Unsolved Mysteries: Flint River Killer, Alcatraz Escape & Other Cold Cases

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      "text": " And he claimed LSD made him do it. His name, David Minor IV, and we talked to him. Listen to Invisible Choir every other week as we uncover the most haunting true crimes you've never heard of, available wherever you get your podcasts."
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      "text": " the one benefit they were given was hot showers other prisons you might have to take a cold shower but not Alcatraz because they didn't want them to get acclimated to cold water so he's sitting there telling them look if you do this you're gonna have to leave on this side of the island at this time of day when the tide is in this predicament because it'll actually push you toward Angel Island and that's gonna be your best benefit so listen Matt it's the only"
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      "text": " What? Exactly. You couldn't even"
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      "text": " We're at lunch one day and he looks at me and he says, Hey, do you mind if I give your kids some advice? And I said, of course not, you know, please. So he looks at my daughter who's 10 and he says, never."
    },
    {
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      "text": " Hey, this is Matt Cox and I am here with Cheryl McCollum. She goes by Mac. She's in law enforcement. She was on CSI Atlanta. She is involved in cold cases and we're going to talk about some cold cases and just some and basically her background. So check out the check out the interview. Where were you born? I was born in Atlanta, Georgia."
    },
    {
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      "index": 13,
      "start_time": 327.176,
      "text": " I grew up in Fulton County my entire life, even went to college in downtown Atlanta at Georgia State, still work in Fulton County. So I'm right here, native. And how did you, so what, what got you interested in law enforcement? Wait a minute. Was it your mom? Yes. Okay. No, but no doubt she, my mother could tell a story that would just stop you dead in your tracks."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 386.254,
      "index": 14,
      "start_time": 356.305,
      "text": " And she was a tremendous gifted storyteller and she knew a ton of history. She was a history teacher. So she would craft it in a way that you would just be on the edge of your seat. Well, we used to take long car trips. And when you would get outside Atlanta about an hour and a half, the radio wouldn't work any longer. Well, she had five girls to entertain. So she would usually start somewhere like, you know what this road reminds me of?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 416.578,
      "index": 15,
      "start_time": 386.715,
      "text": " Well, then we would know, here it comes. And the first story that I remember being captivated by was Bonnie and Clyde. And it just went from there. And so then she would tell us stories about John Dillinger and Al Capone and Babyface Nelson. And it just never stopped being interesting to me. So from the age of four on, you know, it was always, what can I learn about? What can I read about? Who can I go meet? What can I go see?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 446.067,
      "index": 16,
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      "text": " And when they were when I was eight, they took me to see the death car. And then when I was 12, they took me to Alcatraz. So it just never left me. Yeah. What did Bonnie and Clyde they was at 18 months or something there? They're 16 months. They're crying. You know, it seems like it was, you know, if you hear all the stories that you think, oh, pretty much years and years, but it wasn't that long. It was not that long. No. I was wondering, I wonder what the real story is."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 476.459,
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      "text": " You know, because there were, there are like those reports and the documentaries that talk about how, um, gosh, was it, uh, who was the FBI director then? Um, Hoover, right? Like he was, you know, kind of trying to manipulate the press, you know, what was happening, what wasn't happening. And then it was like, okay, they were gunning down the officers or wait, maybe the officers shot at them first or who, you know, like, I don't know, but it's kind of like, I, I had"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 503.166,
      "index": 18,
      "start_time": 476.988,
      "text": " I said earlier, before we even started about that, the con man guy that I watched that movie about, it was a, it was a movie that was based on true events, but it was a real story. And I talked to the guy that wrote, wrote the story and did all the investigating and the guys on the FBI's most wonderful list. Like he was, he was just, he was a kind of, it was kind of a, it was very much, he was a con man. He was always running a little scams and things."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 529.138,
      "index": 19,
      "start_time": 503.626,
      "text": " And then suddenly he ended up just out of the blue. He just, he robbed a courier and he shot and killed them. And it was so senseless that it just didn't, it made no sense at all. It was out, totally out of character. So you just never know. Like you think like Bonnie and Clyde, like they're robbing banks, but they don't really want to hurt anybody. But then again, that doesn't mean that they weren't necessarily also killing people. Maybe they did. Maybe they, who knows?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 557.159,
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      "text": " Right. Well, I'll tell you, I need to introduce you to Raylene Linder and Buddy Barra. They are family members of Bonnie and Clyde, and they can tell you firsthand what they know. Raylene knew everybody involved, and their story is, I don't even know how to tell you how captivating. And it's a good, you know, again, to me, if you look at the history of crime, you can see the history of America."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 586.954,
      "index": 21,
      "start_time": 557.483,
      "text": " And when you talk about somebody like J. Edgar Hoover, he was a marketer. He was brilliant when he came up with, you know, the most wanted, you know, public enemy number one. That's genius, because now you've got everybody bought in to get in this person. So if in fact, you know, John Dillinger is gunned down on the street, you've already told everybody he's the most violent person there is. So nobody questions anything about it."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 615.896,
      "index": 22,
      "start_time": 587.585,
      "text": " You know, so to me, he did an unbelievable job in that regard. But there's always two sides. So I think, you know, if you got a chance to talk to Ray Lane, you would just adore her. Right. I mean, there's just there's so many underhanded things that, you know, Hoover was involved in that was that there was there were these there was a Nazi plot where they dropped off these saboteurs and one of the one of the Germans"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 644.326,
      "index": 23,
      "start_time": 616.203,
      "text": " went straight to the FBI and said, Hey, listen, this is what's going on. Like we landed, there's like six, six of us were supposed to blow this stuff up. I don't want to be involved. And they go and they arrest all of them, including the guy that went to them. And they, they, they try them and they give them, they all get like the electric chair. And just before the one, one of the, the main guy that had gone and turned them in,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 673.234,
      "index": 24,
      "start_time": 644.957,
      "text": " And keep in mind, they didn't even want to believe him. He had to show up with a bunch of counterfeit money. He pulled out like $30,000 in counterfeit U.S. bills and said, look, they gave us this money to use. It's counterfeit. They were like, what the hell? So that was that made them think, oh, this has got to be real. Yeah, it turns out like the president commuted the guy's sentence, the life. But Hoover had pitched it as we discovered this plot. We arrested these guys and then"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 699.872,
      "index": 25,
      "start_time": 673.609,
      "text": " Ends up getting these guys the the death penalty and never says this guy came forward He was the reason and he's ready to execute him too. What a great way to keep him quiet Yeah, there's so many little underhanded things like that about Hoover that So it's I don't know There's the same thing with like, you know, the Bonnie and Clyde thing like where they you know, they definitely they definitely murdered some people but I wonder how it came about and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 725.043,
      "index": 26,
      "start_time": 700.196,
      "text": " And they definitely robbed some banks, but did they rob all of the ones that they were, you know, pinned for? Right. I mean, there was no better time basically to rob your own bank and blame it on them. Right. Right. Or, or how much was, you know, how much was actually taken? You know, exactly. I got $500, you know, but they got $200. Right. Right. So"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 755.674,
      "index": 27,
      "start_time": 726.8,
      "text": " So the Alcatraz thing, we had talked about the Alcatraz that you had met one of the guys that was an Alcatraz bank robber. Yes, Robert Chavon, inmate 1355, honey. Why? Why did you? So how did you get connected with him? I got connected because again, I'm a history buff when it comes to crime. And, you know, sometimes a story will just resonate with me. Well, the way he robbed banks, his getaway vehicle,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 775.043,
      "index": 28,
      "start_time": 756.271,
      "text": " Right. Right."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 804.94,
      "index": 29,
      "start_time": 775.674,
      "text": " When they dock the first time when they came Navy because he was in the Navy, right? So when they came around the second time he would go to the bus station Change out of his uniform into civilian clothes walk down the street rob the bank Walk back change back into his uniform and literally walk back on the ship Well anybody walking in downtown San Francisco or wherever he was they're not gonna look at a naval man twice so even if they've gotten some alarm call, they're not gonna look at him and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 834.053,
      "index": 30,
      "start_time": 805.469,
      "text": " And that's not how, you know, the witnesses are going to say he was dressed anyway. And by the time they're really investigating the case, that literally that ship has sailed and he's in another port. And it was just such a brilliant yet elementary type, you know, scam that I thought I got to meet this guy. And then from our first meeting, we just became friends. And I mean, he was funny. He was smart."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 861.698,
      "index": 31,
      "start_time": 834.326,
      "text": " He would openly tell you different things and he put a lot of things in perspective. And the first time I got to meet him in person, I got up on the porch and I knocked on the door and he's in the back of the house and says, you know, come on in. And so I was joking with him that, you know, hey, you know, you're not real security conscious, you know, being funny. And he went, listen, the minute I walked out of Alcatraz, I told myself I will never be behind a locked door again."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 890.964,
      "index": 32,
      "start_time": 863.131,
      "text": " And I thought, you know what? I get it. I love that. So, you know, you learn from anybody so I can learn from a fantastic police commissioner and I can learn from an ex-criminal. They all have an expertise to share that you can use for the greater good. And he's just one of those people that I just connected with on a lot of levels. And he was a family person. He was"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 921.374,
      "index": 33,
      "start_time": 891.886,
      "text": " super devoted to his family and in a full circle moment again when I was 12 my parents took me to Alcatraz then I befriended Robert and then his daughter invited me to participate in his memorial service on Alcatraz which was an experience oh my gosh I mean I can't even tell you it was just it was overwhelming to see the devotion of his daughter and then the respect from"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 950.094,
      "index": 34,
      "start_time": 922.039,
      "text": " the Rangers. I mean, it was, it was really unbelievable. And we had, um, Michael Esslinger, who's an expert in Alcatraz. He's written tons of books. I mean, he was basically our private guide along with the Rangers. So we got to go places. The general public didn't, you know, doesn't ever get to go. So it was awesome. And you, you were saying that he, his daughter like released his ashes underneath the cell."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 978.439,
      "index": 35,
      "start_time": 950.469,
      "text": " under his cell window yes so he wanted her to you know stand there literally under his you know prison cell and you know release his ashes so he could get off that island one more time and if you knew him i mean that's part of his humor and it's also part of you know for him it was just this i'm going to be free and it was it was more of that than you know anything so it was just"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1004.735,
      "index": 36,
      "start_time": 979.292,
      "text": " It was touching. It was interesting for historical purposes. Again, if you look at America, you can track America through crime. I mean, the American mafia, you can take it all the way through the way people rob banks, the way shootings happen, the way murders happen, especially some of the big time famous things that we all know. But Alcatraz is pinnacle to me."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1032.244,
      "index": 37,
      "start_time": 1007.278,
      "text": " Uh, when, you know, when you mentioned him like dressing up and it's funny because he, it's kind of like the, the opposite of the Thomas crown affair, you know, uh, where he actually gets into a uniform that everybody sees that everybody recognizes, but it's certainly not what the police have been told to look for. Exactly. So I actually, I was locked up with a guy named Anthony Curcio who"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1052.671,
      "index": 38,
      "start_time": 1033.66,
      "text": " had robbed a"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1083.814,
      "index": 39,
      "start_time": 1054.224,
      "text": " that actually worked there that he you know never you know wouldn't wouldn't you know they knew something was wrong because it was a drop of like 350 000 or 290 000 like it was it was an excessive amount of money yeah for for those types of drops and he watched them knew the schedule he had a an outfit right he had the face mask i mean sorry you know the guys that go around and they pick up trash"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1111.425,
      "index": 40,
      "start_time": 1084.087,
      "text": " So he had a face mask, a little dust mask. He had an orange, you know, the little reflecting thing that you wear. The vest? Uh-huh. The vest. He had the little, we call them Cadillacs in prison. The long thing, so you don't have to bend over, so you pick up. And the little scooper thing you put it in. And blue jeans and a white shirt. That was his kind of, he would dress up like that and wander around while he watched the schedule."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1140.265,
      "index": 41,
      "start_time": 1112.329,
      "text": " It started with a scream inside a quiet Maryland home, a mother trying to protect the family dog and her son in the grip of a violent hallucinogenic rage. By the time it was over, she was dead, and he claimed LSD made him do it. His name, David Minor IV, and we talked to him. Listen to Invisible Choir every other week as we uncover the most haunting true crimes you've never heard of, available wherever you get your podcasts."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1178.524,
      "index": 42,
      "start_time": 1148.558,
      "text": " Sure."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1206.527,
      "index": 43,
      "start_time": 1178.933,
      "text": " Using forgeries and bogus identities, Matthew B. Cox, one of the most ingenious con men in history, built America's biggest banks out of millions. Despite numerous encounters with bank security, state and federal authorities, Cox narrowly and quite luckily"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1232.619,
      "index": 44,
      "start_time": 1206.988,
      "text": " avoided capture for years. Eventually, he topped the U.S. Secret Service's most wanted list and led the U.S. Marshals, FBI and Secret Service on a three-year chase, while jet-setting around the world with his attractive female accomplices. Cox has been declared one of the most prolific mortgage fraud con artists of all time by CNBC's American Greed."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1260.094,
      "index": 45,
      "start_time": 1233.456,
      "text": " Bloomberg Businessweek called him the mortgage industry's worst nightmare, while Dateline NBC described Cox as a gifted forger and silver-tongued liar. Playboy Magazine proclaimed his scam was real estate fraud, and he was the best. Shark in the Housing Pool is Cox's exhilarating first-person account of his stranger-than-fiction story. Available now"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1289.838,
      "index": 46,
      "start_time": 1260.503,
      "text": " And then this is where he, this is where it just became, it's like, okay, all of that's like, okay. And then Dave, you ever heard this story? No. Okay. And then he put an ad in Craigslist for the clean up Seattle foundation. And he was, they were paying $22 an hour for full-time employment. And it started."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1311.493,
      "index": 47,
      "start_time": 1290.384,
      "text": " on whatever it was Monday and 20 something people applied. He sent them all a list saying, that's fine. You have to show up at five of them showed up at one one area. Five showed up at another five showed up at another five at another. And he said, you have to show up"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1337.654,
      "index": 48,
      "start_time": 1311.834,
      "text": " with your Cadillac, with your, your vest. He sent them a link on where they could buy it with the face mask, everything. Wear blue jeans and a long sleeve shirt. And he said, that's basically your outfit. So you have to buy the stuff first, show up there that day at this time at, you know, be there between nine and nine 30. Cause that's when the truck arrived and he went, he showed up too."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1357.039,
      "index": 49,
      "start_time": 1338.336,
      "text": " Wow, so he said guys are walking around. They're like man. What should we do? He said some of the guys are actually walking like a block away picking up trash already Like they're already picking up trash and and they were told start working your supervisor will be there between nine and nine thirty He said I just did the same thing. I just kind of hung out near the parking lot and then I saw the truck"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1374.787,
      "index": 50,
      "start_time": 1358.49,
      "text": " and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1398.712,
      "index": 51,
      "start_time": 1375.538,
      "text": " in a canal and he said I just grabbed the inner tube jumped on the inner tube and the inner tube took him down he said just collided because in Seattle there's like they're kind of like little islands they have like the road closed off he said they immediately closed the bridges so they closed the bridges so nothing but police could come in he said he jumped out jumped off the inner tube ran up the street to a"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1428.729,
      "index": 52,
      "start_time": 1400.009,
      "text": " a title company, because he also was a real estate agent, walked in the front door. He said, I stripped off everything, walked in the front door. And, um, she said, I mean, as soon as I walked in, I was standing there and said, Hey, I need a copy of my closing statement from last week or from two weeks ago or whatever. They were like, Oh, okay. And he said, do you hear that? And they were like, what? And all he said, just then you started to hear the sirens or something. Wonder what happened. And they were like, yeah, I don't know."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1457.09,
      "index": 53,
      "start_time": 1429.172,
      "text": " Yeah, I do. I hear it. He said, so I knew if I ever needed an alibi, I could say I was in that thing when I heard this iron. Oh, that's brilliant. Didn't live too, too far from the place. Anyway, so, yeah, they they searched for him and searched for him and searched for him. And he's one of those guys that whenever people talk to me and say, you know, you ever think about doing anything again? I'm like, I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, what would be the perfect crime? I'm like, well,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1483.37,
      "index": 54,
      "start_time": 1457.739,
      "text": " I can think of lots of perfect crimes. They're like, well, then why don't you do something? I'm like, because I can't think of the fly in the ointment. That's what gets you messed up. Plan out some great, great crimes where you've never seen me. I haven't done anything. I was nowhere near it. You've got drop phones and you're using different computers and you never have to go in the place. You never have to do anything."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1513.643,
      "index": 55,
      "start_time": 1483.916,
      "text": " But I'm telling you, there's just, there's always that thing you cannot think of. And in his case, when he took off running, he'd never been arrested. He took his mask and he threw his mask down. He said, I didn't mean to. I was just running. He said, I thought I had kept it with me and it just fell out, but I was running so fast. I didn't, I didn't. He's like, the thing is nobody was chasing him, you know, but he was gone. Like, I mean, literally before the phone call really went out, he was already on the inner tube."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1543.848,
      "index": 56,
      "start_time": 1514.377,
      "text": " So he dropped his mask. He said, no big deal. They got my DNA. Doesn't matter. I've never been arrested. And that mask could have come from any place anywhere. Wasn't too worried about it. Um, and he said, so, you know, and they got, they've got nothing. Well, the FBI came and they reviewed, they talked to everybody and keep in mind the police show up. They started arresting these guys walking around with the, they're handcuffing all these guys. There's 20 of them walking around going, what's going on? Hey, get on the ground. So,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1564.462,
      "index": 57,
      "start_time": 1545.128,
      "text": " You know,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1593.2,
      "index": 58,
      "start_time": 1565.845,
      "text": " He said they went through it all, nothing. He said they went through it a second time when they came up empty and they saw a report of a guy, a homeless guy had walked up to a city worker who was working on like the sewer system and said, I know who robbed that bank. And they're like, the guy said, what? And he said, the guy was yelling and screaming. He had a little dog. He said, he sounded crazy. I said, man, all right, all right, get out of here. He was with the guy. He was, I did, he did make a report."
    },
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      "index": 59,
      "start_time": 1594.343,
      "text": " The guy working for the city made a little report. Hey, this guy came up to me, said he knows it, but didn't want to talk to the police or something along those lines. Okay. He goes, well, let's go try and find that guy. He said they grabbed a bunch of hamburgers. They went down where the homeless are in Seattle and said, hey, do you guys know somebody with a little dog and a beard? They said, oh, you're talking about Bobby. Bobby lives in a bus in the woods. They go there, they pull up, they're walking towards the bus."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1645.691,
      "index": 60,
      "start_time": 1620.196,
      "text": " Bobby walks out and says, man, I've been waiting weeks for you guys to, or sorry, months for you guys to show up. Is this about the bank robbery? And they said, yeah. Do you know who the guy is? They like, he's like, well, I don't know his name, but I got a license tag. Oh my God. He had come. He said, oh yeah, he came like every other day. Right. Watch the thing. And he would roll up his clothes and his mask. And I got his tag number because"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1674.548,
      "index": 61,
      "start_time": 1646.374,
      "text": " Anthony never even thought about the guy that was constantly walking around and lived in the woods. It's what you said, the fly and the ointment. How can you account for that? Right. And that's my problem. I'm like, look, you plan out this perfect crime and you did something you simply cannot account for and you end up and you have to do 20 years. So you think, look, I'm brilliant. I'm smart. I did everything correctly. You can do everything correctly."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1705.043,
      "index": 62,
      "start_time": 1675.708,
      "text": " One person, somebody else makes a mistake or somebody else happens to see something, something you couldn't account for. My whole thing came unglued, my scam, because a girl I was working with went into the title company with an ID that had her picture on it, signed for a mortgage and the person that the closing agent, the title agent looked at her ID and said, this doesn't look like you."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1735.759,
      "index": 63,
      "start_time": 1705.776,
      "text": " And she said, what do you mean? That's me. No, something's not something's off. This isn't you. Another title came agent came and looked at the picture and said, that's her. And she says, no, something's wrong. This I don't think this is you. I'm going to make some phone calls. I'll let you know. Took a good picture of her, took a good put it on there, blew it up, made a good picture of the ID, gave her ID back. She left. How am I supposed to account for the fact that that title person"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1763.985,
      "index": 64,
      "start_time": 1736.152,
      "text": " was wrong. Right. She made a mistake that unraveled my whole thing. So anyway, it's, you know, like we were talking about the, um, on Alcatraz about the guys that had escaped and you, you had said that, um, the bank, Robert, I forget his name, Robert, Robert, that we said Robert had actually known them sat down at the table with them. Yes."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1782.551,
      "index": 65,
      "start_time": 1764.258,
      "text": " So they were assigned to the same dinner table. So there's Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers. They're all there with him and they start talking about we're going to escape. And he's like, look, I was a scuba diver in the Navy. Y'all don't set a chance with these tides. They're too rough. The water's too cold."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1806.869,
      "index": 66,
      "start_time": 1783.097,
      "text": " And at Alcatraz, the one benefit they were given was hot showers. Other prisons, you might have to take a cold shower, but not Alcatraz because they didn't want them to get acclimated to cold water. So he's sitting there telling them, look, if you do this, you're going to have to leave on this side of the island at this time of day when the tide is in this, you know,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1837.483,
      "index": 67,
      "start_time": 1807.517,
      "text": " The San Francisco Chronicle published Tide Tables."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1863.131,
      "index": 68,
      "start_time": 1837.671,
      "text": " So Robert would memorize them real quick, go back to his cell, write some things down so that he got the rhythm and the pattern so that he could best tell them, this is what you're going to need to do. You're going to try to leave during this time. This is your best shot. So he was instrumental in helping them understand the best way to go about it, which was crazy to me because again, as a"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1886.596,
      "index": 69,
      "start_time": 1863.677,
      "text": " you know, eight year old and then a 12 year old and then now thinking I've actually talked to somebody. I befriended somebody that had some small part into this escape. It was just it was awesome for me. I mean, not just as a criminologist, but just anybody. I mean, that's a fascinating story, you know, and then he told me that the Birdman of Alcatraz was involved as well."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1916.834,
      "index": 70,
      "start_time": 1886.903,
      "text": " that he taught them Spanish because their goal was to get to South America and they wanted to blend in as best they could and knowing the language would only help them. So, I mean, he was just an incredible person. He a wealth of knowledge. He was funny. You know, he was open. You know, we had a great friendship. Do you think that they made it? What do you think? You know, the 12 year old me? Yes."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1944.735,
      "index": 71,
      "start_time": 1917.142,
      "text": " I think they made it. Sometimes when I'm driving in my car and I start thinking about it, I'm like, yeah, if they had it planned out like I believe they did and maybe a boat picked them up. Because there's rumors that a lot of the fishing vessels would toss out liquor and other things to get caught in the rocks for the inmates to find. So part of me wants to believe that that's why the raft was discarded because they were pulled up onto a boat."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1974.701,
      "index": 72,
      "start_time": 1945.725,
      "text": " Logically, is the water too cold and too rough and too shark-infested? Yeah. I mean, most likely. But then you're like, hey, but the family got that one Christmas card and the expert said, yes, the writing matched. And then you had the photograph. And again, the expert said that, yeah, that looks like them. So, you know, there's some evidence that they did make it. There's some evidence, obviously, that they didn't. You made a great point when you and I were talking privately that"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2002.381,
      "index": 73,
      "start_time": 1975.094,
      "text": " It's very difficult for career criminals, even if they make it to South America, to never have another issue, to never commit another crime, especially if you get there and you have no money. Right. So they would have had to do something. So did they have plastic surgery? Did they go straight? I don't know. If that if they in fact made it. But again, it's a great back then. Oh, sure."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2018.37,
      "index": 74,
      "start_time": 2002.961,
      "text": " Sure. Oh, it would be rough and it would be horrible, but you wouldn't look the same. So I guess that would be the purpose. Yeah, very, very unlikely that they went straight."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2047.841,
      "index": 75,
      "start_time": 2018.968,
      "text": " but you know who knows or who knows like like we were saying earlier like you know who knows with with identification like they could have been arrested three states over for bank rob for robin five banks had just given him a different name there's not like there was a aphis they were going to pull up their fingerprints i mean they could print them but the likelihood that they were going to compare them to these guys and they were going you know so especially back then if you had any kind of history if your identity wasn't in question then they really didn't question like maybe they lived in the county for"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2070.759,
      "index": 76,
      "start_time": 2048.063,
      "text": " Robert Shablon told me that his goal when he was still in Alcatraz before he was released, he wanted the prints on the bottom of his toes to be put on his fakers."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2079.002,
      "index": 77,
      "start_time": 2071.22,
      "text": " I don't know how that would work"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2106.323,
      "index": 78,
      "start_time": 2079.377,
      "text": " and then his fingerprints will be completely different and you had other people you know using acid or whatnot to burn them off and get rid of them and Robert's idea was to replace them which he thought was you know a smarter idea but you know when he got released he went straight he opened up a dive shop and went back to what he had been trained to do in the navy and was a scuba diver and taught scuba diving lessons the rest of his adult life. I guess if you're smart"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2136.527,
      "index": 79,
      "start_time": 2106.749,
      "text": " and you kind of get your head right when you're locked up, you can, you start to realize that you can live on very little, you know, like you, you really don't need, like, I mean, I, when I left the halfway house and I stayed in the halfway house the whole time, didn't even try and go home, didn't, not even, I'm staying here, everybody complained, they take 20% of your, like, listen, do the math. You can't live anywhere else this cheap."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2150.162,
      "index": 80,
      "start_time": 2137.056,
      "text": " you know you i just sat there did the numbers one time i said oh i'm staying here the whole time and they're feeding me so um stay there the whole time got out went and rented some rented a room from somebody you know cheap"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2179.224,
      "index": 81,
      "start_time": 2151.067,
      "text": " going cheap. I mean, I was so thrilled, but I had, you know, I had a, I had a, I had this little thing, this little magic thing here that I could watch YouTube for free. I mean, like there was so much stuff for free for free and I could, you know, I, I, all I have to do is kind of go back and if somebody cuts me off in my car and for an instant, you know, you get angry and I think I got time, like it's fine. Yeah. You sound a lot like Robert."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2205.742,
      "index": 82,
      "start_time": 2179.514,
      "text": " Robert's like I'm never locking a door again like you can't upset me, you know, he was so funny He was like look, I got a jug of vodka over there. I've got a TV. I've got a car I can go do whatever I want to do when I want to do it. He said I'll never be behind a locked door again Yeah, you know I say that all the time I like people don't realize how good it is out here. They were no idea right"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2235.418,
      "index": 83,
      "start_time": 2206.152,
      "text": " but you know like like the recidivism is high but that's because you know I think a lot of guys get out and they they do well for the guys that intend to there are other guys that I I know guys that were soon as they got out they were ready to commit crime they were that was just their life you know like that I'm gonna be in and out of prison and you know I'm gonna try and stay out but I'm not getting a job at Walmart like there's like I'm not doing it so oh sure so but then there are other guys that I think they get out and I think a couple years go by and they get frustrated and they can't buy the things they want and they"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2264.616,
      "index": 84,
      "start_time": 2235.896,
      "text": " They lose sight of the fact of how horrible prison, you know, is, and really it's not horrible. It's just, it's just so isolating. You have so little and you get out here and there's such an abundance of everything that you start to think you deserve everything. You get, start feeling entitled, you get frustrated and their go-to move is crime. Did you ever know Frank Kalata from the whole Noel gang? He was a mafia hit man."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2293.251,
      "index": 85,
      "start_time": 2265.213,
      "text": " Sounds really familiar. He's depicted in the movie casino. No, but it's funny I I've interviewed a guy that knew like the guys that were in the movie. Okay, you know well Frank and I were You know buddies too and one time are these I'm sorry. Are these guys that you've met because of your podcast? No, these are people that I've met because of my job. Oh I might be investigating a case or something and I feel like you're gonna have information that I need and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2322.125,
      "index": 86,
      "start_time": 2293.66,
      "text": " And then they just turn out to be incredible people and are, you know, interesting and, you know, they're, they are who they are. Right. But I mean, everybody has more than one side to them. But anyway, we're at lunch one day and he looks at me and he says, Hey, do you mind if I give your kids some advice? And I said, of course not, you know, please. So he looks at my daughter who's 10 and he says, never."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2352.039,
      "index": 87,
      "start_time": 2322.858,
      "text": " trust a man ever. So I thought, that's pretty good. You know, we'll talk about it a little bit more later, but you know, men can come at you with ulterior motives. So between now and, you know, 25, just keep that in mind. So then he looked right at my son and he said, and this goes to what you were talking about just a minute ago. He looks at him and he says, reading never got me paid."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2374.206,
      "index": 88,
      "start_time": 2353.217,
      "text": " so my son of course took that to mean i'm never doing homework again it's a waste of time but what he was trying to say was the education piece was never going to garner him the money that crime would and so to your point when you're talking about somebody that gets released and they're frustrated"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2397.824,
      "index": 89,
      "start_time": 2375.265,
      "text": " McDonald's is never going to give them the money that they want. That's never going to get you a Lamborghini. That's never going to get you a penthouse. It's never going to get you the Rolex. It's not right. And so your mindset has to change. And that's the biggest thing that I've seen. I mean, Robert, his mindset changed. His thing was"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2427.568,
      "index": 90,
      "start_time": 2398.353,
      "text": " I can walk out of my backyard and nobody's gonna tell me I can't go out there I can get in a car and drive so for him that was worth millions You know, but the person that is still, you know chasing that Get rich quick, you know Colin, you know, yeah. Oh like I feel like like you know, although I do I I work all the time. Mm-hmm, you know but"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2456.886,
      "index": 91,
      "start_time": 2428.439,
      "text": " And that's what I feel like it, I don't really, but I don't feel like it's working. Does that make sense? Like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not laying block. I'm not hanging drywall. I'm not on a, on a roof in Florida. I mean, you might as well, you must be a sadist if you're going to be a roofer in Florida. So, you know, I'd barely go outside during the day. I almost really never leave. I I'm actually going to steal my car because I was talking to my wife and I was like, listen,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2487.261,
      "index": 92,
      "start_time": 2457.483,
      "text": " I'm paying like 400 bucks for the car payment, another $200 for insurance. This is ridiculous. I'm like, I never drive. She drives up to the gym in the morning and back. I said, if I had to go somewhere, it would be cheaper to Uber. I could Uber eight times a month. I could leave my house twice to Tampa and back and still not pay $600. Correct. Five or $600, whatever it comes to."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2517.585,
      "index": 93,
      "start_time": 2488.268,
      "text": " Anyway, but yeah, I basically never leave the house like I do this. You know, I write, I write articles, I do research articles. And, you know, I paint, like, think about what I do. Yes, I talk to people. Yeah. You know, I talk to people, I write stories. And you know, I paint, like, honestly, it really like, do you really have a job?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2542.995,
      "index": 94,
      "start_time": 2518.285,
      "text": " I mean, I make my own schedule, right? It's, it's, it's really like the idea that I was, and anybody who's ever watched my show has probably heard me say this 30 times. The fact that, you know, I think every time I start to get cocky or arrogant, I kind of remind myself like, bro, five years ago, you were laying in a bunk bed in prison, thinking to yourself, how am I going to make a living?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2569.548,
      "index": 95,
      "start_time": 2543.814,
      "text": " Like I was telling myself, you're going to get a job at McDonald's and you're going to work your way to another job that you like. And maybe you'll sell used cars. You're going to live in someone's spare room and you're going to be happy. You're going to be thankful. So, you know, and I would tell myself that. And so the idea that I'm making a living goofing off. My wife says, you live a cat's life."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2597.619,
      "index": 96,
      "start_time": 2569.957,
      "text": " You take naps. You sit on the couch. And I'm like, that's what you think I do during the day? She's like, I do. I do. That is awesome. But your story is inspired. And I think that's why it's so important. But it's the truth. If you think about five years ago, you're laying in that cot. And people think, oh, when you get out, you're never going to be able to find anything. Your life's going to be crap. It's going to be whatever. And you have people telling you,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2614.616,
      "index": 97,
      "start_time": 2598.251,
      "text": " Why don't you try this? Why don't you go back? Why don't you pull off the perfect job? I mean, really, thanks for the help, folks, because you're trying to get me pinched again. Like why in the world? But what you're telling people is you don't have to have, you know, the"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2637.602,
      "index": 98,
      "start_time": 2615.128,
      "text": " Corner office, you don't have to bust rods. You don't have to be laying tar on a roof. Good God almighty I mean, I can't think of anything worse in Florida, right? Yeah, I mean I can't and I know like our dad we would be driving and he would see somebody doing that type of job and all he would say is Girls do your homework?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2666.305,
      "index": 99,
      "start_time": 2638.063,
      "text": " I mean that's hard work you know and again I think for people that are listening to you that are maybe going to get out in six months or a year okay there are things you can do and I think that's important for people to hear I do yeah I you know you say the inspiration thing I hear the inspiration all the time I get emails from guys saying how inspirational my story is I'm like and I'm always like I don't I never once"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2696.425,
      "index": 100,
      "start_time": 2666.698,
      "text": " try to be inspirational. I interview guys that went to prison, got out of prison, and they'll sit here and they'll talk about, they'll, they'll, they'll preach, inspire, like preach, like try, it's so obvious that they're trying to be, you know, now I, I, I, I, it's all about the kids now. And it's all, it's like, you know, letting them know not to do this. And I'm like, all right, all right, stop. It's so, I just feel like it's disingenuous. It's like, stop. That's why you work. You're not trying."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2723.729,
      "index": 101,
      "start_time": 2696.647,
      "text": " Yeah, I'm so I'm like, but I keep getting these guys that come, but I also get the guys that that send me the emails that say, bro, like I'll give you however much money you want. If you'll just tell me how to do this, how to do that, help me set it up, help me do this. And I'm always like, are you serious? Like you do understand that if you go out right now and just do anything. The feds are just going to add my name to the indictment."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2739.667,
      "index": 102,
      "start_time": 2725.247,
      "text": " I mean,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2769.701,
      "index": 103,
      "start_time": 2740.145,
      "text": " that's it then even if i said hey you know what i'm i'm going to trial wow what a mistake that is i can't take the stand because you're like oh you took the oh by the way jury now that he's taking the stand we're gonna list all the things he's been right you know don't convict me again even if there's no new evidence and he was talking to this guy who got caught doing the same thing he he was doing the jury even if i was on the jury i'd be like yeah bro i i don't"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2788.643,
      "index": 104,
      "start_time": 2770.247,
      "text": " You sound like my husband. My husband laughs. I've got plenty of prosecutors and judges and special agents in my phone, but I also have the Frank Calatas of the world and Robert Chablan, Johnny Lee Cleary."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2806.51,
      "index": 105,
      "start_time": 2788.951,
      "text": " And he says, what if something legitimately happens to you and they go through your phone and you've had contact with a hitman, you've had contact with this person in a hate group, you've had contact with this person, you know. But again, as they say, game recognizes game."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2836.749,
      "index": 106,
      "start_time": 2807.108,
      "text": " You know, a con man is going to look at you and understand. A prosecutor is going to look at you and understand. So, you know, part of me, again, you are inspirational. And I think your story is important. And it's important for both sides, because I have people that, you know, sometimes give me a hard time. Like, how can you possibly say this criminal is your friend? Because he was right. You know, he was good to me. He was funny. He was engaging. He taught me a lot."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2859.275,
      "index": 107,
      "start_time": 2837.073,
      "text": " I mean, that's a good friend. And yeah, he had a past but you know, for the grace of God, right? Like I started somewhat as a con artist, I'll tell you a story, you'll enjoy this. So I saw in a weekly reader, where if you had chinchillas, you could make 1000s of dollars. And that seemed like a"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2888.302,
      "index": 108,
      "start_time": 2859.804,
      "text": " get rich quick, which sounded good to me. I didn't want to work hard. I mean, I was, you know, six or seven years old. So I called the one eight hundred number and I wanted to order the whole thing. Give me the chinchillas, the incubators, the lights. I need it all because I'm going to be super rich. So then they said, OK, what credit card? And I was like, well, I don't know anything about a credit card. And she goes, well, we can send it COD. And I said, well, what's that? And she goes, that's cash on delivery."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2906.493,
      "index": 109,
      "start_time": 2889.019,
      "text": " Let's do that. So we're, you know, it's six to eight weeks. Well, you know, when you're that little, that might as well be two years. I mean, I basically forgot about doing it. All of a sudden, there's a knock at our door one Saturday, and this person is delivering live animals is stamped on the crate."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2933.439,
      "index": 110,
      "start_time": 2907.125,
      "text": " and my dad is like what and they're like these are the chinchillas and incubators and all the wires and the lights and the feed and you know you owe us whatever it was i don't remember if it's 175 dollars or what it was but at the time you know in 1970 it was a ton of money and my dad's like you can take these things right home back you know i'm not paying you for this stuff well i'm standing there you're missing the opportunity of a lifetime"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2964.138,
      "index": 111,
      "start_time": 2935.469,
      "text": " Bent is the story of John Jay Boziak's phenomenal life of crime."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2991.203,
      "index": 112,
      "start_time": 2964.838,
      "text": " Inked from head to toe, with an addiction to strippers and fast Cadillacs, Boziak was not your typical computer geek. He was, however, one of the most cunning scammers, counterfeiters, identity thieves, and escape artists alive, and a major thorn in the side of the US Secret Service as they fought a war on cybercrime. With a savant-like ability to circumvent banking security and stay one step ahead of law enforcement,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3018.763,
      "index": 113,
      "start_time": 2991.664,
      "text": " Boziak made millions of dollars in the international cyber underworld with the help of the Chinese and the Russians. Then, leaving nothing but a John Doe warrant and a cleaned out bank account in his wake, he vanished. Boziak's stranger than fiction tale of ingenious scams and impossible escapes, of brazen run-ins with the law and secret desires to straighten out and settle down, makes his story a true crime con game that will keep you guessing."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3049.138,
      "index": 114,
      "start_time": 3019.343,
      "text": " how a homeless team became one of the cybercrime industry's most prolific counterfeiters available now on amazon and audible you know there's other things that i tried i saw a truck and it said pine straw for sale our yard is eight up with pine straw so if you're gonna buy it right and then i went to my neighbors who were elderly and i said you know can i rake your yard they're like sure and i'm like suckers"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3074.65,
      "index": 115,
      "start_time": 3049.633,
      "text": " People pay for this well again, my dad had to explain honey You're not gonna make any money. I mean you can break every yard in this community, you know So anyway, he uh, it's he's the reason I'm still broke. I mean, that's just it so So we all have a little con artists, you know what I mean, yeah"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3104.787,
      "index": 116,
      "start_time": 3075.196,
      "text": " And I think we all we all have good we all have a little maybe not so good but people are mostly good So, okay, so I don't know how we got on top it so when did you start Okay, what when did you this is we're 50 minutes into this one? Okay, there's 25 on the other one. How did you?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3129.002,
      "index": 117,
      "start_time": 3105.538,
      "text": " Always okay, you know again, I read everything I could and When I was 18 the very first criminal justice gig I guess that I ever had I was hired to be a store detective at a Large department store called riches at 18. Yeah, because they wouldn't suspect me. It was great. I had a great time learned a ton and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3147.346,
      "index": 118,
      "start_time": 3129.565,
      "text": " From there, I worked at the Greater Eureka Crisis Center because they would actually allow me to volunteer there at 18, and I could actually interview victims. And I worked directly with a gentleman by the name of Detective Black. He was extraordinary to me."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3174.138,
      "index": 119,
      "start_time": 3147.841,
      "text": " He taught me how to interview. He taught me how to write a report. And there were often times that I was able to get information from the victim that he was not able to. So that was just laying the groundwork for what was to come. And then as I worked through college, I had different internships. I had one with the FBI, one with the Secret Service. I just had a great time. And then my first real job was with the Crime Commission. And I just never looked back."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3197.244,
      "index": 120,
      "start_time": 3174.582,
      "text": " and this year is my 40th year doing something in criminal justice. Okay. Did you ever work for like the, who do you, who do you work for now? You said you're currently, I work for a metropolitan Atlanta police department and I'm their crime scene investigator. Okay. How long do you work there? I've been there eight years this week, actually. Okay."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3217.142,
      "index": 121,
      "start_time": 3197.602,
      "text": " Do you ever work for the Sheriff's Department? I worked for the Fulton County Sheriff's Department for eight years in special ops. I worked for the Crime Commission. I worked as a probation officer. I've done a lot of really interesting. I've had a really lucky career when I was with the Crime Commission. I was assigned to the Major Case Division."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3245.418,
      "index": 122,
      "start_time": 3217.739,
      "text": " and we had a prosecutor there that was just a spitfire and the first time I ever met the prosecutor was about 2.45 in the morning at a crime scene and this little sports car comes flying up and this person jumps out and they're like, what do you got we have? What can I do to help? And I'm like, what in the world is that? I mean, I had never seen anything like it. I had never seen at that time a prosecutor outside the courthouse."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3263.183,
      "index": 123,
      "start_time": 3245.657,
      "text": " They always stayed in the ivory tower, as it were, and that prosecutor turned out to be Nancy Grace. Oh my God. So, you know, I've had a lot of luck. I mean, I was in charge of the Olympic Crisis Response Team, which nobody would have ever cared anything about except we had a bomb."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3289.974,
      "index": 124,
      "start_time": 3263.899,
      "text": " And then that matriculated into training with the State Department and I got to train every single Olympic crisis response team from then on. So, you know, luck is luck is good. So Nancy Grace, I wrote a story about a guy named Frank Amadeo. Frank Amadeo is a the short version is he's a he's a rapid cycling"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3319.053,
      "index": 125,
      "start_time": 3290.435,
      "text": " bipolar with features of schizophrenia. He's a lawyer and he was a tax attorney in Atlanta when Nancy grace was, um, was the, uh, the, I guess the attorney, the estate attorney, estate attorney, or she was just the attorney. Okay. Right. And so he ended up having a, uh, a bout of depression for like a couple of weeks, like two, three weeks where he couldn't get out of bed."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3332.841,
      "index": 126,
      "start_time": 3319.889,
      "text": " And this would happen every few years to him. So he was basically the one running. He had two partners, but they were pretty much useless in this"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3362.91,
      "index": 127,
      "start_time": 3333.268,
      "text": " It was a, a tax attorney, kind of like H and R block, but for bankruptcy. Okay. I keep saying tax for, for bankruptcy. Sorry. He was, he wasn't a tax attorney. He was a bankruptcy attorney. Sorry. And they were kind of turning, trying to do like a mill, right? They're just running them through. Well, anyway, he was the one who was basically doing most of the work. So when he disappears for two weeks, he was in the hospital for like a week and then he wouldn't get out of bed at his house. So by the time he shows back up this whole, everything's falling apart. Anyway,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3377.756,
      "index": 128,
      "start_time": 3363.217,
      "text": " They ended up pilfering"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3400.64,
      "index": 129,
      "start_time": 3378.08,
      "text": " He ended up getting $30,000 of it but didn't realize how they were paying him. I forget exactly what the story was. But in the end, the place closed. There were a lot of unresolved bankruptcies. And Nancy Grace came in and investigated the entire thing and tried to get Frank indicted."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3428.302,
      "index": 130,
      "start_time": 3400.947,
      "text": " held a couple of grand juries, but they wouldn't indict because I guess he wasn't really on the accounts and even, you know, so wasn't sure. So, but she was so upset about it. She went to the U S attorney and gave him all the information and the U S attorney was able to indict him. And, uh, so that's, that's kind of, you know, that's my Nancy gray story. I'm sure you have hundreds way better than that, but"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3458.37,
      "index": 131,
      "start_time": 3428.729,
      "text": " She actually made an attempt to indict this guy and then when she was so frustrated and irritated that she she couldn't indict if she's like Oh, well, I got you and she went gave it because you know the US Attorney obviously the feds have a much more ability to on a lot of their a lot of the federal laws I had never heard that story. I don't know him It sounds sad all the way around But I will tell you she comes from a place being a victim of crime and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3486.715,
      "index": 132,
      "start_time": 3459.377,
      "text": " That if she sees victimization in any way, financial, physical, emotional, she doesn't tend to let loose of it. And I tell people a lot that if you had a child missing, would you want her own it? Right. And a hundred percent of the time, people say yes, if it's their child, because she's not going to turn loose. She's not going to stop arguing. She's not going to stop calling people out."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3512.039,
      "index": 133,
      "start_time": 3487.312,
      "text": " And she's got such a heart. I mean, I know her know her. I just told you that's how we met. But I mean, we, you know, have maintained our friendship. And I will I will tell you just one story. And I don't think she would care if I told this. But like back in the day, she took files home. So if you ever went to her house, she would have these files sometimes spread out."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3542.995,
      "index": 134,
      "start_time": 3513.268,
      "text": " and we were there one night talking about a case and she literally touched every single file and prayed over it. She prayed for the officer, she prayed for the judge, she prayed for the victim, she prayed for herself. You know, please let me do the right thing, let everybody do the right thing and let there be justice. And that's one of those things that if you don't, if you only know the TV persona, you sometimes think, man, she's just, you know, a bulldog. But then when you think about"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3571.152,
      "index": 135,
      "start_time": 3543.592,
      "text": " You know, she was so close to being married, and she was so happy, and she was so young, and she was innocent. I mean, you're talking about a girl from Macon, Georgia, that went to college at Valdosta State, that had her whole world, not flipped upside down, but ripped apart, that instead of just going home and not being able to get out of the bed, decided, okay, my fiance was murdered. He was a baseball star."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3578.558,
      "index": 136,
      "start_time": 3571.527,
      "text": " And I was going to be an English teacher. Well, now I'm going to go to law school and I'm going to make sure this doesn't happen to another person."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3610.316,
      "index": 137,
      "start_time": 3580.64,
      "text": " So right. Well, everybody's hard on, on law enforcement, you know, until, until someone breaks in their house where they're attacked or they need them. And then it's defund the police until, until my there, you know, my neighborhood is overridden with crime. And then it's where the police, it's like, well, she were at that protest last month. Um, so yeah. Uh, so yeah, I can see her, uh,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3638.029,
      "index": 138,
      "start_time": 3611.305,
      "text": " I mean, I could see wanting that prosecutor after he was any even Frank where I wrote, I wrote a story on him and we were incarcerated together and he was like, he's like, she had two grand jury or two grand juries. Two. Yeah, she couldn't indict me too. And he was like, she just wouldn't let it go. Well, that's her. You got indicted. He's like, I didn't even know. I didn't know anything about it. Right. But"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3664.07,
      "index": 139,
      "start_time": 3638.251,
      "text": " But anyway, yeah, he's a he was he's an interesting character Yeah, you you'd have a field day with him I mean, he's actually incarcerated and I wrote a story About him by the way, it's called it since they actually wrote a book, but I wrote a synopsis and a book I expanded the synopsis"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3683.558,
      "index": 140,
      "start_time": 3664.855,
      "text": " You know, once I got out of prison, but I wrote a synopsis in prison, it's probably 12 or 1300 words, maybe maybe 1400 words. And it's on my website, if you if you ever want to read it, if you don't want to, I have an audio version. Anyway, he since he was in his teens,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3708.2,
      "index": 141,
      "start_time": 3684.275,
      "text": " He has believed that God is talking to him and he is preordained to be emperor of the world. Now remember, he's got features of schizophrenia. Goes to college, gets a degree, very smart, gets a law degree, gets out, starts this bankruptcy thing, bankruptcy kind of firm,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3736.015,
      "index": 142,
      "start_time": 3708.575,
      "text": " And it ends up, you know, failing after whatever, five, six years. He then becomes a venture capitalist. He then gets indicted. He goes to, goes to a camp for like a year, gets out. He then gets out of that, becomes a venture, sorry, becomes a venture cap, venture capitalist, puts together a massive, massive company, starts raising money for his company, which is ultimately going to basically"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3763.797,
      "index": 143,
      "start_time": 3736.34,
      "text": " You know, it's like Spectre, he is expecting it to dominate, economically dominate the US and then spread throughout all continents. And, and, and, you know, and he's in listen, he also has a military wing, like he's got his own private military, they've got contracts in, in, in Afghanistan, he's, it's, you know, it's, it's a massive operation, I've got pictures of him with Bush,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3788.37,
      "index": 144,
      "start_time": 3764.258,
      "text": " At the White House and I don't mean like a photo op I mean like they're sitting in the Roosevelt room like you know a group of people He went he would spot help sponsor a NATO summit he It's just a massive massive Undertaking this company ultimately he ends up He's doing most of this by the way by embezzling money"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3813.353,
      "index": 145,
      "start_time": 3789.531,
      "text": " 200 million."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3835.572,
      "index": 146,
      "start_time": 3813.575,
      "text": " Yeah, it's it's oh listen and if you read the story it's insane like he would the things he was telling me and of course I would order the Freedom of Information Act and I'd order the transcripts and and I get the transcripts and the Freedom of Information Act and you've got you've got you know FBI reports where they're talking about how he's trying to buy you know airplane he's trying to buy like"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3866.22,
      "index": 147,
      "start_time": 3836.34,
      "text": " F-16s and F-15s, he's negotiating contracts to buy these used, you know, they gut them, they take all the electronics out. You can still buy the planes. He's talking about putting them in Cyprus, you know, he wants to buy, you know, 25 of them. He backed a coup in the Congo. There's a documentary about that. Yeah. Anyway, he's he's fascinating. But so back to you, can I ask you, do you can you"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3895.776,
      "index": 148,
      "start_time": 3867.022,
      "text": " Do you have any cold cases that are interesting to you that you would that you could talk about? Absolutely. I think one that I will talk about right now is Melissa Wolfenberger. And the reason I'll talk to you about her is because we've been having a thing this whole conversation, but Melissa went missing. And she was married and her mother could not get any police department"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3922.363,
      "index": 149,
      "start_time": 3896.186,
      "text": " to take a missing persons report because she's married she's grown and if she doesn't want to have contact with you she doesn't have to have contact with you and if she wants to disappear or run away that's not illegal but her mom kept saying something's not right she wouldn't have just left her children she wouldn't you know stop having contact with me like even if she wanted to leave her husband that's one thing but she wouldn't abandon her family"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3947.381,
      "index": 150,
      "start_time": 3923.012,
      "text": " So this goes on a while and finally she badgers her own police department enough or finally a detective says, fine, I will take a report that she's missing, but I can't investigate it. She didn't live in our jurisdiction. There's no sign of a crime at all, but I will take it for paper trail. Well, she went to Atlanta police and then said the same thing. She's missing."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3975.367,
      "index": 151,
      "start_time": 3948.148,
      "text": " And Atlanta said, OK, since they've taken a police report that she's missing, we'll do the same thing. But that's as far as we can go. We've been by the house. There's no sign of anything. They've moved away is what it looks like. Fast forward. A driver delivering for UPS sees a ripped garbage bag and a skull in the middle of the street. He stops. The skull is misidentified as a Caucasian male."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4005.572,
      "index": 152,
      "start_time": 3976.049,
      "text": " So it sits on a shelf because it's not pertaining to Melissa. Right. Fast forward again, months later, that was April. The skull was found in June. Four more trash bags were found, each containing an arm or a leg. Some dental records were done, comes back to be Melissa. Now, this has been going on for years and years. The person that has been helping me understand the crime"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4034.258,
      "index": 153,
      "start_time": 4006.118,
      "text": " Understand the players understand what law enforcement could and could not do And most importantly understand possibly the number one suspect is her father Her father. I thought you were saying I thought you were to say her husband No, no, he's Probably on the suspect list, but the person that's helping me understand everything who's literally helping me. Okay on the cape is her father and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4063.319,
      "index": 154,
      "start_time": 4034.957,
      "text": " Who is the Flint River killer? So we've been communicating via letter because he's in prison. So again, it's one of those things who understands a killer better than another killer, who understands these principal players better than him, who understands who's probably got a beef with him, who wanted retribution or who had a background that was indicative of somebody that might at one point snap possibly."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4092.483,
      "index": 155,
      "start_time": 4063.746,
      "text": " so again everybody has a gift your story is helping people hopefully my background can help people nancy grace's background is helping people well the flit river killer his background prayerfully is helping people and in this particular instant his own daughter wow what what how insane is that that his own daughter ends up getting murdered listen matt it's the only"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4119.991,
      "index": 156,
      "start_time": 4092.927,
      "text": " case in history that I can find where a serial killer becomes a true victim of crime, meaning somebody in his immediate family is murdered. Right. And then he reaches out to law enforcement for help because the detective that originally arrested him for his murders, he asked when she was still missing, can you find her? He said, you caught me after 25 years. Can you find my daughter?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4149.991,
      "index": 157,
      "start_time": 4120.503,
      "text": " So it's an incredible story. Um, and it's, it's one of those that I think will be in my career. It's going to be the only one like it. It's the only one in history like it. But again, sometimes people in prison have the information you need. Yeah. What a, what a great, if there was an actual resolution, wouldn't that be, that would be just, what a, what a phenomenally"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4168.097,
      "index": 158,
      "start_time": 4150.845,
      "text": " unique story. Bizarre. That's a great thing about true crime. You know how many times I've been writing someone's story or interviewing them and you just look up and you go, what? Exactly."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4194.974,
      "index": 159,
      "start_time": 4169.121,
      "text": " Come up with it. Like this sounds so insane. Yeah, it's almost fake. Like absolutely Yeah, if I sat down and was watching some show and this was the premise I'd be like, ah, come on never gonna happen Never gonna happen like with Robert Shablon. I was the only person in law enforcement He would fool with when he would even go back to Alcatraz. He didn't want to shake hands with the old guards and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4220.026,
      "index": 160,
      "start_time": 4195.35,
      "text": " He would openly tell you, I don't have any use for anybody in law enforcement. We are not friends. I mean, it was literally an us versus them in his life. So I get that. But when you again, you've got somebody that they chose the path they chose for whatever reason. But now, you know, just like Nancy Grace, Nancy was on one path and it got flipped."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4250.401,
      "index": 161,
      "start_time": 4220.93,
      "text": " You know Carl was on one path and it got flipped. So at this point you need the help of the very people you can't stand You know, it's all good and then maybe prayerfully we can see each other a little different I It's it's funny. I was gonna say how small the world is and how you know, it's I had I wrote a story about a guy whose best friend had"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4280.794,
      "index": 162,
      "start_time": 4251.032,
      "text": " He had overdosed, you know, like everybody thought it was an overdose, but everybody didn't think it was over. The police said it was an overdose. He and everybody else was like, it's not an overdose. This doesn't make sense. They're like, oh, well, then he killed himself. They're like, he didn't kill himself. And then a year or two later, the guy who wrote the story about his name's Vitaly, Joseph Vitaly, he gets arrested and he's in the U.S. Marshals holdover waiting to be sentenced."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4308.78,
      "index": 163,
      "start_time": 4281.271,
      "text": " and he befriends or a guy kind of starts talking to him befriends him and that guy ends up he's like oh what do you do oh geez i'm a stockbroker i i raise venture capital and do this no okay they have a little conversation he's like oh i knew a stockbroker oh you did he's like oh yeah yeah yeah you know we and he starts telling him about how they kind of befriended him and we're hanging out and we're partying and doing drugs because a lot of people this is in"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4329.258,
      "index": 164,
      "start_time": 4309.104,
      "text": " in a palm beach palm beach is notorious for all these it listens half the guys in palm beach are con artists so he's down there and you know they're in in that industry a lot of drugs a lot of you know so the guy ends up talking about him talking when he said and i start to realize that he's talking about my buddy"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4340.828,
      "index": 165,
      "start_time": 4329.65,
      "text": " Hmm and he you know, so I kind of keep saying oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, oh, do you know so and so? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so we have a whole conversation the guy ends up telling him. Yeah that guy owed"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4367.961,
      "index": 166,
      "start_time": 4341.664,
      "text": " this girl that I used to mess with a lot of money. He said, I ended up having to do them in and he's like, he's like, really? Like he doesn't know he knows him. He never said, I know that guy. Wow. And he ends up saying that he, and he goes, how did you do it? He said, I gave him a hot shot. And he was like, when he told him, he said, I didn't know what that was. He's like a hot shot. He's like, yeah, yeah, you know, I such and such. And you know, I did this. He's like, then we went through the house. We got like 30 grand. We,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4395.009,
      "index": 167,
      "start_time": 4368.985,
      "text": " Now keep in mind too, his girlfriend, his fiance, when they found the body, she of course immediately said, you understand, he was murdered. The house was robbed. We're missing 30,000 in cash. We're missing, and she listed all of these items. And the problem was, is he was doing drugs. He did die of a drug overdose. So the police looked at it twice and they said, you know, look, I get it, but the guy's not talking."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4421.152,
      "index": 168,
      "start_time": 4395.555,
      "text": " You know, by the way, he was back in for robbing banks. He'd gotten out of prison, like we got out of prison in the halfway house, started robbing banks, got picked up again. In the meantime, he kills this guy gets picked up again, and he's waiting sentencing what happens to be the guy's best best friend or good friend if you have a best friend when you're in your 30s. Yeah, so I mean, what a small like those, that's one of those things that you just"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4449.138,
      "index": 169,
      "start_time": 4421.544,
      "text": " You couldn't. That's right. Those coincidences that happen, you go, how? That's right. How odd is that? What a small world. It is a small world. And the guy would say something. Of course, he's saying something because he's thinking, what are the chances of this guy? Yeah, nobody is just some guy in prison. We're both waiting like he doesn't know enough. He said, but I did know I knew all the people that he knew. I knew who it was. He has even mentioned the name of his subdivision."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4479.548,
      "index": 170,
      "start_time": 4449.787,
      "text": " Specifically told in the name of the subdivision. I mean like he was naming off all of these things anyway Crazy. Yeah, it's uh, it's It's an odd odd world. So yeah, I love true crime. It's those types of things that you go That's that's bizarre. There's so many bizarre things boy that that story you that's amazing The that's got to be a resolution. You need to figure that one out and we're hoping Mm-hmm"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4501.22,
      "index": 171,
      "start_time": 4480.009,
      "text": " I'll text you when I have an update for sure. And you have a podcast, right? I do. It's called Zone 7. What do you talk about on the podcast? Cold cases that we've worked and Zone 7 came about because in the Atlanta Police Department, there's six police zones. So back in the day before cell phones,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4531.527,
      "index": 172,
      "start_time": 4501.698,
      "text": " If we wanted to all meet afterwards, you just couldn't go over the radio and say, hey, everybody, we're going to meet at the bar tonight. So we would say, let's 5-9 at Zone 7 after shift. So that way it would be acceptable. And then Zone 7 kind of became this group of people that you trust, that have your back, that are not going to do harm to you by talking about you or setting you up or any of that kind of stuff. The people you can literally go to,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4559.804,
      "index": 173,
      "start_time": 4532.056,
      "text": " Not unlike a criminal organization, you want those people that are going to tell you the truth, that are going to protect you, that are going to not talk crap about you when you're not in the room, the people that only want to help you, whether it's on a case or further your career or whatever. So your Zone 7 is pretty small, but it's a powerful group. So that's why I call it Zone 7, because the people that I have as my guest are people that are in my Zone 7."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4587.978,
      "index": 174,
      "start_time": 4560.811,
      "text": " Okay. So how many people are, is it just, are you the host or are there other people involved? I'm the host and I bring people in because they have something to do with the case we're talking about. They either have an expertise in whatever it is or they helped me or we searched the scene together. There's some reason they're there and that'll come out during the, you know, interview. Okay. How often do you, uh, do you post? Like how long have you been doing it?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4615.452,
      "index": 175,
      "start_time": 4588.336,
      "text": " I've only been doing it six months yesterday and I post on Wednesdays once a week. Okay. And is it on YouTube? No, it's just, you know, I hard and Spotify, that sort of thing. You got to put it on YouTube. You got to get that. You got to get the stream yard thing. Learn how to do that. I figure it out. I can't get a phone when I got out."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4645.845,
      "index": 176,
      "start_time": 4618.404,
      "text": " Clear. Roger that. There was no iPhone. There were no iPhones when I went to prison. When I went to prison, YouTube had been out for like a year. I'd never been on it that I know of that I could recall. Facebook had been out for like a year. I was on the run and I remember my girlfriend said, Hey, do you want to get a Facebook page? There's this thing, Facebook. People are moving from MySpace to Facebook. And I was like, I don't think that's a good idea. I'm wanted. It's probably not a good idea. I don't know."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4676.015,
      "index": 177,
      "start_time": 4646.408,
      "text": " I'm not an expert on being wanted, but it feels like a bad idea. It does feel like a bad idea. I'm not an expert. YouTube had just come out. You weren't readily watching it. People weren't seeing it. I don't ever recall knowing what it was, but I do know when I looked back on it, it was out, but I don't really recall hearing about it until I was years into prison."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4705.179,
      "index": 178,
      "start_time": 4677.227,
      "text": " And then podcast wasn't a thing because that's a new word that wasn't even invented into like 2008 or nine or 10 or something. It was like they put two words together. And then I would meet guys, iPhones didn't come out till like 2009. So I was already locked up like three years. I remember there was a guy one time telling me he, cause he was there for like almost like a half a million to a million dollars in an iPhone crimes. He would, he would,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4730.725,
      "index": 179,
      "start_time": 4706.169,
      "text": " Get he would get a corporation have people go in and get corporate accounts like they'd give him like nine iPhones on corporate accounts It didn't have to have a they didn't run the credit. Nothing was just corporation And so they get the phone didn't go on there on their credit or anything So they give him the phone for nothing So they get like nine and he has send people in over and over and then he'd sell the fuck He'd pull out the SIM cards or whatever and then he he'd sell the phones and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4759.991,
      "index": 180,
      "start_time": 4731.015,
      "text": " Wow, I'd been locked up at that point like 10 years. Yes. He was like, oh wow, bro. How long you been in here?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4786.988,
      "index": 181,
      "start_time": 4762.073,
      "text": " Of course, he's a kid. He's like in his late 20s. So he's like, you know, it was always the haven't they always existed? Like, no, no. Yeah, that's crazy. But yeah, it's uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, there was a so if I can figure out how phones work and iPhones and YouTube and all that guy, come on, Roger that you you really have. I'm on it today."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4817.159,
      "index": 182,
      "start_time": 4787.415,
      "text": " You know, that's a joke. I love the guys who are like, you know, you know, well, I'm not really a techie person. Stop it. Stop. I'm doing it today. I will start learning. Yeah, I was a YouTube. You can look anything up. I can say anything to YouTube and somebody's made a video. There's fifteen hundred videos on anything that I ask it. Yep. I learned how to edit and do everything on YouTube. Nobody. No, you're right."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4846.374,
      "index": 183,
      "start_time": 4817.739,
      "text": " Read a manual. I just said, you know Final Cut Pro How do you stack videos and there's like fifteen hundred of them? I'm like, yes. Well, alright I know you spent way more time than then you expect it to spend I've enjoyed every second of it Matt. Absolutely And listen when you come to Atlanta next week call me I would love for you to come by and I'll show you the police station give you a ride We'll have some fun. What's funny? I'm"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4874.258,
      "index": 184,
      "start_time": 4846.869,
      "text": " be nice to ride in the front of the police car. Absolutely. You know, as funny as like when you first said Atlanta, I thought my first thought was I stole $400,000 in Atlanta. That was the first place when, when the FBI showed up, my office, the first place I went to in Alpharetta, Georgia, Alpharetta, Alpharetta. I rented some somebody's house that was worth about 200,000. I went down to Fulton County."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4903.558,
      "index": 185,
      "start_time": 4874.804,
      "text": " Satisfied the two loans he had on his house made a fake ID in his name Name was Michael Shanahan, and then I called three hard-money lenders three or four There's three three hard-money lenders had him come out to the house and borrowed all three mortgages at the same time and borrowed like roughly four hundred thousand dollars Deposited the money into a bunch of banks pulled the money out in cash then took off and Then the Secret Service showed up, you know"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4926.681,
      "index": 186,
      "start_time": 4903.951,
      "text": " I know Andrea"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4950.265,
      "index": 187,
      "start_time": 4927.517,
      "text": " She was always very nice. Oh, yeah, she's very nice. She used to be with the Cobb County DA's office when I was there. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, she, um, she was interviewed by American Greed when they did an episode. Yeah. Oh, yeah, she's nice. You know, everybody's always talks about the FBI. I was like, the FBI, they were all mean."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 4980.247,
      "index": 188,
      "start_time": 4951.118,
      "text": " My involvement with the Secret Service has always been the same. Very professional, very nice. They understand exactly what they're there to do and it's all good. There's no arrogance. I've worked with other agencies. They can be a little"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 5006.971,
      "index": 189,
      "start_time": 4981.084,
      "text": " I appreciate this. This has been fabulous. Wonderful."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 5015.691,
      "index": 190,
      "start_time": 5007.79,
      "text": " Yeah, definitely I'm actually I think I'm going to Atlanta again in August also because I'm there's a cybercrime"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 5045.401,
      "index": 191,
      "start_time": 5016.084,
      "text": " I appreciate you guys watching. Do me a favor, hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this. Check out the description box for zone 7. Matt goes over cold cases with other detectives and I really appreciate you guys watching. Leave me a comment in the comment section."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 5054.548,
      "index": 192,
      "start_time": 5045.401,
      "text": " And thanks for checking out the podcast. See you."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 5082.91,
      "index": 193,
      "start_time": 5058.251,
      "text": " It started with a scream inside a quiet Maryland home."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 5107.944,
      "index": 194,
      "start_time": 5083.507,
      "text": " A mother trying to protect the family dog and her son in the grip of a violent hallucinogenic rage. By the time it was over, she was dead, and he claimed LSD made him do it. His name, David Minor IV, and we talked to him. Listen to Invisible Choir every other week as we uncover the most haunting true crimes you've never heard of, available wherever you get your podcasts."
    }
  ]
}