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George Knapp Λ Colm Kelleher on Skinwalker Ranch, Evidence for UFOs, and the Hitchhiker Effect
February 3, 2022
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In this interview is a plenitude of acronyms and names. For example, ASAP and Axelrod are mentioned profusely. Because many people are new to this topic, there's a link in the description outlining what each of the acronyms and names refer to specifically. Use this as a compendium or an index to not get overwhelmed, as this topic can indeed be overwhelming even for the acquainted.
Today's guests are George Knapp and Colm Kelleher on the topic of UFOs, the hitchhiker effect, and the recent book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, linked in the description. In fact, any time a book, an article, a video is referenced in the Toll Podcast, I've most likely placed a link to it in the description.
George Knapp is an investigative journalist, a news anchor, a talk radio host who has so many awards that I have to read them verbatim, and this still isn't an exhaustive list. He's been recognized with the Edward R. Murrow Awards, Peabody Awards, and dozens of Pacific Southwest Regional Emmy Awards.
Calm Kelleher is a biochemist with more than 15 years of research in cell and molecular biology. For the past eight years, Calm has been using forensic science methodologies to investigate scientific anomalies associated with the phenomenon. Click on the timestamp in the description if you'd like to skip this intro.
My name is Kurt Jaimungal. I'm a Torontonian filmmaker with a background in mathematical physics dedicated to the explication of the variegated terrain of theories of everything, from a theoretical physics perspective, but as well as analyzing consciousness and seeing its potential connection to fundamental reality, whatever that is. Essentially, this channel is dedicated to exploring the underived nature of reality, the constitutional laws that govern it, provided those laws exist at all and are even knowable to us.
If you enjoy witnessing and engaging with others on the topics of psychology, consciousness, physics, etc., the channel's themes, then do consider going to the Discord and the subreddit, which are linked in the description. There's also a link to the Patreon, that is patreon.com slash Kurt Jaimungal, if you'd like to support this podcast as the patrons and the sponsors are the only reasons that I'm able to have podcasts of this quality and this depth
Given that I can do this now full-time, thanks to both the patrons and the sponsors' support. Speaking of sponsors, there are two. The first sponsor is Brilliant. During the winter break, I decided to brush up on some of the fundamentals of physics, particularly with regard to information theory, as I'd like to interview Chiara Marletto on constructor theory, which is heavily based in information theory.
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And I recommend that you don't stop before four lessons. I think you'll be greatly surprised at the ease at which you can now comprehend subjects you previously had a difficult time grokking. The second sponsor is Algo. Now, Algo is an end-to-end supply chain optimization software company with software that helps business users optimize sales and operations, planning to avoid stockouts, reduce return and inventory write downs while reducing inventory investment.
It's a supply chain AI that drives smart ROI headed by Amjad Hussein, who's been a huge supporter of this podcast since near its inception. In fact, Amjad has his own podcast on AI and consciousness and business growth. And if you'd like to support the Toe podcast, then visit the link in the description to see Amjad's podcast because subscribing to him or at least visiting supports the Toe podcast indirectly. Thank you and enjoy.
I'm also not feeling terribly well. So if I am not at my tip top shape, please forgive me. Okay. It seems like we're live. Great. Great. Great. Okay. Welcome, column. Welcome, George. Thank you so much for being here. Man. Okay. This is such a pleasure. I've been looking forward to this and many, many, many people have been looking forward to this. So we'll get straight to the questions. Forget about intros. I'll edit in an intro later.
George, this one's directed to you. Why don't you explain to the people who are unacquainted what the hitchhiker effect is? We don't exactly know. And I think a hitchhiker effect should probably be plural, not just a singular form of the term, because there are many effects. The Bass team first noticed it in correlation to things that happened to people who visited Skinwalker Ranch. In particular, there were at least five, maybe six intelligence officials who, during the OSAP program,
over seen and funded by the Defense Intelligence Agency. These intelligence officials visited Skinwalker Ranch.
had an encounter with something unusual and then took something home with it. We don't know exactly how it works, we don't know why it happens, but it's happened over and over again. It not only happened to those people during the OSAP bass period, but it happened to people who had visited the ranch during the NIDS era and even before that, where people would go to this property, encounter unusual phenomena, UFOs, whatever, and then they would go home and they were visited at their home by
orbs, by craft, by crypto type beings, poltergeist type activity broke out in their homes. In one particular instance that we describe in the book, there were these very seasoned intelligence officials who as part of the Bass OSAP program went to the ranch to check it out for themselves. They're walking in the middle homestead,
at night, it's cold and suddenly gets much colder. They hit a cold spot where it goes, the temperature drops dramatically in a matter of seconds. And they were sort of on high alert. In fact, these guys were on high alert the whole time they were on the ranch because they'd read and heard about it.
And they encountered some sort of an intelligence that had a sort of a menacing presence. It sort of froze them in their tracks. They backed off. And later when they went home, they had an eruption of paranormal activity in their homes. It is generally the way it works is it spreads to their family members, the family members, wives, children, see these things ahead of time. The one character in our book, Axelrod, not his real name,
We had to change that at the direction of the Pentagon when we submitted the manuscript. He had this explosion of activity in his home that was seen by his wife. She saw this standing on two legs, a wolf creature, a wolf standing in her yard. Its paws crossed like this, leaning on a tree, staring back at her. A couple of days later, she didn't tell anybody about it. A couple of days later, her kids see it. They scream. This thing runs off down the street. They can see it's running on two legs.
It's kicking up leaves and they didn't know what the hell to think about it. But there were other things that happened in the home, beings, shadowy figures seen in the home, things moving around on their own. Their pet had been moved. They found their dog up on the roof one day. All kinds of trickster type activity. And then it spread from the kids to their friends in the neighborhood. That has happened a bunch of times. It happened. There was a female agent who we detail in the book, a very seasoned, battle hardened professional.
Who encountered something with column and he can tell you about it. They encountered some kind of a creature crypto creature that people have dubbed the dino beaver again in the middle homestead this woman when she goes back home.
It's an immediate explosion of what you call poltergeist type activity. Not saying it is poltergeist, it's just similar to that kind of activity that's been reported over the decades by poltergeist researchers in her home. A wine bottle flies across the room from one side of the room, smashes on the wall on the other side. There are beings that she sees at the side of her bed, things moving around in her home. It was so dramatic that her roommate, who was her fiance, moved out, ended that relationship.
This activity has continued for years. Collum will tell you it's happened to pretty much all of us who've spent a lot of time on the ranch, including me. I've never seen anything on Skinwalker Ranch, but my wife has experienced things at my home. Collum's wife has experienced things in their home. Bob Bigelow's wife experienced things in their home. Some of it is benign and interesting and some of it is downright scary. We don't know why it happens.
But column with his biology background can explain better about sort of the effect of how it spreads. It's like a virus. You mentioned it's benign and sometimes deleterious. Is any of it positive? Not that I know of. Maybe column has heard about that. I mean, it's positive in the sense of, wow, I got to see something really strange there. It's kind of kind of thrilling. My wife, the first time something happened at our home,
And I tried to make this happen for a long time before I knew about the hitchhiker effect. I would bring things home from Skinwalker Ranch to my house, try to engage whatever it was, bits of rocks and scrap and things taken from the homesteads, little tiny bits and pieces to try to get it going. And finally it happened and it wasn't pleasant. My wife saw these
blue orbs floating over our house at night. She called me to come up and see them by the time I got there, they were gone. And then there was an experience in our bedroom where this thing came in. I'm not going to go into a lot of detail on that, but it was a very frightening experience for her, unpleasant, and she didn't want it to happen again.
Well, you know, the interesting thing about the hitchhiker effect is that it is very, very reproducible. You know, George said that, you know, back in the, even in the 90s, the NIDS people were experiencing this effect.
But in terms of reproducibility, we know that going into between the NIDS era, which ended really in 2003, and the BAS era, the OSAP era, which happened really beginning in 2008-2009, multiple security officers were deployed on the Skidmarker Ranch property.
A lot of those people we've personally interviewed about a dozen of them and a lot of those people have brought quote unquote brought something home. Same kind of thing poltergeist activity in the house sometimes they see orbs in the house.
And then getting into the OSAP era where everything seemed to really escalate. And these five out of five, 100% of the military intelligence people who were deployed at the request of the Defense Intelligence Agency onto Skinwalker Ranch did, as George said, bring something home with them.
And, you know, even after Robert Bigelow sold Skinwalker Ranch, we have a new era of Brandon Fugel, the property developer from Utah purchased the ranch. He installed a team on the property. And lo and behold, we have another set of instances of the hitchhiker effect. And remember, the people who went on Skinwalker Ranch in 2016,
were very, very skeptical and they were saying, this is all, you know, this is not absolutely, you know, this is all fantasy. And then stuff started erupting in their homes. They brought something home with them and multiple instances. So in terms of reproducibility, the hitchhiker effect has continuously affected people that we know of for about 25 years.
It may be longer on Skinwalker Ranch. And the second point I wanted to make was that it is not only Skinwalker Ranch. It is not sort of only happening on Skinwalker Ranch, but a lot of UFO activity
does seem to give rise to the Skinwalker or the Hitchhiker effect. For people who have never been on Skinwalker Ranch and just interact with the UFO phenomenon, they themselves in some cases, I'm not saying in all cases, but in some cases and mostly where we have the luxury of being able to study these people over many months or many years, a lot of these people
You know, report elements of the hitchhiker effect. You know, it's kind of ironic but going all the way back to 1947 Kenneth Arnold, when he saw those nine
Objects in the sky over the Cascade Mountains in June of 1947. It's interesting, long after he died, his daughter went on a radio show. She was talking about writing a book about his life, but she started talking about seeing orbs in the Arnold home.
They have experienced various poltergeist effects. Even Kenneth Arnold himself in his book talks about, you know, some really weird happenings that were happening after the June 24, 1947.
unambiguously tying what happened to Kenneth Arnold to some form of the hitchhiker effect, but I'm saying that this effect is not just a skinwalker ranch specific effect. It happens on a much broader scale. You've been researching in this area for decades or at least plenty and plenty of years. What piece of evidence do you find most striking, most remarkable?
For whatever reason, so one could be because it's incontrovertible evidence toward the existence of X or Y or it led to some new research area. Hear that sound?
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I think one of the most remarkable things that we found during the OSAP program, and again, the OSAP program was a 24-month program that started in 2008 and ended in 2010,
But, you know, for the first time we had a large team we had about 50 people who were employed full time at also, and then we had $22 million allocated through the Defense Intelligence Agency for a two year period so.
It's very rare in the UFO field to have the luxury of resources and being able to study people over long periods of time after they've encountered UFOs. So I guess one of the most remarkable sort of discoveries that we made during the OSAP program was the intense medical effects that some of these UFO cases
cause in some people. I'll give you an example.
One of the sentinel cases that we actually investigated over about a year actually and it went into almost a two-year investigation was that this biotechnologist and his daughter were driving towards Bend, Oregon in their vehicle on their way home and the daughter notices three small UFOs, a bluish color that were darting around in the field beside them
Once she noticed them, they immediately made a beeline for the vehicle as they were driving and one of them went right across the windshield. One of them came into the car and went right across the windshield.
inside the vehicle but the third one actually went through the left shoulder of this biotechnologist, went through the upper thoracic cavity and then emerged from the right shoulder and then shot out through the window right in front of the daughter. I mean this was a terrifying episode for the daughter especially as she was witnessing all of this but you know within I would say 24 to 48 hours
This guy woke up the following day with the left side of his face was all sunburned. His ear had started swelling. His eye, he started losing the sight in his left eye. Within a week or a couple of weeks, he started losing his hair on the left side of his head.
And, you know, luckily we had on contract a couple of MD PhDs really sort of as people who could get deep into medical investigations and look at medical injuries. So we deployed one of these people, you know, on this case, and he followed this guy over many, many months. But it turned out that a few months after this event had happened,
He came down with a rare form of ductal carcinoma that luckily was not metastatic, so it did not metastasize. And over a two-year period, went through a lot of health issues. But in terms of being able to document all of that, we were very, very fortunate that we had access to blood samples taken from this guy before the incident. And then there were multiple blood samples taken after the incident.
So we were able to piece together a medical forensic sort of picture of what had happened before and after this incident. And we could document rises and falls of various immune system parameters within this guy. We saw that there were dramatic changes in neutrophil lymphocyte ratios over time. And this was from an OSAP
UFO investigation point of view, we think this was one of the sentinel cases because we had resources and we were able to, we had the luxury of following this guy over a year and a half to two years after the incident. And as I said, we had blood samples taken before the incident. So we were actually able to postulate about cause and effect and the sort of the dramatic increase
in adverse health symptoms that this guy had.
suffered, we were able to say with reasonable confidence that he suffered pretty well all of those after the close encounter with this small blue orb. So that was the case. And we had several other cases that Bas Ossoff encountered that sort of looked at the medical injury aspect. And that was one of the things that really surprised me
During the NIDS era, we did not encounter too many of those cases. We had about 1,800 separate UFO investigations under our belt by the time the NIDS database
went on ice, which was about 2003. But we never saw in terms of boots in the ground investigations of UFO effects. We never saw the sort of level of medical injury that we saw sort of, you know, up close and personal with a few of these cases. So I guess that's one of the things that really surprised me from the OSSA series of investigations.
Did that person feel any burning sensation or any sensation at all when the orb went through him? Well, he actually did feel a sort of really weird sort of uncomfortable. It wasn't painful or anything. He felt sort of
Okay.
George, when we first connected, you mentioned to me that there's plenty of meat on the bone, so to speak, in the book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, which the link is in the description for those who would like to check that out. Now, what are you referring to? What specifically are you referring to that you feel like people in the media, either on podcasts, etc. haven't picked up on? And why do you think it's so important? Those pieces of information. This question also comes from Dan from that UFO podcast.
Yeah, well, there are a lot of ways I could answer that. I'll give you sort of some bullet points. One is the documenting the difference between OSAP and ATIP. We're all glad that ATIP, that story hit the New York Times in December 2017, but there were multiple errors of fact in that story that they sort of conflated OSAP with ATIP. OSAP is the program that got $22 million. OSAP was
Authorized and overseen by the Defense Intelligence Agency. It was not a small operation as column said it had 50 full time employees working around the clock, and then hundreds of subcontractors it was huge, as far as we know.
believe there are other UFO programs, but as far as we know, it was the largest such endeavor ever funded by the U.S. government. Bigger than Project Blue Book, bigger than ATIP by many magnitudes, and I don't think people get just how big it was. ATIP grew out of OSAP, not the other way around. There were two distinct efforts, and this was huge. Number two is the database.
The database that was created by these guys is enormous. It's more than 200,000 different UFO cases. It incorporates not only project blue book and US government files, but also private files compiled by needs the files of other governments, including Brazil.
Documents, reports, case files, things of that sort. It was enormous. I don't think there's anything like it anywhere else in the world. And had OSAP been allowed to continue, one of the plans was, as envisioned by Jacques Vallee, who created this database or data warehouse,
was to put AI on top of it as a way to filter and co-relate different cases to look for patterns. If that had been allowed to continue, if OSAP had been allowed to continue, we'd be way further down the road in understanding what this phenomena is.
As it is, we don't understand it at all. We don't know where it's from, why it's here, what its interest is in us. We don't know the answers to any of those big questions, but it is possible. They could have been achieved if it had been allowed to continue. Also, the specific cases. Tic Tac is probably the most famous UFO case in the world.
That was an ASAP project. They launched that investigation. And although we've seen bits and pieces of what ASAP was able to determine about the Tic-Tac, the bulk of that information, the analysis that was done with a specific kind of software, has never been made public. Column could probably address that a lot better than I can, but let me finish this list. And then there are individual cases, things that happened at Skinwalker Ranch, crypto creatures, the different kinds of craft that were investigated, seen and investigated by ASAP.
at the ranch and then other places around the country. There's a case in Georgia that was investigated that is a mind-boggling. There's a men in black type instance that happened in Kentucky that Colum can elaborate on. There's a Southern California incident in Matura County where an entire family had these experiences over a number of days, saw alien beings, got them on camera
in fact, and it had a kind of a trick ending. But those kind of cases, I don't think they have registered with the general public or the UFO public at all. Colin, do you want to add to that? Yeah, I think exactly what George put out is the case. And I guess we can be sort of blamed in some way because we sort of set out to write a fairly
a fairly dense book in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon and we decided from the get-go that we could have added a hundred pages of filler if we had so chosen but we decided against that and so I think the book is pretty dense. There's not a lot of fluff in there in terms of sort of
going beyond what the facts were. So I think a lot of people because of that, and I don't blame them personally, but a lot of people have missed some of the things that are in the book.
I think it does probably demand more than one reading. And, you know, a lot of people I've noticed on social media and etc. have focused and sort of said that the OSAP program was only focused on Skinwalker Ranch and it was only focused on exploring ghosts and what have we.
But the fact is, you know, we submitted 104 separate reports to the Defense Intelligence Agency as separate deliverables during the OSAP program, and only a minority of those reports were focused on Skinwalker Ranch. The remainder of the reports focused on, you know, we did a pretty extensive engineering analysis of the Tic Tac incident, and we compiled a report
based on ANSYS multi-physics analysis of the TIC-TAC case, computational fluid dynamics analysis. That was a 140 plus page report that was submitted to the Defense Intelligence Agency that was completely separate from the report that Axelrod submitted on his investigation and his investigation of the TIC-TAC effect. So we also had a lot of
investigations of things like the Russian UFO papers that George Knapp brought back from Russia, that was completely independent of Skinwalker Ranch, and we employed three separate Russian translators. We got a lot of the documentation, we got all of the documentation translated
We had analysts take a look at it and it was a mind-boggling array of an organizational chart in Russia's Soviet Union in the early 1990s, which showed that the Soviet Union had this massive program that was focused on gathering UFO data nationwide at a national level. Government departments were involved.
as well as university departments involved. There was also this military unit called 73790 that was involved and it seemed to be the sort of the linchpin of the entire investigation and you know there being whispers about unit 73790 as being sort of fundamental to the Soviet Union and later the Russian focus on the UAP agenda
But you know, Senator Reid, when he was instrumental in forming this program, one of the really sort of alarming things in his mind was the prospect that another country would be gaining traction on the United States
And he had in mind Russia and China, but other countries also, that they were gaining a technological edge because they were actually taking the UFO topic a lot more seriously in these countries than they were in the United States.
You know, we have publicly, we know we had Project Sign, we had Project Grudge, we had Project Blue Book, and then sort of laterally, we had this very large OSAP program, which unfortunately was prematurely truncated after two years, just as it was really sort of getting going. And then we had this very small effort in the Pentagon called AATIP. You know, so in terms of
the publicly available knowledge of how seriously the United States government was taking the UFO phenomenon. The thread three documents that OSAP translated and analyzed shows pretty unequivocally that the Soviet Union slash Russia had a much more serious and wider scope program. Okay, let's talk about the hitchhiker effect for a little while. This question comes from Arthur
It seems like the hitchhiker effect is akin to a contagion.
And the way that I understand it is that it must be that it decreases with severity the more that it's spread from person to person, otherwise we'd all have it because we're connected. So firstly, does it decrease? Have you found any evidence that it decreases when it spreads from person to person? Well, I would say sort of the poster child for the hitchhiker effect in terms of our ability to study it over time.
I think your listener, that's a very good question actually, because it does have a lot of implications. But the poster child for this was the Axelrod family. So Axelrod was the sort of the primary infectee on the Onskin Walker Ranch. He flew 2,000 miles back to his home
in Virginia. Within a few weeks, both his sons and his wife had experienced these dramatic effects that George has alluded to. At the same time, neighbors started reporting, this was like a few months later, neighbors started reporting eruptions of unusual effects
as school kids that the Axelrod kids knew also started reporting weird creatures outside their bedrooms. And remember, the Axelrod family, the guy in the Axelrod family had top-secret security clearances, was a very high-level Navy
person. So the family were well used to keeping secrets. They were not sort of the kind of kids that went to school and blabbed about what their, you know, their family was doing. So they kept very quiet about this whole thing. So bottom line is that there was a spread out into the neighbors and out into the school kids.
The real question is how far this actually spread and we do not have a full grasp on exactly how far it spread. But I think the questioner is really correct because
We probably would have picked up additional cases if this had spread into large areas around the neighbourhood as opposed to what we actually did pick up. In other cases, we know that it spread through kids and in some cases co-workers.
Also, we're subject to this, but we do not have, I would say the N is too small. And again, this comes back to the fact that the OSAP program was prematurely truncated. And, you know, the original plan was to have a five-year program,
We believe if OSAP had been allowed to continue for the full five years with, you know, 50 plus full-time employees, we would have made a lot of inroads into answering the kind of questions about how far the hitchhiker effect extends. You know, because one of my backgrounds is in virology.
and sort of it's pretty obvious from the coronavirus update. Everybody is familiar with the R0 concept and the ability of a virus to infect new hosts. So the epidemiological analysis of the Hitchhiker effect
is crying out to be done if there was a follow-up program for OSAP that could document additional cases of the hitchhiker effect. Right now, we have probably between two and three dozen cases of the hitchhiker effect over the last 20 to 25 years. But we need an awful lot more than that in terms of documenting the extent of this effect.
But, you know, the tools of epidemiological analysis and modeling are sort of their widespread. Every other lab that studies coronavirus has, you know, epidemiological modeling, you know, resources at their disposal. So this would be a very easy project to extend. All we need is additional cases. George, do you have any comments on that?
No, I just I agree that it was a great question. I haven't really considered it. I know that for us, my wife and I, we don't think it to spread any further than that. Of course, we we have had no reports from people that we know. We don't have children. And we last couple of years, we've lived like hermit. So I guess that could explain part of it. But that's a great question is how far it can spread. We don't know the answer to it.
see what I'm wondering is what are some of the other factors so it seems proximity spatial proximity is a factor maybe temporal in oh sorry maybe temporal length so how long am I spending with someone what are some of the other factors well you know what one of the um one of the sort of questions that I've heard asked is
You know, this could be just a series of fantasies that happen in these people's minds, etc. But, you know, there are indications that, for example, in the Axelrod family, that this creature that the wife saw independently from the
two kids in their home left physical tracks. So for example, you know, there were claw marks on the tree. When the Axelrod family went out to investigate after the second incident with the kids, they found all these really obvious claw marks on the tree right on the exact tree that the wife had seen this creature leaning against.
That's number one. They also saw this creature throwing up a lot of leaves in the backyard as it was running. One of the Axelrod kids got besieged by orbs one night in 2011 and woke up with physical marks on his body or a lot of red welts on his body. It looked like, you know, frankly, it looked like he had been beaten up after a night
um in which there was a lot of this quote unquote parallel paranormal activity in his house and in his bedroom but he had physical marks on his body um and they they actually brought him to the er just to check him out and and make sure that he was at home from school the following day um he had like intense
So this is not only a sort of a mind phenomenon, it does have physical effects on the environment. So it could be both, but I wanted to emphasize that there are physical effects in the environment as well.
And just to add to just a reminder, the health consequences for people who come into contact with these phenomena, not just at the ranch. I mean, you can look at the highly publicized cases where Navy pilots have encountered UFOs without being too specific or giving away personal information. You can bet that there's a chance that some of those
have had these experiences as well. When they go home, it's not just poltergeist type activity. There are severe health consequences. There are diseases. Perhaps your audience, Kurt, will remember recent comments by Dr. Gary Nolan, where he admits he was contacted by CIA
to look into some of these long-term health consequences for people who encounter UFOs. Nothing to do with Skinwalker Ranch, but people who get too close for too long to UFOs have severe medical and health consequences that last for a long time. We need to understand that. We need to understand how that works. It's not just weird stuff that they see in their rooms at night. It's diseases and health consequences that put their lives in danger. Kit Green wrote a paper about it for
OSAP for BAS. It's one of the 38 DERDS, the reports that were funded by BAS to establish a sort of a baseline for different aspects of what OSAP was going to study. They contacted these different professionals, professors, PhDs to look into specific topics that was related to their own level of expertise, hypersonics, for example.
Most of the people who wrote those papers didn't know they're writing it as part of a UFO study funded by DIA, but they wrote it anyway, projecting what our state-of-the-art knowledge of in a particular specialty is, projecting it out over 40 or 50 years. One of those papers, one of those 38 dirts written by Dr. Kit Green, neuroscientist, was looking at the medical effects. That worked
I should also let you know that the audience for this is so variegated. It runs the gamut from people who are extremely familiar with the UFO space to people who are more interested in the bread and butter of this channel, theoretical physics, math consciousness.
Often there are these acronyms and they may be unfamiliar to many people. So please, if you have an acronym, just a one sentence explanation, like what is ASAP, DIA, et cetera, when they come up. I know it's tedious, but there's many questions about that. No, that's great. That's a good idea because we get, it does get confusing for people. DIA is Defense Intelligence Agency. It's the Pentagon's version of the CIA. ASAP is the Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program. That was the acronym given to the BASS study.
I'll get to Bass in a second, by the DIA. Bass is the Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Space Systems. It's an offshoot of Bigelow Aerospace. It was the contractor that got the contract from DIA for OSAP, if you've got all those acronyms straight. And then ATIP, which is the Advanced Aerospace Weapon, no, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, is sort of the successor to OSAP. It grew up out of the ruins of OSAP, so to speak. That's the program that was directed by Lou Elizondo.
Okay, calm your calm. Do you look like you're chomping at the bit? No, no, I was actually removing something that came up on the screen. All right. Okay, so this question comes from KF. And by the way, if there's someone in the audience who wants to work on a legend or a compendium about these acronyms so that it can be
so that someone can easily reference them, then please contact me. Okay, so KF has a question, a very serious question. Kurt, have they considered testing the hitchhiker syndrome with people who are blind or have been blind from birth? And are there different outcomes to this? That's a very interesting question. It's actually extremely mean to test it on someone. But yeah, you understand the spirit of the question. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you would have to sort of sign a lot of waivers
and you would have a lot of examination from the HIPAA, that's another acronym, but health insurance portability act, whatever it is act, in other words medical confidentiality. You would also have to make sure that you had institutional review board
check that box too before you got into that kind of research because this is human-based research which is extremely tightly controlled by the National Institutes of Health. So once you checked all those boxes and provided you know all of the releases had been signed, it is theoretically possible to have people who are blind you know
All the way across the spectrum there's a whole series of studies that were conducted by a psychiatrist called Kenneth Ring and he studied actually these anomalous experiences in blind people and found that the anomalous experiences included consciousness related experiences like near-death experiences
and found that the blind individuals were absolutely equally capable of seeing near-death experiences as they were as people with normal sight. Now, that's quite a leap between what we're discussing and near-death experiences, but I'm saying that there is precedent for that kind of an analysis, but it does go back to the question of how big is the end?
and the N is pretty small with the data that we have in hand. Really what we want to see, I think, George and I and Jim Lakatsky is another program that is focused in the same way that utilizes the OSAP template
to study the UFO problem and not just confined it to small sort of rifle shot type studies that focus only on military pilots. Once you start looking at effects
of these UFO encounters on people, then you start getting into things like the hitchhiker effect. And we think that there's enough rumor and innuendo regarding some of the military pilots that have encountered these UFOs to warrant studies that are long-term on human effects as well, including psychological effects, but also medical effects, and especially over long-term.
The old days of UFO investigations occurring on people's own time during the weekends, which is sort of the classic model of UFO studies, the sort of weekend warrior model, that really does not apply in this case. You've got to have the resources to be able to study, hear that sound,
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These people long-term
I'm talking months or years in some cases in order to fully delineate these kinds of effects. I mean, if you go out on a weekend and you interview somebody for three or four hours, you record that interview and you go home, the chances are you will pick up
only a very small percent of that person's UFO experience. You'll pick up data on UFO parameters, performance parameters, how close it was, how fast it did right angle turns, what kind of lights it might have had, and you can try to sort of marry that to theoretical physics concepts. But really what you need to do is to do that, but also to look at the long-term effects
Speaking of physics, this question comes from Mossy Moose. During the ASAP program and potentially continuing into the present day, what sorts of energy signatures pass through the experiencers
of UAPs and the phenomenon in close proximity. And is it related to neutrinos? Does this type of detectable and measurable energy signature play a role in the hitchhiker effect? That's a pretty good question too. I'm not a scientist. I don't pretend to be a scientist. Colum, that maybe is a better question for him. And I don't know if they ever got, were able to get that specific. So, well, the, the only, the only, I guess,
medical effects that we were able to document involved, we think, some form of potentially non-ionizing radiation.
There was another case that George briefly mentioned, and this pertains to what I'm talking about. In Georgia, this guy was alerted by his dog barking outside, and this is a case that we investigated pretty over a long period of time.
But he went outside his his his young boy and a couple of neighbors were in a tent in their backyard. They were kind of in a sleepover. He went out to check on them and check on the dog and right over his property or hovering silently was this massive black triangle, this large black triangle.
Now, it was nighttime, so he couldn't get a good fix, but he figured it was very, very low. He said it was massive, the size of a football field. So it was right over his property. So we tried taking cell phone photos.
And, you know, all that came out was just blackness because he could see it silhouetted against the sky, but the resolution of his iPhone camera was insufficient to pick it up. So we went back inside and pulled out. He had a very powerful flashlight. So we went back outside. This thing was still hovering above him. So we shone the flashlight up at it to see if he could see any features on the underside of this craft.
and almost immediately this large intense blue ray came from the front side of the triangle and shot right on him and he immediately felt you know a lot of heat and a lot he was kind of blinded and felt a lot of heat he turned around and crouched away from this
But at that stage, he felt a lot of heat on his neck and his back. So he got, you know, he ran inside because he, you know, he felt he felt threatened. But this blue light was probably a foot in diameter. And it seemed to be instantaneous reaction to him shining the flashlight at the underside of this object. So he looked at it from the window and it took off at enormous speeds.
heading up in the sky and was gone very, very quickly. So he went to bed and sort of woke up with a very strong metallic taste in his mouth
He had a lot of sunburn on the back of his neck. He had a headache. He did not feel well and sort of. So investigations start. We were contacted as part of the BAS MUFON. MUFON is the acronym for Mutual UFO Network. Yeah. So
We were contacted via MUFON about this case. So we sent investigators out. We photographed this guy. He started losing his hair on the back of his head. And we had one of our physician scientists go out and visit him. And he organized a set of medical visits to the local clinic that documented him. Over time, he had a lot of health effects.
He had intense nausea over this whole case. And so, you know, there was indirect evidence, not direct evidence, but from the constellation of medical symptoms, including sort of strong metallic taste in his mouth, losing hair, intense sunburn on his skin, and some other features. One of the hypotheses that we came up with for this case and for other cases was
non-ionizing radiation. But we were never able to get more specific than that. It was some form of electromagnetic radiation and we were not able to pinpoint the intensity or we were not able to pinpoint exact wavelength. But there was a hypothesis put forward that needs to be validated over time in future cases
non-ionizing radiation was used on this guy. There was a whole plethora of other strange effects that this guy went through. He had all these bizarre electronic interference phenomena that were erupted in his home. He had, as I said, a lot of medical effects
lot of these tumors started growing in his body. Luckily they turned out to be benign and he was diagnosed with Castleman's disease and eventually after a couple or a few years he got better and you know pulled out of it but you know he was besieged by low-flying black helicopters
You know, at one stage, which is another sort of feature that that is associated with the UFO phenomenon. But why is it featured associated with the UFO phenomenon? We don't have the answer to that. But, you know, one of the things that the lessons learned from ASAP is that we think the template is robust. The template should be repeated.
And it should be extended beyond the two year program. So, you know, the bottom line for the future, we think for UFO studies is to do a five plus year study with the kinds of resources that also had and the kinds of
personnel that were devoted exclusively to investigating the UFO mystery because, you know, as everybody knows, as a lot of your listeners know, we've been looking at this, you know, in the public eye for 75 years. That's an awful long time to be wondering what is this phenomenon
You know, one of the things that the OSAP program was tasked to do was to delineate whether or not this phenomenon was a threat to the United States and a threat to national security. Bottom line is, you know, there are two aspects of threat analysis. One is capability and the other is intent.
So part A was capability and our data warehouse and databases were full of instances where we were able to map out the capabilities of the UFO phenomenon. But in terms of intent is a really big question mark.
After 75 years of looking at this UFO phenomenon, we still have no idea regarding whether or not what the intent or what the agenda of this phenomenon is. So therefore, our final report to the Defense Intelligence Agency, we did not say that the UFO phenomenon was a threat to national security. We said it was a threat to human health.
And that's a very, very different, you know, parsing of that sort of concept. It's a very, very different thing to say. It's a bad thing for you, for people to be close to UFOs. But we were not able to gather enough data to determine whether or not this was a threat to national security. I'd like to add, Kurt, if there's one underlying message from our book, one lesson learned,
from the OSAP program, it's that you need to follow the evidence where it leads. The Defense Intelligence Agency crafted this program as a UFO study.
was its primary focus is on UFOs, the technology. Whose is it? Is it a threat? Can we duplicate it? Can we figure it out and duplicate it? But it also had, and everyone at DIA and within Bass understood, that it also was going to follow the evidence wherever it led. Since our book came out and some of the details about OSAP and Bass, we've had a lot of criticism. Oh gosh, that was a silly program.
They were ghost hunters. They were looking at Bigfoot, all these goofy, silly topics, paranormal stuff that's been discredited. Well, that was not entirely true. It was a UFO program to start, but they followed the evidence where it led, and it led into some pretty strange areas. They didn't set out and didn't want to study ghosts or poltergeists, and we don't even know if that's what they were studying, but they did study the effects that were in proximity to UFO events, followed the evidence where it led, and it led into some very uncomfortable areas.
The Pentagon, of course, has been a little less than honest with the public about its interest in UFOs. But finally, as a result of the ATEP story that was in New York Times and testimony from a lot of the people that work with Column at OSAP,
behind closed doors, Congress is finally interested in the UFO aspect and more power to them. We're glad that they took the trouble to find out about the national security implications of these UFO encounters over military bases. If that is the engine that drove the interest in creating a new program, which they have done, great.
But you can't just stop there. Again, the underlying message of OSAP, BAS, the book that we wrote is you have to follow the evidence where it leads. You cannot solve this mystery or these multiple mysteries by just looking at military cases, at UFOs that appear over military bases, at UFOs that are picked up on sensors or on thermal images like Tic Tac, like Gimbal. You're never going to solve the big picture
When I was speaking to Travis Walton, he was of the opinion that some of these beings are benevolent and that they would cure cancer potentially. Someone else thought this as well. I believe her name is Angelie. She believes that they're kind, bestowing, generous, helpful. It doesn't sound like you all believe that, but please comment on that.
Well, we don't even know if that's one intelligence or multiple. Maybe there's more than one more than one answer. Maybe they're extraterrestrial.
Maybe they're interdimensional. Maybe they're time travelers. Maybe there's something else more exotic. Crypto terrestrials, ultra terrestrials. We really don't know. And we don't know that it's just one. It could be many different ones with different kinds of agendas. Yeah, there are indications. Call them alien editorials. People who are contactees, abductees over the years, who say they've been given messages by these beings. We want you to take care of your planet. We want you to be kind to each other. Quit blowing up atomic bombs. Pay attention to the environment. You're polluting your planet.
They express an interest in human development and human health and there are rare instances where they've supposedly helped humans overcome crippling diseases. But overall, you know, there are a lot of contrary indications as well. Sometimes these intelligences seem to be just completely oblivious to us.
They don't care whether we see them or not. They don't seem to want to interact with us. Sometimes they lie to us. Jim Semavan of CIA, I interviewed him a couple of days ago, he says, you know, looking at the databases and then the vast overarching information about the subject is that
We don't know what they're here for or what their interest is in us. They lie to us. They trick us. They mislead us. They take on different shapes. We don't know where they're from. We don't know how long they've been here. I mean, we don't know any of the answers to the really big questions. So I am reluctant to assign a motive to any of them of these different intelligences. We don't even know how many of them there are. I would agree with that. I think the but
The vast majority of the cases that we looked at through the OSAP database seemed to indicate that people were having physiological effects and medical effects, but there were a subset of cases that do directly address your listener's question.
And, and, you know, there was a sense of uplift, uh, you know, feeling, feeling that at the end of the day, that this was a positive effect on, on, you know, they, they had a life-changing experience as a result of interaction with UFOs. Um, but in general it was a positive effect. And, you know, as George mentioned, there were sort of, there are sporadic cases of, of, uh,
these where people are healed quote unquote from various ailments as a result. These are anecdotal, you know, everything to do with UFOs is anecdotal, unfortunately. But, you know, in our database, I think that the vast majority of the cases were not this benign subset, but there was a benign subset.
associated with positive effects. I mean even going back to Skinwalker Ranch just after the Sherman family had sold the property to Robert Bigelow in 1996, the last thing that they saw as the husband and wife were on the property was they looked up and it was a bright sunny day and this disc, this silver disc came right down
And and Harvard, you know, it was in the sky and they felt enormous positive feelings and sort of, you know, after the nightmare that just gone through over a two year period. This was sort of the parting shot.
from a silver disc, which was a classic UFO in the sky. And their overwhelming take home message from that encounter was very positive, you know, very joyful, etc, etc. We have no idea why that happened. Or was this just a random occurrence?
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Speaking of books, there are plenty of questions which reference the book.
In fact, this guy, Arthur, who asked a question earlier, Arthur Switowski, he's such a trooper. He just outlined page number and then a question on that page number. So on page 49, he says, in regard to Lou, Lou Elizondo's remote viewing talents has Lou or anyone else on the team of bass used their remote viewing capabilities to see into installations of that purportedly house craft slash bodies or to communicate with slash locate UAPs.
and then they even wrote in bracket. This ties into page 120 on remote viewing. Well, I'm glad they have spent so much time annotating the pages because frankly, I don't know what page 120 says, but in terms of remote viewing, Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies proposed a remote viewing project to Defense Intelligence Agency.
as part of the menu or proposals that we submitted in response to the request for proposals that DIA put out. DIA actually rejected that proposal. They said, we don't want to spend enormous amounts of money training remote viewers. But they did allow us to conduct a pilot program on remote viewing. And in the book, we did contract with
legendary remote viewer Joe Mike Monagle who we you know per the usual method for remote viewing we gave him only latitude and longitude coordinates and he produced a report for the Defense Intelligence Agency ultimately with Bass and in it he mapped out the property and he talked about various beings on the property
In terms of a full-fledged remote viewing exercise, we were not permitted under the contract that we were given to do a full remote viewing of the, you know, during the BAS program. So we were not permitted to do that by the Defense Intelligence Agency. George, you have anything to add to that? Yeah, I'd add this is that Colum and I wrote an earlier book called Hunt for the Skinwalker, which was
mainly focused on NIDS, which is the National Institute for Discovery Science. Pardon all the acronyms, but NIDS was an organization created by Mr. Bigelow prior to him getting a contract for the DIA to run this other program. And NIDS studied, among other things, Skinwalker Ranch in Utah,
And just as sort of an experiment, as a side note, while preparing that book, I had tasked a remote viewing group here in Nevada to take a look at the ranch without telling them what I was asking them to look at. They found some interesting things. They found evidence of military surveillance. They found some indications of underground facilities and control rooms. So they were able to pierce the veil of a sort.
But of course, I was never able to physically verify what they saw in these remote viewing visions was actually physically there. Yeah, it would be a really interesting task and endeavor to try to get remote viewers to take a look at not just the ranch, but other places like Area 51 or places where we suspect recovered disks or medical metal pieces, bits and pieces from crash sites might be stashed. We haven't done it.
Okay, this question comes from Dugummit. I'm late to the party, but I finally read the book. Sobering is right. Two questions. Number one, do other countries have the same after effects, specifically the archetypal beasts as North America, because it seems culturally specific? And then, well, let's tackle that one first.
Well, for example, Bigfoot, if you talk about crypto creatures has been seen everywhere in the world. I think maybe Hawaii might be the only place where something like it hasn't been seen. And I could be wrong there. So a lot of the crypto type creatures that we see here, dog men, wolf men,
You know, creatures that are where creatures they've been seen all over the world in every culture. So there are a lot of similarities. I think there are specific kinds of crypto creatures that are unique to different parts of the world.
I mean, it almost gets bizarre and ridiculous. There are creatures that have been seen there by the ranchers and property owners, neighbors that don't exist in nature. Colum saw one of them. Colum experienced that walking with the female intelligence officer in the middle homestead at the ranch, and they saw what people have laughingly called a dino beaver. Colum, maybe you want to tell that story, what this thing looked like?
Yeah, I was I was on the property with Robert Bigelow and with the person in the book who was a defense and intelligence analyst. Her name was Julia with and, you know,
During the day, Juliette and I had walked the property. We had done a lot of photography of the property. I had briefed Juliette on the various incidents that had happened during the National Institute for Discovery Science program on the ranch. Juliette climbed up on top of the Skinwalker Ridge, which is the northern
property or the northern part of the ranch and she took a lot of photographs. So that night at about 10 o'clock
Myself, Robert Bigelow, and Juliet went down to an area near Homestead No. 2, which is kind of the centre of the ranch, but also the location where over the last 25 years there have been literally dozens of anomalies reported and reported and witnessed.
What we did was we had chairs with us. We sat out in the middle of a pasture near Homestead 2, about probably, I don't know, 50 feet away from Homestead 2.
And the way the chairs were oriented where we were back to back to back. So each one of us was facing in a 60 degree angle away from each other. So we could essentially cover the entire 360 degrees. So we noticed, myself and Robert Bigelow noticed that Juliette was really getting, you know, she was getting pretty jumpy because, you know, it was pretty, it was very, very dark.
It was, you know, you could see the faint light of homesteads way in the distance and we were sitting out sort of sitting ducks in her mind and I guess in our minds too, sitting ducks for anything that wanted to sort of pass by. So she was getting pretty nervous. So Robert Bigelow sort of got up and walked down. He was strolling down about a hundred yards south. So I got up to
to head over to the opposite direction in the direction of the Homestead 2 building which is an abandoned homestead about 100 years old that's kind of like in ruins. So about 30 feet in front of me I see this what looks like a maybe somewhere between 100 to 150 pound
creature that's motoring along the tree line in front of me. It's about 30 feet away. I looked over at Juliette Witt and she's looking at it too. And this thing looked like it had like blocks on the spine, emanating from the spine. I guess the nearest equivalent I can think of in terms of what I was looking at is a very, very small version of a Stegosaurus.
But I could see also, and this was very, very dim light. This creature was motoring north.
And it was absolutely silent. It had what looked like a flat tail, low to the ground. And it was a pretty bulky creature. I mean, it was small, but it was pretty bulky. And my estimate, you know, in hindsight is probably somewhere between 100 and 150 pounds. But what the most bizarre aspect of this whole thing was that it was like a cone of silence had descended on the, you know, on this whole area. And, you know, even the crickets
This kind of ambient noise out on Skinwalker Ranch when you're sitting there for hours, all of that had stopped. There was no noise whatsoever.
And this thing was motoring north. It should have been rustling and leaves and grass as it went by. It was maybe, I'm guessing about 30, maybe 40 feet away from me. It was probably 50 feet away from Juliet. So we watched this thing. It made a beeline for the corner of the abandoned Homestead 2 and went behind it. And it was like, you know,
Probably a few seconds later, myself and Juliet sort of went right over to try to follow this thing to get a better view of it.
and we couldn't see any side of it. We went around the corner of the building, turned right, and there's a sort of a gap between the corner of the building and a set of trees that eventually ends up on the track that goes east-west on Skinwalker Ranch. We could not see any sign of this creature, but you know it's kind of like
the moment in time was pretty short you know maybe I don't know probably less than 30 seconds when we were looking at this there was absolute silence and it was like a sort of a version of shock when you're seeing something like this and then by the time it got behind the building I mean if we had
had the ultimate sort of planning move into high gear instead of being involved with this Oz effect. We could have got the night vision binoculars out. We searched for the creature with night vision binoculars, but we couldn't find anything. But this is an example of the kind of thing that happens on Skinwalker Ranch. And yes, it is very easy to sit on a couch or sit on an armchair and say,
Why the hell didn't you guys take your night vision binoculars out? But you had to be there. There are plenty of instances on Skinwalker Ranch when we have captured photographs, we have captured videos of fast moving orbs and this kind of thing. We have gobs of photographs of these orb-like structures on Skinwalker Ranch.
But that time, looking at this creature, you know, if I had to do it all over again, I would have had the night vision binoculars a lot more sort of prepared in my grasp. For people who want to see some of those images that you recorded or videos, where did they go? They're all in the NIDS repository, which has never been released. Is there a plan to release it?
I don't own that data set. That would have to be the owner of the data set and that would be Robert Bigelow and NIDS. I mean NIDS was a private company and it was accumulating privately held data for analysis. Now all of the data that NIDS acquired over time is still on the NIDS website
There is a cached version of the NIDS website. We wrote gobs and gobs of papers that we published on the NIDS website. All you need to do is Google National Institute for Discovery Science Wikipedia and you will find a full cached version of the NIDS website. There are dozens and dozens of papers on the NIDS website that the NIDS scientists
actually published on that website. So in terms of our published data, it's all available, you know, just happens photographs of orbs are not available, but there is a very large data set of published literature involving everything from investigations of calculations
to investigations of UFO phenomena, and they're all written up in the scientific vernacular on the NIDS website. And actually, I looked at this website yesterday, so it is actually available as we speak. So if people want to look at the raw data as published in these NIDS studies, they're all available in this cached website.
I should point out the ASAP information and database is mostly not public either. We've given in our book, we've given a glimpse of what was available. As Colin mentioned earlier, BAS produced 104 reports that were submitted to DIA, many of them with photographs and charts and all kinds of evidence. That information has not been made public. We hope that someday it will be, you know, in writing the book,
We told as much of that story as we were allowed to tell. It took 14 months for the Pentagon to sign off on our manuscript. They went through this adopter process. We did have to make some changes that they mandated, and specifically, especially about names of active duty personnel. We told as much of that story as we could, but there's a gigantic amount of information that was sent to DIA that I know a lot of FOIA requests have been filed.
This question comes from Jackson Vega.
I think it's worth a try. I had a chance to interview some guys who are sort of like the prophet Yahweh. This guy who 20 years ago said he could call in UFOs. And he'd go out and meditate and try to draw things in. And sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. There's a group of fellows that I know who have tried this, picked up the mantle, and had some amazing experiences that they've videotaped.
summoners. I think they call it summoning. So it does happen. It can happen. Stephen Greer, who did some really great early work in getting UFO whistleblowers to come forward, getting their testimony out to national media organizations, is a champion of the CE5. He charges a lot of money for people to go out into the desert with him and call in flying saucers.
A lot of people are put off by how expensive it gets and where the money goes, especially since it looks like people can do this on their own without paying Stephen Greer to do it. I don't know if it really works, but what the heck? I say it's worth giving it a try. Colm, do you have any thoughts on it? Yeah, I would agree. I think it's worth attempting it. I know that it's been attempted in multiple places.
There's been large programs in South America associated with summoning UFOs. And from the reports that I've seen, mostly not scientific reports, but books and magazine articles, that there does seem to be a level of success. But I would inject a note of caution into this is be careful what you actually summon.
It could be that these objects come in all shapes and sizes. And like we've said for the last hour or so, we don't know what the agenda of these objects are. I mean, it could be some have a benign agenda and it could be that some have not a benign agenda. So I would inject a note of caution. I personally would not do that because I have too much respect
I feel exactly the same. I've been told, Kurt, look into it and perform it. I'm not going to, at least not anytime soon, because it's playing with fire. It's worse than playing with fire. When I was speaking to Tom DeLong, he expressed similar sentiments saying that you don't know what you're dealing with and it's
it could be extremely, extremely dangerous. So I'm of that same opinion. Yeah, I mean, I, I kind of liken it to I mean, if you summon anything without
without careful sort of training and all of that, you really are opening yourself up. I would say the same goes for ayahuasca tourism, for example, and this whole idea of sort of going to somebody's place that you don't know who they are and taking a bunch of ayahuasca or DMT or any of the hallucinogenics
Again, be careful what you wish for. I mean, the originator of this whole DMT phenomenon, Rick Strassman, who was actually, you know, he was fundamental in sort of initiating the focus on DMT in the Western world.
And he did an NIH sponsored study of injecting a whole bunch of volunteers under medical supervision in New Mexico. And an enormous number of these young volunteers reported encountering these creatures and unusual people in these other realms.
But Rick Strassman later on decided to back away from that research because he found that some of these young people were having long-term psychological effects. And again, under controlled conditions, it's all very well to do this. But what are the long-term effects?
What are these entities that people are actually meeting and conversing with? I mean, do you really get the secrets of the universe or do you get something that you may not have bargained for and that you find a lot of difficulty in getting rid of? And, you know, I mean, the list goes on and on. Teenagers playing Ouija boards and what have we. You've got to have a certain amount of caution when you're approaching these kinds of phenomena.
This question comes from Richard Brewster. I just read Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. Now, with all this research being unable to come to a conclusion as to the origins or intents of the phenomenon,
Does something lead you to speculate in one extraterrestrial origin, direction versus the phenomenon being of Earth origin? I'll just say I've been, as an investigative reporter, I've been chasing this since the late 80s, I think the first
UFO-related interview I did was 1987, and I jumped into it with both feet starting in 1989. And the dominant paradigm at that time was these are ETs. Within UFO world, within the community of UFO researchers, they generally thought these are extraterrestrials or visitors from other planets who've been coming here for a long time. If you look back at the history of humanity, a recorded history,
These things have been reported in every culture on every continent throughout human history in one form or another. They've been with us a long time, maybe been here longer than us, but we still don't really know what they are. That ET paradigm, which is where I started, it changed over time, you know, reading Dr. Jacques Ballet's books.
I think the first interview I had with him in 1990, he said, look, I'll tell you, I'm going to be really disappointed if it turns out that the ultimate answer to the UFO mystery is that it's merely visitors from other planets, because he said the technology that we've seen has been demonstrated and documented over the years is they control space time.
Somehow they can manipulate gravity and time and space in ways that we don't understand. So they could be extraterrestrial and interdimensional and time travelers all at once. They could be something even more exotic that we don't understand. I think the ET explanation is one that is possible.
But we really don't know. I mean, some of these beings and their messages to contact these, they say they're from other planets. But again, I would emphasize you can't really trust them because they lied to us over the years. So ET is one possibility, but it's only one. And my suspicion is it's much more exotic and more complicated than that, that whatever it is has been here with us forever, maybe longer than us, that it lives here. It's not from some other place that it lives here.
And that's just a guess. We really don't know. And I'm not going to be the person to figure it out. Somebody's going to win a Nobel Prize someday figuring this out. But it's obviously not going to be me. Colin? Well, I think, you know, I think it's really a shame that for 75 years, a lot of really smart people have looked at this phenomenon. And, you know, there have been stops and starts and, and
small programs, large programs, but you know ultimately this requires sort of a level of funding from the National Science Foundation, from the National Institutes of Health. I mean the National Institutes of Health annual budget is 44 billion dollars or 43 billion dollars in thereabouts.
even if a small subset of that were devoted to effects, long term effects in terms of psychological effects, sociological effects, physical effects, medical effects,
of UFOs. I think that would be a window into this phenomenon if the National Science Foundation were able to fund a 10-year program that would focus on getting to the heart of what this UFO performance, all of the physics associated with
with UFOs and come up with a theoretical model based on actual data. That is really where I think this whole thing should be going because we are unfortunately in the situation where we've had small sort of programs that are trying to do something and then they get truncated or aborted and there's a certain amount of data that comes out
I think all we know at the end of the day is that what looks like some kind of intelligence seems to be interacting with the human race.
Now, is that intelligence living on the planet since before humans? Or is it coming from another dimension? Or is it coming from another planet? There really is not enough data to come down on either side. I mean, we don't even know what sort of level of, you know, I would guess agenda or
What is going to happen with this phenomenon in the future as it continues interacting with humans? It seems like over the last 75 years, there seemed to have been a set of different waves associated with how this phenomenon has been interacting.
with humans. But again, we're looking through sort of very sort of distorted viewpoints. You know, I'll give you one example. During the OSAP program, we interviewed Colonel Barry Hennessey, who is a legend at the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, also known as AFOSIPJ,
And one of the things that he said was, yes, of course the Air Force utilized the UFO phenomenon back in the 70s and 80s to disguise some of our really advanced technology programs. When an advanced version of an aircraft crashed in northern New Mexico,
In the 80s, we did a lot of behind the scene amplifying the idea that UFOs were involved in order to cover the tracks of a very advanced part of a special access program had crashed in northern New Mexico.
We know also from interviewing Colonel Hennessy that some of the so-called Northern Tier intrusions of UFOs into the Northern Tier Air Force bases, the missile bases that dot along the northern part of the United States,
near the Canadian border. Some of those were actually ours. They were intrusion detection operations to see how ready the Air Force bases were in terms of reacting to unknowns coming over. But Colonel Hennessy also told us some of the intrusions that happened were not ours.
It was like, we have no idea who they were. They were certainly not ours, but we don't know who they were. So you have this sort of constant sort of ambiguity regarding who owns what's going on. Is it ours or is it theirs? I mean, one of the analytical sort of tools that we've used at the end of OSAP was
We use this sort of idea that there's two levels of deception going on with the UFO phenomenon. One is the level of deception where the United States government and military is deceiving the public in terms of mimicking the UFO phenomenon for their own purposes in terms of operational security.
And then there's the other side of the phenomenon, where the phenomenon appears to be mimicking some of our special access programs. For example, the eruption of the large black triangles that happened throughout the United States, through Europe, and many places in South America. All of these
huge triangles seem to be very closely aligned with a lot of people would have imagined were special access programs of the United States military. But at the same time, you know, there were hundreds of cases that were mapped and investigated by our organization, National Institute for Discovery Science, and also that documented these large black triangles
that were floating at very low altitudes, rightly live over populated areas or down interstate highways.
Now, why would a special access program that was sort of top of the line technology by the United States military being so foolhardy as to, you know, be flying over populated areas, fully lit with bright lights, and sometimes altitudes reported by eyewitnesses
a couple hundred feet. I mean, that is a gross violation of national security parameters of special access programs. But yet there are hundreds and hundreds of cases of these that were very, very well documented by both National Institute for Discovery Science and by OSAP. I mean, the case that I talked about in Georgia involving this very large black triangle that was literally floating over this guy's
neighborhood that happened in 2009. I mean, it was, you know, it was not sort of way back in history. It was relatively recent, but we have these during the sort of investigative process.
We have these two layers of deception that we always have to look through in order to get to the data regarding UFOs. And that's not like a normal aspect of scientific research or analysis. Normally in the field of biology or in the field of physics, you are not looking through data or at data through a couple of layers of deception. I mean, it makes things very, very difficult
George, anything to add to that? No, just sort of playing off of what I said to begin with, as you know, as a journalist, I've tried to get my head around this and have investigated it for more than 30 years, and I don't have the answers to it. The best evidence for me, what got me interested in the subject, is the paper trail.
Our government has known for a long time these things are real. And I know the scientific community, the journalism industry have both dismissed it. They've laughed at it. They've disregarded it. They've paid very little attention over many decades. But our government, our military specifically, knows this is real. They've known it for a long time. And you can trace it
through this paper trail documents, internal reports, many of them written before the Freedom of Information Act exists in which they admit to each other candidly and documents that they never thought would ever see the light of day. This is real. It's not ours. We don't think it's Russians. It can do things we can't do. We need to figure this out. And ever since then, there have been studies of it. I have followed that paper trail and others have as well. There's a legitimate mystery here that needs to be figured out. It hasn't been figured out. It's been
dismissed and ridiculed and laughed at. And now, because of some of the information that's come forward and been made public by the likes of Dr. Colm Kelleher, Dr. Hal Putoff, Dr. Kit Green, Dr. Eric Davis, Jacques Ballet, Edgar Mitchell, serious scientists, serious professionals who've had the courage to look at this and then allowed me to be a fly on the wall. There's a lot of progress that's been made.
Hopefully, that will continue. But you can't just ignore it and ridicule it. Your viewers, Kurt, the people who listen to your program, big brain people like that, need to take a look at this. It's a legitimate mystery. It really is going on. It may be central to human existence. It may be the biggest question we ever tackle. Once we figure it out, it will change everything. We're already undergoing some changes because of the revelations of the last four years. And it's a worthwhile endeavor.
We need to fund it. It needs to be studied. We need to figure this out. That's what I would add. You mentioned that there are black helicopters that follow a UFO sighting. Do you think these helicopters are part of the phenomenon or do you think that they're government related? Is the government tracking picking up some trace? What is the purpose? If you were to speculate off, obviously, when we're talking about this topic, all of it is speculation anyway, or most of it is speculation. My guess is it's both. It's both the phenomena
That assumes different shapes these things these craft the beings themselves are shape chapters. We have a lot of anecdotal evidence over a long period of time that they can change their shape and I think some of them appear in the sky is black helicopters at the site of for example cattle mutilations which is a whole other topic we can get into.
And then there are government operatives who are monitoring the phenomena themselves, who assume that same thing, who operate, and they know that it's going to be dismissed as some weird conspiracy, some UFO related sighting. They can operate with impunity, knowing that there won't be any real investigation by science or the media.
Because it's conspiracy stuff, you know, it's wild, wacky conspiracy stories. I think in many cases, the black helicopters are both some unknown phenomena, assuming that shape and our government monitoring that phenomenon column. Yeah, back in the in the nids era, we we have we were very fortunate to meet a guy called Captain Keith Wolverton, who was stationed in Cache County, just outside Malta Air Force Base,
in the 70s and 80s. And, you know, Malstrom Air Force Base is legendary in the UFO annals because there have been so many incidents where low-flying UFOs have been documented around Malstrom Air Force Base, including during the late 1960s of the actual missile launch parameters being interfered with by UFOs.
All of that is well documented in books, but
What really struck us in talking with Captain Keith Wolverton was that he became friendly with the base commander at Mouser Air Force Base. And so the police force around Mouser Air Force Base began a very close level of cooperation between the police and the military people on the Air Force Base. So any time a UFO would show up,
Captain Keith Walverton knew about it and so he was able to document over time there would be sometimes jet aircraft launched from Alstom Air Force Base to try to intercept these UFOs. But one of the really weird features that happened during this wave of UFO activity was that
side by side with this wave of UFO activity, there was also a wave of helicopters that neither the Air Force-based personnel or the police force that were tasked with investigating, co-investigating these cases, had any idea where they were coming from. Now, I'm not talking about one or two sightings of helicopters. I'm talking about somewhere between 50 and 100 separate sightings of these
quote-unquote, black helicopters that seemed to show up in the aftermath of UFOs and layered on top of that, according to Captain Keith Wolverton, was there was a literal explosion of unusual phenomena in people's homes and around the area within a 10-20 mile radius of Maastrom Air Force Base
But the point I'm trying to make is that the Air Force base commander was well aware
of the of these black helicopters and he had the wherewithal to be able to track of where these helicopters were coming from and he ran into a brick wall. I mean he simply could not have any information on why these dozens and dozens of black helicopters were showing up around Mouss from Air Force Base usually in the aftermath of UFO sightings and launching fighter aircraft to intercept these UFO
That's one example of what I'm talking about. So we have this ambiguity regarding these helicopters. Who owns them? Who was flying them? And why are they around? I mean, some of them are obviously United States military, and some of them actually have been tracked to various locations.
that they are obviously US military helicopters, but others are just they kind of seem to disappear into the into the woodwork. And there is a big question mark about about their origins. So in answer to your question, I would say both. They're they're they're both United States military, and they're both from somewhere else. Is there any evidence that the cattle mutilations are
because of the government, that the government instigates them in some way? Well, that's a long, long story. I mean, OSAP did not do any investigations of cattle mutilations. There were two aspects that we decided
and the Defense Intelligence Agency decided we would not spend a lot of time and resources, actually three of them, one was the remote viewing that I've already discussed, the second was the cattle mutilation phenomenon, and the third one was we decided not to recruit a whole team to investigate UFO quote-unquote abductions because again that required an enormous amount of
resources that we knew at the time were not going to be available. So cat immunizations were not investigated by the OSOT program. But back in the National Institute for Discovery Science era, we actually did a lot of forensic investigations of
And again, I refer to the NIDS website, which you can find by Googling National Institute for Discovery Science on Wikipedia. And there are dozens of reports of NIDS investigations of chalomelations. I will cut to the chase basically and say that we
literally investigated dozens of mutilations. How do we investigate these? We actually had full-time veterinarian on our staff, a veterinarian who was also a PhD in pathology, so who was well used to doing necropsies, you know, animal autopsies, and so our sort of bottom line was that cattle mutilations
There was a body of evidence that was lying on the ground, and if we could get to that body quick enough after death that we might be able to get some answers.
So we evolved over many years a situation where we had a bunch of veterinarians who were accredited veterinarians on call. We had a bunch of police officers throughout the Western States and the United States also on call. So we were able to get reports of calculations extremely quickly. And the third thing that we had was that we had a menu of laboratory, analytical laboratories
at our on-call, on-speed dial, so that if we did manage to get samples, we were able to do histopathology analysis, we were able to do chemical analysis, biochemical analysis, and you know, pretty well all of the different analytical frameworks. So we were pretty well equipped at the end of NIDS to be able to investigate catamolations
And what we found was that there was really two types of mutilations. One was the standard sort of mutilation where the eye, the ear, the sex organs were removed from the animal. And during that program for NIS,
We did a lot of analytical chemistry. We did elemental analysis of the blood from mutilated animals. Occasionally we found what looked like sedatives. We used gas chromatography, mass spectrometry. We used liquid chromatography, mass spectrometry. We used inductive coupled
plasma mass spectrometry determine elemental analysis. So we threw the kitchen sink in terms of analytical capability at what was in these animals following necropsy. We also did histology analysis and we determined that yes sharp instruments were used but some of the time we used we were able to
document compounds like oxandol, succinylcholine, which are sedatives. So that made us suspicious. On other occasions, including investigations up in Montana, we were able to locate 10 gauge needles that were found under
In other cases, we were able to find medical paraphernalia associated with exsanguinating an animal. In other words, hooking up an animal to a large gauge needle and removing all the blood from the animal. So we began to get suspicious as time went on that there was
a pattern associated with some of these cases. So we put out the hypothesis that, you know, maybe this was part of a case of, you know, applying sedatives to the animals and then investigating these animals for the spread of, say, an infectious disease organism. And, you know, a lot of these infectious disease could be through the Western herds in the United States.
We investigated or we put out the hypothesis that maybe some of these infectious proteins called prions might have been the source of concern
as they were sort of exploding in the United Kingdom and Europe in the 1990s and killing a lot of people who were eating contaminated meat. So there might have been a small, very, very small program. All you need is a couple of trained veterinarians, a couple of skilled surgeons, a couple of helicopters, a very small program, in other words, that could monitor the spread of an infectious organism
through the cattle in the wild in the western part of the United States. Why would you want to do that rather than going to, say, slaughterhouses and abattoirs and sampling from there? The answer to that is you would not get the same amount of data from sampling abattoirs and slaughterhouses as you would by flying in at night
and basically sampling animals within several hundred miles if you were trying to track the spread of an infectious organism. Prion is an infectious protein that was responsible for
destruction of millions of animals in the United Kingdom and Europe, and it was a source of huge amounts of concern in the United States in the 1990s, especially the FDA and the USDA, the United States Department of Agriculture
were very concerned about the spread of this. So that was one hypothesis we came up with. Why did we come up with this? Because we use forensic analysis to determine that somebody was using sharp instruments on these animals to cut them open. We found that unequivocally from the histopathology analysis. And then we found all of these suspicious compounds
through standard forensic analytical chemistry and we also found evidence of medical hardware underneath and associated with a small number of these animals. So you know that we put out this hypothesis and again it's these published papers are on the news website if people want to take a look at them. Let me add this
Hypothesis was there are two levels of mutilators, mystery mutilators. There's the original one that's been carrying this out for decades under the cover of night, carving up animals with surgical precision, removing the same sort of parts, not leaving behind certain compounds, not leaving behind medical instruments.
It's a complete mystery how it's carried out. There were some cases where high heat instrumentation was used in these cases, the classic mutilation stories that we've always heard. NIDS investigated those, and most of the cases they investigated did not show these kind of telltale signs of human intervention. Someone, mystery mutilators, have been carrying this out for decades over a broad part of the United States and other parts of the world.
then later there were an additional level of mutilators who came in under the umbrella of this seemingly paranormal mystery who operated with impunity thinking they can get away with it. No one's really going to seriously investigate it because it's the space people doing these mysterious mutilations. There were cases on the ranch, for example, that defy explanation. I'm thinking of one in particular
There were something like 14 head of cattle that vanished, that you'd see the tracks lead out into the snow and then the cow is gone as if it sucked up into the sky. There were cases that the neighbors reported of cattle that seemed to have been dropped from the sky, their legs were broken. There were cases on the ranch, one in particular that we wrote about in the hunt for the skinwalker, the rancher and his wife had had all this bizarre activity on their property. They carry on. They were really financially strapped because of the loss of these very expensive animals.
It's a Sunday morning, it's a bright sunny day, quiet out there in the country. They go out to tag the ears of newborn calves. They had several calves on their pasture.
going to tag the ears, which is a process that the ranchers do to identify these animals. There's a calf and its mom 50 yards from the house where they live. That's the first one they come to. They tag the ear of this newborn calf. They move off across the property again, very quiet. There's no obstruction. The weather is calm. They go off on the property. About 30 minutes or so later, a dog that's traveling with them alerts them that something's going on. So they look back at this calf, the first one that they had tagged,
And the mom, the cow, is going around in circles. Its eyes are bulging out. It's obviously distressed. It's dragging its leg behind it. Rancher and his wife go back over there to where this calf was. This calf is completely emaciated. It is wiped out. It is stripped of all its flesh. The only thing left is bones and hide. There's no blood in the animal. There's no blood on the ground. 75 pounds of meat gone. How did it happen?
Why didn't they, why weren't they able to hear it? Could a predator, what predator comes in and wipes out a calf and makes no sound and leaves no blood? NIDS team brought in a tracker, professional tracker, to look for animal tracks.
to look for human tracks, vehicle tracks, didn't find it. They took samples of that, sent it to two different pathology labs. The investigators figured out that two different cutting instruments had been used, something like a heavy machete to whack off chunks of flesh and then something with the scalpel type precision. How does that happen?
How does it happen in broad daylight that nobody sees it now? Is that the mystery government mutilators, a team of commandos comes in completely undetected and wipes out this cap and leaves it there for people to find? Or is it something else? I think it's probably something else. Maybe Colin wants to add to that. Well, you know that it goes back to the idea that
It's very, very easy for a team of people who are sampling, carrying out these illegal killings of cattle sampling at night, because you've got two things that are working for you. And that is number one, you've got this whole aura of UFOs associated with cattle mutilations and no respectable veterinarian
or no respectable police officer wants to have anything to do with this if there's even the taint of quote unquote aliens associated with it. And the second thing that you have going for you is you have the decomposition process, especially in summer. I mean, the decomposition process of a cow is extremely rapid.
because their entire rumen, which is the second or third stomach that they have, is loaded with bacteria and microorganisms which actually chew up the entire flesh extremely quickly. So all you have to do if you are actually sampling an animal on the ground is wait for 48 hours
And pretty well all of the evidence is gone by means of Mother Nature. You don't even have to cover up your tracks. All you have to do is take your samples and get out of there. But you know what George is saying is absolutely true. There were a small number of these cases
that where we documented and they were obviously not the perpetrators that I've been talking about. There was something else going on and we documented cases in Northern California. They also had this weird effect that George described of the case in Utah. We documented other cases in California too. So there was a small component of these that had this
bazaar paranormal taint
to it. And then you had this other large number of cases that were consistent with some kind of a sampling exercise. And, you know, it's the same kind of thing as the UFO phenomenon. The United States government used the UFO phenomenon as a way of covering up their special access programs. So maybe some sort of small contractor was using the UFO Lord associated with academy relations to also cover up their tracks.
George and Collum, I know you both have to go, so how about I read two questions and you can choose one of them. So this one comes from Steven Greenstreet and he wants to know, what is the best piece of evidence of something paranormal occurring at Skinwalker Ranch? And I'll add an addendum, best public piece of evidence.
The second question is Chris123456789 says, and this is a wonderful question. Okay. If there were no observer to witness these UAPs, Bigfoot, cattle mutilations, dark shadow, et cetera, would they still happen? How much of these phenomenon are perhaps co-created by a consciousness observing them? Are these phenomenon independent entities with lives, history, goals, instincts of their own? Or are they manifestations for the benefit of a conscious observer
I think you should take that one, Colin. Well, I mean, you have brought up the sort of, or your listener, that's a very sort of loaded question, because it does get into this whole
sort of dichotomy between observer versus observed, it gets into sort of these quantum realities of whether or not observers interfere with experiments at the quantum level. And also it does sort of raise the question of what exactly is human consciousness and
One of the aspects that has been really intriguing me in the last five to 10 years, there really has been a sort of a literal explosion of new people who are entering the field of the investigation of
human consciousness. And there, you know, some of these people are sort of taking a stance on human consciousness that is away from the standard dogma that we've had for about 100 years, which is that consciousness arises as a result of neurochemical trafficking in the brain. And some of these people like, you know, I can think of Bernardo Kastrup in the Netherlands,
and Donald Hoffman who was a professor at UC Irvine, Federico Fahin who is literally the inventor of the microprocessor at Intel Corporation. I mean talk about hard-nosed materialists but I mean he's written a book or two books I think recently
that are basically saying that consciousness may not arise as a result of neurochemical trafficking in the brain. We've got people like Edward, Professor Edward Kelly, at the Division of Persexual Studies at the University of Virginia. And even in the biological arena, you've got Professor Robert Lanza, who's written a couple of books on biocentrism,
I mean, these people are also all saying the same thing that, you know, consciousness is prime, you know, consciousness is really the sort of the mover and the shaker in this whole equation. So, you know, Bernardo Castro, especially has sort of written some of the blogs that he's written for Scientific American and elsewhere, he's really reduced it down to sort of concepts that
you know, even a biologist like myself can understand. And that is, you know, he's, he's put out this concept, you know, of, you know, maybe, maybe our, our sense of reality is actually more like the dashboard of an aircraft, and that you're flying an aircraft via instruments
And outside this aircraft, there's a sort of a storm and there's a whole lot of different things happening. But the pilot of the aircraft is flying purely by use of this instrumentation. And so, you know, the translation of the metaphor into human consciousness is that human perception is a function of the dashboard
and our five senses are essentially the instrumentation that we're flying with through life and outside these five senses there's a whole world that we are not perceiving and so one hypothesis of the intersection of UFOs versus this sort of
avant-garde way of looking at human consciousness is that maybe UFOs are outside the dashboard and they they seem to appear or disappear at sort of out of whim or sort of in a very sort of fast way maybe they're outside this sort of dashboard and that you know people in the future as they attack the UFO phenomenon we need sort of people who are
part of this vanguard of human consciousness research, because there may be overlaps that we just have not looked at. And, you know, the sort of the standard way of looking at the UFO phenomenon, especially sort of from the perspective of the military intelligence apparatus is
We are going to study only the UFO performance. We're going to study only the five observables or the six observables, the parameters of a UFO that make it extremely unlikely that it is, you know, a special access program.
from the United States. And that's all we're going to do. Everything else is off the table because quote unquote, it's not a part of the mandate from the United States security apparatus. But guess what, you know, maybe the UFO phenomenon doesn't care at all about the security parameters of the United States on what constitutes
Security parameters and what constitutes a viable way of investigating this phenomenon. Maybe the United States military is going to investigate using this narrow perspective and completely miss the boat.
I mean we've seen and heard snippets and rumors and innuendo that some of these tic-tac-tac pilots had long-term effects, you know, that might even include long-term effects on their psychology and maybe their health or maybe their consciousness. So I see going forward that, you know, we really need to broaden the scope of the UFO investigative
framework as opposed to narrowing it. And I don't care what a bureaucrat from undersecretary of defense for intelligence decides to say what is part of the United States military perspective or not. I don't think the UFO phenomenon really cares. As for the question from Stephen about the best evidence regarding the ranch of paranormal events,
I'd answer it this way. I mean, Robert Bigelow in an interview we did years ago and then another one last year, it's maddening what happens at the ranch. It's frustrating in that whatever the intelligence is that's there, it calls the shots. We get to see what it allows us to see. The most compelling accounts come from eyewitnesses, the people who've been on the property. Bigelow bought the ranch in the mid-90s. There's been a constant presence there since.
The NID study, the OSAP study, and then the current efforts by Brandon Fugel, and all three of those groups have experienced the same kinds of things. It's never exactly the same. The only thing that's predictable is its unpredictability. A lot of the accounts, the very compelling stories, are things that people see once and then it's gone. This intelligence, and I think it is an intelligence, plays games. It's a trickster. It messes with your mind. It always seems to know what you are going to do before you do it.
So dramatic incidents can happen, and there's nothing left behind to prove that it ever happened. But occasionally, it has a physical effect. It has physical, demonstrable, measurable effects. For example, what happens to the animals? You have cattle that are mutilated. You have cats that are carved up in the middle of the night in a snowstorm. Dogs that are incinerated. Horses that are slashed by these crypto creatures. Those things happen. They were documented.
You have physical effects for example there were four large bulls during the nids era that were in this corral the rancher and his wife are going to town they've already lost a lot of different heads of livestock they're in danger of going under financially they say to each other casually boy if something happens to one of those bulls we're in big trouble they come back in less than an hour later all four of the bulls are gone in a panic they go looking for them
Somehow those four bulls had been, in essence, dematerialized from the corral and crammed into this tiny storage shed adjacent to this corral. They're in there. The rancher finds them. They're kind of in a trance crammed in there. You could not get these bulls into there with a forklift and a team of army commandos, but somehow they got in there. They let the bulls out. The bulls kick off the side of it. They get out. They're very surly in a bad mood. Photos are taken.
The subsequent physical effects that were measured by the NIDS guys where the entire metal corral had been magnetized and it stayed magnetized for a couple of days. There are all these measurable EM effects and effects on equipment. For example, all three of those organizations
have put all kinds of cameras out there camera gear both up on on on poles and at different places of the ranch and they carry gear compasses and other sensors to try to document effects this phenomena whatever it is laughs at it.
It will knock out compasses. Compasses will spin around. They're of no use. You have a camera. The batteries drain. The camera dies right before something happens where the camera would have been able to document it. It's infuriating. It's frustrating to try to document things, but it happens over and over again over a period of almost close to 30 years now. So there are measurable effects. There was an ice circle that we documented during the NIDS period that the NIDS guys documented.
an impossible thing that was carved in this tiny little thin layer of ice. They can't figure out how it happened. There was one instance where something went up a 75 foot telephone pole where they had a camera and destroyed it while another camera was watching it. Whatever did it was invisible. It's very frustrating. I think it's frustrating on purpose. It gives us glimpses
of this other reality at times. There were holes in the sky that would appear and craft would come in and out. There were craft that seemed to fly directly into Skinwalker Ridge that defy our physics. There were other craft that were, you know, the rancher and the family there in the first years that they were there. They'd see these things.
They're not trying to document it for a UFO audience. They're trying to survive out there on what they thought was their dream property. They end up giving it up and moving away because they were so frustrated by what happened to them. So it is difficult to document. It is a challenge to document it, but it's an intriguing challenge. It's an exciting challenge, and it's one we have to take on. There is physical evidence that can be examined and investigated. A lot of the things that happen are not in the physical realm. That makes it more of a challenge, I would think.
Thank you so much, George. Thank you so much, Colin. I appreciate it. There are more than 3,000 people watching. So say hello to them. Many of them are just expressing their thanks and plaudits toward you all. So thank you so much. It's a pleasure. It's a blessing. Thank you. Thanks, Kurt. Talk to you again. Thank you. It's been really good to have this discussion. Enjoyable.
Okay, and like I mentioned, we'll look into a part two in a few months. So if anyone has lingering questions, just write them down. Take care. I'll stick around to speak with the audience if I can. Okay. Okay. Yeah, no, it's not a sickness like that. What I'm feeling it's something else. It's not it's not a virus. It's nothing like that. It's more
I can't talk about it. Okay, so let's see. Wolfstein, thank you. Jacob asks, what work can individuals do to contribute to the study of this? I believe somewhere around 35 minutes into this, maybe 40 minutes into this. Column outlines some of that. So I'll go and look into that. And I will try to timestamp that.
Oral Decoy says, vertigo and anxiety, I can relate. Yeah, I would say that it's not vertigo, but anxiety. Wilheim says, Linda Moulton deserves an apologize. So I know what you mean, an apology. And I, I don't want to talk about this publicly because it doesn't, it's not, it's like praying in public. It's not something that should be done, but I did apologize to Linda. Thank you. Thank you everyone for your, your kind comments.
A couple people were mentioned. Bernardo Castroff was mentioned. Donald Hoffman was mentioned. Just so you know, there's an interview with Bernardo Castroff. I'm going to link that. It's going to be in the description. Same with Donald Hoffman on this channel. I think they're some of the best with them. And that's not because of myself. It's because I happen to catch them at great days on their best behavior. And
Donald Hoffman is also coming on live on Sunday with Yoshabok to talk about consciousness. After Salvatore Pais and Gary Nolan, which will occur in a few weeks or so, I'm thinking of taking a lengthy break from this UFO content. I tend to take matters on this channel extremely seriously, whether they're about consciousness theories or physics or what have you, and it's extremely destabilizing to me. Perhaps I shouldn't be taking them as seriously as I do, but I
but I treat them, well, I take them seriously. There's this quote by Rene Descartes which says something like, which says something like, I've fallen unexpectedly into a deep whirlpool and I can't stand at the bottom nor swim to the top. So that's much like how I feel. And I want to also make sure that what I'm doing on this UFO topic is fresh and salutary. And while the comment section is filled with plaudits,
I want to make sure that the adulation or the approbation is directed toward the toe approach or the questions asked. I want to make sure that that I'm... Well, I don't I don't see it. It doesn't mean it's not there. It's just that I don't see it. So I need to be able to see it. And I also want to make sure that I'm... There's so much there. I want to make sure that this is... It's obvious that these videos are quite popular on the toe channel. They're the most popular. And I fear
I want to make sure that what I'm doing I'm not doing I'm not pursuing because it's favored and it's so like I don't feel like I am I feel like I'm genuine about it and and I'm earnest but I know how easy it is to delude oneself into pursuing what's popular so I need to take some time and collect myself I've seen people like even even Jordan Peterson go down that route
where he has great work in psychology and religion, and now almost all of his content is about being anti-woken and so on. I feel like he became embittered from that and followed some of the crowd. I need to make sure that I'm not doing that. I need to make sure that what I'm doing is not selfish and not filled with perfidy, mendacity, lies and deceit. Not that it is, but I'm saying that
I need to introspect some more, but I also do too much introspection. I'm a bit extreme on that. There is an upside to it though, that it would give some of the, let's think of the Toe project as being split into two audiences, the UFO audience and then those who are more interested in the STEM.
fields. While it may be true that those who are in the STEM fields, like the theoretical math and physics, should be more interested in the phenomenon and that learning a little bit about it can aid their understanding of STEM. While that's true, I think the flip side is also true where understanding even a modicum of the foundations of mathematics and physics may aid one's understanding of the phenomenon. So perhaps it will give some of the people who are on the more UFO oriented end of the Toe audience or the Toe projects audience
a link to that in the description.
Jasmine says, are you going to address how ridiculously ignorant and disrespectful your chat is always when these topics are being discussed? Well, I wouldn't say my chat. It's so tricky. The chat that happens on the videos that are posted on this channel. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't have time to look through these when I'm speaking. And I do with regard to Linda Moulton Howe, I do condemn the comments that speak ill of her, especially with derision.
I don't think that one should be derogatory toward Linda or any guest. You can be derogatory toward me. The Toe Project is about love. It's about clemency. So please, if you're being snide and you're despising, then that's not the compassionate understanding that the Toe Project is trying to emulate. So I'll say that. No, also keep in mind, keep in mind, hey, for something this fractious,
This controversial, this topic that's so alarming, the comments are actually extremely civil. So that I'm surprised about while obviously there are there are negative comments. I'm almost always surprised to how much positive comments there are. There's so much that I want to say about that Linda Moulton Howe interview. There's so much that I regret and so much that I I just but I feel like what I would be doing would be justifying myself like a little child.
And I don't want to do that. I just want to take my lumps. Though there's so much that is false that I've read, for example, Linda was under the impression that I didn't read or go through the material that she sent, which is false. I watched all of what she sent as for reading. Well, she has plenty of work and there were tomes, so I wasn't able to read all of it, though I skimmed it.
And I feel like that contributed to a negative impression of her toward me. I feel like my questions were ill timed. I feel like it's false to say that I was harder on her than I was on other guests. And someone keeps saying, yeah, but your average guess. What do you mean average?
in statistics you don't look at the average you look at variance like you have to look there's something they're higher order corrective terms variance is one of them because if it unless a distribution is simple then average means nothing and i would say it was in the variance of the channel the way that i spoke with her it doesn't mean that i spoke optimally but i would i wouldn't say it was drastically different and i do regret it i do regret how it happened some people say yeah you didn't push back enough or you pushed back too much my role on this toe
channel is not to be a skeptic or to push back. That's not how I see it. I don't think in terms of that. I don't even think in terms of well, how many I have to have one hard question per every five questions. I just wanted to know if she was aware of the criticisms of her work, which is why I kept bringing it up. I didn't hear the answers from her. So I would repeat questions. And thus we spent more time on the criticisms, quote unquote criticisms, because I had to keep repeating the questions because she would give
An answer that was five to 10 minutes long and I couldn't hear the response to my inquiry in there. Now there's someone like Lou Alessandro, who's infamous for not answering the question. So why is it any different with him? Well, the difference with Lou is that Lou, Lou is self aware that he's not answering the questions directly. And we'll even bring it up. Like he'll either say, I can't answer it because of reasons X, Y, and Z, or he'll
So I'll give an answer that's parenthetically related or metaphorically related or thematically related. And also there were shorter answers. Whereas with Linda, I would wait, I'm listening, I'm listening. I'm like, Linda, I didn't quite hear the answer to that. And also as for speaking with her for two and a half hours, the interview was essentially of unspecified time.
And she had just come from proudly stating that she has more energy than she's ever had and that she works 18 hour days and that she speaks at conferences for hours on end. So I didn't think it was uncouth to ask her, hey, can you answer a couple more questions? I know we've been going for two and a half hours. In fact, I was taking her at her word when she said that she had more energy than she's ever had. Either way, I just have to move forward from that. Okay. Well, everyone. Thank you. Take care, everyone. I appreciate you all being here.
The podcast is now finished. If you'd like to support conversations like this, then do consider going to patreon.com slash C-U-R-T-J-A-I-M-U-N-G-A-L. That is Kurt Jaimungal. It's support from the patrons and from the sponsors that allow me to do this full time. Every dollar helps tremendously. Thank you.
▶ View Full JSON Data (Word-Level Timestamps)
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"text": " The Economist covers math, physics, philosophy, and AI in a manner that shows how different countries perceive developments and how they impact markets. They recently published a piece on China's new neutrino detector. They cover extending life via mitochondrial transplants, creating an entirely new field of medicine. But it's also not just science they analyze."
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"text": " This is Martian Beast Mode Lynch. Prize pick is making sports season even more fun. On prize picks, whether you're a football fan, a basketball fan, you'll always feel good to be ranked. Right now, new users get $50 instantly in lineups when you play your first $5. The app is simple to use. Pick two or more players. Pick more or less on their stat projections. Anything from touchdown to threes. And if you're right, you can win big. Mix and match players from"
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"text": " In this interview is a plenitude of acronyms and names. For example, ASAP and Axelrod are mentioned profusely. Because many people are new to this topic, there's a link in the description outlining what each of the acronyms and names refer to specifically. Use this as a compendium or an index to not get overwhelmed, as this topic can indeed be overwhelming even for the acquainted."
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"text": " Today's guests are George Knapp and Colm Kelleher on the topic of UFOs, the hitchhiker effect, and the recent book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, linked in the description. In fact, any time a book, an article, a video is referenced in the Toll Podcast, I've most likely placed a link to it in the description."
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"text": " George Knapp is an investigative journalist, a news anchor, a talk radio host who has so many awards that I have to read them verbatim, and this still isn't an exhaustive list. He's been recognized with the Edward R. Murrow Awards, Peabody Awards, and dozens of Pacific Southwest Regional Emmy Awards."
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"text": " Calm Kelleher is a biochemist with more than 15 years of research in cell and molecular biology. For the past eight years, Calm has been using forensic science methodologies to investigate scientific anomalies associated with the phenomenon. Click on the timestamp in the description if you'd like to skip this intro."
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"text": " My name is Kurt Jaimungal. I'm a Torontonian filmmaker with a background in mathematical physics dedicated to the explication of the variegated terrain of theories of everything, from a theoretical physics perspective, but as well as analyzing consciousness and seeing its potential connection to fundamental reality, whatever that is. Essentially, this channel is dedicated to exploring the underived nature of reality, the constitutional laws that govern it, provided those laws exist at all and are even knowable to us."
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"text": " If you enjoy witnessing and engaging with others on the topics of psychology, consciousness, physics, etc., the channel's themes, then do consider going to the Discord and the subreddit, which are linked in the description. There's also a link to the Patreon, that is patreon.com slash Kurt Jaimungal, if you'd like to support this podcast as the patrons and the sponsors are the only reasons that I'm able to have podcasts of this quality and this depth"
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"text": " Given that I can do this now full-time, thanks to both the patrons and the sponsors' support. Speaking of sponsors, there are two. The first sponsor is Brilliant. During the winter break, I decided to brush up on some of the fundamentals of physics, particularly with regard to information theory, as I'd like to interview Chiara Marletto on constructor theory, which is heavily based in information theory."
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"text": " It seems like it comes down from the sky arbitrarily. And with Brilliant, for the first time, I was able to see how the formula for entropy, which you're seeing right now, is actually extremely natural. And it'd be strange to define it in any other manner. There are plenty of courses, and you can even learn group theory, which is what's being referenced when you hear that the standard model is predicated on U1 cross SU2 cross SU3. Those are Lie groups, continuous Lie groups. Visit brilliant.org slash totoe to get 20% off an annual subscription."
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"text": " And I recommend that you don't stop before four lessons. I think you'll be greatly surprised at the ease at which you can now comprehend subjects you previously had a difficult time grokking. The second sponsor is Algo. Now, Algo is an end-to-end supply chain optimization software company with software that helps business users optimize sales and operations, planning to avoid stockouts, reduce return and inventory write downs while reducing inventory investment."
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"text": " It's a supply chain AI that drives smart ROI headed by Amjad Hussein, who's been a huge supporter of this podcast since near its inception. In fact, Amjad has his own podcast on AI and consciousness and business growth. And if you'd like to support the Toe podcast, then visit the link in the description to see Amjad's podcast because subscribing to him or at least visiting supports the Toe podcast indirectly. Thank you and enjoy."
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"text": " I'm also not feeling terribly well. So if I am not at my tip top shape, please forgive me. Okay. It seems like we're live. Great. Great. Great. Okay. Welcome, column. Welcome, George. Thank you so much for being here. Man. Okay. This is such a pleasure. I've been looking forward to this and many, many, many people have been looking forward to this. So we'll get straight to the questions. Forget about intros. I'll edit in an intro later."
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"text": " George, this one's directed to you. Why don't you explain to the people who are unacquainted what the hitchhiker effect is? We don't exactly know. And I think a hitchhiker effect should probably be plural, not just a singular form of the term, because there are many effects. The Bass team first noticed it in correlation to things that happened to people who visited Skinwalker Ranch. In particular, there were at least five, maybe six intelligence officials who, during the OSAP program,"
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"text": " over seen and funded by the Defense Intelligence Agency. These intelligence officials visited Skinwalker Ranch."
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"text": " had an encounter with something unusual and then took something home with it. We don't know exactly how it works, we don't know why it happens, but it's happened over and over again. It not only happened to those people during the OSAP bass period, but it happened to people who had visited the ranch during the NIDS era and even before that, where people would go to this property, encounter unusual phenomena, UFOs, whatever, and then they would go home and they were visited at their home by"
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"text": " orbs, by craft, by crypto type beings, poltergeist type activity broke out in their homes. In one particular instance that we describe in the book, there were these very seasoned intelligence officials who as part of the Bass OSAP program went to the ranch to check it out for themselves. They're walking in the middle homestead,"
},
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"text": " at night, it's cold and suddenly gets much colder. They hit a cold spot where it goes, the temperature drops dramatically in a matter of seconds. And they were sort of on high alert. In fact, these guys were on high alert the whole time they were on the ranch because they'd read and heard about it."
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"text": " And they encountered some sort of an intelligence that had a sort of a menacing presence. It sort of froze them in their tracks. They backed off. And later when they went home, they had an eruption of paranormal activity in their homes. It is generally the way it works is it spreads to their family members, the family members, wives, children, see these things ahead of time. The one character in our book, Axelrod, not his real name,"
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"end_time": 550.845,
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"text": " We had to change that at the direction of the Pentagon when we submitted the manuscript. He had this explosion of activity in his home that was seen by his wife. She saw this standing on two legs, a wolf creature, a wolf standing in her yard. Its paws crossed like this, leaning on a tree, staring back at her. A couple of days later, she didn't tell anybody about it. A couple of days later, her kids see it. They scream. This thing runs off down the street. They can see it's running on two legs."
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"end_time": 580.862,
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"text": " It's kicking up leaves and they didn't know what the hell to think about it. But there were other things that happened in the home, beings, shadowy figures seen in the home, things moving around on their own. Their pet had been moved. They found their dog up on the roof one day. All kinds of trickster type activity. And then it spread from the kids to their friends in the neighborhood. That has happened a bunch of times. It happened. There was a female agent who we detail in the book, a very seasoned, battle hardened professional."
},
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"end_time": 592.056,
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"text": " Who encountered something with column and he can tell you about it. They encountered some kind of a creature crypto creature that people have dubbed the dino beaver again in the middle homestead this woman when she goes back home."
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"text": " It's an immediate explosion of what you call poltergeist type activity. Not saying it is poltergeist, it's just similar to that kind of activity that's been reported over the decades by poltergeist researchers in her home. A wine bottle flies across the room from one side of the room, smashes on the wall on the other side. There are beings that she sees at the side of her bed, things moving around in her home. It was so dramatic that her roommate, who was her fiance, moved out, ended that relationship."
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"text": " This activity has continued for years. Collum will tell you it's happened to pretty much all of us who've spent a lot of time on the ranch, including me. I've never seen anything on Skinwalker Ranch, but my wife has experienced things at my home. Collum's wife has experienced things in their home. Bob Bigelow's wife experienced things in their home. Some of it is benign and interesting and some of it is downright scary. We don't know why it happens."
},
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"text": " But column with his biology background can explain better about sort of the effect of how it spreads. It's like a virus. You mentioned it's benign and sometimes deleterious. Is any of it positive? Not that I know of. Maybe column has heard about that. I mean, it's positive in the sense of, wow, I got to see something really strange there. It's kind of kind of thrilling. My wife, the first time something happened at our home,"
},
{
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"text": " And I tried to make this happen for a long time before I knew about the hitchhiker effect. I would bring things home from Skinwalker Ranch to my house, try to engage whatever it was, bits of rocks and scrap and things taken from the homesteads, little tiny bits and pieces to try to get it going. And finally it happened and it wasn't pleasant. My wife saw these"
},
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"start_time": 687.585,
"text": " blue orbs floating over our house at night. She called me to come up and see them by the time I got there, they were gone. And then there was an experience in our bedroom where this thing came in. I'm not going to go into a lot of detail on that, but it was a very frightening experience for her, unpleasant, and she didn't want it to happen again."
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"text": " Well, you know, the interesting thing about the hitchhiker effect is that it is very, very reproducible. You know, George said that, you know, back in the, even in the 90s, the NIDS people were experiencing this effect."
},
{
"end_time": 745.486,
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"start_time": 723.336,
"text": " But in terms of reproducibility, we know that going into between the NIDS era, which ended really in 2003, and the BAS era, the OSAP era, which happened really beginning in 2008-2009, multiple security officers were deployed on the Skidmarker Ranch property."
},
{
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"start_time": 746.032,
"text": " A lot of those people we've personally interviewed about a dozen of them and a lot of those people have brought quote unquote brought something home. Same kind of thing poltergeist activity in the house sometimes they see orbs in the house."
},
{
"end_time": 781.954,
"index": 35,
"start_time": 760.879,
"text": " And then getting into the OSAP era where everything seemed to really escalate. And these five out of five, 100% of the military intelligence people who were deployed at the request of the Defense Intelligence Agency onto Skinwalker Ranch did, as George said, bring something home with them."
},
{
"end_time": 808.626,
"index": 36,
"start_time": 781.954,
"text": " And, you know, even after Robert Bigelow sold Skinwalker Ranch, we have a new era of Brandon Fugel, the property developer from Utah purchased the ranch. He installed a team on the property. And lo and behold, we have another set of instances of the hitchhiker effect. And remember, the people who went on Skinwalker Ranch in 2016,"
},
{
"end_time": 834.036,
"index": 37,
"start_time": 808.951,
"text": " were very, very skeptical and they were saying, this is all, you know, this is not absolutely, you know, this is all fantasy. And then stuff started erupting in their homes. They brought something home with them and multiple instances. So in terms of reproducibility, the hitchhiker effect has continuously affected people that we know of for about 25 years."
},
{
"end_time": 850.572,
"index": 38,
"start_time": 834.036,
"text": " It may be longer on Skinwalker Ranch. And the second point I wanted to make was that it is not only Skinwalker Ranch. It is not sort of only happening on Skinwalker Ranch, but a lot of UFO activity"
},
{
"end_time": 879.138,
"index": 39,
"start_time": 851.425,
"text": " does seem to give rise to the Skinwalker or the Hitchhiker effect. For people who have never been on Skinwalker Ranch and just interact with the UFO phenomenon, they themselves in some cases, I'm not saying in all cases, but in some cases and mostly where we have the luxury of being able to study these people over many months or many years, a lot of these people"
},
{
"end_time": 891.732,
"index": 40,
"start_time": 879.633,
"text": " You know, report elements of the hitchhiker effect. You know, it's kind of ironic but going all the way back to 1947 Kenneth Arnold, when he saw those nine"
},
{
"end_time": 912.108,
"index": 41,
"start_time": 892.142,
"text": " Objects in the sky over the Cascade Mountains in June of 1947. It's interesting, long after he died, his daughter went on a radio show. She was talking about writing a book about his life, but she started talking about seeing orbs in the Arnold home."
},
{
"end_time": 929.531,
"index": 42,
"start_time": 912.415,
"text": " They have experienced various poltergeist effects. Even Kenneth Arnold himself in his book talks about, you know, some really weird happenings that were happening after the June 24, 1947."
},
{
"end_time": 952.705,
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"start_time": 929.531,
"text": " unambiguously tying what happened to Kenneth Arnold to some form of the hitchhiker effect, but I'm saying that this effect is not just a skinwalker ranch specific effect. It happens on a much broader scale. You've been researching in this area for decades or at least plenty and plenty of years. What piece of evidence do you find most striking, most remarkable?"
},
{
"end_time": 963.78,
"index": 44,
"start_time": 953.114,
"text": " For whatever reason, so one could be because it's incontrovertible evidence toward the existence of X or Y or it led to some new research area. Hear that sound?"
},
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"text": " That's the sweet sound of success with Shopify. Shopify is the all-encompassing commerce platform that's with you from the first flicker of an idea to the moment you realize you're running a global enterprise. Whether it's handcrafted jewelry or high-tech gadgets, Shopify supports you at every point of sale, both online and in person. They streamline the process with the internet's best converting checkout, making it 36% more effective than other leading platforms."
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"text": " There's also something called Shopify Magic, your AI-powered assistant that's like an all-star team member working tirelessly behind the scenes. What I find fascinating about Shopify is how it scales with your ambition. No matter how big you want to grow, Shopify gives you everything you need to take control and take your business to the next level. Join the ranks of businesses in 175 countries that have made Shopify the backbone."
},
{
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"text": " of their commerce. Shopify, by the way, powers 10% of all e-commerce in the United States, including huge names like Allbirds, Rothies, and Brooklynin. If you ever need help, their award-winning support is like having a mentor that's just a click away. Now, are you ready to start your own success story? Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com"
},
{
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"text": " Go to Shopify.com slash theories now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in Shopify.com slash theories"
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"text": " Razor blades are like diving boards. The longer the board, the more the wobble, the more the wobble, the more nicks, cuts, scrapes. A bad shave isn't a blade problem, it's an extension problem. Henson is a family-owned aerospace parts manufacturer that's made parts for the International Space Station and the Mars Rover."
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"text": " Now they're bringing that precision engineering to your shaving experience. By using aerospace-grade CNC machines, Henson makes razors that extend less than the thickness of a human hair. The razor also has built-in channels that evacuates hair and cream, which make clogging virtually impossible. Henson Shaving wants to produce the best razors, not the best razor business, so that means no plastics, no subscriptions, no proprietary blades, and no planned obsolescence."
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"text": " It's also extremely affordable. The Henson razor works with the standard dual edge blades that give you that old school shave with the benefits of this new school tech. It's time to say no to subscriptions and yes to a razor that'll last you a lifetime. Visit hensonshaving.com slash everything."
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"text": " If you use that code, you'll get two years worth of blades for free. Just make sure to add them to the cart. Plus 100 free blades when you head to H E N S O N S H A V I N G dot com slash everything and use the code everything."
},
{
"end_time": 1152.005,
"index": 53,
"start_time": 1135.469,
"text": " I think one of the most remarkable things that we found during the OSAP program, and again, the OSAP program was a 24-month program that started in 2008 and ended in 2010,"
},
{
"end_time": 1167.363,
"index": 54,
"start_time": 1152.363,
"text": " But, you know, for the first time we had a large team we had about 50 people who were employed full time at also, and then we had $22 million allocated through the Defense Intelligence Agency for a two year period so."
},
{
"end_time": 1196.988,
"index": 55,
"start_time": 1167.363,
"text": " It's very rare in the UFO field to have the luxury of resources and being able to study people over long periods of time after they've encountered UFOs. So I guess one of the most remarkable sort of discoveries that we made during the OSAP program was the intense medical effects that some of these UFO cases"
},
{
"end_time": 1201.937,
"index": 56,
"start_time": 1197.5,
"text": " cause in some people. I'll give you an example."
},
{
"end_time": 1230.367,
"index": 57,
"start_time": 1202.739,
"text": " One of the sentinel cases that we actually investigated over about a year actually and it went into almost a two-year investigation was that this biotechnologist and his daughter were driving towards Bend, Oregon in their vehicle on their way home and the daughter notices three small UFOs, a bluish color that were darting around in the field beside them"
},
{
"end_time": 1248.933,
"index": 58,
"start_time": 1230.367,
"text": " Once she noticed them, they immediately made a beeline for the vehicle as they were driving and one of them went right across the windshield. One of them came into the car and went right across the windshield."
},
{
"end_time": 1277.142,
"index": 59,
"start_time": 1248.933,
"text": " inside the vehicle but the third one actually went through the left shoulder of this biotechnologist, went through the upper thoracic cavity and then emerged from the right shoulder and then shot out through the window right in front of the daughter. I mean this was a terrifying episode for the daughter especially as she was witnessing all of this but you know within I would say 24 to 48 hours"
},
{
"end_time": 1298.387,
"index": 60,
"start_time": 1277.346,
"text": " This guy woke up the following day with the left side of his face was all sunburned. His ear had started swelling. His eye, he started losing the sight in his left eye. Within a week or a couple of weeks, he started losing his hair on the left side of his head."
},
{
"end_time": 1328.217,
"index": 61,
"start_time": 1298.387,
"text": " And, you know, luckily we had on contract a couple of MD PhDs really sort of as people who could get deep into medical investigations and look at medical injuries. So we deployed one of these people, you know, on this case, and he followed this guy over many, many months. But it turned out that a few months after this event had happened,"
},
{
"end_time": 1358.183,
"index": 62,
"start_time": 1328.609,
"text": " He came down with a rare form of ductal carcinoma that luckily was not metastatic, so it did not metastasize. And over a two-year period, went through a lot of health issues. But in terms of being able to document all of that, we were very, very fortunate that we had access to blood samples taken from this guy before the incident. And then there were multiple blood samples taken after the incident."
},
{
"end_time": 1388.131,
"index": 63,
"start_time": 1359.019,
"text": " So we were able to piece together a medical forensic sort of picture of what had happened before and after this incident. And we could document rises and falls of various immune system parameters within this guy. We saw that there were dramatic changes in neutrophil lymphocyte ratios over time. And this was from an OSAP"
},
{
"end_time": 1415.555,
"index": 64,
"start_time": 1388.404,
"text": " UFO investigation point of view, we think this was one of the sentinel cases because we had resources and we were able to, we had the luxury of following this guy over a year and a half to two years after the incident. And as I said, we had blood samples taken before the incident. So we were actually able to postulate about cause and effect and the sort of the dramatic increase"
},
{
"end_time": 1419.104,
"index": 65,
"start_time": 1415.555,
"text": " in adverse health symptoms that this guy had."
},
{
"end_time": 1447.329,
"index": 66,
"start_time": 1419.462,
"text": " suffered, we were able to say with reasonable confidence that he suffered pretty well all of those after the close encounter with this small blue orb. So that was the case. And we had several other cases that Bas Ossoff encountered that sort of looked at the medical injury aspect. And that was one of the things that really surprised me"
},
{
"end_time": 1466.186,
"index": 67,
"start_time": 1448.097,
"text": " During the NIDS era, we did not encounter too many of those cases. We had about 1,800 separate UFO investigations under our belt by the time the NIDS database"
},
{
"end_time": 1492.056,
"index": 68,
"start_time": 1466.476,
"text": " went on ice, which was about 2003. But we never saw in terms of boots in the ground investigations of UFO effects. We never saw the sort of level of medical injury that we saw sort of, you know, up close and personal with a few of these cases. So I guess that's one of the things that really surprised me from the OSSA series of investigations."
},
{
"end_time": 1509.206,
"index": 69,
"start_time": 1492.807,
"text": " Did that person feel any burning sensation or any sensation at all when the orb went through him? Well, he actually did feel a sort of really weird sort of uncomfortable. It wasn't painful or anything. He felt sort of"
},
{
"end_time": 1533.336,
"index": 70,
"start_time": 1509.497,
"text": " Okay."
},
{
"end_time": 1558.609,
"index": 71,
"start_time": 1533.592,
"text": " George, when we first connected, you mentioned to me that there's plenty of meat on the bone, so to speak, in the book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, which the link is in the description for those who would like to check that out. Now, what are you referring to? What specifically are you referring to that you feel like people in the media, either on podcasts, etc. haven't picked up on? And why do you think it's so important? Those pieces of information. This question also comes from Dan from that UFO podcast."
},
{
"end_time": 1583.012,
"index": 72,
"start_time": 1559.462,
"text": " Yeah, well, there are a lot of ways I could answer that. I'll give you sort of some bullet points. One is the documenting the difference between OSAP and ATIP. We're all glad that ATIP, that story hit the New York Times in December 2017, but there were multiple errors of fact in that story that they sort of conflated OSAP with ATIP. OSAP is the program that got $22 million. OSAP was"
},
{
"end_time": 1596.015,
"index": 73,
"start_time": 1583.012,
"text": " Authorized and overseen by the Defense Intelligence Agency. It was not a small operation as column said it had 50 full time employees working around the clock, and then hundreds of subcontractors it was huge, as far as we know."
},
{
"end_time": 1619.394,
"index": 74,
"start_time": 1596.305,
"text": " believe there are other UFO programs, but as far as we know, it was the largest such endeavor ever funded by the U.S. government. Bigger than Project Blue Book, bigger than ATIP by many magnitudes, and I don't think people get just how big it was. ATIP grew out of OSAP, not the other way around. There were two distinct efforts, and this was huge. Number two is the database."
},
{
"end_time": 1634.991,
"index": 75,
"start_time": 1619.48,
"text": " The database that was created by these guys is enormous. It's more than 200,000 different UFO cases. It incorporates not only project blue book and US government files, but also private files compiled by needs the files of other governments, including Brazil."
},
{
"end_time": 1650.725,
"index": 76,
"start_time": 1635.503,
"text": " Documents, reports, case files, things of that sort. It was enormous. I don't think there's anything like it anywhere else in the world. And had OSAP been allowed to continue, one of the plans was, as envisioned by Jacques Vallee, who created this database or data warehouse,"
},
{
"end_time": 1667.073,
"index": 77,
"start_time": 1650.725,
"text": " was to put AI on top of it as a way to filter and co-relate different cases to look for patterns. If that had been allowed to continue, if OSAP had been allowed to continue, we'd be way further down the road in understanding what this phenomena is."
},
{
"end_time": 1685.282,
"index": 78,
"start_time": 1667.073,
"text": " As it is, we don't understand it at all. We don't know where it's from, why it's here, what its interest is in us. We don't know the answers to any of those big questions, but it is possible. They could have been achieved if it had been allowed to continue. Also, the specific cases. Tic Tac is probably the most famous UFO case in the world."
},
{
"end_time": 1714.565,
"index": 79,
"start_time": 1685.606,
"text": " That was an ASAP project. They launched that investigation. And although we've seen bits and pieces of what ASAP was able to determine about the Tic-Tac, the bulk of that information, the analysis that was done with a specific kind of software, has never been made public. Column could probably address that a lot better than I can, but let me finish this list. And then there are individual cases, things that happened at Skinwalker Ranch, crypto creatures, the different kinds of craft that were investigated, seen and investigated by ASAP."
},
{
"end_time": 1736.357,
"index": 80,
"start_time": 1714.565,
"text": " at the ranch and then other places around the country. There's a case in Georgia that was investigated that is a mind-boggling. There's a men in black type instance that happened in Kentucky that Colum can elaborate on. There's a Southern California incident in Matura County where an entire family had these experiences over a number of days, saw alien beings, got them on camera"
},
{
"end_time": 1766.305,
"index": 81,
"start_time": 1736.596,
"text": " in fact, and it had a kind of a trick ending. But those kind of cases, I don't think they have registered with the general public or the UFO public at all. Colin, do you want to add to that? Yeah, I think exactly what George put out is the case. And I guess we can be sort of blamed in some way because we sort of set out to write a fairly"
},
{
"end_time": 1790.333,
"index": 82,
"start_time": 1766.578,
"text": " a fairly dense book in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon and we decided from the get-go that we could have added a hundred pages of filler if we had so chosen but we decided against that and so I think the book is pretty dense. There's not a lot of fluff in there in terms of sort of"
},
{
"end_time": 1806.596,
"index": 83,
"start_time": 1790.333,
"text": " going beyond what the facts were. So I think a lot of people because of that, and I don't blame them personally, but a lot of people have missed some of the things that are in the book."
},
{
"end_time": 1827.637,
"index": 84,
"start_time": 1806.596,
"text": " I think it does probably demand more than one reading. And, you know, a lot of people I've noticed on social media and etc. have focused and sort of said that the OSAP program was only focused on Skinwalker Ranch and it was only focused on exploring ghosts and what have we."
},
{
"end_time": 1858.029,
"index": 85,
"start_time": 1828.609,
"text": " But the fact is, you know, we submitted 104 separate reports to the Defense Intelligence Agency as separate deliverables during the OSAP program, and only a minority of those reports were focused on Skinwalker Ranch. The remainder of the reports focused on, you know, we did a pretty extensive engineering analysis of the Tic Tac incident, and we compiled a report"
},
{
"end_time": 1887.363,
"index": 86,
"start_time": 1858.422,
"text": " based on ANSYS multi-physics analysis of the TIC-TAC case, computational fluid dynamics analysis. That was a 140 plus page report that was submitted to the Defense Intelligence Agency that was completely separate from the report that Axelrod submitted on his investigation and his investigation of the TIC-TAC effect. So we also had a lot of"
},
{
"end_time": 1911.937,
"index": 87,
"start_time": 1887.363,
"text": " investigations of things like the Russian UFO papers that George Knapp brought back from Russia, that was completely independent of Skinwalker Ranch, and we employed three separate Russian translators. We got a lot of the documentation, we got all of the documentation translated"
},
{
"end_time": 1940.845,
"index": 88,
"start_time": 1911.937,
"text": " We had analysts take a look at it and it was a mind-boggling array of an organizational chart in Russia's Soviet Union in the early 1990s, which showed that the Soviet Union had this massive program that was focused on gathering UFO data nationwide at a national level. Government departments were involved."
},
{
"end_time": 1968.541,
"index": 89,
"start_time": 1941.067,
"text": " as well as university departments involved. There was also this military unit called 73790 that was involved and it seemed to be the sort of the linchpin of the entire investigation and you know there being whispers about unit 73790 as being sort of fundamental to the Soviet Union and later the Russian focus on the UAP agenda"
},
{
"end_time": 1985.06,
"index": 90,
"start_time": 1968.78,
"text": " But you know, Senator Reid, when he was instrumental in forming this program, one of the really sort of alarming things in his mind was the prospect that another country would be gaining traction on the United States"
},
{
"end_time": 2001.783,
"index": 91,
"start_time": 1985.06,
"text": " And he had in mind Russia and China, but other countries also, that they were gaining a technological edge because they were actually taking the UFO topic a lot more seriously in these countries than they were in the United States."
},
{
"end_time": 2027.892,
"index": 92,
"start_time": 2001.971,
"text": " You know, we have publicly, we know we had Project Sign, we had Project Grudge, we had Project Blue Book, and then sort of laterally, we had this very large OSAP program, which unfortunately was prematurely truncated after two years, just as it was really sort of getting going. And then we had this very small effort in the Pentagon called AATIP. You know, so in terms of"
},
{
"end_time": 2057.927,
"index": 93,
"start_time": 2028.404,
"text": " the publicly available knowledge of how seriously the United States government was taking the UFO phenomenon. The thread three documents that OSAP translated and analyzed shows pretty unequivocally that the Soviet Union slash Russia had a much more serious and wider scope program. Okay, let's talk about the hitchhiker effect for a little while. This question comes from Arthur"
},
{
"end_time": 2068.916,
"index": 94,
"start_time": 2058.148,
"text": " It seems like the hitchhiker effect is akin to a contagion."
},
{
"end_time": 2095.111,
"index": 95,
"start_time": 2069.821,
"text": " And the way that I understand it is that it must be that it decreases with severity the more that it's spread from person to person, otherwise we'd all have it because we're connected. So firstly, does it decrease? Have you found any evidence that it decreases when it spreads from person to person? Well, I would say sort of the poster child for the hitchhiker effect in terms of our ability to study it over time."
},
{
"end_time": 2118.012,
"index": 96,
"start_time": 2095.384,
"text": " I think your listener, that's a very good question actually, because it does have a lot of implications. But the poster child for this was the Axelrod family. So Axelrod was the sort of the primary infectee on the Onskin Walker Ranch. He flew 2,000 miles back to his home"
},
{
"end_time": 2142.346,
"index": 97,
"start_time": 2118.336,
"text": " in Virginia. Within a few weeks, both his sons and his wife had experienced these dramatic effects that George has alluded to. At the same time, neighbors started reporting, this was like a few months later, neighbors started reporting eruptions of unusual effects"
},
{
"end_time": 2167.261,
"index": 98,
"start_time": 2142.585,
"text": " as school kids that the Axelrod kids knew also started reporting weird creatures outside their bedrooms. And remember, the Axelrod family, the guy in the Axelrod family had top-secret security clearances, was a very high-level Navy"
},
{
"end_time": 2192.602,
"index": 99,
"start_time": 2167.824,
"text": " person. So the family were well used to keeping secrets. They were not sort of the kind of kids that went to school and blabbed about what their, you know, their family was doing. So they kept very quiet about this whole thing. So bottom line is that there was a spread out into the neighbors and out into the school kids."
},
{
"end_time": 2210.026,
"index": 100,
"start_time": 2194.292,
"text": " The real question is how far this actually spread and we do not have a full grasp on exactly how far it spread. But I think the questioner is really correct because"
},
{
"end_time": 2232.568,
"index": 101,
"start_time": 2210.026,
"text": " We probably would have picked up additional cases if this had spread into large areas around the neighbourhood as opposed to what we actually did pick up. In other cases, we know that it spread through kids and in some cases co-workers."
},
{
"end_time": 2252.21,
"index": 102,
"start_time": 2232.875,
"text": " Also, we're subject to this, but we do not have, I would say the N is too small. And again, this comes back to the fact that the OSAP program was prematurely truncated. And, you know, the original plan was to have a five-year program,"
},
{
"end_time": 2275.93,
"index": 103,
"start_time": 2252.21,
"text": " We believe if OSAP had been allowed to continue for the full five years with, you know, 50 plus full-time employees, we would have made a lot of inroads into answering the kind of questions about how far the hitchhiker effect extends. You know, because one of my backgrounds is in virology."
},
{
"end_time": 2296.8,
"index": 104,
"start_time": 2276.578,
"text": " and sort of it's pretty obvious from the coronavirus update. Everybody is familiar with the R0 concept and the ability of a virus to infect new hosts. So the epidemiological analysis of the Hitchhiker effect"
},
{
"end_time": 2326.817,
"index": 105,
"start_time": 2297.073,
"text": " is crying out to be done if there was a follow-up program for OSAP that could document additional cases of the hitchhiker effect. Right now, we have probably between two and three dozen cases of the hitchhiker effect over the last 20 to 25 years. But we need an awful lot more than that in terms of documenting the extent of this effect."
},
{
"end_time": 2355.64,
"index": 106,
"start_time": 2327.278,
"text": " But, you know, the tools of epidemiological analysis and modeling are sort of their widespread. Every other lab that studies coronavirus has, you know, epidemiological modeling, you know, resources at their disposal. So this would be a very easy project to extend. All we need is additional cases. George, do you have any comments on that?"
},
{
"end_time": 2378.2,
"index": 107,
"start_time": 2357.295,
"text": " No, I just I agree that it was a great question. I haven't really considered it. I know that for us, my wife and I, we don't think it to spread any further than that. Of course, we we have had no reports from people that we know. We don't have children. And we last couple of years, we've lived like hermit. So I guess that could explain part of it. But that's a great question is how far it can spread. We don't know the answer to it."
},
{
"end_time": 2399.428,
"index": 108,
"start_time": 2379.65,
"text": " see what I'm wondering is what are some of the other factors so it seems proximity spatial proximity is a factor maybe temporal in oh sorry maybe temporal length so how long am I spending with someone what are some of the other factors well you know what one of the um one of the sort of questions that I've heard asked is"
},
{
"end_time": 2417.073,
"index": 109,
"start_time": 2399.804,
"text": " You know, this could be just a series of fantasies that happen in these people's minds, etc. But, you know, there are indications that, for example, in the Axelrod family, that this creature that the wife saw independently from the"
},
{
"end_time": 2443.865,
"index": 110,
"start_time": 2417.073,
"text": " two kids in their home left physical tracks. So for example, you know, there were claw marks on the tree. When the Axelrod family went out to investigate after the second incident with the kids, they found all these really obvious claw marks on the tree right on the exact tree that the wife had seen this creature leaning against."
},
{
"end_time": 2472.329,
"index": 111,
"start_time": 2444.155,
"text": " That's number one. They also saw this creature throwing up a lot of leaves in the backyard as it was running. One of the Axelrod kids got besieged by orbs one night in 2011 and woke up with physical marks on his body or a lot of red welts on his body. It looked like, you know, frankly, it looked like he had been beaten up after a night"
},
{
"end_time": 2493.439,
"index": 112,
"start_time": 2472.329,
"text": " um in which there was a lot of this quote unquote parallel paranormal activity in his house and in his bedroom but he had physical marks on his body um and they they actually brought him to the er just to check him out and and make sure that he was at home from school the following day um he had like intense"
},
{
"end_time": 2515.674,
"index": 113,
"start_time": 2493.439,
"text": " So this is not only a sort of a mind phenomenon, it does have physical effects on the environment. So it could be both, but I wanted to emphasize that there are physical effects in the environment as well."
},
{
"end_time": 2537.176,
"index": 114,
"start_time": 2516.493,
"text": " And just to add to just a reminder, the health consequences for people who come into contact with these phenomena, not just at the ranch. I mean, you can look at the highly publicized cases where Navy pilots have encountered UFOs without being too specific or giving away personal information. You can bet that there's a chance that some of those"
},
{
"end_time": 2553.899,
"index": 115,
"start_time": 2537.841,
"text": " have had these experiences as well. When they go home, it's not just poltergeist type activity. There are severe health consequences. There are diseases. Perhaps your audience, Kurt, will remember recent comments by Dr. Gary Nolan, where he admits he was contacted by CIA"
},
{
"end_time": 2582.517,
"index": 116,
"start_time": 2553.899,
"text": " to look into some of these long-term health consequences for people who encounter UFOs. Nothing to do with Skinwalker Ranch, but people who get too close for too long to UFOs have severe medical and health consequences that last for a long time. We need to understand that. We need to understand how that works. It's not just weird stuff that they see in their rooms at night. It's diseases and health consequences that put their lives in danger. Kit Green wrote a paper about it for"
},
{
"end_time": 2608.456,
"index": 117,
"start_time": 2582.858,
"text": " OSAP for BAS. It's one of the 38 DERDS, the reports that were funded by BAS to establish a sort of a baseline for different aspects of what OSAP was going to study. They contacted these different professionals, professors, PhDs to look into specific topics that was related to their own level of expertise, hypersonics, for example."
},
{
"end_time": 2633.746,
"index": 118,
"start_time": 2608.456,
"text": " Most of the people who wrote those papers didn't know they're writing it as part of a UFO study funded by DIA, but they wrote it anyway, projecting what our state-of-the-art knowledge of in a particular specialty is, projecting it out over 40 or 50 years. One of those papers, one of those 38 dirts written by Dr. Kit Green, neuroscientist, was looking at the medical effects. That worked"
},
{
"end_time": 2658.012,
"index": 119,
"start_time": 2634.735,
"text": " I should also let you know that the audience for this is so variegated. It runs the gamut from people who are extremely familiar with the UFO space to people who are more interested in the bread and butter of this channel, theoretical physics, math consciousness."
},
{
"end_time": 2688.097,
"index": 120,
"start_time": 2658.575,
"text": " Often there are these acronyms and they may be unfamiliar to many people. So please, if you have an acronym, just a one sentence explanation, like what is ASAP, DIA, et cetera, when they come up. I know it's tedious, but there's many questions about that. No, that's great. That's a good idea because we get, it does get confusing for people. DIA is Defense Intelligence Agency. It's the Pentagon's version of the CIA. ASAP is the Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program. That was the acronym given to the BASS study."
},
{
"end_time": 2718.387,
"index": 121,
"start_time": 2688.473,
"text": " I'll get to Bass in a second, by the DIA. Bass is the Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Space Systems. It's an offshoot of Bigelow Aerospace. It was the contractor that got the contract from DIA for OSAP, if you've got all those acronyms straight. And then ATIP, which is the Advanced Aerospace Weapon, no, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, is sort of the successor to OSAP. It grew up out of the ruins of OSAP, so to speak. That's the program that was directed by Lou Elizondo."
},
{
"end_time": 2742.159,
"index": 122,
"start_time": 2719.923,
"text": " Okay, calm your calm. Do you look like you're chomping at the bit? No, no, I was actually removing something that came up on the screen. All right. Okay, so this question comes from KF. And by the way, if there's someone in the audience who wants to work on a legend or a compendium about these acronyms so that it can be"
},
{
"end_time": 2771.442,
"index": 123,
"start_time": 2742.773,
"text": " so that someone can easily reference them, then please contact me. Okay, so KF has a question, a very serious question. Kurt, have they considered testing the hitchhiker syndrome with people who are blind or have been blind from birth? And are there different outcomes to this? That's a very interesting question. It's actually extremely mean to test it on someone. But yeah, you understand the spirit of the question. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you would have to sort of sign a lot of waivers"
},
{
"end_time": 2797.534,
"index": 124,
"start_time": 2771.954,
"text": " and you would have a lot of examination from the HIPAA, that's another acronym, but health insurance portability act, whatever it is act, in other words medical confidentiality. You would also have to make sure that you had institutional review board"
},
{
"end_time": 2823.643,
"index": 125,
"start_time": 2798.336,
"text": " check that box too before you got into that kind of research because this is human-based research which is extremely tightly controlled by the National Institutes of Health. So once you checked all those boxes and provided you know all of the releases had been signed, it is theoretically possible to have people who are blind you know"
},
{
"end_time": 2854.343,
"index": 126,
"start_time": 2824.991,
"text": " All the way across the spectrum there's a whole series of studies that were conducted by a psychiatrist called Kenneth Ring and he studied actually these anomalous experiences in blind people and found that the anomalous experiences included consciousness related experiences like near-death experiences"
},
{
"end_time": 2884.531,
"index": 127,
"start_time": 2854.718,
"text": " and found that the blind individuals were absolutely equally capable of seeing near-death experiences as they were as people with normal sight. Now, that's quite a leap between what we're discussing and near-death experiences, but I'm saying that there is precedent for that kind of an analysis, but it does go back to the question of how big is the end?"
},
{
"end_time": 2903.66,
"index": 128,
"start_time": 2884.991,
"text": " and the N is pretty small with the data that we have in hand. Really what we want to see, I think, George and I and Jim Lakatsky is another program that is focused in the same way that utilizes the OSAP template"
},
{
"end_time": 2919.411,
"index": 129,
"start_time": 2903.729,
"text": " to study the UFO problem and not just confined it to small sort of rifle shot type studies that focus only on military pilots. Once you start looking at effects"
},
{
"end_time": 2949.633,
"index": 130,
"start_time": 2919.787,
"text": " of these UFO encounters on people, then you start getting into things like the hitchhiker effect. And we think that there's enough rumor and innuendo regarding some of the military pilots that have encountered these UFOs to warrant studies that are long-term on human effects as well, including psychological effects, but also medical effects, and especially over long-term."
},
{
"end_time": 2973.285,
"index": 131,
"start_time": 2950.06,
"text": " The old days of UFO investigations occurring on people's own time during the weekends, which is sort of the classic model of UFO studies, the sort of weekend warrior model, that really does not apply in this case. You've got to have the resources to be able to study, hear that sound,"
},
{
"end_time": 3000.299,
"index": 132,
"start_time": 2974.172,
"text": " That's the sweet sound of success with Shopify. Shopify is the all-encompassing commerce platform that's with you from the first flicker of an idea to the moment you realize you're running a global enterprise. Whether it's handcrafted jewelry or high-tech gadgets, Shopify supports you at every point of sale, both online and in person. They streamline the process with the internet's best converting checkout, making it 36% more effective than other leading platforms."
},
{
"end_time": 3026.357,
"index": 133,
"start_time": 3000.299,
"text": " There's also something called Shopify Magic, your AI-powered assistant that's like an all-star team member working tirelessly behind the scenes. What I find fascinating about Shopify is how it scales with your ambition. No matter how big you want to grow, Shopify gives you everything you need to take control and take your business to the next level. Join the ranks of businesses in 175 countries that have made Shopify the backbone."
},
{
"end_time": 3049.753,
"index": 134,
"start_time": 3026.357,
"text": " of their commerce. Shopify, by the way, powers 10% of all e-commerce in the United States, including huge names like Allbirds, Rothy's, and Brooklyn. If you ever need help, their award-winning support is like having a mentor that's just a click away. Now, are you ready to start your own success story? Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com"
},
{
"end_time": 3064.087,
"index": 135,
"start_time": 3049.753,
"text": " These people long-term"
},
{
"end_time": 3079.804,
"index": 136,
"start_time": 3064.377,
"text": " I'm talking months or years in some cases in order to fully delineate these kinds of effects. I mean, if you go out on a weekend and you interview somebody for three or four hours, you record that interview and you go home, the chances are you will pick up"
},
{
"end_time": 3109.326,
"index": 137,
"start_time": 3079.804,
"text": " only a very small percent of that person's UFO experience. You'll pick up data on UFO parameters, performance parameters, how close it was, how fast it did right angle turns, what kind of lights it might have had, and you can try to sort of marry that to theoretical physics concepts. But really what you need to do is to do that, but also to look at the long-term effects"
},
{
"end_time": 3131.544,
"index": 138,
"start_time": 3109.633,
"text": " Speaking of physics, this question comes from Mossy Moose. During the ASAP program and potentially continuing into the present day, what sorts of energy signatures pass through the experiencers"
},
{
"end_time": 3161.237,
"index": 139,
"start_time": 3131.732,
"text": " of UAPs and the phenomenon in close proximity. And is it related to neutrinos? Does this type of detectable and measurable energy signature play a role in the hitchhiker effect? That's a pretty good question too. I'm not a scientist. I don't pretend to be a scientist. Colum, that maybe is a better question for him. And I don't know if they ever got, were able to get that specific. So, well, the, the only, the only, I guess,"
},
{
"end_time": 3177.193,
"index": 140,
"start_time": 3161.834,
"text": " medical effects that we were able to document involved, we think, some form of potentially non-ionizing radiation."
},
{
"end_time": 3197.961,
"index": 141,
"start_time": 3177.551,
"text": " There was another case that George briefly mentioned, and this pertains to what I'm talking about. In Georgia, this guy was alerted by his dog barking outside, and this is a case that we investigated pretty over a long period of time."
},
{
"end_time": 3218.148,
"index": 142,
"start_time": 3198.404,
"text": " But he went outside his his his young boy and a couple of neighbors were in a tent in their backyard. They were kind of in a sleepover. He went out to check on them and check on the dog and right over his property or hovering silently was this massive black triangle, this large black triangle."
},
{
"end_time": 3235.759,
"index": 143,
"start_time": 3218.422,
"text": " Now, it was nighttime, so he couldn't get a good fix, but he figured it was very, very low. He said it was massive, the size of a football field. So it was right over his property. So we tried taking cell phone photos."
},
{
"end_time": 3264.565,
"index": 144,
"start_time": 3235.759,
"text": " And, you know, all that came out was just blackness because he could see it silhouetted against the sky, but the resolution of his iPhone camera was insufficient to pick it up. So we went back inside and pulled out. He had a very powerful flashlight. So we went back outside. This thing was still hovering above him. So we shone the flashlight up at it to see if he could see any features on the underside of this craft."
},
{
"end_time": 3286.476,
"index": 145,
"start_time": 3265.009,
"text": " and almost immediately this large intense blue ray came from the front side of the triangle and shot right on him and he immediately felt you know a lot of heat and a lot he was kind of blinded and felt a lot of heat he turned around and crouched away from this"
},
{
"end_time": 3315.674,
"index": 146,
"start_time": 3286.783,
"text": " But at that stage, he felt a lot of heat on his neck and his back. So he got, you know, he ran inside because he, you know, he felt he felt threatened. But this blue light was probably a foot in diameter. And it seemed to be instantaneous reaction to him shining the flashlight at the underside of this object. So he looked at it from the window and it took off at enormous speeds."
},
{
"end_time": 3329.787,
"index": 147,
"start_time": 3315.674,
"text": " heading up in the sky and was gone very, very quickly. So he went to bed and sort of woke up with a very strong metallic taste in his mouth"
},
{
"end_time": 3353.114,
"index": 148,
"start_time": 3329.991,
"text": " He had a lot of sunburn on the back of his neck. He had a headache. He did not feel well and sort of. So investigations start. We were contacted as part of the BAS MUFON. MUFON is the acronym for Mutual UFO Network. Yeah. So"
},
{
"end_time": 3379.77,
"index": 149,
"start_time": 3353.609,
"text": " We were contacted via MUFON about this case. So we sent investigators out. We photographed this guy. He started losing his hair on the back of his head. And we had one of our physician scientists go out and visit him. And he organized a set of medical visits to the local clinic that documented him. Over time, he had a lot of health effects."
},
{
"end_time": 3410.009,
"index": 150,
"start_time": 3380.077,
"text": " He had intense nausea over this whole case. And so, you know, there was indirect evidence, not direct evidence, but from the constellation of medical symptoms, including sort of strong metallic taste in his mouth, losing hair, intense sunburn on his skin, and some other features. One of the hypotheses that we came up with for this case and for other cases was"
},
{
"end_time": 3435.367,
"index": 151,
"start_time": 3410.282,
"text": " non-ionizing radiation. But we were never able to get more specific than that. It was some form of electromagnetic radiation and we were not able to pinpoint the intensity or we were not able to pinpoint exact wavelength. But there was a hypothesis put forward that needs to be validated over time in future cases"
},
{
"end_time": 3458.302,
"index": 152,
"start_time": 3435.572,
"text": " non-ionizing radiation was used on this guy. There was a whole plethora of other strange effects that this guy went through. He had all these bizarre electronic interference phenomena that were erupted in his home. He had, as I said, a lot of medical effects"
},
{
"end_time": 3481.544,
"index": 153,
"start_time": 3458.592,
"text": " lot of these tumors started growing in his body. Luckily they turned out to be benign and he was diagnosed with Castleman's disease and eventually after a couple or a few years he got better and you know pulled out of it but you know he was besieged by low-flying black helicopters"
},
{
"end_time": 3507.073,
"index": 154,
"start_time": 3481.544,
"text": " You know, at one stage, which is another sort of feature that that is associated with the UFO phenomenon. But why is it featured associated with the UFO phenomenon? We don't have the answer to that. But, you know, one of the things that the lessons learned from ASAP is that we think the template is robust. The template should be repeated."
},
{
"end_time": 3525.811,
"index": 155,
"start_time": 3507.551,
"text": " And it should be extended beyond the two year program. So, you know, the bottom line for the future, we think for UFO studies is to do a five plus year study with the kinds of resources that also had and the kinds of"
},
{
"end_time": 3547.637,
"index": 156,
"start_time": 3526.169,
"text": " personnel that were devoted exclusively to investigating the UFO mystery because, you know, as everybody knows, as a lot of your listeners know, we've been looking at this, you know, in the public eye for 75 years. That's an awful long time to be wondering what is this phenomenon"
},
{
"end_time": 3572.125,
"index": 157,
"start_time": 3548.097,
"text": " You know, one of the things that the OSAP program was tasked to do was to delineate whether or not this phenomenon was a threat to the United States and a threat to national security. Bottom line is, you know, there are two aspects of threat analysis. One is capability and the other is intent."
},
{
"end_time": 3590.162,
"index": 158,
"start_time": 3572.551,
"text": " So part A was capability and our data warehouse and databases were full of instances where we were able to map out the capabilities of the UFO phenomenon. But in terms of intent is a really big question mark."
},
{
"end_time": 3615.077,
"index": 159,
"start_time": 3590.162,
"text": " After 75 years of looking at this UFO phenomenon, we still have no idea regarding whether or not what the intent or what the agenda of this phenomenon is. So therefore, our final report to the Defense Intelligence Agency, we did not say that the UFO phenomenon was a threat to national security. We said it was a threat to human health."
},
{
"end_time": 3642.773,
"index": 160,
"start_time": 3615.486,
"text": " And that's a very, very different, you know, parsing of that sort of concept. It's a very, very different thing to say. It's a bad thing for you, for people to be close to UFOs. But we were not able to gather enough data to determine whether or not this was a threat to national security. I'd like to add, Kurt, if there's one underlying message from our book, one lesson learned,"
},
{
"end_time": 3652.466,
"index": 161,
"start_time": 3643.183,
"text": " from the OSAP program, it's that you need to follow the evidence where it leads. The Defense Intelligence Agency crafted this program as a UFO study."
},
{
"end_time": 3676.937,
"index": 162,
"start_time": 3652.705,
"text": " was its primary focus is on UFOs, the technology. Whose is it? Is it a threat? Can we duplicate it? Can we figure it out and duplicate it? But it also had, and everyone at DIA and within Bass understood, that it also was going to follow the evidence wherever it led. Since our book came out and some of the details about OSAP and Bass, we've had a lot of criticism. Oh gosh, that was a silly program."
},
{
"end_time": 3706.561,
"index": 163,
"start_time": 3676.937,
"text": " They were ghost hunters. They were looking at Bigfoot, all these goofy, silly topics, paranormal stuff that's been discredited. Well, that was not entirely true. It was a UFO program to start, but they followed the evidence where it led, and it led into some pretty strange areas. They didn't set out and didn't want to study ghosts or poltergeists, and we don't even know if that's what they were studying, but they did study the effects that were in proximity to UFO events, followed the evidence where it led, and it led into some very uncomfortable areas."
},
{
"end_time": 3721.596,
"index": 164,
"start_time": 3706.561,
"text": " The Pentagon, of course, has been a little less than honest with the public about its interest in UFOs. But finally, as a result of the ATEP story that was in New York Times and testimony from a lot of the people that work with Column at OSAP,"
},
{
"end_time": 3741.937,
"index": 165,
"start_time": 3722.073,
"text": " behind closed doors, Congress is finally interested in the UFO aspect and more power to them. We're glad that they took the trouble to find out about the national security implications of these UFO encounters over military bases. If that is the engine that drove the interest in creating a new program, which they have done, great."
},
{
"end_time": 3767.005,
"index": 166,
"start_time": 3741.937,
"text": " But you can't just stop there. Again, the underlying message of OSAP, BAS, the book that we wrote is you have to follow the evidence where it leads. You cannot solve this mystery or these multiple mysteries by just looking at military cases, at UFOs that appear over military bases, at UFOs that are picked up on sensors or on thermal images like Tic Tac, like Gimbal. You're never going to solve the big picture"
},
{
"end_time": 3793.968,
"index": 167,
"start_time": 3767.005,
"text": " When I was speaking to Travis Walton, he was of the opinion that some of these beings are benevolent and that they would cure cancer potentially. Someone else thought this as well. I believe her name is Angelie. She believes that they're kind, bestowing, generous, helpful. It doesn't sound like you all believe that, but please comment on that."
},
{
"end_time": 3802.773,
"index": 168,
"start_time": 3795.623,
"text": " Well, we don't even know if that's one intelligence or multiple. Maybe there's more than one more than one answer. Maybe they're extraterrestrial."
},
{
"end_time": 3833.029,
"index": 169,
"start_time": 3803.319,
"text": " Maybe they're interdimensional. Maybe they're time travelers. Maybe there's something else more exotic. Crypto terrestrials, ultra terrestrials. We really don't know. And we don't know that it's just one. It could be many different ones with different kinds of agendas. Yeah, there are indications. Call them alien editorials. People who are contactees, abductees over the years, who say they've been given messages by these beings. We want you to take care of your planet. We want you to be kind to each other. Quit blowing up atomic bombs. Pay attention to the environment. You're polluting your planet."
},
{
"end_time": 3850.947,
"index": 170,
"start_time": 3833.029,
"text": " They express an interest in human development and human health and there are rare instances where they've supposedly helped humans overcome crippling diseases. But overall, you know, there are a lot of contrary indications as well. Sometimes these intelligences seem to be just completely oblivious to us."
},
{
"end_time": 3869.292,
"index": 171,
"start_time": 3850.947,
"text": " They don't care whether we see them or not. They don't seem to want to interact with us. Sometimes they lie to us. Jim Semavan of CIA, I interviewed him a couple of days ago, he says, you know, looking at the databases and then the vast overarching information about the subject is that"
},
{
"end_time": 3897.978,
"index": 172,
"start_time": 3869.906,
"text": " We don't know what they're here for or what their interest is in us. They lie to us. They trick us. They mislead us. They take on different shapes. We don't know where they're from. We don't know how long they've been here. I mean, we don't know any of the answers to the really big questions. So I am reluctant to assign a motive to any of them of these different intelligences. We don't even know how many of them there are. I would agree with that. I think the but"
},
{
"end_time": 3917.756,
"index": 173,
"start_time": 3898.899,
"text": " The vast majority of the cases that we looked at through the OSAP database seemed to indicate that people were having physiological effects and medical effects, but there were a subset of cases that do directly address your listener's question."
},
{
"end_time": 3944.428,
"index": 174,
"start_time": 3918.148,
"text": " And, and, you know, there was a sense of uplift, uh, you know, feeling, feeling that at the end of the day, that this was a positive effect on, on, you know, they, they had a life-changing experience as a result of interaction with UFOs. Um, but in general it was a positive effect. And, you know, as George mentioned, there were sort of, there are sporadic cases of, of, uh,"
},
{
"end_time": 3967.654,
"index": 175,
"start_time": 3944.667,
"text": " these where people are healed quote unquote from various ailments as a result. These are anecdotal, you know, everything to do with UFOs is anecdotal, unfortunately. But, you know, in our database, I think that the vast majority of the cases were not this benign subset, but there was a benign subset."
},
{
"end_time": 3995.947,
"index": 176,
"start_time": 3967.995,
"text": " associated with positive effects. I mean even going back to Skinwalker Ranch just after the Sherman family had sold the property to Robert Bigelow in 1996, the last thing that they saw as the husband and wife were on the property was they looked up and it was a bright sunny day and this disc, this silver disc came right down"
},
{
"end_time": 4013.712,
"index": 177,
"start_time": 3996.34,
"text": " And and Harvard, you know, it was in the sky and they felt enormous positive feelings and sort of, you know, after the nightmare that just gone through over a two year period. This was sort of the parting shot."
},
{
"end_time": 4036.152,
"index": 178,
"start_time": 4014.053,
"text": " from a silver disc, which was a classic UFO in the sky. And their overwhelming take home message from that encounter was very positive, you know, very joyful, etc, etc. We have no idea why that happened. Or was this just a random occurrence?"
},
{
"end_time": 4052.483,
"index": 179,
"start_time": 4036.51,
"text": " Think Verizon, the best 5G network is expensive? Think again. Bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal. Now what to do with your unwanted bills? Ever seen an origami version of the Miami Bull?"
},
{
"end_time": 4076.664,
"index": 180,
"start_time": 4052.961,
"text": " Speaking of books, there are plenty of questions which reference the book."
},
{
"end_time": 4105.247,
"index": 181,
"start_time": 4076.971,
"text": " In fact, this guy, Arthur, who asked a question earlier, Arthur Switowski, he's such a trooper. He just outlined page number and then a question on that page number. So on page 49, he says, in regard to Lou, Lou Elizondo's remote viewing talents has Lou or anyone else on the team of bass used their remote viewing capabilities to see into installations of that purportedly house craft slash bodies or to communicate with slash locate UAPs."
},
{
"end_time": 4133.746,
"index": 182,
"start_time": 4106.613,
"text": " and then they even wrote in bracket. This ties into page 120 on remote viewing. Well, I'm glad they have spent so much time annotating the pages because frankly, I don't know what page 120 says, but in terms of remote viewing, Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies proposed a remote viewing project to Defense Intelligence Agency."
},
{
"end_time": 4163.985,
"index": 183,
"start_time": 4134.138,
"text": " as part of the menu or proposals that we submitted in response to the request for proposals that DIA put out. DIA actually rejected that proposal. They said, we don't want to spend enormous amounts of money training remote viewers. But they did allow us to conduct a pilot program on remote viewing. And in the book, we did contract with"
},
{
"end_time": 4193.695,
"index": 184,
"start_time": 4164.189,
"text": " legendary remote viewer Joe Mike Monagle who we you know per the usual method for remote viewing we gave him only latitude and longitude coordinates and he produced a report for the Defense Intelligence Agency ultimately with Bass and in it he mapped out the property and he talked about various beings on the property"
},
{
"end_time": 4223.558,
"index": 185,
"start_time": 4194.565,
"text": " In terms of a full-fledged remote viewing exercise, we were not permitted under the contract that we were given to do a full remote viewing of the, you know, during the BAS program. So we were not permitted to do that by the Defense Intelligence Agency. George, you have anything to add to that? Yeah, I'd add this is that Colum and I wrote an earlier book called Hunt for the Skinwalker, which was"
},
{
"end_time": 4240.589,
"index": 186,
"start_time": 4223.831,
"text": " mainly focused on NIDS, which is the National Institute for Discovery Science. Pardon all the acronyms, but NIDS was an organization created by Mr. Bigelow prior to him getting a contract for the DIA to run this other program. And NIDS studied, among other things, Skinwalker Ranch in Utah,"
},
{
"end_time": 4264.565,
"index": 187,
"start_time": 4240.589,
"text": " And just as sort of an experiment, as a side note, while preparing that book, I had tasked a remote viewing group here in Nevada to take a look at the ranch without telling them what I was asking them to look at. They found some interesting things. They found evidence of military surveillance. They found some indications of underground facilities and control rooms. So they were able to pierce the veil of a sort."
},
{
"end_time": 4290.213,
"index": 188,
"start_time": 4264.565,
"text": " But of course, I was never able to physically verify what they saw in these remote viewing visions was actually physically there. Yeah, it would be a really interesting task and endeavor to try to get remote viewers to take a look at not just the ranch, but other places like Area 51 or places where we suspect recovered disks or medical metal pieces, bits and pieces from crash sites might be stashed. We haven't done it."
},
{
"end_time": 4311.118,
"index": 189,
"start_time": 4292.346,
"text": " Okay, this question comes from Dugummit. I'm late to the party, but I finally read the book. Sobering is right. Two questions. Number one, do other countries have the same after effects, specifically the archetypal beasts as North America, because it seems culturally specific? And then, well, let's tackle that one first."
},
{
"end_time": 4328.882,
"index": 190,
"start_time": 4313.387,
"text": " Well, for example, Bigfoot, if you talk about crypto creatures has been seen everywhere in the world. I think maybe Hawaii might be the only place where something like it hasn't been seen. And I could be wrong there. So a lot of the crypto type creatures that we see here, dog men, wolf men,"
},
{
"end_time": 4344.821,
"index": 191,
"start_time": 4329.07,
"text": " You know, creatures that are where creatures they've been seen all over the world in every culture. So there are a lot of similarities. I think there are specific kinds of crypto creatures that are unique to different parts of the world."
},
{
"end_time": 4368.797,
"index": 192,
"start_time": 4345.247,
"text": " I mean, it almost gets bizarre and ridiculous. There are creatures that have been seen there by the ranchers and property owners, neighbors that don't exist in nature. Colum saw one of them. Colum experienced that walking with the female intelligence officer in the middle homestead at the ranch, and they saw what people have laughingly called a dino beaver. Colum, maybe you want to tell that story, what this thing looked like?"
},
{
"end_time": 4385.93,
"index": 193,
"start_time": 4369.855,
"text": " Yeah, I was I was on the property with Robert Bigelow and with the person in the book who was a defense and intelligence analyst. Her name was Julia with and, you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 4410.725,
"index": 194,
"start_time": 4386.442,
"text": " During the day, Juliette and I had walked the property. We had done a lot of photography of the property. I had briefed Juliette on the various incidents that had happened during the National Institute for Discovery Science program on the ranch. Juliette climbed up on top of the Skinwalker Ridge, which is the northern"
},
{
"end_time": 4420.179,
"index": 195,
"start_time": 4411.374,
"text": " property or the northern part of the ranch and she took a lot of photographs. So that night at about 10 o'clock"
},
{
"end_time": 4442.841,
"index": 196,
"start_time": 4420.623,
"text": " Myself, Robert Bigelow, and Juliet went down to an area near Homestead No. 2, which is kind of the centre of the ranch, but also the location where over the last 25 years there have been literally dozens of anomalies reported and reported and witnessed."
},
{
"end_time": 4456.186,
"index": 197,
"start_time": 4442.841,
"text": " What we did was we had chairs with us. We sat out in the middle of a pasture near Homestead 2, about probably, I don't know, 50 feet away from Homestead 2."
},
{
"end_time": 4484.991,
"index": 198,
"start_time": 4457.193,
"text": " And the way the chairs were oriented where we were back to back to back. So each one of us was facing in a 60 degree angle away from each other. So we could essentially cover the entire 360 degrees. So we noticed, myself and Robert Bigelow noticed that Juliette was really getting, you know, she was getting pretty jumpy because, you know, it was pretty, it was very, very dark."
},
{
"end_time": 4513.422,
"index": 199,
"start_time": 4485.316,
"text": " It was, you know, you could see the faint light of homesteads way in the distance and we were sitting out sort of sitting ducks in her mind and I guess in our minds too, sitting ducks for anything that wanted to sort of pass by. So she was getting pretty nervous. So Robert Bigelow sort of got up and walked down. He was strolling down about a hundred yards south. So I got up to"
},
{
"end_time": 4535.606,
"index": 200,
"start_time": 4513.865,
"text": " to head over to the opposite direction in the direction of the Homestead 2 building which is an abandoned homestead about 100 years old that's kind of like in ruins. So about 30 feet in front of me I see this what looks like a maybe somewhere between 100 to 150 pound"
},
{
"end_time": 4565.589,
"index": 201,
"start_time": 4535.93,
"text": " creature that's motoring along the tree line in front of me. It's about 30 feet away. I looked over at Juliette Witt and she's looking at it too. And this thing looked like it had like blocks on the spine, emanating from the spine. I guess the nearest equivalent I can think of in terms of what I was looking at is a very, very small version of a Stegosaurus."
},
{
"end_time": 4572.756,
"index": 202,
"start_time": 4566.049,
"text": " But I could see also, and this was very, very dim light. This creature was motoring north."
},
{
"end_time": 4602.807,
"index": 203,
"start_time": 4572.978,
"text": " And it was absolutely silent. It had what looked like a flat tail, low to the ground. And it was a pretty bulky creature. I mean, it was small, but it was pretty bulky. And my estimate, you know, in hindsight is probably somewhere between 100 and 150 pounds. But what the most bizarre aspect of this whole thing was that it was like a cone of silence had descended on the, you know, on this whole area. And, you know, even the crickets"
},
{
"end_time": 4613.677,
"index": 204,
"start_time": 4603.217,
"text": " This kind of ambient noise out on Skinwalker Ranch when you're sitting there for hours, all of that had stopped. There was no noise whatsoever."
},
{
"end_time": 4639.07,
"index": 205,
"start_time": 4614.07,
"text": " And this thing was motoring north. It should have been rustling and leaves and grass as it went by. It was maybe, I'm guessing about 30, maybe 40 feet away from me. It was probably 50 feet away from Juliet. So we watched this thing. It made a beeline for the corner of the abandoned Homestead 2 and went behind it. And it was like, you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 4646.92,
"index": 206,
"start_time": 4639.394,
"text": " Probably a few seconds later, myself and Juliet sort of went right over to try to follow this thing to get a better view of it."
},
{
"end_time": 4670.401,
"index": 207,
"start_time": 4647.21,
"text": " and we couldn't see any side of it. We went around the corner of the building, turned right, and there's a sort of a gap between the corner of the building and a set of trees that eventually ends up on the track that goes east-west on Skinwalker Ranch. We could not see any sign of this creature, but you know it's kind of like"
},
{
"end_time": 4693.848,
"index": 208,
"start_time": 4670.896,
"text": " the moment in time was pretty short you know maybe I don't know probably less than 30 seconds when we were looking at this there was absolute silence and it was like a sort of a version of shock when you're seeing something like this and then by the time it got behind the building I mean if we had"
},
{
"end_time": 4723.78,
"index": 209,
"start_time": 4694.428,
"text": " had the ultimate sort of planning move into high gear instead of being involved with this Oz effect. We could have got the night vision binoculars out. We searched for the creature with night vision binoculars, but we couldn't find anything. But this is an example of the kind of thing that happens on Skinwalker Ranch. And yes, it is very easy to sit on a couch or sit on an armchair and say,"
},
{
"end_time": 4748.012,
"index": 210,
"start_time": 4723.899,
"text": " Why the hell didn't you guys take your night vision binoculars out? But you had to be there. There are plenty of instances on Skinwalker Ranch when we have captured photographs, we have captured videos of fast moving orbs and this kind of thing. We have gobs of photographs of these orb-like structures on Skinwalker Ranch."
},
{
"end_time": 4776.766,
"index": 211,
"start_time": 4748.012,
"text": " But that time, looking at this creature, you know, if I had to do it all over again, I would have had the night vision binoculars a lot more sort of prepared in my grasp. For people who want to see some of those images that you recorded or videos, where did they go? They're all in the NIDS repository, which has never been released. Is there a plan to release it?"
},
{
"end_time": 4805.111,
"index": 212,
"start_time": 4777.705,
"text": " I don't own that data set. That would have to be the owner of the data set and that would be Robert Bigelow and NIDS. I mean NIDS was a private company and it was accumulating privately held data for analysis. Now all of the data that NIDS acquired over time is still on the NIDS website"
},
{
"end_time": 4829.582,
"index": 213,
"start_time": 4805.435,
"text": " There is a cached version of the NIDS website. We wrote gobs and gobs of papers that we published on the NIDS website. All you need to do is Google National Institute for Discovery Science Wikipedia and you will find a full cached version of the NIDS website. There are dozens and dozens of papers on the NIDS website that the NIDS scientists"
},
{
"end_time": 4851.783,
"index": 214,
"start_time": 4829.804,
"text": " actually published on that website. So in terms of our published data, it's all available, you know, just happens photographs of orbs are not available, but there is a very large data set of published literature involving everything from investigations of calculations"
},
{
"end_time": 4876.852,
"index": 215,
"start_time": 4851.783,
"text": " to investigations of UFO phenomena, and they're all written up in the scientific vernacular on the NIDS website. And actually, I looked at this website yesterday, so it is actually available as we speak. So if people want to look at the raw data as published in these NIDS studies, they're all available in this cached website."
},
{
"end_time": 4905.384,
"index": 216,
"start_time": 4877.756,
"text": " I should point out the ASAP information and database is mostly not public either. We've given in our book, we've given a glimpse of what was available. As Colin mentioned earlier, BAS produced 104 reports that were submitted to DIA, many of them with photographs and charts and all kinds of evidence. That information has not been made public. We hope that someday it will be, you know, in writing the book,"
},
{
"end_time": 4933.473,
"index": 217,
"start_time": 4905.776,
"text": " We told as much of that story as we were allowed to tell. It took 14 months for the Pentagon to sign off on our manuscript. They went through this adopter process. We did have to make some changes that they mandated, and specifically, especially about names of active duty personnel. We told as much of that story as we could, but there's a gigantic amount of information that was sent to DIA that I know a lot of FOIA requests have been filed."
},
{
"end_time": 4950.367,
"index": 218,
"start_time": 4933.985,
"text": " This question comes from Jackson Vega."
},
{
"end_time": 4979.189,
"index": 219,
"start_time": 4950.589,
"text": " I think it's worth a try. I had a chance to interview some guys who are sort of like the prophet Yahweh. This guy who 20 years ago said he could call in UFOs. And he'd go out and meditate and try to draw things in. And sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. There's a group of fellows that I know who have tried this, picked up the mantle, and had some amazing experiences that they've videotaped."
},
{
"end_time": 5002.773,
"index": 220,
"start_time": 4979.753,
"text": " summoners. I think they call it summoning. So it does happen. It can happen. Stephen Greer, who did some really great early work in getting UFO whistleblowers to come forward, getting their testimony out to national media organizations, is a champion of the CE5. He charges a lot of money for people to go out into the desert with him and call in flying saucers."
},
{
"end_time": 5028.763,
"index": 221,
"start_time": 5003.046,
"text": " A lot of people are put off by how expensive it gets and where the money goes, especially since it looks like people can do this on their own without paying Stephen Greer to do it. I don't know if it really works, but what the heck? I say it's worth giving it a try. Colm, do you have any thoughts on it? Yeah, I would agree. I think it's worth attempting it. I know that it's been attempted in multiple places."
},
{
"end_time": 5057.637,
"index": 222,
"start_time": 5029.138,
"text": " There's been large programs in South America associated with summoning UFOs. And from the reports that I've seen, mostly not scientific reports, but books and magazine articles, that there does seem to be a level of success. But I would inject a note of caution into this is be careful what you actually summon."
},
{
"end_time": 5086.561,
"index": 223,
"start_time": 5057.978,
"text": " It could be that these objects come in all shapes and sizes. And like we've said for the last hour or so, we don't know what the agenda of these objects are. I mean, it could be some have a benign agenda and it could be that some have not a benign agenda. So I would inject a note of caution. I personally would not do that because I have too much respect"
},
{
"end_time": 5114.821,
"index": 224,
"start_time": 5086.852,
"text": " I feel exactly the same. I've been told, Kurt, look into it and perform it. I'm not going to, at least not anytime soon, because it's playing with fire. It's worse than playing with fire. When I was speaking to Tom DeLong, he expressed similar sentiments saying that you don't know what you're dealing with and it's"
},
{
"end_time": 5127.739,
"index": 225,
"start_time": 5115.896,
"text": " it could be extremely, extremely dangerous. So I'm of that same opinion. Yeah, I mean, I, I kind of liken it to I mean, if you summon anything without"
},
{
"end_time": 5151.425,
"index": 226,
"start_time": 5128.148,
"text": " without careful sort of training and all of that, you really are opening yourself up. I would say the same goes for ayahuasca tourism, for example, and this whole idea of sort of going to somebody's place that you don't know who they are and taking a bunch of ayahuasca or DMT or any of the hallucinogenics"
},
{
"end_time": 5168.66,
"index": 227,
"start_time": 5151.425,
"text": " Again, be careful what you wish for. I mean, the originator of this whole DMT phenomenon, Rick Strassman, who was actually, you know, he was fundamental in sort of initiating the focus on DMT in the Western world."
},
{
"end_time": 5197.125,
"index": 228,
"start_time": 5168.933,
"text": " And he did an NIH sponsored study of injecting a whole bunch of volunteers under medical supervision in New Mexico. And an enormous number of these young volunteers reported encountering these creatures and unusual people in these other realms."
},
{
"end_time": 5218.712,
"index": 229,
"start_time": 5197.688,
"text": " But Rick Strassman later on decided to back away from that research because he found that some of these young people were having long-term psychological effects. And again, under controlled conditions, it's all very well to do this. But what are the long-term effects?"
},
{
"end_time": 5247.244,
"index": 230,
"start_time": 5218.712,
"text": " What are these entities that people are actually meeting and conversing with? I mean, do you really get the secrets of the universe or do you get something that you may not have bargained for and that you find a lot of difficulty in getting rid of? And, you know, I mean, the list goes on and on. Teenagers playing Ouija boards and what have we. You've got to have a certain amount of caution when you're approaching these kinds of phenomena."
},
{
"end_time": 5267.159,
"index": 231,
"start_time": 5247.244,
"text": " This question comes from Richard Brewster. I just read Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. Now, with all this research being unable to come to a conclusion as to the origins or intents of the phenomenon,"
},
{
"end_time": 5283.831,
"index": 232,
"start_time": 5268.302,
"text": " Does something lead you to speculate in one extraterrestrial origin, direction versus the phenomenon being of Earth origin? I'll just say I've been, as an investigative reporter, I've been chasing this since the late 80s, I think the first"
},
{
"end_time": 5308.524,
"index": 233,
"start_time": 5283.831,
"text": " UFO-related interview I did was 1987, and I jumped into it with both feet starting in 1989. And the dominant paradigm at that time was these are ETs. Within UFO world, within the community of UFO researchers, they generally thought these are extraterrestrials or visitors from other planets who've been coming here for a long time. If you look back at the history of humanity, a recorded history,"
},
{
"end_time": 5328.916,
"index": 234,
"start_time": 5308.524,
"text": " These things have been reported in every culture on every continent throughout human history in one form or another. They've been with us a long time, maybe been here longer than us, but we still don't really know what they are. That ET paradigm, which is where I started, it changed over time, you know, reading Dr. Jacques Ballet's books."
},
{
"end_time": 5349.053,
"index": 235,
"start_time": 5329.462,
"text": " I think the first interview I had with him in 1990, he said, look, I'll tell you, I'm going to be really disappointed if it turns out that the ultimate answer to the UFO mystery is that it's merely visitors from other planets, because he said the technology that we've seen has been demonstrated and documented over the years is they control space time."
},
{
"end_time": 5366.681,
"index": 236,
"start_time": 5349.053,
"text": " Somehow they can manipulate gravity and time and space in ways that we don't understand. So they could be extraterrestrial and interdimensional and time travelers all at once. They could be something even more exotic that we don't understand. I think the ET explanation is one that is possible."
},
{
"end_time": 5394.735,
"index": 237,
"start_time": 5367.108,
"text": " But we really don't know. I mean, some of these beings and their messages to contact these, they say they're from other planets. But again, I would emphasize you can't really trust them because they lied to us over the years. So ET is one possibility, but it's only one. And my suspicion is it's much more exotic and more complicated than that, that whatever it is has been here with us forever, maybe longer than us, that it lives here. It's not from some other place that it lives here."
},
{
"end_time": 5424.48,
"index": 238,
"start_time": 5395.111,
"text": " And that's just a guess. We really don't know. And I'm not going to be the person to figure it out. Somebody's going to win a Nobel Prize someday figuring this out. But it's obviously not going to be me. Colin? Well, I think, you know, I think it's really a shame that for 75 years, a lot of really smart people have looked at this phenomenon. And, you know, there have been stops and starts and, and"
},
{
"end_time": 5447.346,
"index": 239,
"start_time": 5424.889,
"text": " small programs, large programs, but you know ultimately this requires sort of a level of funding from the National Science Foundation, from the National Institutes of Health. I mean the National Institutes of Health annual budget is 44 billion dollars or 43 billion dollars in thereabouts."
},
{
"end_time": 5464.326,
"index": 240,
"start_time": 5447.705,
"text": " even if a small subset of that were devoted to effects, long term effects in terms of psychological effects, sociological effects, physical effects, medical effects,"
},
{
"end_time": 5485.009,
"index": 241,
"start_time": 5464.684,
"text": " of UFOs. I think that would be a window into this phenomenon if the National Science Foundation were able to fund a 10-year program that would focus on getting to the heart of what this UFO performance, all of the physics associated with"
},
{
"end_time": 5513.592,
"index": 242,
"start_time": 5485.009,
"text": " with UFOs and come up with a theoretical model based on actual data. That is really where I think this whole thing should be going because we are unfortunately in the situation where we've had small sort of programs that are trying to do something and then they get truncated or aborted and there's a certain amount of data that comes out"
},
{
"end_time": 5524.514,
"index": 243,
"start_time": 5514.002,
"text": " I think all we know at the end of the day is that what looks like some kind of intelligence seems to be interacting with the human race."
},
{
"end_time": 5551.8,
"index": 244,
"start_time": 5524.974,
"text": " Now, is that intelligence living on the planet since before humans? Or is it coming from another dimension? Or is it coming from another planet? There really is not enough data to come down on either side. I mean, we don't even know what sort of level of, you know, I would guess agenda or"
},
{
"end_time": 5571.323,
"index": 245,
"start_time": 5552.108,
"text": " What is going to happen with this phenomenon in the future as it continues interacting with humans? It seems like over the last 75 years, there seemed to have been a set of different waves associated with how this phenomenon has been interacting."
},
{
"end_time": 5593.49,
"index": 246,
"start_time": 5571.323,
"text": " with humans. But again, we're looking through sort of very sort of distorted viewpoints. You know, I'll give you one example. During the OSAP program, we interviewed Colonel Barry Hennessey, who is a legend at the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, also known as AFOSIPJ,"
},
{
"end_time": 5614.77,
"index": 247,
"start_time": 5593.831,
"text": " And one of the things that he said was, yes, of course the Air Force utilized the UFO phenomenon back in the 70s and 80s to disguise some of our really advanced technology programs. When an advanced version of an aircraft crashed in northern New Mexico,"
},
{
"end_time": 5633.37,
"index": 248,
"start_time": 5614.77,
"text": " In the 80s, we did a lot of behind the scene amplifying the idea that UFOs were involved in order to cover the tracks of a very advanced part of a special access program had crashed in northern New Mexico."
},
{
"end_time": 5650.691,
"index": 249,
"start_time": 5634.275,
"text": " We know also from interviewing Colonel Hennessy that some of the so-called Northern Tier intrusions of UFOs into the Northern Tier Air Force bases, the missile bases that dot along the northern part of the United States,"
},
{
"end_time": 5673.507,
"index": 250,
"start_time": 5650.998,
"text": " near the Canadian border. Some of those were actually ours. They were intrusion detection operations to see how ready the Air Force bases were in terms of reacting to unknowns coming over. But Colonel Hennessy also told us some of the intrusions that happened were not ours."
},
{
"end_time": 5701.34,
"index": 251,
"start_time": 5673.882,
"text": " It was like, we have no idea who they were. They were certainly not ours, but we don't know who they were. So you have this sort of constant sort of ambiguity regarding who owns what's going on. Is it ours or is it theirs? I mean, one of the analytical sort of tools that we've used at the end of OSAP was"
},
{
"end_time": 5724.531,
"index": 252,
"start_time": 5701.34,
"text": " We use this sort of idea that there's two levels of deception going on with the UFO phenomenon. One is the level of deception where the United States government and military is deceiving the public in terms of mimicking the UFO phenomenon for their own purposes in terms of operational security."
},
{
"end_time": 5745.708,
"index": 253,
"start_time": 5724.531,
"text": " And then there's the other side of the phenomenon, where the phenomenon appears to be mimicking some of our special access programs. For example, the eruption of the large black triangles that happened throughout the United States, through Europe, and many places in South America. All of these"
},
{
"end_time": 5771.425,
"index": 254,
"start_time": 5746.135,
"text": " huge triangles seem to be very closely aligned with a lot of people would have imagined were special access programs of the United States military. But at the same time, you know, there were hundreds of cases that were mapped and investigated by our organization, National Institute for Discovery Science, and also that documented these large black triangles"
},
{
"end_time": 5780.759,
"index": 255,
"start_time": 5771.425,
"text": " that were floating at very low altitudes, rightly live over populated areas or down interstate highways."
},
{
"end_time": 5802.295,
"index": 256,
"start_time": 5780.998,
"text": " Now, why would a special access program that was sort of top of the line technology by the United States military being so foolhardy as to, you know, be flying over populated areas, fully lit with bright lights, and sometimes altitudes reported by eyewitnesses"
},
{
"end_time": 5831.544,
"index": 257,
"start_time": 5802.295,
"text": " a couple hundred feet. I mean, that is a gross violation of national security parameters of special access programs. But yet there are hundreds and hundreds of cases of these that were very, very well documented by both National Institute for Discovery Science and by OSAP. I mean, the case that I talked about in Georgia involving this very large black triangle that was literally floating over this guy's"
},
{
"end_time": 5845.384,
"index": 258,
"start_time": 5831.8,
"text": " neighborhood that happened in 2009. I mean, it was, you know, it was not sort of way back in history. It was relatively recent, but we have these during the sort of investigative process."
},
{
"end_time": 5875.572,
"index": 259,
"start_time": 5845.776,
"text": " We have these two layers of deception that we always have to look through in order to get to the data regarding UFOs. And that's not like a normal aspect of scientific research or analysis. Normally in the field of biology or in the field of physics, you are not looking through data or at data through a couple of layers of deception. I mean, it makes things very, very difficult"
},
{
"end_time": 5905.486,
"index": 260,
"start_time": 5875.572,
"text": " George, anything to add to that? No, just sort of playing off of what I said to begin with, as you know, as a journalist, I've tried to get my head around this and have investigated it for more than 30 years, and I don't have the answers to it. The best evidence for me, what got me interested in the subject, is the paper trail."
},
{
"end_time": 5925.333,
"index": 261,
"start_time": 5905.572,
"text": " Our government has known for a long time these things are real. And I know the scientific community, the journalism industry have both dismissed it. They've laughed at it. They've disregarded it. They've paid very little attention over many decades. But our government, our military specifically, knows this is real. They've known it for a long time. And you can trace it"
},
{
"end_time": 5955.043,
"index": 262,
"start_time": 5925.896,
"text": " through this paper trail documents, internal reports, many of them written before the Freedom of Information Act exists in which they admit to each other candidly and documents that they never thought would ever see the light of day. This is real. It's not ours. We don't think it's Russians. It can do things we can't do. We need to figure this out. And ever since then, there have been studies of it. I have followed that paper trail and others have as well. There's a legitimate mystery here that needs to be figured out. It hasn't been figured out. It's been"
},
{
"end_time": 5981.067,
"index": 263,
"start_time": 5955.486,
"text": " dismissed and ridiculed and laughed at. And now, because of some of the information that's come forward and been made public by the likes of Dr. Colm Kelleher, Dr. Hal Putoff, Dr. Kit Green, Dr. Eric Davis, Jacques Ballet, Edgar Mitchell, serious scientists, serious professionals who've had the courage to look at this and then allowed me to be a fly on the wall. There's a lot of progress that's been made."
},
{
"end_time": 6010.367,
"index": 264,
"start_time": 5981.613,
"text": " Hopefully, that will continue. But you can't just ignore it and ridicule it. Your viewers, Kurt, the people who listen to your program, big brain people like that, need to take a look at this. It's a legitimate mystery. It really is going on. It may be central to human existence. It may be the biggest question we ever tackle. Once we figure it out, it will change everything. We're already undergoing some changes because of the revelations of the last four years. And it's a worthwhile endeavor."
},
{
"end_time": 6040.009,
"index": 265,
"start_time": 6011.015,
"text": " We need to fund it. It needs to be studied. We need to figure this out. That's what I would add. You mentioned that there are black helicopters that follow a UFO sighting. Do you think these helicopters are part of the phenomenon or do you think that they're government related? Is the government tracking picking up some trace? What is the purpose? If you were to speculate off, obviously, when we're talking about this topic, all of it is speculation anyway, or most of it is speculation. My guess is it's both. It's both the phenomena"
},
{
"end_time": 6058.712,
"index": 266,
"start_time": 6040.35,
"text": " That assumes different shapes these things these craft the beings themselves are shape chapters. We have a lot of anecdotal evidence over a long period of time that they can change their shape and I think some of them appear in the sky is black helicopters at the site of for example cattle mutilations which is a whole other topic we can get into."
},
{
"end_time": 6078.609,
"index": 267,
"start_time": 6059.07,
"text": " And then there are government operatives who are monitoring the phenomena themselves, who assume that same thing, who operate, and they know that it's going to be dismissed as some weird conspiracy, some UFO related sighting. They can operate with impunity, knowing that there won't be any real investigation by science or the media."
},
{
"end_time": 6108.097,
"index": 268,
"start_time": 6078.609,
"text": " Because it's conspiracy stuff, you know, it's wild, wacky conspiracy stories. I think in many cases, the black helicopters are both some unknown phenomena, assuming that shape and our government monitoring that phenomenon column. Yeah, back in the in the nids era, we we have we were very fortunate to meet a guy called Captain Keith Wolverton, who was stationed in Cache County, just outside Malta Air Force Base,"
},
{
"end_time": 6135.913,
"index": 269,
"start_time": 6108.558,
"text": " in the 70s and 80s. And, you know, Malstrom Air Force Base is legendary in the UFO annals because there have been so many incidents where low-flying UFOs have been documented around Malstrom Air Force Base, including during the late 1960s of the actual missile launch parameters being interfered with by UFOs."
},
{
"end_time": 6139.65,
"index": 270,
"start_time": 6136.169,
"text": " All of that is well documented in books, but"
},
{
"end_time": 6166.613,
"index": 271,
"start_time": 6140.043,
"text": " What really struck us in talking with Captain Keith Wolverton was that he became friendly with the base commander at Mouser Air Force Base. And so the police force around Mouser Air Force Base began a very close level of cooperation between the police and the military people on the Air Force Base. So any time a UFO would show up,"
},
{
"end_time": 6187.483,
"index": 272,
"start_time": 6167.022,
"text": " Captain Keith Walverton knew about it and so he was able to document over time there would be sometimes jet aircraft launched from Alstom Air Force Base to try to intercept these UFOs. But one of the really weird features that happened during this wave of UFO activity was that"
},
{
"end_time": 6216.783,
"index": 273,
"start_time": 6187.688,
"text": " side by side with this wave of UFO activity, there was also a wave of helicopters that neither the Air Force-based personnel or the police force that were tasked with investigating, co-investigating these cases, had any idea where they were coming from. Now, I'm not talking about one or two sightings of helicopters. I'm talking about somewhere between 50 and 100 separate sightings of these"
},
{
"end_time": 6241.442,
"index": 274,
"start_time": 6216.783,
"text": " quote-unquote, black helicopters that seemed to show up in the aftermath of UFOs and layered on top of that, according to Captain Keith Wolverton, was there was a literal explosion of unusual phenomena in people's homes and around the area within a 10-20 mile radius of Maastrom Air Force Base"
},
{
"end_time": 6248.285,
"index": 275,
"start_time": 6241.817,
"text": " But the point I'm trying to make is that the Air Force base commander was well aware"
},
{
"end_time": 6278.268,
"index": 276,
"start_time": 6248.575,
"text": " of the of these black helicopters and he had the wherewithal to be able to track of where these helicopters were coming from and he ran into a brick wall. I mean he simply could not have any information on why these dozens and dozens of black helicopters were showing up around Mouss from Air Force Base usually in the aftermath of UFO sightings and launching fighter aircraft to intercept these UFO"
},
{
"end_time": 6303.114,
"index": 277,
"start_time": 6278.268,
"text": " That's one example of what I'm talking about. So we have this ambiguity regarding these helicopters. Who owns them? Who was flying them? And why are they around? I mean, some of them are obviously United States military, and some of them actually have been tracked to various locations."
},
{
"end_time": 6331.049,
"index": 278,
"start_time": 6303.37,
"text": " that they are obviously US military helicopters, but others are just they kind of seem to disappear into the into the woodwork. And there is a big question mark about about their origins. So in answer to your question, I would say both. They're they're they're both United States military, and they're both from somewhere else. Is there any evidence that the cattle mutilations are"
},
{
"end_time": 6350.196,
"index": 279,
"start_time": 6332.261,
"text": " because of the government, that the government instigates them in some way? Well, that's a long, long story. I mean, OSAP did not do any investigations of cattle mutilations. There were two aspects that we decided"
},
{
"end_time": 6378.558,
"index": 280,
"start_time": 6350.674,
"text": " and the Defense Intelligence Agency decided we would not spend a lot of time and resources, actually three of them, one was the remote viewing that I've already discussed, the second was the cattle mutilation phenomenon, and the third one was we decided not to recruit a whole team to investigate UFO quote-unquote abductions because again that required an enormous amount of"
},
{
"end_time": 6399.343,
"index": 281,
"start_time": 6378.558,
"text": " resources that we knew at the time were not going to be available. So cat immunizations were not investigated by the OSOT program. But back in the National Institute for Discovery Science era, we actually did a lot of forensic investigations of"
},
{
"end_time": 6424.684,
"index": 282,
"start_time": 6399.514,
"text": " And again, I refer to the NIDS website, which you can find by Googling National Institute for Discovery Science on Wikipedia. And there are dozens of reports of NIDS investigations of chalomelations. I will cut to the chase basically and say that we"
},
{
"end_time": 6449.258,
"index": 283,
"start_time": 6425.145,
"text": " literally investigated dozens of mutilations. How do we investigate these? We actually had full-time veterinarian on our staff, a veterinarian who was also a PhD in pathology, so who was well used to doing necropsies, you know, animal autopsies, and so our sort of bottom line was that cattle mutilations"
},
{
"end_time": 6462.005,
"index": 284,
"start_time": 6449.599,
"text": " There was a body of evidence that was lying on the ground, and if we could get to that body quick enough after death that we might be able to get some answers."
},
{
"end_time": 6492.244,
"index": 285,
"start_time": 6462.295,
"text": " So we evolved over many years a situation where we had a bunch of veterinarians who were accredited veterinarians on call. We had a bunch of police officers throughout the Western States and the United States also on call. So we were able to get reports of calculations extremely quickly. And the third thing that we had was that we had a menu of laboratory, analytical laboratories"
},
{
"end_time": 6516.988,
"index": 286,
"start_time": 6492.551,
"text": " at our on-call, on-speed dial, so that if we did manage to get samples, we were able to do histopathology analysis, we were able to do chemical analysis, biochemical analysis, and you know, pretty well all of the different analytical frameworks. So we were pretty well equipped at the end of NIDS to be able to investigate catamolations"
},
{
"end_time": 6542.5,
"index": 287,
"start_time": 6517.261,
"text": " And what we found was that there was really two types of mutilations. One was the standard sort of mutilation where the eye, the ear, the sex organs were removed from the animal. And during that program for NIS,"
},
{
"end_time": 6562.466,
"index": 288,
"start_time": 6542.807,
"text": " We did a lot of analytical chemistry. We did elemental analysis of the blood from mutilated animals. Occasionally we found what looked like sedatives. We used gas chromatography, mass spectrometry. We used liquid chromatography, mass spectrometry. We used inductive coupled"
},
{
"end_time": 6583.951,
"index": 289,
"start_time": 6562.466,
"text": " plasma mass spectrometry determine elemental analysis. So we threw the kitchen sink in terms of analytical capability at what was in these animals following necropsy. We also did histology analysis and we determined that yes sharp instruments were used but some of the time we used we were able to"
},
{
"end_time": 6605.606,
"index": 290,
"start_time": 6583.951,
"text": " document compounds like oxandol, succinylcholine, which are sedatives. So that made us suspicious. On other occasions, including investigations up in Montana, we were able to locate 10 gauge needles that were found under"
},
{
"end_time": 6626.152,
"index": 291,
"start_time": 6605.606,
"text": " In other cases, we were able to find medical paraphernalia associated with exsanguinating an animal. In other words, hooking up an animal to a large gauge needle and removing all the blood from the animal. So we began to get suspicious as time went on that there was"
},
{
"end_time": 6655.23,
"index": 292,
"start_time": 6626.152,
"text": " a pattern associated with some of these cases. So we put out the hypothesis that, you know, maybe this was part of a case of, you know, applying sedatives to the animals and then investigating these animals for the spread of, say, an infectious disease organism. And, you know, a lot of these infectious disease could be through the Western herds in the United States."
},
{
"end_time": 6667.671,
"index": 293,
"start_time": 6655.589,
"text": " We investigated or we put out the hypothesis that maybe some of these infectious proteins called prions might have been the source of concern"
},
{
"end_time": 6696.715,
"index": 294,
"start_time": 6667.995,
"text": " as they were sort of exploding in the United Kingdom and Europe in the 1990s and killing a lot of people who were eating contaminated meat. So there might have been a small, very, very small program. All you need is a couple of trained veterinarians, a couple of skilled surgeons, a couple of helicopters, a very small program, in other words, that could monitor the spread of an infectious organism"
},
{
"end_time": 6721.596,
"index": 295,
"start_time": 6696.715,
"text": " through the cattle in the wild in the western part of the United States. Why would you want to do that rather than going to, say, slaughterhouses and abattoirs and sampling from there? The answer to that is you would not get the same amount of data from sampling abattoirs and slaughterhouses as you would by flying in at night"
},
{
"end_time": 6741.886,
"index": 296,
"start_time": 6721.937,
"text": " and basically sampling animals within several hundred miles if you were trying to track the spread of an infectious organism. Prion is an infectious protein that was responsible for"
},
{
"end_time": 6764.002,
"index": 297,
"start_time": 6742.312,
"text": " destruction of millions of animals in the United Kingdom and Europe, and it was a source of huge amounts of concern in the United States in the 1990s, especially the FDA and the USDA, the United States Department of Agriculture"
},
{
"end_time": 6788.063,
"index": 298,
"start_time": 6764.36,
"text": " were very concerned about the spread of this. So that was one hypothesis we came up with. Why did we come up with this? Because we use forensic analysis to determine that somebody was using sharp instruments on these animals to cut them open. We found that unequivocally from the histopathology analysis. And then we found all of these suspicious compounds"
},
{
"end_time": 6816.374,
"index": 299,
"start_time": 6788.37,
"text": " through standard forensic analytical chemistry and we also found evidence of medical hardware underneath and associated with a small number of these animals. So you know that we put out this hypothesis and again it's these published papers are on the news website if people want to take a look at them. Let me add this"
},
{
"end_time": 6836.561,
"index": 300,
"start_time": 6816.869,
"text": " Hypothesis was there are two levels of mutilators, mystery mutilators. There's the original one that's been carrying this out for decades under the cover of night, carving up animals with surgical precision, removing the same sort of parts, not leaving behind certain compounds, not leaving behind medical instruments."
},
{
"end_time": 6861.254,
"index": 301,
"start_time": 6836.561,
"text": " It's a complete mystery how it's carried out. There were some cases where high heat instrumentation was used in these cases, the classic mutilation stories that we've always heard. NIDS investigated those, and most of the cases they investigated did not show these kind of telltale signs of human intervention. Someone, mystery mutilators, have been carrying this out for decades over a broad part of the United States and other parts of the world."
},
{
"end_time": 6885.026,
"index": 302,
"start_time": 6861.613,
"text": " then later there were an additional level of mutilators who came in under the umbrella of this seemingly paranormal mystery who operated with impunity thinking they can get away with it. No one's really going to seriously investigate it because it's the space people doing these mysterious mutilations. There were cases on the ranch, for example, that defy explanation. I'm thinking of one in particular"
},
{
"end_time": 6915.401,
"index": 303,
"start_time": 6885.486,
"text": " There were something like 14 head of cattle that vanished, that you'd see the tracks lead out into the snow and then the cow is gone as if it sucked up into the sky. There were cases that the neighbors reported of cattle that seemed to have been dropped from the sky, their legs were broken. There were cases on the ranch, one in particular that we wrote about in the hunt for the skinwalker, the rancher and his wife had had all this bizarre activity on their property. They carry on. They were really financially strapped because of the loss of these very expensive animals."
},
{
"end_time": 6924.974,
"index": 304,
"start_time": 6915.828,
"text": " It's a Sunday morning, it's a bright sunny day, quiet out there in the country. They go out to tag the ears of newborn calves. They had several calves on their pasture."
},
{
"end_time": 6954.258,
"index": 305,
"start_time": 6925.555,
"text": " going to tag the ears, which is a process that the ranchers do to identify these animals. There's a calf and its mom 50 yards from the house where they live. That's the first one they come to. They tag the ear of this newborn calf. They move off across the property again, very quiet. There's no obstruction. The weather is calm. They go off on the property. About 30 minutes or so later, a dog that's traveling with them alerts them that something's going on. So they look back at this calf, the first one that they had tagged,"
},
{
"end_time": 6981.357,
"index": 306,
"start_time": 6954.718,
"text": " And the mom, the cow, is going around in circles. Its eyes are bulging out. It's obviously distressed. It's dragging its leg behind it. Rancher and his wife go back over there to where this calf was. This calf is completely emaciated. It is wiped out. It is stripped of all its flesh. The only thing left is bones and hide. There's no blood in the animal. There's no blood on the ground. 75 pounds of meat gone. How did it happen?"
},
{
"end_time": 6995.913,
"index": 307,
"start_time": 6981.8,
"text": " Why didn't they, why weren't they able to hear it? Could a predator, what predator comes in and wipes out a calf and makes no sound and leaves no blood? NIDS team brought in a tracker, professional tracker, to look for animal tracks."
},
{
"end_time": 7015.981,
"index": 308,
"start_time": 6996.357,
"text": " to look for human tracks, vehicle tracks, didn't find it. They took samples of that, sent it to two different pathology labs. The investigators figured out that two different cutting instruments had been used, something like a heavy machete to whack off chunks of flesh and then something with the scalpel type precision. How does that happen?"
},
{
"end_time": 7041.22,
"index": 309,
"start_time": 7016.408,
"text": " How does it happen in broad daylight that nobody sees it now? Is that the mystery government mutilators, a team of commandos comes in completely undetected and wipes out this cap and leaves it there for people to find? Or is it something else? I think it's probably something else. Maybe Colin wants to add to that. Well, you know that it goes back to the idea that"
},
{
"end_time": 7068.899,
"index": 310,
"start_time": 7041.613,
"text": " It's very, very easy for a team of people who are sampling, carrying out these illegal killings of cattle sampling at night, because you've got two things that are working for you. And that is number one, you've got this whole aura of UFOs associated with cattle mutilations and no respectable veterinarian"
},
{
"end_time": 7090.913,
"index": 311,
"start_time": 7069.138,
"text": " or no respectable police officer wants to have anything to do with this if there's even the taint of quote unquote aliens associated with it. And the second thing that you have going for you is you have the decomposition process, especially in summer. I mean, the decomposition process of a cow is extremely rapid."
},
{
"end_time": 7112.654,
"index": 312,
"start_time": 7090.913,
"text": " because their entire rumen, which is the second or third stomach that they have, is loaded with bacteria and microorganisms which actually chew up the entire flesh extremely quickly. So all you have to do if you are actually sampling an animal on the ground is wait for 48 hours"
},
{
"end_time": 7129.599,
"index": 313,
"start_time": 7112.927,
"text": " And pretty well all of the evidence is gone by means of Mother Nature. You don't even have to cover up your tracks. All you have to do is take your samples and get out of there. But you know what George is saying is absolutely true. There were a small number of these cases"
},
{
"end_time": 7159.735,
"index": 314,
"start_time": 7129.838,
"text": " that where we documented and they were obviously not the perpetrators that I've been talking about. There was something else going on and we documented cases in Northern California. They also had this weird effect that George described of the case in Utah. We documented other cases in California too. So there was a small component of these that had this"
},
{
"end_time": 7163.473,
"index": 315,
"start_time": 7159.735,
"text": " bazaar paranormal taint"
},
{
"end_time": 7192.551,
"index": 316,
"start_time": 7163.814,
"text": " to it. And then you had this other large number of cases that were consistent with some kind of a sampling exercise. And, you know, it's the same kind of thing as the UFO phenomenon. The United States government used the UFO phenomenon as a way of covering up their special access programs. So maybe some sort of small contractor was using the UFO Lord associated with academy relations to also cover up their tracks."
},
{
"end_time": 7221.852,
"index": 317,
"start_time": 7192.875,
"text": " George and Collum, I know you both have to go, so how about I read two questions and you can choose one of them. So this one comes from Steven Greenstreet and he wants to know, what is the best piece of evidence of something paranormal occurring at Skinwalker Ranch? And I'll add an addendum, best public piece of evidence."
},
{
"end_time": 7251.544,
"index": 318,
"start_time": 7222.671,
"text": " The second question is Chris123456789 says, and this is a wonderful question. Okay. If there were no observer to witness these UAPs, Bigfoot, cattle mutilations, dark shadow, et cetera, would they still happen? How much of these phenomenon are perhaps co-created by a consciousness observing them? Are these phenomenon independent entities with lives, history, goals, instincts of their own? Or are they manifestations for the benefit of a conscious observer"
},
{
"end_time": 7273.319,
"index": 319,
"start_time": 7252.21,
"text": " I think you should take that one, Colin. Well, I mean, you have brought up the sort of, or your listener, that's a very sort of loaded question, because it does get into this whole"
},
{
"end_time": 7300.282,
"index": 320,
"start_time": 7273.626,
"text": " sort of dichotomy between observer versus observed, it gets into sort of these quantum realities of whether or not observers interfere with experiments at the quantum level. And also it does sort of raise the question of what exactly is human consciousness and"
},
{
"end_time": 7320.606,
"index": 321,
"start_time": 7300.674,
"text": " One of the aspects that has been really intriguing me in the last five to 10 years, there really has been a sort of a literal explosion of new people who are entering the field of the investigation of"
},
{
"end_time": 7346.561,
"index": 322,
"start_time": 7320.606,
"text": " human consciousness. And there, you know, some of these people are sort of taking a stance on human consciousness that is away from the standard dogma that we've had for about 100 years, which is that consciousness arises as a result of neurochemical trafficking in the brain. And some of these people like, you know, I can think of Bernardo Kastrup in the Netherlands,"
},
{
"end_time": 7367.927,
"index": 323,
"start_time": 7346.869,
"text": " and Donald Hoffman who was a professor at UC Irvine, Federico Fahin who is literally the inventor of the microprocessor at Intel Corporation. I mean talk about hard-nosed materialists but I mean he's written a book or two books I think recently"
},
{
"end_time": 7394.053,
"index": 324,
"start_time": 7367.927,
"text": " that are basically saying that consciousness may not arise as a result of neurochemical trafficking in the brain. We've got people like Edward, Professor Edward Kelly, at the Division of Persexual Studies at the University of Virginia. And even in the biological arena, you've got Professor Robert Lanza, who's written a couple of books on biocentrism,"
},
{
"end_time": 7420.913,
"index": 325,
"start_time": 7394.053,
"text": " I mean, these people are also all saying the same thing that, you know, consciousness is prime, you know, consciousness is really the sort of the mover and the shaker in this whole equation. So, you know, Bernardo Castro, especially has sort of written some of the blogs that he's written for Scientific American and elsewhere, he's really reduced it down to sort of concepts that"
},
{
"end_time": 7442.773,
"index": 326,
"start_time": 7421.459,
"text": " you know, even a biologist like myself can understand. And that is, you know, he's, he's put out this concept, you know, of, you know, maybe, maybe our, our sense of reality is actually more like the dashboard of an aircraft, and that you're flying an aircraft via instruments"
},
{
"end_time": 7466.186,
"index": 327,
"start_time": 7443.046,
"text": " And outside this aircraft, there's a sort of a storm and there's a whole lot of different things happening. But the pilot of the aircraft is flying purely by use of this instrumentation. And so, you know, the translation of the metaphor into human consciousness is that human perception is a function of the dashboard"
},
{
"end_time": 7485.333,
"index": 328,
"start_time": 7466.186,
"text": " and our five senses are essentially the instrumentation that we're flying with through life and outside these five senses there's a whole world that we are not perceiving and so one hypothesis of the intersection of UFOs versus this sort of"
},
{
"end_time": 7515.111,
"index": 329,
"start_time": 7485.469,
"text": " avant-garde way of looking at human consciousness is that maybe UFOs are outside the dashboard and they they seem to appear or disappear at sort of out of whim or sort of in a very sort of fast way maybe they're outside this sort of dashboard and that you know people in the future as they attack the UFO phenomenon we need sort of people who are"
},
{
"end_time": 7535.998,
"index": 330,
"start_time": 7515.111,
"text": " part of this vanguard of human consciousness research, because there may be overlaps that we just have not looked at. And, you know, the sort of the standard way of looking at the UFO phenomenon, especially sort of from the perspective of the military intelligence apparatus is"
},
{
"end_time": 7555.64,
"index": 331,
"start_time": 7536.254,
"text": " We are going to study only the UFO performance. We're going to study only the five observables or the six observables, the parameters of a UFO that make it extremely unlikely that it is, you know, a special access program."
},
{
"end_time": 7578.422,
"index": 332,
"start_time": 7555.64,
"text": " from the United States. And that's all we're going to do. Everything else is off the table because quote unquote, it's not a part of the mandate from the United States security apparatus. But guess what, you know, maybe the UFO phenomenon doesn't care at all about the security parameters of the United States on what constitutes"
},
{
"end_time": 7592.807,
"index": 333,
"start_time": 7578.422,
"text": " Security parameters and what constitutes a viable way of investigating this phenomenon. Maybe the United States military is going to investigate using this narrow perspective and completely miss the boat."
},
{
"end_time": 7620.23,
"index": 334,
"start_time": 7593.814,
"text": " I mean we've seen and heard snippets and rumors and innuendo that some of these tic-tac-tac pilots had long-term effects, you know, that might even include long-term effects on their psychology and maybe their health or maybe their consciousness. So I see going forward that, you know, we really need to broaden the scope of the UFO investigative"
},
{
"end_time": 7648.677,
"index": 335,
"start_time": 7620.23,
"text": " framework as opposed to narrowing it. And I don't care what a bureaucrat from undersecretary of defense for intelligence decides to say what is part of the United States military perspective or not. I don't think the UFO phenomenon really cares. As for the question from Stephen about the best evidence regarding the ranch of paranormal events,"
},
{
"end_time": 7677.961,
"index": 336,
"start_time": 7649.206,
"text": " I'd answer it this way. I mean, Robert Bigelow in an interview we did years ago and then another one last year, it's maddening what happens at the ranch. It's frustrating in that whatever the intelligence is that's there, it calls the shots. We get to see what it allows us to see. The most compelling accounts come from eyewitnesses, the people who've been on the property. Bigelow bought the ranch in the mid-90s. There's been a constant presence there since."
},
{
"end_time": 7707.278,
"index": 337,
"start_time": 7678.217,
"text": " The NID study, the OSAP study, and then the current efforts by Brandon Fugel, and all three of those groups have experienced the same kinds of things. It's never exactly the same. The only thing that's predictable is its unpredictability. A lot of the accounts, the very compelling stories, are things that people see once and then it's gone. This intelligence, and I think it is an intelligence, plays games. It's a trickster. It messes with your mind. It always seems to know what you are going to do before you do it."
},
{
"end_time": 7737.637,
"index": 338,
"start_time": 7707.858,
"text": " So dramatic incidents can happen, and there's nothing left behind to prove that it ever happened. But occasionally, it has a physical effect. It has physical, demonstrable, measurable effects. For example, what happens to the animals? You have cattle that are mutilated. You have cats that are carved up in the middle of the night in a snowstorm. Dogs that are incinerated. Horses that are slashed by these crypto creatures. Those things happen. They were documented."
},
{
"end_time": 7762.585,
"index": 339,
"start_time": 7737.637,
"text": " You have physical effects for example there were four large bulls during the nids era that were in this corral the rancher and his wife are going to town they've already lost a lot of different heads of livestock they're in danger of going under financially they say to each other casually boy if something happens to one of those bulls we're in big trouble they come back in less than an hour later all four of the bulls are gone in a panic they go looking for them"
},
{
"end_time": 7790.503,
"index": 340,
"start_time": 7762.892,
"text": " Somehow those four bulls had been, in essence, dematerialized from the corral and crammed into this tiny storage shed adjacent to this corral. They're in there. The rancher finds them. They're kind of in a trance crammed in there. You could not get these bulls into there with a forklift and a team of army commandos, but somehow they got in there. They let the bulls out. The bulls kick off the side of it. They get out. They're very surly in a bad mood. Photos are taken."
},
{
"end_time": 7806.578,
"index": 341,
"start_time": 7790.503,
"text": " The subsequent physical effects that were measured by the NIDS guys where the entire metal corral had been magnetized and it stayed magnetized for a couple of days. There are all these measurable EM effects and effects on equipment. For example, all three of those organizations"
},
{
"end_time": 7822.09,
"index": 342,
"start_time": 7807.039,
"text": " have put all kinds of cameras out there camera gear both up on on on poles and at different places of the ranch and they carry gear compasses and other sensors to try to document effects this phenomena whatever it is laughs at it."
},
{
"end_time": 7850.998,
"index": 343,
"start_time": 7822.09,
"text": " It will knock out compasses. Compasses will spin around. They're of no use. You have a camera. The batteries drain. The camera dies right before something happens where the camera would have been able to document it. It's infuriating. It's frustrating to try to document things, but it happens over and over again over a period of almost close to 30 years now. So there are measurable effects. There was an ice circle that we documented during the NIDS period that the NIDS guys documented."
},
{
"end_time": 7875.538,
"index": 344,
"start_time": 7851.152,
"text": " an impossible thing that was carved in this tiny little thin layer of ice. They can't figure out how it happened. There was one instance where something went up a 75 foot telephone pole where they had a camera and destroyed it while another camera was watching it. Whatever did it was invisible. It's very frustrating. I think it's frustrating on purpose. It gives us glimpses"
},
{
"end_time": 7894.77,
"index": 345,
"start_time": 7876.169,
"text": " of this other reality at times. There were holes in the sky that would appear and craft would come in and out. There were craft that seemed to fly directly into Skinwalker Ridge that defy our physics. There were other craft that were, you know, the rancher and the family there in the first years that they were there. They'd see these things."
},
{
"end_time": 7923.899,
"index": 346,
"start_time": 7894.77,
"text": " They're not trying to document it for a UFO audience. They're trying to survive out there on what they thought was their dream property. They end up giving it up and moving away because they were so frustrated by what happened to them. So it is difficult to document. It is a challenge to document it, but it's an intriguing challenge. It's an exciting challenge, and it's one we have to take on. There is physical evidence that can be examined and investigated. A lot of the things that happen are not in the physical realm. That makes it more of a challenge, I would think."
},
{
"end_time": 7952.619,
"index": 347,
"start_time": 7926.34,
"text": " Thank you so much, George. Thank you so much, Colin. I appreciate it. There are more than 3,000 people watching. So say hello to them. Many of them are just expressing their thanks and plaudits toward you all. So thank you so much. It's a pleasure. It's a blessing. Thank you. Thanks, Kurt. Talk to you again. Thank you. It's been really good to have this discussion. Enjoyable."
},
{
"end_time": 7978.404,
"index": 348,
"start_time": 7953.404,
"text": " Okay, and like I mentioned, we'll look into a part two in a few months. So if anyone has lingering questions, just write them down. Take care. I'll stick around to speak with the audience if I can. Okay. Okay. Yeah, no, it's not a sickness like that. What I'm feeling it's something else. It's not it's not a virus. It's nothing like that. It's more"
},
{
"end_time": 8003.336,
"index": 349,
"start_time": 7979.326,
"text": " I can't talk about it. Okay, so let's see. Wolfstein, thank you. Jacob asks, what work can individuals do to contribute to the study of this? I believe somewhere around 35 minutes into this, maybe 40 minutes into this. Column outlines some of that. So I'll go and look into that. And I will try to timestamp that."
},
{
"end_time": 8034.462,
"index": 350,
"start_time": 8004.718,
"text": " Oral Decoy says, vertigo and anxiety, I can relate. Yeah, I would say that it's not vertigo, but anxiety. Wilheim says, Linda Moulton deserves an apologize. So I know what you mean, an apology. And I, I don't want to talk about this publicly because it doesn't, it's not, it's like praying in public. It's not something that should be done, but I did apologize to Linda. Thank you. Thank you everyone for your, your kind comments."
},
{
"end_time": 8057.688,
"index": 351,
"start_time": 8034.565,
"text": " A couple people were mentioned. Bernardo Castroff was mentioned. Donald Hoffman was mentioned. Just so you know, there's an interview with Bernardo Castroff. I'm going to link that. It's going to be in the description. Same with Donald Hoffman on this channel. I think they're some of the best with them. And that's not because of myself. It's because I happen to catch them at great days on their best behavior. And"
},
{
"end_time": 8088.08,
"index": 352,
"start_time": 8059.326,
"text": " Donald Hoffman is also coming on live on Sunday with Yoshabok to talk about consciousness. After Salvatore Pais and Gary Nolan, which will occur in a few weeks or so, I'm thinking of taking a lengthy break from this UFO content. I tend to take matters on this channel extremely seriously, whether they're about consciousness theories or physics or what have you, and it's extremely destabilizing to me. Perhaps I shouldn't be taking them as seriously as I do, but I"
},
{
"end_time": 8118.37,
"index": 353,
"start_time": 8088.456,
"text": " but I treat them, well, I take them seriously. There's this quote by Rene Descartes which says something like, which says something like, I've fallen unexpectedly into a deep whirlpool and I can't stand at the bottom nor swim to the top. So that's much like how I feel. And I want to also make sure that what I'm doing on this UFO topic is fresh and salutary. And while the comment section is filled with plaudits,"
},
{
"end_time": 8148.524,
"index": 354,
"start_time": 8119.275,
"text": " I want to make sure that the adulation or the approbation is directed toward the toe approach or the questions asked. I want to make sure that that I'm... Well, I don't I don't see it. It doesn't mean it's not there. It's just that I don't see it. So I need to be able to see it. And I also want to make sure that I'm... There's so much there. I want to make sure that this is... It's obvious that these videos are quite popular on the toe channel. They're the most popular. And I fear"
},
{
"end_time": 8172.483,
"index": 355,
"start_time": 8148.882,
"text": " I want to make sure that what I'm doing I'm not doing I'm not pursuing because it's favored and it's so like I don't feel like I am I feel like I'm genuine about it and and I'm earnest but I know how easy it is to delude oneself into pursuing what's popular so I need to take some time and collect myself I've seen people like even even Jordan Peterson go down that route"
},
{
"end_time": 8200.913,
"index": 356,
"start_time": 8172.807,
"text": " where he has great work in psychology and religion, and now almost all of his content is about being anti-woken and so on. I feel like he became embittered from that and followed some of the crowd. I need to make sure that I'm not doing that. I need to make sure that what I'm doing is not selfish and not filled with perfidy, mendacity, lies and deceit. Not that it is, but I'm saying that"
},
{
"end_time": 8219.616,
"index": 357,
"start_time": 8201.903,
"text": " I need to introspect some more, but I also do too much introspection. I'm a bit extreme on that. There is an upside to it though, that it would give some of the, let's think of the Toe project as being split into two audiences, the UFO audience and then those who are more interested in the STEM."
},
{
"end_time": 8249.343,
"index": 358,
"start_time": 8219.889,
"text": " fields. While it may be true that those who are in the STEM fields, like the theoretical math and physics, should be more interested in the phenomenon and that learning a little bit about it can aid their understanding of STEM. While that's true, I think the flip side is also true where understanding even a modicum of the foundations of mathematics and physics may aid one's understanding of the phenomenon. So perhaps it will give some of the people who are on the more UFO oriented end of the Toe audience or the Toe projects audience"
},
{
"end_time": 8265.538,
"index": 359,
"start_time": 8250.196,
"text": " a link to that in the description."
},
{
"end_time": 8295.708,
"index": 360,
"start_time": 8266.357,
"text": " Jasmine says, are you going to address how ridiculously ignorant and disrespectful your chat is always when these topics are being discussed? Well, I wouldn't say my chat. It's so tricky. The chat that happens on the videos that are posted on this channel. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't have time to look through these when I'm speaking. And I do with regard to Linda Moulton Howe, I do condemn the comments that speak ill of her, especially with derision."
},
{
"end_time": 8324.07,
"index": 361,
"start_time": 8295.93,
"text": " I don't think that one should be derogatory toward Linda or any guest. You can be derogatory toward me. The Toe Project is about love. It's about clemency. So please, if you're being snide and you're despising, then that's not the compassionate understanding that the Toe Project is trying to emulate. So I'll say that. No, also keep in mind, keep in mind, hey, for something this fractious,"
},
{
"end_time": 8353.575,
"index": 362,
"start_time": 8324.428,
"text": " This controversial, this topic that's so alarming, the comments are actually extremely civil. So that I'm surprised about while obviously there are there are negative comments. I'm almost always surprised to how much positive comments there are. There's so much that I want to say about that Linda Moulton Howe interview. There's so much that I regret and so much that I I just but I feel like what I would be doing would be justifying myself like a little child."
},
{
"end_time": 8375.333,
"index": 363,
"start_time": 8353.951,
"text": " And I don't want to do that. I just want to take my lumps. Though there's so much that is false that I've read, for example, Linda was under the impression that I didn't read or go through the material that she sent, which is false. I watched all of what she sent as for reading. Well, she has plenty of work and there were tomes, so I wasn't able to read all of it, though I skimmed it."
},
{
"end_time": 8390.401,
"index": 364,
"start_time": 8376.425,
"text": " And I feel like that contributed to a negative impression of her toward me. I feel like my questions were ill timed. I feel like it's false to say that I was harder on her than I was on other guests. And someone keeps saying, yeah, but your average guess. What do you mean average?"
},
{
"end_time": 8420.811,
"index": 365,
"start_time": 8391.186,
"text": " in statistics you don't look at the average you look at variance like you have to look there's something they're higher order corrective terms variance is one of them because if it unless a distribution is simple then average means nothing and i would say it was in the variance of the channel the way that i spoke with her it doesn't mean that i spoke optimally but i would i wouldn't say it was drastically different and i do regret it i do regret how it happened some people say yeah you didn't push back enough or you pushed back too much my role on this toe"
},
{
"end_time": 8451.305,
"index": 366,
"start_time": 8421.374,
"text": " channel is not to be a skeptic or to push back. That's not how I see it. I don't think in terms of that. I don't even think in terms of well, how many I have to have one hard question per every five questions. I just wanted to know if she was aware of the criticisms of her work, which is why I kept bringing it up. I didn't hear the answers from her. So I would repeat questions. And thus we spent more time on the criticisms, quote unquote criticisms, because I had to keep repeating the questions because she would give"
},
{
"end_time": 8478.131,
"index": 367,
"start_time": 8451.988,
"text": " An answer that was five to 10 minutes long and I couldn't hear the response to my inquiry in there. Now there's someone like Lou Alessandro, who's infamous for not answering the question. So why is it any different with him? Well, the difference with Lou is that Lou, Lou is self aware that he's not answering the questions directly. And we'll even bring it up. Like he'll either say, I can't answer it because of reasons X, Y, and Z, or he'll"
},
{
"end_time": 8502.756,
"index": 368,
"start_time": 8479.002,
"text": " So I'll give an answer that's parenthetically related or metaphorically related or thematically related. And also there were shorter answers. Whereas with Linda, I would wait, I'm listening, I'm listening. I'm like, Linda, I didn't quite hear the answer to that. And also as for speaking with her for two and a half hours, the interview was essentially of unspecified time."
},
{
"end_time": 8533.166,
"index": 369,
"start_time": 8503.626,
"text": " And she had just come from proudly stating that she has more energy than she's ever had and that she works 18 hour days and that she speaks at conferences for hours on end. So I didn't think it was uncouth to ask her, hey, can you answer a couple more questions? I know we've been going for two and a half hours. In fact, I was taking her at her word when she said that she had more energy than she's ever had. Either way, I just have to move forward from that. Okay. Well, everyone. Thank you. Take care, everyone. I appreciate you all being here."
},
{
"end_time": 8555.145,
"index": 370,
"start_time": 8535.981,
"text": " The podcast is now finished. If you'd like to support conversations like this, then do consider going to patreon.com slash C-U-R-T-J-A-I-M-U-N-G-A-L. That is Kurt Jaimungal. It's support from the patrons and from the sponsors that allow me to do this full time. Every dollar helps tremendously. Thank you."
}
]
}No transcript available.