UFOs and Theories of Everything | Martin Willis

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      "text": " The Economist covers math, physics, philosophy, and AI in a manner that shows how different countries perceive developments and how they impact markets. They recently published a piece on China's new neutrino detector. They cover extending life via mitochondrial transplants, creating an entirely new field of medicine. But it's also not just science they analyze."
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      "text": " Culture, they analyze finance, economics, business, international affairs across every region. I'm particularly liking their new insider feature. It was just launched this month. It gives you, it gives me, a front row access to The Economist's internal editorial debates."
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      "text": " Where senior editors argue through the news with world leaders and policy makers in twice weekly long format shows. Basically an extremely high quality podcast. Whether it's scientific innovation or shifting global politics, The Economist provides comprehensive coverage beyond headlines. As a toe listener, you get a special discount. Head over to economist.com slash TOE to subscribe. That's economist.com slash TOE for your discount."
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      "text": " I think free will is a word like consciousness where it's unclear how to explicitly define it, but it does have a meaning. We mean something when we say it. It just seems that our rational attempts to investigate it are like us trying to grab water and it just falls through our hands. It's easy to conclude that it's an illusion."
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      "text": " This is an episode from the Martin Willis podcast where Martin Willis interviewed me on the topic of UFOs, superposition and entanglement, as well as thoughts on artificial intelligence and consciousness."
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      "text": " from a theoretical physics perspective, but as well as exploring the role consciousness has to the fundamental laws of nature. Each sponsor, as well as the patrons, improves the quality of the videos drastically, it improves the depth, it improves the frequency, and it goes toward paying the staff, for instance, someone who's editing this full-time right now, and then we have an operations manager. The link to Martin's podcast is in the description as usual, everything is in the description, as well as timestamps, and I hope that you enjoy this hob-ambulating interview as much as I did."
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      "text": " Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis, your host. I will be in the chat room to answer questions or say hi and all that. And I want to thank all those who support the show and I appreciate every single listener. And again, I hope you have a great 2023. The guest tonight, Kurt Jaimungal. I'm really excited to have him on. I've watched a number of his videos on the theories of everything. He's got a great YouTube channel and podcast."
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      "text": " He interviews all kinds of interesting people and a number of people in the UFO world. And that's really why I got ahold of him. I saw that he had some kind of interest in UFOs, at least he's looking into them, curiosity. And he has had a number of really great guests. And I'm going to talk to him a little bit about that and how he got into this and all that. So without further ado, I will bring him in. Welcome to the show, Kurt."
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      "text": " Thank you. It's good to be here. Thank you, Martin. Yeah. You know, I've had a lot of people, uh, I announced last week that you were going to be on this week and I got some email. People are pretty excited that you're coming on. So there's a lot of, there's, believe it or not, even if you didn't do UFOs, there is a crossover of people that, you know, watch your channel and you, and you, I saw you have a lot of subscribers and a lot of very popular videos that you put out there."
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      "text": " Well, I hope I don't disappoint those people who are looking forward to this. No, you won't. No, you won't. I hope I don't disappoint you. No, not at all. So what made you decide to to actually create this, the theories of everything or it's just called theories of everything podcast and YouTube channel? So I've always been interested in in the physics term theories of everything, that is, how do you how do you unify quantum field theory and then gravity or general relativity?"
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      "text": " I've always been almost always been interested in that since I've been a kid. And then when I went to university, I became more interested in stand up and from stand up so stand up comedy from that I did film."
    },
    {
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      "text": " And then from there, when I graduated, I went into filmmaking rather than into math and physics, primarily because when you have to do math and physics, at least for myself, I despise it. So my favorite courses were always the courses that I wasn't assigned. So if someone says, you have to do so-and-so, you have to do this homework assignment, I despise that. I'm extremely averse to it, makes me not want to do it."
    },
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      "text": " However, if there's a different course, I'll look up the book for that course even though I'm supposed to be studying for some other course. Anyway, the point is I don't like to do what I'm supposed to do. So I went into filmmaking, which is a great avenue for people who are just as desultory as myself."
    },
    {
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      "index": 13,
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      "text": " then I started to make a film and release some of the interviews on YouTube and those are essentially podcasts interviews and that started to take traction and I thought given that the pandemic is eminent or occurring right now why not"
    },
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      "text": " Why not? Sorry, I said eminent. I meant imminent. Why not interviews, for instance, Donald Hoffman? Because I hear so many people talk about his theories, and I've heard him talk about it at a fairly superficial level. And he's claiming that there's mathematics behind it. Okay, well, I can read that math. Why don't I read his papers and then interview him? I did that. And then that took off. And I thought, hey, given that I'm extremely interested, there's like this burning passion in me for theories of everything. Why not go back into that?"
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      "text": " It's never left me, even when I was doing films, there's an element of physics and math in them. So I put out more interviews, quote unquote interviews, not even podcasts on that subject. And that seemed to take off. And so it's not as if it was a conscious decision. At one single point, it was the gradual change. And at some points, I called it theories of everything, whereas before it had a different name."
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      "text": " Yeah, yeah. Well, it's fascinating. And, you know, I've had these curiosities too, but not at your level, you know, not at such a deep scientific or mathematical level. But I'm still fascinated. I would say I'm a fan of it all. And so it's I have a curiosity about it. And I think it's great that you also looked into a number of different topics, and we'll talk about them later as well."
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      "text": " because you know consciousness is something that you've looked into and have done some interviews on but it's also something that I get contacted all the time and people are saying they believe there's a connection between UFOs and consciousness and I can't I've been trying to understand exactly what that would be or how how that works and even when I've had people try to explain it to me I still can't understand and there there's a great quote"
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      "end_time": 435.299,
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      "text": " And I'm trying to remember who said the quote, that what we know is a drop and what we don't know is a notion. Right. Yeah. And I do believe that. I believe there's so much to learn and we just know a little tiny, tiny fraction of what there is to learn. Yeah, I agree. So I'm glad you're doing this. So what do you think the connection is between UFOs and consciousness?"
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      "text": " I have tried to understand that and you know some people are saying that it's created through our consciousness but then that doesn't you know like on an individual basis but interesting but I don't you know then I I counter that with okay well what about the mass sightings you know there's so many sightings like the Phoenix lights that have thousands of people that saw it and there's one in Chicago in a area and there's this whole bunch of sightings"
    },
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      "index": 20,
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      "text": " where there's been many multiples of witnesses. So that doesn't really pan out in that particular situation. But I think it's still really interesting. And I've seen several people on your show, like I was just listening to Ross Coldheart. And he's been on my show before. I really respect him, like him. He's a journalist in Australia, of course."
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      "text": " You know, Martin, I think"
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    {
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      "text": " I promise I'm not being or trying to be politically correct. But each person that I interview on the UFO topic is interesting in their own way. And I think you found that true and found that as well. Someone said to me that there's no there's only characters in the scene. And I don't know why that is. But it seems that that's the case. Ross seems to be much more of the sober individual. But there are many of the more public facing ones are have uncommon personalities. So I find them interesting."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 568.814,
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      "text": " Yeah, let me think if there were any that were uninteresting because I think that's a more act that I can give an accurate answer to that. OK, if I encounter one, I'll let you know. OK, I know you had I think there's there's one or one or two. Yeah, there were that I call uninteresting. Well, I know it doesn't mean that they're wrong or that I disbelieve them. It just means that I was you had Stephen Greer on, which I kind of I'm not really kind to Stephen Greer and on the show to to kind."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 597.756,
      "index": 24,
      "start_time": 569.241,
      "text": " But a lot of people, as soon as you had him on and people watched the show, they said, oh, you got to watch this. He really challenged him on a lot of things. And so you did a nice job on that particular show, I believe, and challenging him, which I think anyone that is out there claiming more or less that they know what's going on needs to be challenged, in my opinion, because I personally think"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 618.746,
      "index": 25,
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      "text": " that we have no idea. Our government has no government. So I don't believe really have a full understanding. I saw that Ross kind of touched on that as well. But they may know more than we know about the UFO topic. Yeah. So yes, just so you know, my job, sorry, not my job, my"
    },
    {
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      "text": " goal in any of the podcast is never to challenge a guest. If that happens, that just happens. It's just questions happen. Questions occur to me and I ask them. Yeah, I don't go in thinking, how can I disprove or prove a person? I go in thinking, how can I understand what they're saying? And how can I if I if I don't understand it, if there are gaps in my knowledge, how can I fill them? So with Stephen Greer, I didn't intend to challenge him. I also don't think I challenged him. So I know some people are saying that my I think what they're referring to is he said"
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      "text": " i could explain the physics of this but your audience wouldn't understand that and i said okay well i don't think you know what show you're on that's why the audience is here at least the majority of them so please if you have that knowledge and then people were getting some people an extreme minority of people were getting upset because they're saying you shouldn't have asked them to explain physics is not a physicist"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 695.316,
      "index": 28,
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      "text": " I didn't say he was a physicist. I'm sorry. He was the one who said that he could explain. So that's what I was doing. And that was that came across as a challenge. I didn't intend it. Secondly, there are many of his claims that I asked for quote unquote evidence, which triggered him. But I I take that as a fault on mine. I need to improve as an interviewer because maybe he not maybe my demeanor came across as disbelieving and perhaps even disparaging. And I apologize to that, Stephen, if you're watching. And I didn't mean it to be that way."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 724.616,
      "index": 29,
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      "text": " So that's just my fault. I need to work on that. Yeah. Well, no, I think that's exactly what they were talking about. And yeah, there's a lot of times I've said that, too. I've had people on the show that have made extraordinary claims. And I had a woman on the show that claims she was riding through the rings of Saturn. And I basically had to end this show early. It was a live show."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 754.258,
      "index": 30,
      "start_time": 724.872,
      "text": " You know, I mean, it was just going out there a little too far from, I wasn't, I was uncomfortable with it. How did you end it? Did you end it by like? Not in a rude way. I ended in the softest way I could. And, uh, I just said, well, that's going to do it for the show, you know, tonight. Okay. So she wasn't offended. Uh, I talked to her afterwards and kind of smoothed it over a little bit. Yeah. Okay. So she was, there was some umbrage there. I was wondering why I cut the show short. Yeah. She was on with a, with a guest."
    },
    {
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      "text": " Do you think that there's any one theory over another that these things could be or do you think they could be a multiple of things that people are seeing?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 791.476,
      "index": 32,
      "start_time": 783.899,
      "text": " I think that... So I don't favor one theory over the others. I find flaws."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 818.899,
      "index": 33,
      "start_time": 791.886,
      "text": " like six blemishes. If I think about a single theory for a minute, I just see that's what I mentioned that I, that's what I meant when I said that I have questions, they occur to me and I don't get to cite them all or recite them all. Sorry, I don't get to bring them up to the guests. So I just find flaws with virtually every interpretation, which either means that there are flaws, which I think is the case, but it also means that I don't understand them or also could mean I don't understand them, which, which I think is the case. So that's why I need to work harder to understanding these theories."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 849.206,
      "index": 34,
      "start_time": 819.292,
      "text": " And then thirdly, that we don't have complete information, which I think is the one fact, fact that we can that virtually everyone agrees on. We don't have complete information on this. Yes. Yes. So that's why it's difficult for me to favor a theory over another. And that in that way, though, how how would you as as a scientist yourself, how would you suggest that people are looking into this topic or trying to get data for this?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 877.329,
      "index": 35,
      "start_time": 849.667,
      "text": " for what is occurring. I mean, it's such a... Yeah, given that it's not replicable, it doesn't seem like it is, however, there is CE5 that some people claim is something that can be verified and repeated. I don't know, but that's the claim. And many people who aren't even in the Stephen Greer camp claim that. So I would say that the best way to gather data in this is twofold. One is to perform CE5 near"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 901.186,
      "index": 36,
      "start_time": 877.329,
      "text": " Some some of the some of the instruments some of the instruments of the Galileo project. And then secondly, apparently there are some hotspots. So why not launch a private now all requires billions or millions of these multi millions? Yeah, why not launch a private satellite to monitor some of these hotspots and live stream it if it could be"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 931.101,
      "index": 37,
      "start_time": 901.886,
      "text": " That's what I meant. That's like the easiest that come to mind. Yeah. How does science study this scientifically? It has to be streamed because otherwise you get like even for instance, the the large Hadron Collider, which by the way, cost multi million. So it's not as if this is some project that's unheard of precedent for it. Even that the data is classified. Sorry, that's false. Even that the data is not released because there's terabytes, terabytes or petabytes. There's so much data. They have to compress it. They have to use algorithms. So you don't get to see the data."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 961.459,
      "index": 38,
      "start_time": 931.613,
      "text": " Somehow we need to be able to see the data for a private satellite that's launched and everyone needs to be able to have access to that. Now, I don't know how that works in terms of logistics, but conceivably it can be done. Yeah, there are a few people that are kind of going along that line that are trying to, you know, like I'm trying to think what it's called. It's open. It's open. What do they call it? Open software or whatever it is."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 985.316,
      "index": 39,
      "start_time": 961.698,
      "text": " Yeah. So there are people that are trying to put things like that together and where everyone could have, not everyone, but people that are involved in this can have some type of equipment, equipment at their home. And like you say, if something is caught, you know, that is not explainable, that can be seen, then they could live stream it to, you know, basically everyone else that's involved."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1014.855,
      "index": 40,
      "start_time": 985.811,
      "text": " And I think it's free for anyone. I can't remember the name of it. People may ask me that. So if I figure that out, I could put it in the show notes. But there is that service that is out there. As far as I know, it's already been established where people are setting up all over. And there are a lot of people that just say there's nothing to this. For instance, Neil deGrasse Tyson, you hear him often"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1044.889,
      "index": 41,
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      "text": " Like just say there's nothing and he goes on and on about there's, you know, eight billion cell phones out there. Why don't we have a crystal clear picture? And, you know, I mean, and then just the military is seeing these things and, you know, all like that. And so I guess I want to ask you, I considered that close minded and not really scientific to just pass it all off like that. You know, I'm using him as an example, but"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1073.899,
      "index": 42,
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      "text": " You know, what do you think about that? Don't you think that science should be open to at least exploring what all these people are seeing? And there is some data for I think it's a form of for I have to be careful because I would like to get Neil on the podcast. Yeah. But OK, let me let me burn some bridges. I think it would be I think it's an example of scientific grandstanding. I don't believe he means what he says. I think that he says that"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1099.36,
      "index": 43,
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      "text": " or and people like I'll speak broadly. I think people like to say that to give off an air that they're rational and thus superior in some manner. And I don't think that he believes what he's saying, because you can ask him a set of questions, which I don't want to ask here because I don't. It's a forest. I don't want him to. Well, I want to ask it to him directly. But essentially, Neil, if you believe that"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1119.497,
      "index": 44,
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      "text": " like what is it precisely that you're saying no to firstly define it secondly give the probabilities thirdly let's bet on it and i'm willing to put some money up and i want i wonder if he is as well so if you that's to me the true test of a belief are you willing to put some money against it and then the odds have to be like bookie odds booker bookie"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1146.305,
      "index": 45,
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      "text": " Yeah, like a bookie. That is to say, imagine he says 99 to 1. Well, then that means, Neil, that if I put up $100 and you put up 9,000 on 900, you believe this to be a fair bet. Okay, so let's do that. And if you want to make it even more interesting, let's do it as a percentage of income. So that's actually more fair. So let's do that. You truly believe it's 99% 99 to 1 or 99.999 to 1, then I'm going to put up a dollar and you put up a million and you think that that's and that should be fair. So that's what I would say."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1173.268,
      "index": 46,
      "start_time": 1147.108,
      "text": " Yeah. And look, imagine he doesn't imagine he then backpedals and says, Okay, it's 80% to 20. Okay, well, then it doesn't deserve the same derisive attitude. 80% to 20. There are pills that you're not even allowed to touch as a pregnant woman, because it has a one point or 0.002% chance of causing some damage to your fetus. So you're not even allowed to touch that pill, let alone swallow it. So you're saying that you're scorning a whole"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1203.268,
      "index": 47,
      "start_time": 1173.763,
      "text": " There's a video out there where he says something like, you need to know in science when you don't know. You need to be smart enough to say that you don't know, which I agree with."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1217.483,
      "index": 48,
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      "text": " And then yet he goes on and claims he knows everything about UFOs that they're not real. Well, he makes an argument which I think is again a fallacious one or at least it's a"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1241.169,
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      "text": " It's a misrepresentation. So he'll say, look unidentified means unidentified. You see something, you don't all of a sudden jump to aliens. I see a blur in the sky, therefore aliens. That's not how it works though, Neil. It's not just that you see something in the sky and you jump to aliens. It's that you see something in the sky and it's correlated with what many other people see. It's correlated with other sorts of experiences. It's correlated with"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1268.456,
      "index": 50,
      "start_time": 1241.766,
      "text": " say cattle mutilations it's correlated with plenty else and if not all correlated it's not as if every time you see your voice you find a cattle mutilated but i'm saying there's correlations so it's not merely you see something and thus you jump quote unquote jump to the conclusion that is therefore aliens and also it's unclear if it's just aliens it's not as if that's the only theory going around in these circles yes right it's not even clear what alien means does it mean"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1286.493,
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      "start_time": 1268.729,
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      "index": 59,
      "start_time": 1439.104,
      "text": " If you use that code, you'll get two years worth of blades for free. Just make sure to add them to the cart. Plus 100 free blades when you head to H E N S O N S H A V I N G dot com slash everything and use the code everything. With time traveling, but then there are other ways. The point is that that is not simply you see some object in the sky and then you"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1495.469,
      "index": 60,
      "start_time": 1467.09,
      "text": " Conclude that it's thus some extraterrestrial But that's what he's that's what he's saying that or I don't want to speak about him because I'd rather speak to him But that's what some people in the skeptic community claim is going on. Yeah, I don't think that's fair I don't think it's fair either because there's a lot of the people I talked to about this subject are not saying that that's what it is, you know a lot of people are"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1525.759,
      "index": 61,
      "start_time": 1495.964,
      "text": " say that they have no idea what it is other than, you know, there was something there. You know, they're not saying, you know, extraterrestrial. I think that's a very good possibility. But I don't know if, you know, myself, my own opinion, that is a very good possibility that that's what it is. But it could be so many other things. You know, I mean, like you mentioned, the time travel is one of the theories that are out there. Interdimensional is another one. You know, and then I had an ex CIA officer"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1554.531,
      "index": 62,
      "start_time": 1526.305,
      "text": " Last week who thinks that it's something that's always been here, you know before us and Still still remains here and around us. We're the foreigners Yeah, we're the foreigners. We're the ones that proceeded or whatever which it's all fat to me It's one of the reasons I keep doing this show I really enjoy doing the show because I get to hear all these ideas and things and and you know after all these years of doing this and over five hundred and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1585.367,
      "index": 63,
      "start_time": 1555.52,
      "text": " Well, I think you're 537 for the guest. I don't really know. 537 guests? Yeah. I really don't know anymore at this point. It's still very exciting to me because I like to hear about the actual incidents as well. That really fascinates me a lot because some of them are so bizarre, they make no sense at all, which"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1613.712,
      "index": 64,
      "start_time": 1586.271,
      "text": " to me almost makes them even stronger, you know, like, uh, just bizarre things, uh, because it, it doesn't sound, it doesn't appear like it's anything that, um, could be made up or I, I, I like to, when I meet someone that is outside of the UFO world or whatever, and I happen to bring up a topic that, you know, it kind of feeds into this and I say, well, by the way, I do a show on UFOs."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1643.507,
      "index": 65,
      "start_time": 1614.241,
      "text": " Oh, well, let me tell you about this story. And I've heard some just amazing stories that are so bizarre and almost don't even make any sense. You know, I mean, I'll just give a quick example. I mean, this is my show. I know I've talked about it before on my show, but I was out in Phoenix at a conference out there and there was a I was walking my dog and there was a girl out that worked the casino that was outside smoking a cigarette."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1672.125,
      "index": 66,
      "start_time": 1643.848,
      "text": " And she said, what's going on in there? And I said, well, it's a UFO conference. And she goes, oh, wow, geez, maybe I should check that out. And then she started telling me the story. She said her and her friend were driving past a Mesa and they saw this like triangular thing, like lift off and kind of float toward them. And then it was directly over their car. And then it blasted like this bright light down inside their car. And they sped up to like a hundred miles an hour and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1702.363,
      "index": 67,
      "start_time": 1673.08,
      "text": " to try to outrun the thing and it was just right over the top of the car the whole time and so they like went off on side roads or something like that and she said and it was gone it just vanished and then she said all of a sudden the biggest owl I've ever seen in my life was right there in front of the car now something so weird that doesn't make any sense I just think that is just an incredible thing and and other people have talked about owls and here's this this girl I'm talking to that"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1731.561,
      "index": 68,
      "start_time": 1703.2,
      "text": " has never looked into the UFO topic, just had that one event. And there's a lot of interesting stories like that. That make no sense. I love the ones that make no sense. Just very curious. Was she able to explain how she could see it above her car? Well, it came in from the sun roof."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1761.015,
      "index": 69,
      "start_time": 1732.056,
      "text": " And it came in that way, but she saw like, first of all, she saw it over the, they could see it was over the car itself. And then the light came down and lit it up like, uh, like a blast of light. The whole car was very, very bright inside and it was during the day. It wasn't that evening sighting either. So yeah, it's really bizarre. Yeah. Again, makes, makes no sense, but those are the ones I like. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so as far as, uh,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1786.596,
      "index": 70,
      "start_time": 1761.8,
      "text": " We're going to talk about other topics as well besides the UFO topic, but what do you think about the U.S. government's involvement in looking at the data? Well, it's either an admission or it's obfuscation, and either one's interesting to me. Yeah."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1816.084,
      "index": 71,
      "start_time": 1786.886,
      "text": " That's something I never really thought of but you know some people have said that in the UFO world that they think that you know this is just window dressing and and just hoping you know people go away after they get some answers and not really get too many you know enough out there and we've been told this a number of times that you know it's being looked into and over the over the decades Project Blue Book, the Condon"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1845.555,
      "index": 72,
      "start_time": 1816.852,
      "text": " commission or whatever that was called. So there's been a number of times that there's, there feels like there's going to be some type of promise of understanding this, but I really don't think that they understand. That's my own opinion. Yeah, I get that feeling as well. Yeah. I mean, if, if they had to say to the United States, you know, the, the, the people of the United States, like we,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1868.217,
      "index": 73,
      "start_time": 1845.862,
      "text": " I don't know. I imagine that the quote unquote panic would be momentary for that if they just said there are"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1898.387,
      "index": 74,
      "start_time": 1868.882,
      "text": " Objects in the sky, we don't know what they are. I don't know if that would cause extreme panic or if it would be panic that would be prolonged. I think that that's an excuse unless they have something else that I don't that doesn't occur to me. I don't know. I don't buy that as an excuse. I don't think it would happen and I just don't buy it as an excuse. But again, I don't know. I'm learning and I don't know. I don't buy it. Yeah. Yeah. So if have you yourself ever had a UFO sighting or anyone you know?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1919.701,
      "index": 75,
      "start_time": 1899.445,
      "text": " Not that I know of, so maybe. What about when you have done shows on UFOs? Have you ever been contacted by someone that said, I want to talk to you about this sighting I had? I get numerous emails."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1945.674,
      "index": 76,
      "start_time": 1920.64,
      "text": " Still like even months after a show. It's been months since or it's been one and a half months since the Stephen Greer and then months before that since the last UFO themed show on the on the Toll channel. Yeah. And I get them maybe every day. Isn't that something I get? I get quite a few as well. And I have a form on my website that people can fill out, you know, anonymously."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1969.838,
      "index": 77,
      "start_time": 1945.998,
      "text": " actually got hacked. But I do have a way for people to post on my website when they want to talk anonymously about their sighting, just to let them get it out there. A lot of people just want to be heard. That's why you get in the emails. They want to share and get it off their chest or whatever. I bet you get some interesting ones come through."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 1994.36,
      "index": 78,
      "start_time": 1971.408,
      "text": " It's at the point I can't read them. So unfortunately, I just I can't read them. So I apologize. You just have too much going on. They're way, way too much. I can't read my own emails from the people who are working for me like editing. Oh, wow. Yeah, I use the time at the gym to go through some unread messages."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2024.889,
      "index": 79,
      "start_time": 1995.555,
      "text": " But that's not enough time. And then by the time the next session, there's so much more piled up. So it's unfortunate. Yeah. I remember I talked to you. Are you familiar with who Seth Shostak is at SETI? He's a senior scientist at the SETI Institute. He told me he gets 4,000 emails a day. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's a heck of a lot of emails. Yeah, I doubt it's 4,000, but yeah."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2053.797,
      "index": 80,
      "start_time": 2025.367,
      "text": " Maybe including newsletters he signed up for. But yes, they could be. Yeah, I mean, I could I could see hundreds. I mean, I feel like, yeah, exactly. I get many dozens myself that I can do a calculation like 4000 times 365. And how many is that? Is it the same person emailing multiple times? Jack's are fatty. If anyone's on his list, there are at least 20 emails a day from Jack. So does that count as 20 emails or one? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So let's I think"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2079.48,
      "index": 81,
      "start_time": 2054.292,
      "text": " I think I kind of went through everything that I was thinking about. I guess I do want to ask you, do you ever think that people will eventually understand what it is that UFOs, UAP are? Yeah. So I'm in a minority camp, but again, this is my present deliberation. It tends to change every couple of weeks or every day sometimes. So I think yes, I think we'll understand it, but we'll understand it"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2107.773,
      "index": 82,
      "start_time": 2080.077,
      "text": " the same way that we understand a sperm whale. So we don't know what the heck a sperm whale does with the majority of its time. We don't know how it attacks, how it eats its prey. There's so many mysteries, but yet we imagine that they're a mammal. We think they're a mammal and we see evidence for that. And we understand they live in the ocean. We understand their evolutionary, their relationship in the phylogenetic tree. And we understand a bit about what it does eat, even though we don't know how it does eat it."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2135.333,
      "index": 83,
      "start_time": 2108.746,
      "text": " So I imagine it would be like that, like broad strokes we would understand. But as for specifics, much like anything else in science, it's, it's, it's not going to be complete nor in the case of the sperm whale satisfactory, at least not to people who study sperm whales. Most people don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, a lot of people are saying that we're in some type of disclosure now since 2017, um, you know, and,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2153.524,
      "index": 84,
      "start_time": 2135.93,
      "text": " I don't know what they're referring to and I've heard so many people say this but what do you mean? What counts as disclosure to them? Do they even say that?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2173.029,
      "index": 85,
      "start_time": 2154.258,
      "text": " i what do they mean we're in the middle of disclosure if what they mean is that it's a long process and we've started step zero or one okay but if what they mean is that it's been disclosed like what more do you want what do you mean what more do you want do you not do you have that little disconnect with with not ufology but just the"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2194.957,
      "index": 86,
      "start_time": 2173.626,
      "text": " Because that's a word that's apparently tainted. The people who are interested in UFOs do not understand what they want. They don't want just some government saying that there are objects and we don't know where they're from. We want to know, do they know more? Do they have access to craft? Can we see a picture? Can we have some admission, some explicit admission? It's not"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2221.596,
      "index": 87,
      "start_time": 2195.367,
      "text": " I don't know what's meant when they say disclosure has occurred. What are they referring to? And if right. Well, yeah, so read. So I I don't buy that. I had Lou Elizondo's been on my show a few times. And one of the things he said on another podcast and I questioned him about it was that we're soon to see a 23 minute video. I don't know where he came up with that exactly."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2228.404,
      "index": 88,
      "start_time": 2222.108,
      "text": " But it was supposed to be with multiple craft and it's going to be really good, you know, evidence or whatever."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2256.067,
      "index": 89,
      "start_time": 2228.797,
      "text": " So I've been waiting for that for almost a year now. Yeah. And 23 minutes coincidentally is the exact timeframe of a television show with commercials. So I don't know what form this, this video takes. And by the way, I love Lou and I respect Lou. That was no, in no way a jab to Lou. Like I, I, I, so just so you know, I do not take that as a, I just, I'm just letting you know, maybe he's been told something. I expect that he's been told that. Right. Right."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2285.589,
      "index": 90,
      "start_time": 2256.647,
      "text": " All right, well, there's some other topics I would like to talk to you about. And so I guess I would like to ask you, what is the most exciting research topic when it comes to theoretical physics these days? Right. So physics. OK, so let's get clear as to what theoretical physics means, because so there's high energy physics, which is what I like, which actually doesn't mean physics."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2315.043,
      "index": 91,
      "start_time": 2286.254,
      "text": " It means a math that's inspired by physics. So for people who are interested, there's something called a Poisson bracket. You use that in classical mechanics. Now, if you just take the Poisson bracket and you find some new construction with it or some new results, some new theorem involving the Poisson bracket, you can publish in a journal for classical mechanics, even though it may have nothing to do with class with classical mechanics. So that's what theoretical physics is like. There's it's just math inspired by physics."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2338.336,
      "index": 92,
      "start_time": 2315.896,
      "text": " Which is why there's such criticism for string theory because unclear. Does this have any application? It may have in principle, no application or no, or in practice, no application because in order to test it, you may create a black hole for instance. Okay. So there's that. So, but I happen to like that. I, I, I love theory. So that's just like my bread and butter."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2366.903,
      "index": 93,
      "start_time": 2338.968,
      "text": " If I was to redo it, I would go into like for something that's actually physics, what I think is actually physics or what is actually physics is condensed matter physics. So plenty of, like I mentioned, the theoretical side, they have exotic states, exotic states of matter that come about. And it turns out that they have a basis in something called condensed matter physics. So superconductors, super cooling materials, and well, that's enough. Well, and"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2395.452,
      "index": 94,
      "start_time": 2368.217,
      "text": " When it comes to like the standard model of particle physics, can that explain the universe? I know that's kind of an intense question. Maybe I asked it wrong. Asked it wrong. Well, okay. Let me try to ask that again. Please. Yeah. How does the standard model of particle physics explain the universe?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2417.858,
      "index": 95,
      "start_time": 2398.029,
      "text": " Well, it doesn't. So, okay, it doesn't explain the universe, it explains particle interactions. And even there, it doesn't explain, quote unquote, it gives some calculations, some tools. There's a physicist that I, a philosopher of physics, who I interviewed named Tim Maudlin, he said that every"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2448.046,
      "index": 96,
      "start_time": 2418.183,
      "text": " Whenever you learn quantum mechanics, sorry, whenever you learn quantum theory in university, you don't learn quantum theory. You learn quantum mechanics. So a tool for calculating what's going on at a small level, so at a subatomic level. But a theory should have an account of ontology. Like what the heck is going on? What is physically happening? The standard model is much like the shut up and calculate mindset. And it's not the, it doesn't,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2465.111,
      "index": 97,
      "start_time": 2448.439,
      "text": " explain a part of an explanation at least what we think so is the colloquially is to understand what's going on just because you have statistical correlations it doesn't give an account as to what's metaphysically happening so i want to say it explains the universe and secondly"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2495.435,
      "index": 98,
      "start_time": 2465.555,
      "text": " It just explains if it was to explain anything, it would be particle interactions and it's not clear how gravity comes about. It's not clear how consciousness comes about. And I would say that those are extreme parts of the world, not extreme. Those are crucial parts of the universe that we would want to know and account of in order to, quote unquote, explain the universe. And that's what they mean is explain the physical universe. But even there, like I mentioned, it's incomplete and virtually every physicist agrees on that. Now, I know, like the gravity is"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2524.974,
      "index": 99,
      "start_time": 2496.391,
      "text": " is really, really hard to understand how it works. And I know there's been, there was sort of a semi minor breakthrough in that, I don't know, maybe five or 10 years ago. And how does that fit in with, there's so many questions that I think we have that we can't really understand and like black dark matter and, you know,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2550.538,
      "index": 100,
      "start_time": 2525.998,
      "text": " It's always tempting to think that the mysteries have a relationship to one another. I don't know if that's always the case, but it's one route to go."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2579.957,
      "index": 101,
      "start_time": 2551.271,
      "text": " And one of the things that's always fascinated me is the quantum, the entanglement theory. So what are the implications of quantum entanglement for our understanding of the universe? Someone I want to interview, Martin, is someone on this recent experiment at Google about quantum entanglement and wormholes. So I don't know, I haven't looked into it, but apparently there's something called ER"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2598.592,
      "index": 102,
      "start_time": 2581.084,
      "text": " Just a moment. EPR equals EPR equals ER. That just means that entanglement equals a wormhole. That doesn't exactly mean that there's some mathematical formulation."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2627.022,
      "index": 103,
      "start_time": 2599.633,
      "text": " I don't understand it. I don't understand the philosophical implications for quantum entanglement. And so something I'm working on to understand it is a book on the interpretations of quantum mechanics. So I'm writing that, then I'll hopefully have a coherent answer for you. So my answer, whenever I don't understand something, I just tend to write about it. Oh, interesting. Do you think there ever will be a theory of everything? It's kind of evasive, like UFOs, right?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2657.517,
      "index": 104,
      "start_time": 2630.503,
      "text": " I see there being, for what a culture at a certain time thinks of as complete, yes. And then I imagine that there will be some other piece of evidence that comes about that reveals a new vista. So for instance, in the late 1900s, there was a theory of everything and it was Newtonian mechanics. So classical mechanics plus statistical mechanics. And they thought that's all. Or electrodynamics too. And they thought that's all."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2687.159,
      "index": 105,
      "start_time": 2658.166,
      "text": " It was unclear how to combine them. And it turns out that you get special relativity and many other effects when you combine them. But to them, the toll was on the horizon. And I imagine that that's what we'll be in a state of in the next 30 years. The toll will be on the horizon, if not complete, but then something new will be discovered that shatters all of that. Hmm. Yeah. So I agree with that part of it, sure. Yeah. And"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2708.353,
      "index": 106,
      "start_time": 2688.029,
      "text": " So I guess the whole thing about entanglement is just so fascinating. It doesn't seem like it could even be possible, the interactions across unlimited space, supposedly. I mean, I don't even know how they test something like that. Do you have any idea how they can test something like that?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2727.91,
      "index": 107,
      "start_time": 2710.674,
      "text": " Yes, so there are ways of creating a scenario that because of a conservation law, meaning, so here's a conservation law, there's mass conservation. If this was to disappear,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2753.148,
      "index": 108,
      "start_time": 2728.609,
      "text": " Then the mass in the room changed and you have to look somewhere else for the mass. And it turns out that if you look hard enough, you'll find the mass pop up somewhere. So there's mass conservation. Turns out that there's not exactly mass conservation. But the point is, I'm trying to explain what a conservation law is, that something is conserved across time. It turns out spin is something that's conserved across time. So elementary particles spin, and they can spin in two directions, what's called up,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2778.968,
      "index": 109,
      "start_time": 2753.677,
      "text": " and what's called down. So if the total spin in this room is zero and we created particles and I know for sure one of the particles has a spin up, then I know that the other particle has a spin down because those have to cancel in order to equal zero. So what happens is you create particles that you don't observe and through some arguments,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2808.848,
      "index": 110,
      "start_time": 2779.497,
      "text": " They're not supposed to have a defined up or down, which is strange to think about. And there are some theories that go against this. For instance, Tim Audlin is a realist and believes the particles do actually carry an up or down. But in the standard interpretations, they don't have up or down until they're observed. They exist in an amalgam of them of the they exist in an amalgam of up and down a superposition is what's called superposition. I have I don't believe in superposition. I know that's so strange. I'm making such"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2834.445,
      "index": 111,
      "start_time": 2809.497,
      "text": " Inflammatory statements, but I can explain why I don't believe in superposition later. Anyway, so it's up and down. Let me be clear, just in case someone's going to comment and I never get to the explanation. I believe in superposition as a mathematical tool. I don't believe that particles are indeed in two places at once, for instance. OK, so if you create a particle or particle pair and you know that"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2858.285,
      "index": 112,
      "start_time": 2835.162,
      "text": " this particle is in some superposition of up and down and this one is in a superposition of up and down you created it but you don't know what because you're not going to observe it and then you wait until you go until one goes off to canada where are you in the states yes in the states yeah okay so one goes off to canada the other goes to which which city are you in well i'm in rockland maine okay so one goes off to maine and you can"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2886.152,
      "index": 113,
      "start_time": 2858.968,
      "text": " And you can figure out, sorry, and you can measure them. So every time I measure mine, I measure mine is up, let's say, or measure mine is down. It doesn't matter. I measure it as one either up or down. The other one is either up or down correspondingly to make it cancel every single time. And that has to happen because of conservation. Now, where does the so there's nothing wrong with that. But where does the faster than light communication come from? Well, if I measure mine, I collapse it, I collapse it either to up or to down."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2915.043,
      "index": 114,
      "start_time": 2886.476,
      "text": " like instantaneously, I measure mine in Canada, I'm measuring mine in Toronto. I ask you like, you measure yours, and it turns out it still matches, even though there was no, for like to have traveled from me to you, it didn't have enough time, it wouldn't have reached you. So it's strange, how the heck, if these didn't have something defined before, I defined mine by looking at it, it collapsed, it collapses up. How the heck does yours even know to collapse to down in order to conserve globally?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2933.285,
      "index": 115,
      "start_time": 2915.828,
      "text": " So that's what quantum entanglement is, and there are ways of formulating that experiment. I don't think they go as far as hundreds of kilometers, but I think they've done it. I think it's been done to like 12 kilometers. I'm not sure. Yeah, even even anything apart."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2963.012,
      "index": 116,
      "start_time": 2933.848,
      "text": " is even a meter. Yeah. Yeah. Just astonishing. Now I would like to talk a little bit about consciousness because again, as I mentioned in the beginning, a lot of people talk about that relationship with UFOs, which I really don't understand. But what, what is the relationship between consciousness and the brain? So,"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 2987.995,
      "index": 117,
      "start_time": 2964.224,
      "text": " So that's an extremely difficult question that depends on if one is a materialist or an idealist and maybe some other-ist or some other-ism. So in the materialist sense, they would say that, hey, there's just some interactions of particles, some dynamics, and that creates consciousness. And then in the idealist consciousness' fundamental sense, they would say, no, no, no, the brain is an element of consciousness."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3017.875,
      "index": 118,
      "start_time": 2988.712,
      "text": " And you're somehow interacting with consciousness. So it's consciousness. It's not as if the brain produces consciousness. The brain is what consciousness looks like from another perspective. I don't know. I don't know how to answer such a question. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I also wondered what type of beings have consciousness and what don't. In other words, does an ant have consciousness?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3040.828,
      "index": 119,
      "start_time": 3018.422,
      "text": " You know, I mean, I don't know how that is measured or anything. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. And this is an age old question. It's unclear. It's so I can lead you down some dark places if you if you seriously contend with that question. And basically, how does it how would consciousness arise from a physical presence?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3071.988,
      "index": 120,
      "start_time": 3042.978,
      "text": " You're asking like the hardest questions, man. Well, these are questions that philosophers have been asking this question for for decades and then maybe even some rudimentary version of it for millennia. So I don't I don't know how to answer that. Yeah. And by the way, this is you're going to probably laugh when you hear this. I used AI for some of these questions. Sure. And there's a new chat out there. I'm sure you've probably heard of it."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3101.578,
      "index": 121,
      "start_time": 3072.551,
      "text": " I use that in asking for help with these questions. They really pose some difficult questions, I think. Here's another one. How does consciousness shape our perception of reality? I don't know. I would say that it doesn't shape our perception of reality. It allows us to perceive. An analogy would be"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3129.309,
      "index": 122,
      "start_time": 3101.92,
      "text": " Computers. So what's the relationship between computers and computation? Well, computers allow computation to occur. Computers aren't computation per se. Okay. Yeah, I don't I don't know if that's satisfactory. It's so the act of perceiving is is consciousness, then it's"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3155.384,
      "index": 123,
      "start_time": 3130.879,
      "text": " Yeah, I don't know how to explain it. I'm sorry, Martin. Yeah, no, no, this is, this is really interesting. And this AI, this AI is a great. Yeah, it's the AI. And I'm going to ask a question about that in a minute. But and so I also asked what's a really good question to ask about free will, because that's another one that's really an interesting topic that I think is anyway. And yeah, is free will an illusion? Or is it a reality?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3181.749,
      "index": 124,
      "start_time": 3158.166,
      "text": " I think free will is a word like consciousness, where it's unclear how to explicitly define it. But it does have a meaning. We mean something when we say it. It just seems that our rational attempts to investigate it are like us trying to grab water and it just falls through our hands. And it means that it's easy to conclude that it's an illusion. I think that's the easiest route to take."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3210.469,
      "index": 125,
      "start_time": 3182.312,
      "text": " I think that it's the logical route to take. Well, that's even that's difficult to say. But I don't think that rationality and logic is all. So I think that we're trying to capture something that's extremely elusive. And it allows people like Daniel Dennett to conclude that even consciousness is an illusion. So I don't know. I don't think I think that it has meaning and we're not properly characterizing it. We're trying to with our words and our words can't"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3236.834,
      "index": 126,
      "start_time": 3211.271,
      "text": " define it currently. So there's two options to that. One is the non dual route of just not speaking about it. This just escapes just experience it. The other route is that we need a more explicated language. And I tend to take both routes, I'm exploring both much of these investigations into toes into theories of everything. They"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3265.094,
      "index": 127,
      "start_time": 3237.142,
      "text": " An inference that's easy to draw is that we should just forget about speaking about it. Just live your life, go in the mountains, love and be endearing. And I think that's partly true. I also think it's true that there are many several, several problems. In fact, virtually every problem we can think of that millennia ago couldn't be solved because we didn't have the language for it. And now we can. I think that it's just part of part of the problem, by the way, is"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3291.22,
      "index": 128,
      "start_time": 3266.152,
      "text": " is making specific what is the, sorry, part of the solving is making specific what is the problem. So now that Chalmers has made explicit, seemingly, the hard problem of consciousness, which is, I think, 20 years old now or so, maybe 25, I imagine that consciousness, the hard problem of consciousness, I imagine that the hard problem of consciousness will be solved in 25 years."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3317.585,
      "index": 129,
      "start_time": 3292.398,
      "text": " And I also and now this is my present deliberation again. So I don't like to state opinions because I am fickle and my mind is mercurial. It changes fairly rapidly. So either way, I think my current deliberation is that consciousness, the heart problem will be solved in 25 years and it will be so trivial and we'll look back and think that was obvious."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3346.015,
      "index": 130,
      "start_time": 3318.131,
      "text": " And furthermore, there will be some new problem. Right now, that's the fad. Like, oh, my gosh, you can't just you can't go into a philosophical discussion without mentioning the hard problem of consciousness. So go back 100 years that wasn't even there. I imagine that something new will occur that just blows our mind. And we can't imagine how could you ever derive this from this, like the art from the is perhaps, or maybe even more fundamental. And then our understanding of what fundamental is will constantly change."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3368.695,
      "index": 131,
      "start_time": 3347.602,
      "text": " Yeah, excellent. Well, I think we're done our show basically, and I want to thank you so much for being here. Let's see if you can answer this real quickly because we only have about 30 seconds here. Do you think that AI is a dangerous thing for our future?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3397.21,
      "index": 132,
      "start_time": 3369.275,
      "text": " I think it may be the most dangerous, but I don't know. Again, I don't know. And I think that some of the people who are working on AI, I think they should examine their motivations and examine what they're doing. Some of the people at OpenAI who are creating ChatGPT and GPT-4, for people who are interested, I've done an interview with ChatGPT. It's coming out shortly, or maybe it's on the channel by the time this premieres. It's basically me interviewing ChatGPT as if it's a co-guest. That's awesome."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3420.913,
      "index": 133,
      "start_time": 3397.551,
      "text": " I think that they don't think about the consequences of what they're doing. Same with Google, same with Microsoft. I think they're all engineers, or the majority of them are engineers. And it's akin to people who are in the Manhattan Project who are physicists who are so jazzed about the physics, super jazzed, it's fun. Me and you were having an extreme amount of fun speaking about this. It's even more fun to investigate it with a pen and a paper and do research."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3445.486,
      "index": 134,
      "start_time": 3421.527,
      "text": " I think that they don't realize that what they're creating, they're going to burn their hands, just like Einstein said, I would have burned my hands had I known the consequences of what I had signed off to. Yeah. Speaking about the nuclear bomb. Right. And so so a question is like, well, for these open AI people, sure, what you're doing has a huge. There's the possibility for extreme public benefit, extreme."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3463.951,
      "index": 135,
      "start_time": 3446.032,
      "text": " But is that worth the possibility for extreme destruction, perhaps even civilization annihilation? I think each person needs to think about is what I'm doing ethical or possibly can it be turned into something unethical?"
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3486.186,
      "index": 136,
      "start_time": 3464.309,
      "text": " Yeah. And I think that it's terrible. It's a terrible place to be where someone says, well, look, I'm not going to quit my job at Google because one, it pays well and second, if I don't do it, someone else will. That reminds me of this movie. I forget what it was, but it has Nicolas Cage and he was a weapons dealer, I believe. And he said, hey, I may as well deal weapons because if I don't, someone else is going to take my position. I think that's abdicating your your culpability."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3505.964,
      "index": 137,
      "start_time": 3486.186,
      "text": " Hey Kurt, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. It's been a pleasure, man. Alright, I'll talk to you later. Alright."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3528.49,
      "index": 138,
      "start_time": 3507.585,
      "text": " The podcast is now concluded. Thank you for watching. If you haven't subscribed or clicked on that like button, now would be a great time to do so as each subscribe and like helps YouTube push this content to more people. Also, I recently found out that external links count plenty toward the algorithm, which means that when you share on Twitter, on Facebook, on Reddit, etc."
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      "end_time": 3555.418,
      "index": 139,
      "start_time": 3528.49,
      "text": " It shows YouTube that people are talking about this outside of YouTube, which in turn greatly aids the distribution on YouTube as well. If you'd like to support more conversations like this, then do consider visiting theories of everything dot org. Again, it's support from the sponsors and you that allow me to work on toe full time. You get early access to ad free audio episodes there as well. Every dollar helps far more than you may think. Either way, your viewership is generosity enough. Thank you."
    },
    {
      "end_time": 3587.176,
      "index": 140,
      "start_time": 3581.51,
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  ]
}