one of the patterns that's being expressed in this MMA is it becomes a show, right? It becomes a show like a performance, almost theatrical. It's becoming more and more like WWE. I'm not saying the fights are fake, but the atmosphere in the, it's becoming like a show more. It's more becoming a show and less becoming a real competition. Let's just say like that. Okay. And that's part of it. It's part of returning to nature is."
},
{
"end_time": 6139.787,
"index": 226,
"start_time": 6111.783,
"text": " Encountering this Dance or the show It becomes more like a show. Oh, I thought you're gonna say you you would like to remove the pomp and circumstance No, I'm just saying it's no I'm just saying that's what happens because if you don't have a I see a guiding principle and you're just pure competition, okay What is the reason to do that? Okay, so one of the reasons is"
},
{
"end_time": 6152.892,
"index": 227,
"start_time": 6140.247,
"text": " Renewal of your martial arts"
},
{
"end_time": 6182.039,
"index": 228,
"start_time": 6153.899,
"text": " Everyone thinks their martial arts is the best, you know, that's how you got it, which is a good thing. It's not bad. It's not a bad thing to do that. It's like the church. Yes, you have to think yours is the best. Otherwise, what the heck are you doing there? You know, it's just logical. So, yeah, if you think your martial arts are the best, but then at one point you're like, maybe not. I have to look in the mirror now and see if this is really true. So how do you do that? You do a competition against other martial arts. Now you're in competition."
},
{
"end_time": 6203.541,
"index": 229,
"start_time": 6182.585,
"text": " Now let's say you end up figuring out that you're not good, actually. Other martial arts completely destroyed you. So now you're looking in the mirror and now you're like, oh, I thought I was this brilliant grandmaster. And now I look at reality. The competition is a mirror, you know. Now I see. Turns out."
},
{
"end_time": 6227.705,
"index": 230,
"start_time": 6204.428,
"text": " i suck you know and actually this is just any fight it doesn't have to be mma you just do a fight is to do that that it could be within a martial arts too you think you're a grand master okay fight with this guy here and then you get beaten that's a mirror to your face you know you saw yourself as a grand master before and now you see that you're not you know you just got beaten that's reality that's nature you know telling you"
},
{
"end_time": 6258.097,
"index": 231,
"start_time": 6228.592,
"text": " What you think and what is real is not the same. So yes. And then see, see what I was saying before. This is interesting. It's coming, bringing me back to what I was saying before, how this MMA thing is an example of the. What I was saying, the process of renewal, like the role of Eve is this case, something like this, the competition, the tournament, she's in charge of the tournament case. It's a feminine thing. Actually, I know MMA guys won't like what I'm saying, but"
},
{
"end_time": 6282.363,
"index": 232,
"start_time": 6258.473,
"text": " The principle of it is feminine. It's like democracy. It's like democracy. You do a competition. I'm not going to say this guy is the king arbitrarily. I'm going to do a competition and this will determine the king and this will determine that which will renew. Okay, so if you have an ancient martial arts and you're so sure that you're the best, you do a tournament competition against other martial arts and then you"
},
{
"end_time": 6305.111,
"index": 233,
"start_time": 6283.626,
"text": " You either get defeated or not, whatever, it depends on the situation, but now what I was going to say is this too can be corrupted. This process can be corrupt, just like democracy can be corrupted. The thing that's supposed to stop corruption and supposed to renew can also be corrupt. So, for example, a fight can be fixed, right?"
},
{
"end_time": 6333.626,
"index": 234,
"start_time": 6306.408,
"text": " That's an example of a corruption of this process. A tournament can be fixed. It can be falsely arbitered. The person who is deciding a fight can be paid by one of the sides. I'm just giving examples of how this too can be corrupt. You see? So you got to be careful on both sides because you can create a fake tournament as well. You can create a tournament that's actually geared"
},
{
"end_time": 6361.493,
"index": 235,
"start_time": 6333.968,
"text": " towards preferential of certain martial arts, you see. You could do a tournament that's not neutral. Because this is a simulation of nature. It's not actual nature, you know. Actual nature doesn't like have preference of certain groups. But if you do a tournament, you're trying to emulate what nature does, you know. But you might get it wrong. You might do the rules in a certain way that advantages some martial arts, disadvantages others."
},
{
"end_time": 6377.756,
"index": 236,
"start_time": 6362.227,
"text": " What if my martial arts is all about poking in the eye?"
},
{
"end_time": 6395.486,
"index": 237,
"start_time": 6378.012,
"text": " I found out the best way to defeat an opponent is to poke them in the eye. And now I'm doing MMA and you're telling me you're not allowed to poke in the eye. Okay, so you do have rules. You do have rules. It's not a real competition to determine which martial art is the best. But I understand why they have these rules. I mean, you can't have people"
},
{
"end_time": 6425.026,
"index": 238,
"start_time": 6395.486,
"text": " Dying you know losing their eyes and I understand but this I'm just saying this too can be corrupt and this too can lose its function which is a function of renewal and part of what happens to with this renewal stuff is Things get mixed up and see so martial arts get mixed wait. Sorry. What are the renewals here? Are you saying the fact that some things are off-limits and then the changing of the rules that's an example I'm saying of this process of"
},
{
"end_time": 6454.138,
"index": 239,
"start_time": 6425.776,
"text": " Returning to nature like a competition. Okay, that too can be corrupt. That's all I'm saying like this Compete a competition could have rules that are not I so got it that advantage some martial arts and not others That's what I'm saying. Like if you say you're not allowed to poke someone in the eye Well, what if my martial arts is all about poking people in the eye, you see? Yes. Yes or bring whatever knife you want Yeah, I can't win this tournament, but maybe in real life I would poke you in the eye and you'd be finished you see so"
},
{
"end_time": 6479.138,
"index": 240,
"start_time": 6454.599,
"text": " The competition has to be as neutral as it can be which is almost impossible because this is what I was saying is actually interesting because part of this is things happen when you do renewal that you don't necessarily want to happen but it's part of the process like mixing of things so it's called mixed martial arts because it makes the styles"
},
{
"end_time": 6501.647,
"index": 241,
"start_time": 6479.616,
"text": " Is that good? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe that's bad too. It couldn't be bad. It can be bad. It's not necessarily good. It can lead to be a worse type of martial arts if you mix certain things into it. Who knows? I mean, it's not maybe the future will know, but it could lead to losing some things that are actually very meaningful."
},
{
"end_time": 6531.357,
"index": 242,
"start_time": 6502.108,
"text": " Because you try to just be the best at fighting, you know, there's other aspects to martial arts. It's not just about winning, you know, there's transmission of certain knowledge through forums and things. And that is not just about winning competition. But still, I'm not even criticizing the idea of doing a competition of different martial. I think this is you have to do this at one point, otherwise that all the different kinds of martial arts get big heads and they they think they're just better than everyone else. And then it's like, you got to have this confrontation."
},
{
"end_time": 6555.964,
"index": 243,
"start_time": 6532.278,
"text": " But it becomes OK. So what happens is this is part of what happens just naturally. It becomes a show. Because you can do it to find out what's the best martial arts, but you can also lose that impetus, lose the reason why you were doing the competition in the first place. And then what happens is it becomes a show. It becomes a"
},
{
"end_time": 6575.299,
"index": 244,
"start_time": 6557.295,
"text": " The purpose for it, it has changed. Let's say it becomes about making money. Let's say, for example, then it doesn't serve its purpose anymore. It's not about determining the best martial arts. It's about making money. So all of a sudden, this is when maybe you start changing the rules in a way that's not the best."
},
{
"end_time": 6605.247,
"index": 245,
"start_time": 6575.811,
"text": " Because you can't make money and you can't do a show if people get their eyes poked out on every fight, or if people break their legs on every fight, or if some people die literally in a fight, which is actually could actually probably happen often if they did let them loose. Some people would die. I'm betting. I mean, you can get kicked in the head and they're in the wrong way. You die. Okay. So this, they have to put in rules to not have this happen, but why? Because."
},
{
"end_time": 6631.613,
"index": 246,
"start_time": 6605.93,
"text": " It's a show. It is a show. It's show business. It's not just a competition to determine the best martial arts. I'm saying it's like, I'm giving examples of how things can become corrupt of what their original function was. If the original function of this tournament was to determine the best martial art, then you got to be careful what you do. You got to be careful not to have this original impetus replaced by another one. Like, for example, to make a show."
},
{
"end_time": 6661.357,
"index": 247,
"start_time": 6632.039,
"text": " Because making a show is not the same. And then you said symbolically this is related to the feminine how? It's related to the feminine in the sense that the role of the feminine is to renew forms of things to renew them. OK, renew them in the sense that you got a system. The system doesn't it just performs what it does. OK, it's like it has it has blind spots because it has some rules that it follows. Is renewing the same as updating? Yes."
},
{
"end_time": 6679.991,
"index": 248,
"start_time": 6662.312,
"text": " Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Updating, improving is hopefully improving. Updating is definitely a way to see it. Like renovation. Renovation is a way to say. Actually, I would imagine updating to be a subset of renewal. And the reason I say that is let's just take an analogy with"
},
{
"end_time": 6697.671,
"index": 249,
"start_time": 6680.213,
"text": " Windows or some specific program in Windows you then update it to the version 2.0 then you update it to 3.0 but then at some point that whole application may become obsolete and you have to transition to a new application and I imagine that transitioning to a new app would still be a renewal but it's not technically an update."
},
{
"end_time": 6726.357,
"index": 250,
"start_time": 6698.08,
"text": " Yeah, it's still a renewal because it's basically the same system. Let's be honest. I mean, when they do, when they do new windows, it's still the same basic idea. It's still the same basic patterns. I mean, they could call it an update if they want it. Let's be honest. I mean, it might be, the coding might be changed, but the, the idea and the structures of windows hasn't changed that much since the, since a while, you know? So yeah, it's, so yeah, updating is a part of renewal. Another part is just cleaning."
},
{
"end_time": 6751.647,
"index": 251,
"start_time": 6727.278,
"text": " Cleaning the errors that accumulate because systems accumulate errors, you know. And it's like cleaning that from the system, making sure that the system has not hardened into things that are not important or false. That's like more like washing with water. It's more like washing yourself, you know. And then the updating is improvement. You got to also try to improve systems, you know. Otherwise, what's the point?"
},
{
"end_time": 6778.882,
"index": 252,
"start_time": 6752.21,
"text": " So the improvement is what I call the crown. When I said it's a crown, I meant that, exactly that, improvement. Because improvement means going higher than I was before. So it's like you're giving a crown to something when you try to improve it. Now what about optimization? Yeah, that's part of it. Would that be more symbolically, in your view, masculine, feminine, neither? I'd say that's a little bit more masculine, actually."
},
{
"end_time": 6804.991,
"index": 253,
"start_time": 6779.718,
"text": " Because you're trying to be efficient, you're trying to do the best that the system can do. I'd call that more masculine, actually. And the renewal is more about when a system doesn't look at itself anymore. And then it kind of doesn't... Yeah, it hardens itself into a position."
},
{
"end_time": 6829.428,
"index": 254,
"start_time": 6805.452,
"text": " And if the position is wrong, that's the worst possible outcome, right? But even if it's just a hardening that never improves, at one point, you got to start improving. Otherwise, I mean, you don't want to stay the same forever. You want to improve. That should be obvious. But the thing is, it's always a dangerous process when you do that, when you try to. There's a dangerous element to all this, you know?"
},
{
"end_time": 6855.691,
"index": 255,
"start_time": 6830.162,
"text": " Like MMA is an example because who knows if that's going to be beneficial in the long term to all the different martial arts. I don't know. We'll know in the future. Maybe it will destroy all the martial arts through its mixing, you know, through its hybridization of martial arts. Maybe it will end up destroying them because I don't know. I'm just saying it's a possibility because maybe in each one of these branches of martial arts,"
},
{
"end_time": 6882.056,
"index": 256,
"start_time": 6856.135,
"text": " There are some part of it that is meant to preserve the branch, the form of it. And then if you get rid of that, then you think you've improved it, but maybe in the long run it'll just disappear. It'll just go away because you removed something important of it that was meant to preserve things. And then the impetus of preservation is now gone. And now it just becomes"
},
{
"end_time": 6906.237,
"index": 257,
"start_time": 6882.995,
"text": " It's the season for all your holiday favorites. Like a very Jonas Christmas movie and Home Alone on Disney Plus."
},
{
"end_time": 6928.729,
"index": 258,
"start_time": 6907.125,
"text": " Then Hulu has National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. We're all in for a very big Christmas treat. All of these and more streaming this holiday season. And right now, stay big with our special Black Friday offer. Bundle Disney Plus and Hulu for just $4.99 a month for one year. Savings compared to current regular monthly price. Ends 12-one. Offer for ad-supported Disney Plus Hulu bundle only. Then $12.99 a month or then current regular monthly price. 18-plus terms apply."
},
{
"end_time": 6955.998,
"index": 259,
"start_time": 6928.729,
"text": " Addition to our martial arts it was a superficial one that for a moment there it looked like a really powerful way to defeat an opponent but it was only because it was new because when you fight you know you encounter new new new techniques you can get defeated by a new technique. But that doesn't mean it's better it's necessarily superior to you because if you just learn that technique it could take you a couple of weeks and then next time i fight you you better be careful cuz i'm done know i know that move that you did."
},
{
"end_time": 6984.002,
"index": 260,
"start_time": 6956.374,
"text": " You see, so in the long run, sometimes you can get defeated by something new, but that doesn't mean it's a permanent. It doesn't mean permanently that you lost to this opponent. You have to have a few competitions before you could decide that because new things can surprise you. But as soon as you know them, it's like you're not going to fool me twice, you know. So the next time we fight, maybe you'll you'll get completely crushed because now I know your little trick, you know, your little movement."
},
{
"end_time": 7014.77,
"index": 261,
"start_time": 6984.855,
"text": " Not everything new is good. Sometimes new things are just temporarily going to win. That's how you can see it. They're good for a moment. They win this moment. But then they're not going to win in the long term and other conditions will occur where your new addition will be like a weakness for you. And then you maybe you'll just lose completely and you'll be finished. So you got to be careful when you do this updating stuff. You can't just always see I'm trying to give them"
},
{
"end_time": 7043.046,
"index": 262,
"start_time": 7015.486,
"text": " I was saying how the renewal thing is not perfect either. You gotta be careful. There's many things to be careful about. It's not just because something is new and better for now that it will be useful in the long term. Sometimes you can add something that looks better now, but in the long term will cause all kinds of problems in ways that you don't even know because you haven't tested it yet. It hasn't been tested by time, let's say. So this is why tradition, you can't just always transform things. You gotta"
},
{
"end_time": 7067.295,
"index": 263,
"start_time": 7043.643,
"text": " There's a wisdom to the ancient knowledge. Why is it like this? Why do why our ancestors do this for so many hundreds and thousands of years? And then you come up with a new way of thinking. You don't just replace this ancient thing with this new idea, even though now in this moment, it seems better. You just got to be careful with that stuff, you know, because you end up you can end up destroying yourself with things like that, you know."
},
{
"end_time": 7088.78,
"index": 264,
"start_time": 7067.91,
"text": " Hi everyone, hope you're enjoying today's episode. If you're hungry for deeper dives into physics, AI, consciousness, philosophy, along with my personal reflections, you'll find it all on my sub stack. Subscribers get first access to new episodes, new posts as well, behind the scenes insights, and the chance to be a part of a thriving community of like-minded pilgrimers."
},
{
"end_time": 7117.688,
"index": 265,
"start_time": 7088.78,
"text": " Early in this conversation you mentioned Tamar and that plenty of your project is to make sense of Tamar as"
},
{
"end_time": 7147.739,
"index": 266,
"start_time": 7117.995,
"text": " An adumbration of Satan a connection to Satan. What was it? Yeah, well really it's at first it was about differentiating That the way what she does, which is a good Fruitful and useful criticism right of in that case is Judah. Okay, it's like Judah Did something wrong and then she's like there to renew his lineage basically us his lineage is dying off so"
},
{
"end_time": 7178.148,
"index": 267,
"start_time": 7148.148,
"text": " she's there to renew him but she does it in a really weird way where she like tricks him you know she disguises herself as a prostitute and she kind of tricks him but in that story so if i had let's say we don't want to get into too many details because like i could talk about this storage for hours so it's not a good idea so um let's say she does a renewal process of juda in a very deceptive way but it's presented as good so it tells you that there is a"
},
{
"end_time": 7206.732,
"index": 268,
"start_time": 7178.387,
"text": " aspect of this which is can be done correctly which is a tricking someone or something like that in a way where it's done correctly and it's not just tomorrow later I this is the first story that hit me but later I realized that that there's many stories like that in the Bible they're just a little bit more subtle Rebecca is an example there's many stories where there's a trick by the woman basically and the trick is there to"
},
{
"end_time": 7233.695,
"index": 269,
"start_time": 7207.295,
"text": " Renew something that was dying or dead or it's about resurrection really. So is the story of Ruth. Okay, so the story of Ruth is really about resurrecting a fallen lineage and the story of Tamar is also about that. So the idea is when you read the story it looks what she does looks almost evil. It looks like almost like I was saying kind of satanic, you know, but"
},
{
"end_time": 7251.203,
"index": 270,
"start_time": 7234.582,
"text": " This is the first story that hit me. I saw how similar this was to my idea of what Satan is. So I had to distinguish between Satan and Tamar, let's say. Why is it okay what she's doing and why is it not okay when we see this type of subversion in other systems?"
},
{
"end_time": 7281.92,
"index": 271,
"start_time": 7252.022,
"text": " So there's many answers. I'm obviously not going to get into it here, but that was the premise of my problem in the first place. But then later I found many, many answers in the Bible in so many places where it's about that problem of criticism, constructive criticism and updating, the idea of updating, the dangers of doing so, the dangers of updating, but also the characteristics of this whole process. I mean, there's interestingly, there's many stories that most, these are stories that people don't get, by the way. This is what I noticed."
},
{
"end_time": 7311.408,
"index": 272,
"start_time": 7282.483,
"text": " Look, I'll give you just an example, let's say quickly, of a story that's really relevant to what we've been talking about recently. And it's a story that I don't see anyone understanding. It's the story of, it's Jacob that takes three branches from three species of trees and then he strips the bark and then he puts them in water. And then the sheep multiply when they drink that water. Okay. The water that was the three sticks in."
},
{
"end_time": 7338.575,
"index": 273,
"start_time": 7312.159,
"text": " And then the idea is that he's making a flock for himself. He's making a new flock out of an old flock. But the symbolism that's there is very similar to the symbolism that we're talking about when I talk about MMA and such. He's taking three branches. This means in the case of MMA, that would be three styles of fighting, let's say three schools that are completely separate, really. And then he's removing the bark."
},
{
"end_time": 7355.299,
"index": 274,
"start_time": 7339.172,
"text": " Making them like naked, you know going back to the essentials of it and then putting that in water mixing all that these essences of these different martial arts in water and then making the sheep drink that water and that renews it creates a new flock for him. Okay."
},
{
"end_time": 7384.497,
"index": 275,
"start_time": 7355.538,
"text": " So it's just an example of a story in the Bible that not many people understand. But actually, if you understand certain patterns, it's really easy to understand. It's quite literally a description of what I was talking about with MMA. Different styles that are mixed together in a way to create something new. So it is about renewal. This is why it's about drinking water. Because drinking water is related to the grail in renewal. Drinking is about renewal. And it's just an example of a story that pretty much nobody understands. But it's actually quite obvious when you understand certain ideas."
},
{
"end_time": 7401.749,
"index": 276,
"start_time": 7384.872,
"text": " And actually that story, if you know the story of Tamar, you can know that those two stories are almost the same because what Tamar does is she takes three sons of Judah. These are like three branches in a tree of descendants, offspring, and then she"
},
{
"end_time": 7427.773,
"index": 277,
"start_time": 7402.312,
"text": " Okay, now you said"
},
{
"end_time": 7452.961,
"index": 278,
"start_time": 7428.046,
"text": " Most people don't understand this story so how is it that you're able to understand it. What is it that makes you different that you're able to see the symbolic connections. And is it something that can be achieved by other people is this just a matter of orientation or. Openness or something else like gratitude and once you have that then."
},
{
"end_time": 7476.664,
"index": 279,
"start_time": 7453.541,
"text": " More of the Bible or more of symbolism makes sense like what is it about you that allows you to see this when most other people don't? Why it starts it starts by admitting that you don't know that's the first that's the first thing that Not many people are willing to do admitting to yourself that I don't know what this means. Let's be honest. I don't know instead of wanting to look confident, let's say"
},
{
"end_time": 7503.473,
"index": 280,
"start_time": 7476.971,
"text": " And then talking about this thing that you don't know just so that you have some kind of authority over others. For example, I'm not saying that's what everyone does, but some people do that. Admitting that you don't know and then just that is already a start. And then I would say what I call, like I said before, rumination is the idea is because these are simple things that the reason we can't see them is because you don't have the right patterns in your mind to interpret reality. You're not using the right patterns."
},
{
"end_time": 7529.292,
"index": 281,
"start_time": 7503.865,
"text": " And one way to get those patterns is to think more concretely, I would say, and think in terms of reality instead of abstractions. Because you see, when I give the example of MMA, it's kind of obvious that that's kind of what it's talking about, the story of Jacob with the three branches bringing them together and putting the essence in the water and then creating a new flock for himself. It's easy to understand what that means once you have the right"
},
{
"end_time": 7558.524,
"index": 282,
"start_time": 7529.735,
"text": " Patterns of Interpretation. I mean, a lot of it is in my book, a lot of these patterns, but they need to be used to look at reality. You see, you can't just study these patterns for themselves. They're supposed to be lenses through which you perceive reality. So me, in my mind, I have this idea of a tree. A tree represents specialization of species, something like that. I don't know in English the word. When you specialize, you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 7587.995,
"index": 283,
"start_time": 7558.899,
"text": " You create different branches. You specialize into some direction. This is what we do. I mean, this is how things grow. And so to me, because I'm using these patterns, now when I see him taking different branches and mixing them in water, it's all immediately obvious what it means. It's like I have the right categories, basically is what I'm saying. I have the right categories to understand some of these stories."
},
{
"end_time": 7614.445,
"index": 284,
"start_time": 7588.319,
"text": " And in order to get the right categories, this is what's difficult. You have to first know that you don't know and then gradually try to see what their patterns are. What are the important patterns? They're in the Bible. I mean, you just see what's there. It tells you. If someone asks me, Haji, why do you take heaven and earth as a pattern of interpretation for the Bible? Well, it starts with that in the Bible."
},
{
"end_time": 7644.582,
"index": 285,
"start_time": 7615.077,
"text": " God created heaven and earth. Boom. That tells you right there, this is the most important pattern that you should use to interpret these stories. But there's others. There's the tree. See, so there's lots of trees in the Bible because it means something. If you have these correct patterns, then you can read the story and interpret them correctly. But it takes time just to because it takes time to learn a language. It's basically learning a language. So so if you ask me what what's specific about me? Nothing, really. I just may be patient a little bit."
},
{
"end_time": 7673.439,
"index": 286,
"start_time": 7645.333,
"text": " Maybe that's it, I guess. Patience. So would you then say that you don't actually start from the axiom of God created heaven and earth. You start from the axiom of the Bible is not wrong about itself for sure. And then you get that axiom from your experience because other people may just say, well, how do you know the Bible is not wrong? And then you mentioned that you had your own experience. Yeah, well, it's not about being right or wrong. It's about"
},
{
"end_time": 7704.787,
"index": 287,
"start_time": 7674.838,
"text": " It's telling you what to use to understand it. It's like a primer telling you what's the what. It's like a key, a cipher, you know, it's not about right or wrong. You want to understand this thing. You need this cipher. And then if you apply the cipher to this code, you understand it. It's like a code that you decode. It's not there's no right or wrong. It's about using the right lens to view something. And then when you look at it through that lens, it becomes obvious. It becomes meaningful. So is it right? Is it wrong? I mean, it's"
},
{
"end_time": 7727.261,
"index": 288,
"start_time": 7705.026,
"text": " You see what i'm saying there's different this is interesting yes it's yes so how does one know when one's using an interpretation that's correct versus an arbitrary one so in your cipher case you could actually apply any deciphering mechanism to some zip file on the computer and it could look like gibberish but then a human would have to look at it and then"
},
{
"end_time": 7753.422,
"index": 289,
"start_time": 7727.671,
"text": " Note oh that one is actually not gibberish that one has meaning to it but to the computer all of its gibberish there's no actual interpretation to the computer so it's not so clear so for you how do you know when you're interpreting something correctly or when one it's like someone else is interpreting something correctly versus well just falsely or arbitrarily i i could tell you my criteria i don't know if i'm right about it or not but uh"
},
{
"end_time": 7780.64,
"index": 290,
"start_time": 7753.968,
"text": " I used to two things i use reality and i use the bible so i use mostly let's say we're talking about how to understand the bible i i i look at a story and then i use a certain lens to interpret it okay if this same lens can be used to interpret many many many other stories. Then it's decent decent that i'm using if i just use just interpret this one specific story."
},
{
"end_time": 7799.855,
"index": 291,
"start_time": 7781.067,
"text": " It doesn't help me to interpret anything else it's probably not really that important what i'm doing is probably not that significant but if i find a way to interpret one story and it applies to other stories that's a good sign that by with the same it's like science right i mean you find an equation that explains gravity."
},
{
"end_time": 7826.152,
"index": 292,
"start_time": 7801.374,
"text": " You see a lot of different phenomenon in nature that's being explained by this formula here that you discovered, this equation that, let's say, describes gravity, let's say, an example. So you see a lot of different phenomena, celestial phenomena, phenomena on Earth that is now being described by this simple formula. That's how you know it's useful and it's valid. If it only explains one thing, who cares?"
},
{
"end_time": 7852.227,
"index": 293,
"start_time": 7826.92,
"text": " It's about generalizing your knowledge towards simple things. And these simple things can explain many, many, many things. So that's my criteria. So I kind of gave you an example here of I said I talk about trees. Just the fact that I can interpret the story of Jacob and putting the branches in the water and creating a new flock and the story of Tamar with exactly the same pattern. So here it's branches of a tree and here it's branches of a"
},
{
"end_time": 7880.845,
"index": 294,
"start_time": 7852.892,
"text": " Like a family tree, right? In the case of Judah, she mixes those branches in a way, she confuses them and she creates a new flaw. So just that is an example of using the same pattern to interpret two stories and all of a sudden these two stories make sense. But I mean, I have many, many such examples, you know, I'm giving two here, but that's my criteria if it explains a lot. So if you have a cipher in a text and it explains just part of the text, the cipher is probably not good."
},
{
"end_time": 7907.363,
"index": 295,
"start_time": 7881.237,
"text": " Okay, so the counter argument would be threefold. One is that you have to have repeatability, falsifiability, and protect yourself against patterns being overfitted. So my understanding of what you're saying is, look, the overfittedness we can actually throw out because"
},
{
"end_time": 7932.619,
"index": 296,
"start_time": 7907.619,
"text": " You've established your template from a subset of the stories in the Bible and then you notice that they start to apply to others. It's not that you've looked at every single one and thought what pattern fits all of these at once. You can't even hold that all in your head. So you can't technically overfit the Bible. Am I correct so far or no? Well, there's many, many, many implications to these patterns. That's the thing. So it actually does."
},
{
"end_time": 7962.944,
"index": 297,
"start_time": 7933.131,
"text": " can be used simple simple patterns can be used to explain a whole lot of stories but just like a few axioms can produce all of all of the theorems of mathematics it's not because something simple that doesn't have a lot of implications so some simple things have no implications some simple things have a lot of implications and i'm trying to use patterns that have a lot of implications and so because of that it can be used to interpret many many stories but like you said"
},
{
"end_time": 7992.176,
"index": 298,
"start_time": 7963.387,
"text": " There is a problem of imposing a pattern onto a story and being wrong, obviously. Yeah, you can always be wrong about when you try to understand something that's never going to go away. But my criteria is what I said. I mean, I'm not purposely trying to force, you know, that's like I have the same concern as you. I want to make sure I'm not forcing. Which is why it takes me a long time, because I'm trying to make sure that I'm not doing that, you see. Here's something that"
},
{
"end_time": 8015.435,
"index": 299,
"start_time": 7992.602,
"text": " I imagine is false. So when you were speaking, you were saying that the void is what is lacking in plan. Perhaps that's a sufficient condition, but not necessary. It doesn't matter. Heaven has to do with a plan and somehow standing upright has to do with a plan. And then I was thinking, and I didn't say this out loud, but I thought, okay, perhaps"
},
{
"end_time": 8044.275,
"index": 300,
"start_time": 8015.862,
"text": " If a plan is connected to us people and we are standing more upright, is that the symbolic reason we stand on two legs rather than an animal, which is close to the ground on fours? However, I then corrected myself in my head because I noticed trees behind you and a tree stands taller than us. But I don't imagine you would say that a tree has more plans than us. So was my analysis of well, was my symbolism of of us walking on two legs versus four off?"
},
{
"end_time": 8063.933,
"index": 301,
"start_time": 8044.735,
"text": " Or is there no symbolism to that? Is it just a brute fact of nature? Yeah, no, there's symbolism. I mean, there's something to understand in it for sure. I mean, you always have to, well, you're doing it, but I was going to say you always have to compare things in order to have meaning. So yeah, if you compare a dog to a human, you could say,"
},
{
"end_time": 8081.101,
"index": 302,
"start_time": 8064.377,
"text": " We're standing upright is kind of a sign of intelligence. It literally is. I mean, it's not just accidental. I think that humans are more intelligent. It does have something to do with the fact that we're we have this position. We're not looking at the ground all the time. You know, we're not the face down in the"
},
{
"end_time": 8110.333,
"index": 303,
"start_time": 8082.005,
"text": " In the grass, you know, it's, it's hard to be smart when you're faced down in the grass. Seriously. Um, so it does relate, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to become like kind of absurd in your application of it. Like, Oh, giraffes are therefore more intelligent than humans. No, I mean, you don't have to go into directions like that. I mean, you just use your, use your brain. I mean, that's the people who wrote the stories. Right. Create a certain syntax for you to understand certain things. You can always."
},
{
"end_time": 8131.886,
"index": 304,
"start_time": 8110.794,
"text": " Create another narrative and then in that narrative things don't make sense. You see the people who wrote these stories are intelligent. They know what they want to communicate. So they they're not going to put a giraffe if they're trying to communicate to you like for example in this story of actually being really tall is not necessarily good in terms of the Bible the Giants."
},
{
"end_time": 8155.606,
"index": 305,
"start_time": 8132.329,
"text": " Are taller than men, but they're seen as not superior to men. They're seen as fallen. So that kind of answers that question. But it's not necessarily just about being high or being low. It's about being properly connected, the high and the low. Some things are really high, but they can be falsely connected to reality. Like you can have a really high interpretation of reality, but it doesn't match with facts."
},
{
"end_time": 8168.456,
"index": 306,
"start_time": 8156.561,
"text": " And so that falls apart. It's not solid. So it's not just about being high or low. You can have a really high plan but not being able to implement it. That's not good. So sometimes it's better to be small."
},
{
"end_time": 8197.09,
"index": 307,
"start_time": 8169.172,
"text": " Is the symbolism something that can only be applied to stories or narratives, but not to say data such as what I just gave was an example of data. At least I would call it that. Humans walk on two legs, animals walk on four. Roughly speaking, I would consider that data and not a story. So is the reason for the failure of applying the planning having upright connection to what I just said, is it because what I said was data and not a story? I would not interpret it on data."
},
{
"end_time": 8222.415,
"index": 308,
"start_time": 8197.585,
"text": " Honestly, I would interpret it only with stories because stories have a syntax. It's like words on their own don't have much meaning. If I say a ball, what's a ball? Am I talking about a rubber ball or a costume ball? It's just a word without syntax. It has a lot of weird meanings to it. The word ball doesn't mean much if you don't have a"
},
{
"end_time": 8252.176,
"index": 309,
"start_time": 8223.166,
"text": " something next to it to make sure that we know what we're saying it's kind of the same thing here it has meaning but it's not as precise if i say you know there's a ball what does that mean you don't know until i i add another word next to it you don't know until i put it in some kind of context so is it correct for me to if you say there's a ball over there is it correct for me to think that you're talking about a rubber ball maybe i shouldn't jump to conclusion so quickly it's kind of the same thing you know"
},
{
"end_time": 8279.821,
"index": 310,
"start_time": 8252.449,
"text": " The stories are meant to help you make sure that you have the proper interpretation by with syntax and with other symbols next to them to fortify a meaning kind of like a sentence in the English language. The words have vague meaning until you put them in a sentence. Now for the diagrams in your previous book, which I will place on spreen the language of creation. Are there any rules or diagrams in that book that you now reject or have updated?"
},
{
"end_time": 8310.06,
"index": 311,
"start_time": 8280.247,
"text": " And we'll be in your next book or at least as in your mind as updated. There's not much update updating. It's more like finding more implications. It's more like that because the patterns that I talk about are extremely general generalized, you know, they have a lot of implications. Like, for example, look, I'll give you a clear example of what I'm saying. I want to write a book about dreams. Okay."
},
{
"end_time": 8336.442,
"index": 312,
"start_time": 8311.015,
"text": " And what I understand about dreams is already in my first book. It's like, I think it's chapter 65 or something. It's called the symbolism of dreams in exile or something like that, sleeping in exile. I'm not sure exactly the title, but all the patterns are there. So if someone wants to know what I'm going to talk about, let's say in a book, if I write, if I manage to write it about dreams, you just read that chapter, it's all there, but many implications."
},
{
"end_time": 8366.971,
"index": 313,
"start_time": 8337.09,
"text": " see because real knowledge is about having principles and many examples to you know to make sense of it because our mind works with with examples right I mean if you don't have any implications of it it's kind of meaning it's kind of not real knowledge you have to have examples so if I write let's say a book about dreams which which is something I wanted to write even before I wrote my book actually this is something really I decided a long time ago I want to write a book about dreams but then I kind of gave up on the idea because I realized"
},
{
"end_time": 8395.06,
"index": 314,
"start_time": 8367.773,
"text": " I would need hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of examples of dreams in order to have enough material to kind of prove what I'm saying or to kind of have enough explanation of it. I think I actually say that in Chapter 65, I say it would take many, many examples to actually make sense of this pattern, which are dreams. So to answer your question, it's about going more into detail."
},
{
"end_time": 8424.616,
"index": 315,
"start_time": 8395.776,
"text": " into the implications of the patterns that I talk about in my first book. So that's what I'm doing basically. I wouldn't change. There's one thing I might change, but I'm not sure because I'm still working on it. It's the true knowledge of good and bad that I'm still working on and always probably will be working on. I described it the way I understood it back then. I think I'm not wrong, but I need to work on the implications of it. I have to find many, many examples in the Bible."
},
{
"end_time": 8453.439,
"index": 316,
"start_time": 8425.196,
"text": " of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, what does it mean? Because even though it doesn't say explicitly in the Bible, like this is about the tree of knowledge of good and bad, there's many examples of it. So if I have many examples, then I can kind of prove myself, you know, what I'm saying about what that is, the tree of knowledge of good and bad. So I've found since then many examples. Eventually, I would like to talk about just that, the true knowledge of good and bad, but that's way off right now in my mind. I have other things that I'm working on."
},
{
"end_time": 8483.643,
"index": 317,
"start_time": 8455.111,
"text": " Is there a reason that in the Bible, God has a different relationship to heaven than he does to earth? Why does God have a different relationship to heaven than he does to earth? Well, in some way, he has the same relationship because it's both below him, you know, in a sense. They don't have the same function, but for God, they have a similar relationship in the sense that they're both"
},
{
"end_time": 8514.445,
"index": 318,
"start_time": 8486.749,
"text": " It's like if you say, you know, I have a hammer and a screwdriver, you know, I don't have the same relationship to these two things, but in a sense, I do have the same relationship. You know, it's not exactly the same, but they're both tools for me to use. They're not the same tool. I don't use them the same way. But in another sense, in a more general sense, I have the same relationship to these objects. They're both tools to me. I can explain what I mean from my layman understanding. God is identified in heaven."
},
{
"end_time": 8544.582,
"index": 319,
"start_time": 8515.009,
"text": " But God is not identified on earth, at least if he is, it's in a finite time, whereas heaven, it's atemporal or infinite. Yeah. Okay. So what's the question? Why? So why? Because, because God is, when God is on earth, he has to be small and weak."
},
{
"end_time": 8570.93,
"index": 320,
"start_time": 8544.94,
"text": " Otherwise, we die. That's the answer. Because it's too big, we can't handle it. So God has to manifest in a way that is not forceful to us, which God has to manifest in a meek way, in a small way. Like in the ark, let's say, God goes on top of the ark. It's all contained in a way so that it's not dangerous because otherwise,"
},
{
"end_time": 8600.111,
"index": 321,
"start_time": 8571.271,
"text": " This thing that created or this being that created the universe is dangerous, obviously, right? It's like infinite power, infinite knowledge. Let's say infinite information, infinite power. I don't want to see that. I don't want to see that. I don't want to. You see, I don't want to die. I'm going to die if I see that. So you don't want to see God and it is all his greatness. You want to see. You want to know essentially what God is. You don't want to see the full power and the full thing, you know."
},
{
"end_time": 8627.79,
"index": 322,
"start_time": 8600.742,
"text": " I don't know if that makes sense, but to me it seems obvious like it's dangerous. God is dangerous. It's dangerous. Anything big is dangerous. Anything powerful is dangerous. So there you go. It's not just a case of God. You know, if I want to learn about a dinosaur, I don't want to see a gigantic dinosaur in front of me. I'd rather see a replica of a dinosaur in a museum or maybe a film about a dinosaur. You know, it's kind of that kind of thing, you know."
},
{
"end_time": 8656.357,
"index": 323,
"start_time": 8628.37,
"text": " But in the case of God, it's the real presence of God still, but God is able to lower himself, make himself small, which says a lot about God in itself, that God is willing to do that, to limit himself for our knowledge. It says a lot about what God is, really. God is dangerous. Do you think that that's related to"
},
{
"end_time": 8683.951,
"index": 324,
"start_time": 8656.817,
"text": " Some of what you've been going through. I know we're tiptoeing around it, but hopefully you understand what I mean. If that's related. Yeah, I think I think I understand you had an experience that kind of like destroyed your mind or something like that, right? Is that what you mean? Like it kind of destroyed your ability to just. Maybe have a normal a normal life or normal thinking process. I don't know if that's what you mean, but."
},
{
"end_time": 8714.753,
"index": 325,
"start_time": 8684.821,
"text": " I can understand, but I mean, you can have things through a direct experience, but you can also have them through deduction too. I mean, I would say me, I did have an experience when I was around 20. I'm not sure anymore the date between 20, 25. I had an experience of having like a direct kind of experience of spiritual things. And yeah, yeah. My book literally comes from that experience, but it took me 20 some years to"
},
{
"end_time": 8742.039,
"index": 326,
"start_time": 8715.708,
"text": " Make sense of it. So it is related. I would say, yeah, it's related. Um, cause I saw I had like a, I was in a really bad state of mind where I was, I had some bad experiences, you know, and I, and I was kind of blackpilled, you know, the ultimate, a really strong black pill there. And I was just not caring about anything, really just wanted to not do anything. And then, uh,"
},
{
"end_time": 8770.316,
"index": 327,
"start_time": 8742.978,
"text": " I had this weird experience where I saw something. I think God saved me basically from that black pill. I guess it saved me. I saw something. My book comes from that. It comes from that vision that I had. It didn't break me at all when it happened. It saved me, I would say. I was really black-pilled at that time."
},
{
"end_time": 8799.77,
"index": 328,
"start_time": 8770.572,
"text": " It couldn't break me more than I already was in my mind it's not in my mind, but it's like more in my spirit or in my My outlook let's say on reality so and then it kind of saved me I would say by showing me some truths like really deep truths about reality and That's exactly where my book comes from is that is that insight that I got and then it"
},
{
"end_time": 8824.974,
"index": 329,
"start_time": 8800.026,
"text": " But it didn't make any sense back then. It probably wouldn't make sense. If I were to describe my kind of vision, I'm sure it would not make sense. Well, maybe now it would, because if somebody read my book, they will see. If I were to describe it, they would see, oh, that's your book, isn't it? That's a really condensed version of everything you talk about in your book."
},
{
"end_time": 8851.459,
"index": 330,
"start_time": 8825.333,
"text": " Yeah, it is related. Yeah. Okay. I hadn't, I hadn't thought about it like that, but now that you kind of mentioned it, I realize it is because I had a weird experience. I kind of was too much because when you have a weird vision or an experience, I think it's not necessarily good. It means something like you need something that you can't handle, but you need it and you're going to see it. And it's like, it's not good. It means you"
},
{
"end_time": 8877.5,
"index": 331,
"start_time": 8851.903,
"text": " You're not ready to receive logically or consistently this truth and then you have to fix it. After that, you have to make sense of what you saw in a way that is not dangerous or crazy. That's why it's not a good idea to talk about this thing with other people because if it doesn't make sense to you, you don't describe it because it's going to sound even more crazy to someone else."
},
{
"end_time": 8904.923,
"index": 332,
"start_time": 8878.387,
"text": " So that's kind of what I did. Instead of going crazy and talking about this experience, I just took 20 years to figure it out and then took about four or five years to write it down. And then I also anchored it in the Bible. That helped me too. It helped me to not go off into weird places, to just use the Bible as a kind of frame to put that in."
},
{
"end_time": 8935.947,
"index": 333,
"start_time": 8906.391,
"text": " You see what I'm saying? Like I made it fit into the stories instead of just letting it go wherever. And that kind of helped me. It's kind of, yeah, what you were saying a little bit, you see something big, it's dangerous, but you put it in a box, you know, you put it in a containment so that it's not dangerous. So I guess my book is a containment for an experience that I had. Yeah. It's funny that I never thought about it like that. Is that, is it something, is it similar to something that you've experienced or?"
},
{
"end_time": 8965.503,
"index": 334,
"start_time": 8936.817,
"text": " I haven't told you what I saw, but I mean, I'm not going to. Well, in some ways you shouldn't and you don't need to know. For me, much of what you say resonates outside of the last part of holding it back or not speaking about it to other people. Actually, in part, what saved me is when I speak about it to some people privately, I don't think I've ever said what it is publicly."
},
{
"end_time": 8995.708,
"index": 335,
"start_time": 8966.237,
"text": " And I don't want to, I don't know if I should. But anyhow, I had to speak about it privately. It took me maybe months before I could, and it's still been a few years and I'm not fully recovered. But I know the more I speak about it, the less I'm shattered. Yeah, it makes sense."
},
{
"end_time": 9025.776,
"index": 336,
"start_time": 8996.817,
"text": " It doesn't make sense that you in talking about it to certain people, I mean, you probably choose. You see, it's not that you choose who you tell. It's a way to contain it. You know, when you choose, you choose who you tell you to people you trust. It is a way to contain it, I would say. It's a way to externalize it, but still contain it. And in a way, you're telling people that you trust this thing that you experience. Does that make sense? Like it's a similar process here."
},
{
"end_time": 9054.514,
"index": 337,
"start_time": 9026.22,
"text": " You're not externalizing it totally. You're externalizing it in something that makes sense, in someone that you trust probably. You're not telling a perfect stranger. I'm guessing. What is it that you disagree metaphysically with Jonathan about, if anything? I don't necessarily disagree with what he's saying. I just specialize in a certain way."
},
{
"end_time": 9084.787,
"index": 338,
"start_time": 9055.35,
"text": " In a different way. So it's not that I disagree. It's that I see certain things that he doesn't, and he probably sees things that I don't. But it's like, I know what I see that he doesn't. I don't know what he sees that I don't. Obviously, right? I mean, it's logical. But I mean, I know that when he talks about certain subjects, I see that I see it, understand something different than him. And that I don't even disagree with what he's saying. It's just I see another aspect of it."
},
{
"end_time": 9113.968,
"index": 339,
"start_time": 9085.708,
"text": " I see like sometimes he sees only a negative aspect to certain thing and I see some positive aspect to it. That's an example. I see. Has it ever been the opposite? Probably. Yeah, probably. It's hard for me to know his side of it because if I see something only negatively and he sees it positively, I can't tell. It's hard to tell when it's not you, but I think he obviously he's more."
},
{
"end_time": 9143.814,
"index": 340,
"start_time": 9116.664,
"text": " An agreement with the whole idea of authority and maybe a little bit more the rigidity of certain traditions, you know, that's not like a metaphysical thing. It's just almost a practical application of things. So I would say I think I don't disagree with them actually on the ideas."
},
{
"end_time": 9171.937,
"index": 341,
"start_time": 9144.497,
"text": " I could disagree with what he's doing, but it's not even a disagreement. It's more like, I wouldn't do that. You see? It's not the same as a disagreement because it's like, I don't want everyone to be like me. I don't expect others to be like me. So sometimes I see someone doing something and my reaction is just, well, I wouldn't say it like that or I wouldn't do it like that. But you'd say it like that if you want. You see what I'm saying? It's not really a disagreement. It's more like a,"
},
{
"end_time": 9203.951,
"index": 342,
"start_time": 9174.138,
"text": " Is there a question that you don't want to know the answer to?"
},
{
"end_time": 9228.285,
"index": 343,
"start_time": 9204.821,
"text": " I'm probably not answering your question but to me it is an answer because some things are meant to be secret I think and some things are meant to be public and sometimes some people want to say the secret things publicly and that doesn't and these things change over time too at one point in time depending on certain events or certain circumstances some secret things can become public"
},
{
"end_time": 9258.285,
"index": 344,
"start_time": 9228.831,
"text": " But before that, they should remain secret. That's how I see it. So if you say, are there things you don't want to know? If I'm not ready to understand something, no, I don't want to hear it. That's my assessment of it. But I can't know if I'm ready to hear something, so I can't know. See, that's part of the problem. It's like if you don't know what you can't handle, you can figure it out at one point by experience."
},
{
"end_time": 9287.807,
"index": 345,
"start_time": 9258.951,
"text": " It's probably because you had some contact with that thing and you already saw that you can handle it. So then it's like no more. But on the outset, you don't know what you can handle and what you can't handle. But I would say I don't want to know things that I can't handle. If that answers your question. It's not anything specific. It's just in general. I don't want to see or know something that will not be helpful for me. I'd rather not know."
},
{
"end_time": 9320.196,
"index": 346,
"start_time": 9290.896,
"text": " Now, before we end, you'd mentioned maybe 10, 20 minutes ago, you said, it's not in my mind. Maybe it's in my spirit. And then you corrected yourself and said something about outlook. So what is the difference between your mind, your spirit and your outlook? Is one most important of these three? Well, I mean, when I say my mind, I usually mean my ideas, what I used to see the world with my ideas."
},
{
"end_time": 9349.923,
"index": 347,
"start_time": 9320.64,
"text": " In the ideas, in the real sense of the word idea, where it's like a principle that you use to understand reality. And my spirit, I guess that's the reason I changed it because I don't like that word because it's been overused and it's kind of become meaningless. It's a little bit overused, you know? Yeah. And then I said my outlook because it was more precise how I. The way I see things, but not necessarily just in terms of my ideas, but just in terms of my opinions and my"
},
{
"end_time": 9380.401,
"index": 348,
"start_time": 9351.664,
"text": " It's like there's things that I like and things that I don't like, but it's not based on my ideas. It's just based on my preferences, you know. So I don't have the same outlook as other people. I can have the same ideas as someone else, but doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to do everything in the same way. So it's like I have a different character. I'm more, let's say, introverted. So there's some things that to me seem like not a good idea, certain things that people do. It's not a good idea, but I don't think that"
},
{
"end_time": 9409.548,
"index": 349,
"start_time": 9380.879,
"text": " They should listen to me. It's just my opinion based on my preferences. You see what I'm saying? Not everything is about, you know, I don't expect everyone to be the same. That's what I'm saying. It's like you can have preferences of certain ideas and certain ways of being. You don't have to impose your will upon everyone, you know, like a crazy person. You can let other people think differently than you without having to say that it's an error. But in some cases,"
},
{
"end_time": 9433.763,
"index": 350,
"start_time": 9409.821,
"text": " This is so tricky in some cases it is so tricky depends what it is depends what level of the. The idea or the act is you know the reason i say that is because look if we want to say or you want to say one wants to say. There is a real church like a real tradition or a real religion whatever it may be there's one true one."
},
{
"end_time": 9462.841,
"index": 351,
"start_time": 9434.206,
"text": " Not that there's one true one for you or there's one true one subjectively. No, no, there's one true one objectively. But at the same time, we want to say, well, people should be thinking differently or they're made differently or what have you. Then it sounds like one is saying there's one single path, but then another is saying there are multiple paths. So is it possible for you to retain that? Look, the church that you Matthew will eventually join is the right one."
},
{
"end_time": 9489.343,
"index": 352,
"start_time": 9463.37,
"text": " It is the correct one, not just a correct one, yet at the same time, it's not for other people. Can you hold both of those in your head or do you think, no, one of those statements is correct only? I don't know. I don't know what's good for other people. It's not my concern, really. I mean, if I..."
},
{
"end_time": 9519.65,
"index": 353,
"start_time": 9490.145,
"text": " It's like when people talk about other religions like I don't want to talk about other religions I don't want to talk about the other religions because it doesn't concern me really but I understand if you're looking at it from completely out of these religions You might want to look at each one and be like why don't you guys just all get along or something like that? Or like why don't you just admit that you're all saying something similar? I don't I think eventually"
},
{
"end_time": 9544.121,
"index": 354,
"start_time": 9520.145,
"text": " There'll be a resolution to these kinds of questions, but it's definitely not me who's going to do it. Maybe someday some wise person will have all the answers and maybe even reconcile different things like that. It's certainly not me, so it's like you can ask me my opinion. There's degrees to things too. Why does it have to be all or nothing?"
},
{
"end_time": 9573.183,
"index": 355,
"start_time": 9544.48,
"text": " There's certain truths in certain places and there's certain other truths in other places. Sometimes they don't even contradict. They're just talking about very different things. Sometimes one is not talking about this aspect and the other one is only talking about this aspect. So are they both true? Are they both false? Well, sometimes they're both true. Sometimes they contradict each other. You know what I'm saying? It's not like an easy answer. It's a complicated subject because these are complex"
},
{
"end_time": 9602.961,
"index": 356,
"start_time": 9574.172,
"text": " These are complex beings, you know, a religion is not a simple thing. So it's like, there's some truth that are common, there's some truth that are not. So who, which one has the full truth? I think it's Christianity. I'm sure of that, but I mean, someone can argue with me if they want. I'm not, I don't know. I didn't study the other religions too. You see, that's, that's part of the problem too. Sometimes we want to like act like we know."
},
{
"end_time": 9631.049,
"index": 357,
"start_time": 9603.387,
"text": " Other things i mean i could barely it i'm working all my life to understand let's say one book of the bible or just what story in the bible and i'm seeing all this implication all the depth to it and then if you ask me what do you think of this other religion i don't know honestly you see what i'm saying it's like i could pretend like i know or i could play team sports and just say my team is good"
},
{
"end_time": 9653.439,
"index": 358,
"start_time": 9631.544,
"text": " Your team because it's my team. It's my team could do that, but it's not useful. It's like, I don't know. It's like sometimes people ask me, what do you think of Buddhism or something? My answer actually is just, I don't know. I have some of the depth of the Bible, but this depth that I see in the Bible is enough to tell me that I should be careful about what I say about other"
},
{
"end_time": 9682.073,
"index": 359,
"start_time": 9654.906,
"text": " I don't know. I understand. If I can extract so much knowledge from this one story or this one little thing in the Bible, how can I think that I'm going to pronounce myself on these other things, these foreign things that I don't know? I can't really. But I mean, if I played team sports, I could say my team is right, the other team is wrong. This is what people do. And I don't even think it's wrong, really. Because like you said, if you're in your team,"
},
{
"end_time": 9709.377,
"index": 360,
"start_time": 9682.875,
"text": " You gotta think your team is the team, you know, otherwise you're kind of stuck. You're stuck in nowhere land. You see what I'm saying? It's like, if you're stuck in nowhere land, you're not better off than if you're in one place or in one branch of, let's say, Christianity. Like me, I'm not better off because I'm stuck. I think I'm worse off."
},
{
"end_time": 9741.101,
"index": 361,
"start_time": 9711.357,
"text": " So it's not like I'm being more clever. I'm more clever than the Catholic because I'm not choosing this. I don't think that at all. I think the opposite. I think there's something wrong with me. It's not that I'm better. It's that I'm worse. But I understand your question. It's hard. I read books like everyone. I read books about Buddhism. I read books about Islam. I read books about Judaism and all that. So what? I don't know almost anything about any of those things."
},
{
"end_time": 9769.667,
"index": 362,
"start_time": 9741.92,
"text": " as compared to the level that you can get from just studying something specific, you know? But I understand your dilemma. You're in the same dilemma as me, really, I can see. It's like a dilemma of if I choose one path, then I miss all the other paths and I get it. It's not. I'm in the same mud as you, stuck in the same mud, I guess. Matthew."
},
{
"end_time": 9798.2,
"index": 363,
"start_time": 9771.834,
"text": " Thank you. Thank you for spending some three hours with me. Yeah, it was it was fun. Hi there, Kurt here. If you'd like more content from theories of everything and the very best listening experience, then be sure to check out my sub stack at Kurt Jai Mungle dot org. Some of the top perks are that every week you get brand new episodes ahead of time."
},
{
"end_time": 9826.442,
"index": 364,
"start_time": 9798.49,
"text": " You also get bonus written content exclusively for our members. That's C-U-R-T-J-A-I-M-U-N-G-A-L dot org. You can also just search my name and the word sub stack on Google. Since I started that sub stack, it somehow already became number two in the science category. Now, sub stack for those who are unfamiliar is like a newsletter, one that's beautifully formatted. There's zero spam."
},
{
"end_time": 9854.701,
"index": 365,
"start_time": 9826.749,
"text": " This is the best place to follow the content of this channel that isn't anywhere else. It's not on YouTube. It's not on Patreon. It's exclusive to the Substack. It's free. There are ways for you to support me on Substack if you want, and you'll get special bonuses if you do. Several people ask me like, hey Kurt, you've spoken to so many people in the field of theoretical physics, of philosophy, of consciousness. What are your thoughts, man?"
},
{
"end_time": 9884.855,
"index": 366,
"start_time": 9855.026,
"text": " While I remain impartial in interviews, this substack is a way to peer into my present deliberations on these topics. And it's the perfect way to support me directly. KurtJaymungle.org or search KurtJaymungle substack on Google. Oh, and I've received several messages, emails and comments from professors and researchers saying that they recommend theories of everything to their students. That's fantastic."
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{
"end_time": 9910.35,
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"start_time": 9885.316,
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{
"end_time": 9924.718,
"index": 368,
"start_time": 9910.811,
"text": " Toe is actually the only podcast that they currently partner with. So it's a huge honor for me. And for you, you're getting an exclusive discount. That's economist.com slash toe. And finally,"
},
{
"end_time": 9941.92,
"index": 369,
"start_time": 9925.077,
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},
{
"end_time": 9960.265,
"index": 370,
"start_time": 9942.039,
"text": " Personally, I gain from rewatching lectures and podcasts. I also read in the comment that toll listeners also gain from replaying. So how about instead you relisten on one of those platforms like iTunes, Spotify, Google podcasts, whatever podcast catcher you use. I'm there with you. Thank you for listening."
}
]
}No transcript available.