Audio Player
✓ Using synced audio (timestamps accurate)
Starting at:
Lue Elizondo Λ Sean Cahill on UFOs, Consciousness, Time, the Difficulty Talking about the Phenomenon
March 13, 2022
•
3:05:25
•
undefined
Audio:
Download MP3
✓ Synced audio available: Click any timestamp to play from that point. Timestamps are accurate because we're using the original ad-free audio.
Transcript
Enhanced with Timestamps
428 sentences
30,554 words
Method: api-polled
Transcription time: 181m 55s
The Economist covers math, physics, philosophy, and AI in a manner that shows how different countries perceive developments and how they impact markets. They recently published a piece on China's new neutrino detector. They cover extending life via mitochondrial transplants, creating an entirely new field of medicine. But it's also not just science they analyze.
Culture, they analyze finance, economics, business, international affairs across every region. I'm particularly liking their new insider feature. It was just launched this month. It gives you, it gives me, a front row access to The Economist's internal editorial debates.
Where senior editors argue through the news with world leaders and policy makers in twice weekly long format shows. Basically an extremely high quality podcast. Whether it's scientific innovation or shifting global politics, The Economist provides comprehensive coverage beyond headlines. As a toe listener, you get a special discount. Head over to economist.com slash TOE to subscribe. That's economist.com slash TOE for your discount.
This is Martian Beast Mode Lynch. Prize pick is making sports season even more fun. On prize picks, whether you're a football fan, a basketball fan, you'll always feel good to be ranked. Right now, new users get $50 instantly in lineups when you play your first $5. The app is simple to use. Pick two or more players. Pick more or less on their stat projections. Anything from touchdown to threes. And if you're right, you can win big. Mix and match players from
any sport on PrizePix, America's number one daily fantasy sports app. PrizePix is available in 40 plus states including California, Texas,
Recall that you can click on the timestamp in the description to skip this longish introduction.
This is a pivotal episode in the Toe series on the phenomenon, because it's akin to a meta episode, with the first half being a talk on the UFO topic, and the second half being a talk on the types of talks on the UFO topic.
This makes it a podcast that, though salutary, you rarely hear about. Thank you to Sean and Lou for their candor and unguardedness. This is the third interview with Lou Elizondo, outmatching even the previous as his longest interview ever. This time, we're joined with Sean Cahill. Lou Elizondo is a former US Army counterintelligence special agent, mostly known as the director of the now-defunct ATIP, which was a program initiated by the Defense Intelligence Agency in order to study the UAP phenomenon, also known as UFOs.
Chief Sean Cahill served in the United States Navy from 1995 to 2015 with missions spanning from anti-terrorism to anti-piracy to interrogations and investigations. He's a co-founder and strategic advisor at Skyfort.org, that is S-K-Y-F-O-R-T dot org, which is a think tank and tech incubator working on UAP studies. Click on the timestamp in the description if you'd like to skip this intro.
My name is Kurt Jaimungal. I'm a Torontonian filmmaker with a background in mathematical physics interested in explicating the variegated terrain of theories of everything from mainly a theoretical physics perspective, but as well as understanding the role consciousness has to fundamental reality.
The plan is for this podcast sometime this year to lead somewhere, perhaps even earlier, starting with ideas in gauge theory, which begin in ideas in Lie group theory, and build up to the infinite categorical approaches to physics, like infinite categories and modal homotopy type theories as well, and even geometric algebra. The reason being that the physical theories of everything and the language to understand them and the
Unification attempts are more elegantly written and understood from those perspectives, at least to some people. Outside of the universities, there are no accessible texts on this, let alone media content, so hopefully the Toe podcast will serve as a stanchion supporting the quest for understanding the mathematical fundamental principles.
If you enjoy witnessing and engaging with others in real time on the topics of consciousness, psychology, physics, and mathematics, then check out the description for a link to the Discord and subreddit. There's also a link to the Patreon, which is patreon.com slash KurtJaimungal, if you'd like to support this podcast, as support from the patrons and the sponsors are the only reasons that I can bring podcasts of this quality and depth
as this is now what I'm able to do full time thanks to your support. Speaking of sponsors, there are three. The first sponsor is That UFO Podcast. That UFO Podcast is one of the world's premier destinations for everything related to the subject of UFOs and related phenomenon. Created in May 2020 by Scottish host Andy McGillin, the show has hosted many of the largest names in the UFO community, including Lou Elizondo, Avi Loeb and George Knapp, plus many, many more.
In addition to interviews, regular co-host Dan Zetterstrom joins Andy for weekly news breakdowns bringing you the latest UFO news in a concise and easy to digest format. The discursive style of dialogue is such that it's both entertaining and informative. In fact, Dan and Andy are two people I regularly confer with when I don't understand the history of some particular UFO-related event or for general explanations of what people like Lou have said about the phenomenon. They also helped call and order the list of questions for this episode so adulation should be directed toward them.
The links to that UFO podcast are in the description, or you can simply search, quote-unquote, that UFO podcast. The second sponsor is Ground News. If you're someone like myself who's ever exposed to the unrelenting onslaught of digital media, you've become increasingly skeptical of the veracity of the information you're receiving, particularly with regard to balance, and that's where Ground News comes in.
For every breaking news story, they'll show you which media outlets are reporting on the issue and where they fall on the political spectrum. You can instantly spot media bias, discover stories outside your own, perhaps unrecognized, echo chamber, and attain some clarity, especially in these chaotic times. The ground news website and app lets you compare headlines from left, center, and right sources simply with a swipe.
And their Blindspot feed will show you stories that are not being reported by one side of the political spectrum. Subscribers also gain access to features like My News Bias, which lets you track your reading habits so you can see how factual your sources are, who owns them, and much more. Ground News isn't better news. It's an improved manner of the consumption of news. Download the Ground News app or browser extension to make sure that you're seeing the full picture. Visit www.ground.news.to to demand more from your news. Now on to the third and last sponsor.
UrgentCare.com is a forward-thinking health care company that understands while we all do share the same biology, our personal needs and requirements are uniquely our own. UrgentCare.com has an appreciation and respect and gratitude for any individual or entity that seeks to help the human species.
Without question, Lou Elisondo and Sean Cahill all deserve thanks for helping humanity answer some of life's most important and challenging questions. That statement comes from Urgent Care themselves and I agree with it. Visit UrgentCare.com for convenient health care for everyone. Thank you and enjoy this lengthy, engrossing, and revelatory Ask Me Anything session with Louise Elisondo and Sean Cahill.
Okay, it says that we're live. Now, if you can see this, please type into the chat. Charizard is not overhyped. Charizard is not overhyped. All right, there we go. Okay, thank you, Sean. Thank you, Lou. I appreciate it. And you know me, I like to be efficient and make a great use of our time and the audiences as well. So we'll get straight to the questions.
This one is directed to both of you, and we'll start with Lou. Lou, while you were in the government, and then Sean, while you were in the government, have you ever come across the words Element 115? Did you see it? Did you read it? Did you overhear someone allude to it? So first of all, Kurt, how you doing? You doing good? Good. Doing great, man. Everybody out there in the social media world, thank you very much for having me and spending today's afternoon with me.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind kissing on the first date, Kurt, but I just wanted to first say thank you for having us on here and to your audience for having us. To very quick, today is a bit of a special day for me. My daughter, Taylor, is getting married. She's over in California getting married to
Her fiance, Joe, and he's over in Monterey right now at the Defense Language Institute, learning a language and serving our country. So a huge shout out, if I may, to him. Thank you for Joe, for your service to our nation. We are eternally grateful. And Taylor and Joe, congratulations. Congratulations. Yep. Nope. Nope. Appreciate it.
And Kurt, you're looking mighty spiffy today. Just for you, man. And Sean. We break the ice a little bit. And Sean, thank you for always your friendship and being with me. It's profoundly appreciated.
One last big thanks to all the folks out there who continue to support this effort moving forward. There's a lot of folks in the UK that are trying to do what we've done here in the United States, so a big shout out to them. And finally, a big shout out to all of you in the audience. Thank you so very much for being here with us. It is truly an honor and privilege.
Now that we've got that out of the way, Kurt, let's answer your question about Element 115. No, there is obviously a lot of discussion about it in the Twitterverse and social media, but that was never a part of the ATIP portfolio. Doesn't mean it wasn't part of portfolios beforehand or perhaps, you know, some other efforts that were parallel or tangential to ATIP. But while I was in ATIP, Element 115 wasn't ever really part of any type of discussion. Sean?
I never encountered anything like that. I wouldn't have, even if it were purportedly anything like what it's supposed to be. I've only heard about it in the zeitgeist of ufology from the same sources. Do you all have any reason to believe that UAPs and or what may be behind them may intervene at some point to prevent nuclear holocaust or some large iniquity, for example, with Russia?
I personally don't have any evidence of that. We have a great deal of evidence that they didn't stop the testing of the first device, the use of it twice, and the subsequent testing by numerous nations on the Earth during that period of time, so I don't see why they would intervene otherwise. I don't have any evidence to point towards any kind of motive. I can't even identify who's behind the craft, so getting to their motives would be a very hard, very much longer stretch.
Yeah, I'll go even a little more pointed than that. Look, they did nothing. They didn't interfere with Chernobyl. They didn't interfere with Fukushima. They didn't interfere with the vaporization of 500,000 people during World War II, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. They didn't interfere during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They didn't interfere right now in the Ukraine. So the question is, is there any evidence to substantiate that they're here to stop mankind from
from hurting ourselves. Well, they haven't stopped COVID. They haven't stopped climate change. They haven't stopped World War II, Korean War or anything else. And they haven't stopped world hunger. So, you know, I, it'd be nice if that was a case, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that. What I have seen is evidence to suggest of some sort of ISR intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance of our nuclear equities and technology that we have seen. We've been able to substantiate that and the ability to interfere with it.
But the question is, are they interfering it for good? Well, right now there's no information to indicate that, at least not from my perspective. Do you have any idea what this cataclysm is that people like Ross Coulthart refer to? And if you do, has it been impending? Has it been averted? I think I understand what Ross is talking about. I've spoken to Ross at length privately. I know what Ross is talking about from the side of
the coin where I work and where I'm interested in the subject, I have no connection to it whatsoever other than, as I often say, the pop-site geist ufology. Now that's not to say that I haven't studied some of the same things that Ross has and other people like Grant Cameron and others, that there is a cyclical nature to life on Earth, that there are changes evident in the fossil record and in sedimentary records and things like that. So
There may be a great deal of conflation going on here between what we call the entertainment aspect of the ufology and the need to invigorate a subject and keep people interested in it, vice the actual nuts and bolts again, and the reality of it. Species have gone extinct before. There's no reason to expect that we won't go extinct someday. So when people talk about cataclysms,
I think it's important that we don't conflate them with popuapology. I'd like to leave that to the geologists and to the climatologists and the other people who are making that their specific focus. I'm not sure precisely what you're referring to. Cataclysms have always been part of human evolution. In fact, one could argue we've always been on the verge of a cataclysm at any moment, our species.
There have been historical anecdotes, whether it's Nostradamus or the Mayan calendar or even the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita or anything else, you know, cataclysm, Armageddon, whatever, has always been part of the human
storytelling, and for good reason, because you do have these moments in time where things change so dramatically. Case in point, one could probably point to the last Ice Age, when the Earth was thawing out of the Ice Age. That was a major moment and caused a lot of species to disappear because environments change.
The land bridge, when that was no longer crossable, you isolated certain genetic species from intermingling with each other. It's always been part of who we are and always part of Earth because Earth changes. Look at the dinosaurs. That was a hell of a cataclysm when you had a meteor come down and wipe out 90% of animals on this planet.
That's just reality. I'm not sure that's necessarily something we all need to look at and say, oh, that's coming. We've always been immersed in that. Again, you can look throughout history and see where mankind, in almost every religious text, there is some sort of reference to some sort of cataclysmic event, or that has occurred or will occur, whether it's the flooding stories of the earth and the 40 days of rain,
Or pick your story that we have always been telling ourselves and let things continue to happen. World War III, just another example, nuclear war. It's always right around the corner and for good reason because you have
a lot of things operating in nature that aren't necessarily in favor for a species survival. And so you have to adapt if you want to survive, whether that's climate or because of things we do to each other. That's just the reality of life. So I'm not aware of any particular cataclysm story you're maybe referring to because frankly, you know, pick your story du jour. There's a lot of stories.
Think Verizon, the best 5G network is expensive? Think again. Bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to a Verizon
I don't know. I really like Ross. I think he is a deep thinker.
I really enjoy talking to them actually even about these subjects and throwing conjecture against the wall. But I find myself having a really hard time saying, not to play games, but what are we talking about here? Because if we're talking about climatology or if we're talking about, as we said, sedimentary record and other things like that of what has happened before,
We're throwing in aliens that we can't prove. We're throwing in a historical record that's spotty. I agree that some of these things, when placed on the table together, make a certain amount of sense, but I can't say that the things we're placing on the table make sense by themselves. And so there's a great deal of conflation going on. And I don't want to say that anyone's using their imagination too much, but I think that it would just be my opinion about
a lot of fiction and conjecture that I've taken in over the years, which doesn't really apply in any way, shape or form to the work I'm doing right now. So it's imaginative, and I think it's interesting. But again, I couldn't get there as an investigator, because I'm to an extent making up one of the suspects
And I'm, I'm assuming a story of one of the complainants to arrive to say that a crime has occurred. It's the fruits of the poisonous tree. So it's, it's, um, if we had like a show about conjecture and we wanted to really dig into that, you know, we can get some, get Graham Hancock or another expert, maybe from one of the ancient, uh, ancient architect channels or something like that. I think we could have a really interesting conversation, but it just, uh, it doesn't apply other than to my opinion.
Sure, I'll go also I'll add you know my concern is right now let's just say hypothetically we as a species right now we have the ability to go back in time. My concern is the whole paradox issue right you know there's a saying if I go back and I kill my grandfather well then I don't exist. And so therefore I couldn't go back in time to kill my grandfather so
There's a paradox issue here. And if there's a species that that is for some reason, or us, let's say coming back from a future, and I don't want to say the future, because we don't know if there is, you know, the or perhaps a or multiple. The bottom line is that if you if you come back and interfere with the past, you may very well inadvertently affect your ability to exist in the future and change things irrevocably. And in fact, you may change things for the worse, not the better. So
You know, I think it's certainly interesting to speculate. But, you know, I think that's why it's tough for us to conceive about going backwards in time. I think we can slow down. I mean, nothing relativity time can be slowed down. And it can be potentially even stopped to some degree. But to go backwards is a little bit different. You know, you're asking the river to run backwards and you can slow it, you can dam it up. But to have a river go backwards, it's a little more tough than that.
And so therein lies the conundrum. If you go, the mere fact that you go back in time, let's say hypothetically to your time period, which is what would matter if you went back in time, you wouldn't want to go back to some other parallel universe's time because you're not going to affect your own paradigm. So you have to take it with a grain of salt. And I'm not sure we would want to do that.
Because of the risk you would have to, and then you have the question about matter in the universe, right? So if I take matter from the future and the universe has only X amount of matter, X amount of energy and matter can't, and energy can't be created destroyed. Now I add more matter. How does that affect the rest as it perturbed the existing model of the universe by the mere fact you're introducing more matter into a universe that only has X matter?
And how does that occur? And now does that initiate another potential big bang? These are the questions you have to ask yourself seriously whenever you're providing a theory about time travel. Again, like Sean said, it's fun to speculate, but there's a lot more considerations that one has to consider if that was really possible and would you really want to do it?
Quick editors quitted to here. For those interested in the details, a positive cosmological constant allows for the creation of energy and energy seems to only locally be conserved, not globally. I think we can all take the scene from one of the Avengers movies, I think it was Endgame, where they ran through all the different time travel movies and they were trying to explain, they're all wrong. They're getting it wrong.
And they started talking about real physics and the possibility of alternate realities and alternate dimensions and things like that. But we have to ask ourselves again, if we don't have any personal perception of that, if we can't detect it, again, assigning motive is very, very much just opinion, you know, opinion, we, you know, I don't even know if I have a time machine, or if there's an alien, what his motive is, what he wants,
And just so you know, Lou, you mentioned at one point that the present is thick, for lack of a better word, cigarette burning as the analogy.
And for people who are interested in a more mathematical treatment of that, I spoke to someone named Nicholas Gisson, who gave a formalism to indicate that the present time is thick, that you can't pick out a particular point that as soon as you do, it's almost like honey. So if you're interested in that, I'll put a link in the description. Yeah, no. And we see that very practically in the world of quantum physics and even the expression or the description of an electron. You know, again, for your audience, who's probably my age, remembers in high school, you learn that
electron orbits the nucleus of an atom but in reality that's not what's occurring. We now realize it's called an electron cloud for a reason because of predictability and the fact that the electron can never be isolated in a fixed position you can't do it and in fact some scientists now are speculating that it is because the electron
is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. It is so small that it may literally be zipping in and out through the very fabric of space-time. And so it's nonsensical to try to predict the position of an electron because there is no position. It's everywhere and nowhere at the same time around the nucleus of an atom. And that's some of the observations we're beginning to see now.
Let me add to that, that the past and the future are human semantic constructs. It is always now. It always has been now from the universe's perspective. The past is not something that's sitting next door to us.
And another way people think of things, and we think when we say that the stars are very far away, the lights are a very long time to travel to us. We're seeing the past. Again, that's a metaphor. We're not seeing the past. We're seeing now. And now is those photons are here hitting your eyes, where at one point they were not. And so these are arbitrary concepts a lot of times. So we've applied a linear understanding to something that exists on a much deeper, much deeper spectrum in a lot of ways.
When we talk about going past, going future. And I think a lot of what Lou's talking about is that reality is anchored in now and in the present and in the entropic state that we exist in at this moment. And so there's so many variables to that. And we're jumping to motive. I think that's something we just have to keep in mind.
Yeah, I'll go even a step further, Kurt, too, with that kind of piggybacking off of what Sean said. You know, the whole notion of here and now is almost nonsensical. It's, let me give an example. I asked you, Kurt, where are you? Where are you right now? Let's do a little quick exercise for you and your audience. Where are you right now, Kurt? Let's say Toronto, Canada. OK, where's Toronto? Where's Toronto? I don't know how to answer that. OK, well, where's Canada?
Where's our solar system? Where's our Milky Way? There is no here here. We invent here because we have to live in an environment where we are used to boundaries and borders in order for us for things to make sense. But in reality, the big scale of things in the scale of the universe, the notion of here and now is really nonsensical because it depends on where I am relative to everything else. Here and now only exist
It's like trying to pick out a specific electron from the electron cloud. Everything is moving so dynamically at all times that a location is not a concept even. It's only a location in a certain regional area and you have to have some kind of substrate to measure that against.
And we live in a universe that lacks a substrate. There's no grid, snap tube grid that we can say we've, you know, we're now 14 parsecs northeast to, you know, local globular cluster north. What is the, what's that mean? You know, how would you navigate to that? Um, that, that's something that, that really, that really digs into my head. How would we navigate to a point in the past? You have to figure out its location and space time.
We haven't found space-time yet to be a thing to measure in that way. In fact, if you look at the theory of inflation of the universe during the Big Bang, early parts of the Big Bang and even now as the expansion of the universe continues to get bigger and faster, scientists are now stating that space-time itself is being created and that's why you have this expansion of the universe occurring faster and faster and faster.
And that's when you look at that case in point, let me see if I can bring this to a little bit easier to understand. The universe has been estimated to be almost not quite 14 billion years old, right? And yet when you ask the scientists how big is our visible universe from end to end, they say it's about 94 billion light years across. Well, how can that be? Because that means the universe has to be expanding faster than the speed of light.
not necessarily. What's happening in theory is that actual space-time itself is expanding as well. Think of probably the best way to explain it would be, imagine water seeping up from the bottom of the bathtub and filling up the bathtub. It's filling up from all sorts of little pores. Water's coming out everywhere, not just out of the spigot, but everywhere. It's starting to fill up the tub. If that is the case, then
Again, the notion back to where we are in the universe is always changing. In fact, when you say to yourself, and it's a little bit scary to do, but you say, I'll be here tomorrow. No, you won't. You will never be here again. And you can't. It's impossible because
the entire universe isn't static, it's moving. And the only way to know where you are is only relative to other people and where they are. And by the way, they're just as lost as we are. So, and I don't mean that just figuratively, I mean that physically, you know, we are all kind of, kind of scattered to the winds together. And the only way we can kind of relate to each other is, oh, you're, you're, you're kind of close to me. So I guess relative, you know, you're, you're six foot and I'm five foot, you know, nine and, and, and we gauge things.
We invented time so we know when to meet for lunch tomorrow, but in reality we just observe entropy.
That's okay. I just like to bring things down to a mathematical level for some of the people who are more interested. So the relational view that Lou outlined, you can read more about it in a relational view of quantum mechanics by Carlo Rovelli.
And then this arbitrariness of setting one's location, when Lou was asking me where is Toronto and it's in Canada and then where is Earth and so on, that is called general covariance and that's where the principle of, well, that's where general relativity comes out from. So if you want to learn more for those who are interested in mathematical details, that's what you can look up.
Okay, now I'm curious about the reason for secrecy behind this whole UAP phenomenon. And I'm curious, do you believe that it's profit driven primarily, or that it's so profit driven by the private sector, or profit driven by the governmental sector, or that it's altruistically motivated, like Tom DeLong may espouse or Tom DeLong believes? Are we talking what can we can you identify what exactly are we asking about? What is the
There's much that is covered up about the reason for secrecy. You're asking about what what is you're asking my opinion on the motivation behind it. It's my opinion, just by looking at the simple record that we that we can that we can distill that made front page news that did get reported that wasn't completely redacted. I think we see a great a great deal of shock and confusion. And if we're to assume
that some of what we all assume about crashes and bodies and things like that, if that occurred, we're still debating what that would do to our religions, our society, our culture, our stock market, all of those things. We still debate that to today with a pretty split constituency of who believes that we're ready and who believes that we're not. And I think we can see a natural progression of not understanding something
wanting to understand it before they made it public. But then human nature probably, I can imagine, took over. And so power mongering, greed, idea mongering, you know, thought, if that makes sense, wanting to keep, you know, important ideas to yourself, I can see that that would have happened already. But I still think that the government that I, the military that I worked in, and the government that I operated in and around,
was made of just regular folks like us. And this is an incredibly daunting subject. And so I can see where it would have continually been kicked down the road. That's just my opinion, just from from looking at what's in the public record. What do you mean by that? It would have been continually kicked down the road? No, I've never met anyone who wants to take responsibility for this.
And it's one of the things that made Lou very interesting a few years ago when he appeared was that he was, he had the courage to do it. And he wasn't doing it in the same way everybody else did it. And he wasn't asking for your money. And he wasn't on the same nonsensical, you know, the TV shows, I shouldn't say the nonsensical television shows, the things that are where you sandwich important information in between fiction.
It always leaves a plausible deniability. And Lou doesn't mess with that stuff. It's like, look, here's my record. And now we can see the people that tried to silence him. And so it was very, very different. Where are all the other Lou's? We know they existed. Where are all the other program managers? Where are the foreign program managers? They're not speaking up. There's a lot of simple questions as to why, whether they've been threatened, whether they're under NDA.
But I talk to a lot of people every day who want to help in this subject, very high profile people. But they don't want their names out there yet attached to it. They believe in it, they think it's real. But they're still waiting for that tipping point to where we stop laughing at it, where it stops ruining careers and ruining brands or, or changing people's minds about you as an individual. It's primarily stigma that's keeping them from speaking out non anonymously.
I would say that primarily stigma and wanting to... Let me try to make an analogy here. If I came back to the tribe around the campfire and I brought a power saw, what are we going to use it for? It has a purpose. It's for cutting wood.
But a lot of the folks in the tribe are probably going to want to use it to go take over the other tribe next door, because it's the most powerful weapon they've ever seen. And right there, we may just be talking about human nature. But I think that there's so much of our humanity wrapped up in the answers that we all assume are part of this, that very few people have been willing to take responsibility in any way, shape or form. Lou, what do you believe to be the primary reason for lack of transparency?
Yeah, I'm a little more practical and probably a little bit more less optimistic for our species on this particular question. What if there was knowledge, Kurt, that was so volatile, so earth shattering, that the mere knowledge of that getting out could predicate
an action that could potentially threaten the entire species. Now, what do I mean by that? For just a moment, take off the scientific hat, take off your humanitarian hat, take off your philanthropic hat and put on a hat of national security.
We just talked about the fact that there's no indication that these things have been here to help us. So there's really only three possibilities. They're benign, or if you will, benevolent, or two, they are malevolent, they're here to hurt us, or three, they're just here to observe us and they're capable of doing both good and bad like us. Well,
If you were to put on your national security hat for a second, let's say you're a general from the 1950s or 60s and your job is to protect America and all things good and great and the height of the Cold War and you've got the Soviet bear across there, things are pretty tough, right? And nuclear proliferation is a real thing. Now, you have information that there is something here that can outperform anything you have.
and really anything you have is rather ineffective from a national security perspective. And there's a thing out there, and it doesn't show that it's being benevolent. So it's only one or two other options, either malevolent or it's like us. And we see this very careful ISR surveillance of our nuclear equities. It's interested in nuclear equities. Well,
Some may look at that as what we call preparation for the battlefield. Okay. And let's just say hypothetically, there's a 10% chance you assess a 10% chance that these things are bad or one day they're going to come here in force and they're just, they're, they're, they're looking at us, right? Remember you're putting on your national security hat to forget about everything else for a moment. Your job is to be paranoid. And there's a small remote chance that these things are not good. And maybe there is a plan for these things at some point to come in force in 50 years from now.
And if the mere fact you have this conversation with the American people, what's going to happen? Well, the American people are going to start getting prepared. Well, you know, I can tell you in real life combat situations, when we send in long range surveillance, LURS teams, you know, behind enemy lines, the moment the enemy finds out that we know that they know we're there, the element of surprise is over. And so ultimately,
hypothetically imagine a scenario where maybe we had 50 years to prepare for something, but now that the cat's out of the bag, that existential action will happen tomorrow. And by the way, we're not ready for it. We're not prepared for it. We don't have a countermeasure. We don't have a capability to counter this. And so from a very real perspective, a national security perspective, the mere fact that you are acknowledging the existence of something may predicate an action or an act that you're not prepared to have right now.
And so I encourage you and your listeners to just for a moment, I'm not asking you to be a national security person, but I'm asking you to suspend your personal beliefs right now for just a moment, and put yourself in somebody else's shoes who does feel that way, right? Now what do you do? If the mere fact of talking about this could potentially cause a reaction that you're not ready for as a country, as a civilization,
Right? Maybe that's the reason why you decide to only brief certain presidents who have a background in intelligence. Maybe they were former directors of CIA, but the other presidents who are career politicians will be, you know, they're here today, gone in four years. Maybe you can't even risk telling them. And so maybe the reason why this has been kept secret so long is actually in a weird sense, some sort of sense of patriotism by people. And, and, you know, maybe maybe that's how they justify it. And I'll leave that at that as a, you know, just to
as a counterpoint of forcing people to think maybe a little bit non-traditionally. Now, do I think if that happened to ever be the case, that's a good explanation? No. I still think that we have to be honest with the American people. I've said this before, it's like going to the doctor.
Just because I have cancer, it's bad news. Don't keep that from me. I want to know because maybe there's a chance I can do something about it. But do I understand that mentality? Sure. Nobody wants to give anybody bad news. Now, am I saying that's the case? No, I'm not.
It's just, you asked me one of the reasons why people would want to keep this secret. Well, that's a really damn good reason why people may want to keep this secret because the mere fact of not keeping it secret could cause a reaction that you're not ready for yet. There's nothing you can do. You don't have a countermeasure. So again, from a national security perspective, that makes sense. Again, I don't agree with it, but that's understandable.
What should I do then as someone who? That's a wrong question to ask. Sean can give you advice on that. I can't tell you what to do.
That's my problem. So when we go down this rabbit hole, people want to know what should they do about it. That's not for me to answer. That's for you to answer yourself. I can't tell you what to do about it. I can't tell you what to I can give you like, hey, look, you've been diagnosed with cancer, you should get treatment. But how you get that treatment and who you get it from and how you decide to do it, that's on you, brother. That's not me. It would be overstepping my bounds to even begin
This is where people go wrong in this whole area of ufology and UFOs because they want, well, what do I do about it? And people are really quick to tell them, well, this is what you should do. You should subscribe and you should give me money and I'll teach you how to do this. That's horse shit. No, you figure that shit out. That's you. Don't ask me because I'm not smart enough to tell you what's in your best interest. Only you can make that decision. I'm smart to tell me what's in my best interest.
But I can't tell you what's in your best interest and I won't. And that's overstepping my bounds. I don't know if Sean has a, I'm sure Sean probably has his own perspective, but I'll share it now. I don't think Lou is passionate enough. So Sean, if you could please. For me, it comes down to the fact that, you know, while doing this the last couple of years, I've been offered a lot of opportunity, opportunity that might've been fun.
But it would have tainted everything that I thought was important about this. And it would have confused people. And it would have placed me into a bucket of saying, ah, he's just trying to make money. He's just trying to do this, that, and the other. I've given a lot of thought to that over the years, man. And what motivates me, and the reason that I'm here, and the reason that I'm not saying, what can I do? Lou didn't come up to me at any point in the last four years and go, this is what I need you to do, Sean. That hasn't happened. We've become colleagues. And then we become equals together, working together.
But I had to find my own road for this. And for me, I had to really put a lot of thought into that because at the time that I met Lou, I was teaching meditation. I was trying to lead a very different life. And a lot of the aspects that bump into that kind of thing in UAP are still very important to me. However, that wasn't the most effective thing for me. The most effective thing for me was taking my career as a Master at Arms and as a chief in the Navy and taking the story of my involvement in the Tic Tac event in 2004.
and utilizing that moment in time that we had with unidentified and with a few other things to reach out and have a conversation with people who didn't have a chance to see all that information, who didn't understand that this had occurred and that it was real. And then they began socializing that at a higher and higher level.
until the people that can actually affect actual change were reaching out and they were interested in how we could do things. And as we had progressed along that line, we created a network of concerned individuals. And that's how I got here. Now, a lot of other people out there, they have very specific skill sets. I get contacted by lawyers, I get contacted by software developers and even
manufacturers, diecast folks, and they're like, how can we help? And it's like, I don't need to cast anything. And I can't afford a lawyer. When JFK said ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country, what he was saying was stop. Don't keep asking for answers. You have to find
And I know that that overwhelms a lot of people, but it doesn't have to be huge. You know what I mean? Not everybody's Luke Skywalker. Some folks are doing a great deal of help lifting people up so they can finally press a button or finally grab a gold ring. And if it's a team,
None of that's ever, I'm kind of just pontificating, but none of that's not in a vacuum, man. We have to find out what we need, what we need out of this. It's not a recruitable subject. It's not like we get enough buses full of people and we're going to drive to the thing and we're going to wave a sign and get what we need. It's not quite like that. So, Kurt, you want to know what my number one advice is. And I'm going to let Sean explain this because Sean does a better job than I do. But when people say what they ask you to do, what's the first thing I should do?
Turn to your children, turn to your loved ones and love them. Invest in your relationship with your loved ones and your friends.
start with that and people get mad. It's like, well, what the hell does that have to do with the topic of UAPs and anything else? This has everything to do with it. Because if you don't stop to do that, and realize what's really important in life, then everything else is
Turn around and tell your loved ones that you love them. Remind them that you love them.
And that's that's where you start. But I'll let Sean jump in on that, because he does a much better job explaining it than I do. Lou gave me that. Oh, go ahead. Lou, just a follow up on this. If you can hold your bladder. Yeah. OK. Well, then think about this, because I'm curious, what is it that you tell your children about the phenomenon? You got it. I'll answer that after Sean's done.
When I first met Lou, this was too daunting on the subject. It was too big of a playing field. There were too many details and too much going on. And it was kind of freaking me out, you know, because very early on a few years ago, I accepted that this was real all in a rush and then started doing more research in different areas. Some of this can be pretty heavy sometimes. And I turned to him and I was, I didn't know what to do. And he said, you need to check your foundations.
Basically, what it came down to is achieving world peace while coming from a busted home where people are living in fear or where there's no communication and no love isn't worthwhile. That's not the mission. The mission here is to, I call it, this kind of gets a little woo, but I call it my creations and my covenants. That's what I'm beholden to, and those are my children and my wife.
First of all, and then my circle of family and my circle extends out there to my friends and my family and larger family and things like that. But I am truly beholden to those people in my house, to my wife and children. And I can't ignore them. And that means that I have to choose to be the right person in that house. And that means that I have to choose to look for my faults and to be self-aware and to try to be the best person that I can in that environment, because it is truly where everything else stems from.
If you're not doing the right thing with the people that you love the most that are closest to you, why do you feel the need to mount a horse and ride off on this crusade to change the world? Truly start changing the world where you are and where you begin and then turn towards slaying the dragon. And it makes slaying the dragon a much more logical, much more easy process because your heart's in a state where it knows right from wrong.
And it knows where to go next. It's not bogged down by the worry, frankly, that we all take to work with us every day. You know what I mean? We all get up in the morning wondering about the go to bed angry, wondering about the argument of the kids grades like this. How is this relationship panning out? Are we going to separate? We've all got these things going on. But if we all decided to take the kind of effort that we wanted to apply to ufology, turn around in the short term even, and applied it in our own lives and our homes,
Suddenly these larger battles become much easier. Thank you, Sean. Now, Lou, do you have an answer to that question, which is what is it that you tell your family slash children about the phenomenon? If I need to find their own answers, we're all trying to figure this out together and it's okay to be excited. It's okay to be scared. It's okay to be whatever human emotion you need to ascribe to it.
It's okay. I think honesty and truth is the best remedy always. That will get us through pretty much anything, even when the news is bad, even when the news is good. I try not to think for anybody. Don't try to think for my kids or my spouse or my friends. The only person I can think for is me.
I tell my kids, just be kind to one another, be kind to the world as much as you can, try to give back more than you take. Because I think whether you're talking about UFOs or anything else, that's sound advice. If you want to think about UFOs, well, it depends on how you lead your life as a human being, which is going to take you down the road. Look, there's
There's a lot of people out there that want to hijack the narrative. But it's not just because it's a UFO thing. It's because that's the kind of people they are. They will do that with anything and any opportunity that they're given. UFOs is just one of them. But there are people out there that will try to do that and hijack that. And it's a shame. But I can't change those people. I'm not going to. I'm not going to waste my time changing those people.
They have to deal with that on their own terms. And that's on them. Look, there's bad people. I face them in Washington. I face them on the battlefield. I face them every day when someone is trying to mug you or carjack you or something like that. There's just bad people out there. So anyways, that's my two cents, maybe three cents.
Okay I'm going to get to some audience questions and just so you know the set of audience questions this time is of extreme high quality and that's saying plenty given some of the quality that's been on this channel and much of that's due to
the culling of the questions and the ordering of the questions from that UFO podcast, which is to be specific, Andy and Dan, and they graciously helped me out with these questions. So if you like the theories of everything podcast, and I'm someone who's asinine and sophomore when it comes to this topic, then you'll gain a great deal from watching that UFO podcast and the link is in the description to subscribe to them.
So this question comes from Matriac, directed to both of you. If you could start over and pursue a different educational path with the hopes of understanding UAPs more fully, what degree would you choose? Sean, you want to tackle that one? Yeah. I don't know if the curriculum exists. It's a tough question. There's not one for me that fits it.
I'm a generalist. I'm a student of the human condition. Sorry, it's an interruption. I'll give you an example. Earlier, about a few months ago, when I was speaking with you, Lou, and you gave me the question, Kurt, what if you wanted some thing to survive generations and generations and millions of years? And I said, well, perhaps
nanotechnology or metamaterials and launch it into space. So that's materials engineering. And you said, well, perhaps you should think about DNA. Okay, so that's biology. So those would be two different fields to go in if one was thinking about the preservation of some objects some length of time. Can I jump in on that? I would I would probably start with philosophy. And why is that? Because philosophy is one of the few areas that teaches you how to think and not what to think, right?
In the topic of UAPs, it's not a matter of what, it's how. How do we process the data? How does this apply to our species? Where we're going, where we're from, et cetera. There's very few academic pursuits that teach somebody how to think. Most people, and I can tell you this from personal experience with my children, most schools teach kids what to think. And that's a problem because we've forgotten what real teaching is about.
I can instruct somebody on how to do something, but real teaching, real teaching is something different. A lot of the Eastern philosophies understood that. It's not teaching somebody the specifics. It's teaching somebody how to find the data themselves. And I think I would probably
Start with that, maybe do some reading on people who look at things maybe a little bit differently and are prescribing you what to think, but more importantly, again, how to think. I was going to joke philosopher ninja because frankly, I completely agree with Lou. I don't want to hit a
buzzword by saying consciousness, because a lot of people, that's another conflated term. But philosophy with an eye towards protecting the human race, I think is something that's what I would want. I would want someone who's looking out for all of the people,
who can think deeply and who can arrive at different solutions, because this is a different paradigm. This is not in the rule books. If anything has been other in our experience, it's UAP. And so our ability to understand that is going to absolutely begin in our ability to understand ourselves first. So that when we encounter this thing that is so strange, that it's so beyond our understanding, that we have the
We have the self-awareness to survive that. The old story, do you give a man a fish or do you teach a man how to fish? Feed him for a day or feed him for life. And I think that's what is important here. People should not ask for a piece of fish. Learn how to fish and ask the questions yourself and find the answers yourself so you're not relying on other people to give those answers for you.
Is there another field? So let's imagine that philosophy was underway, you're allowed a double major. I would say probably. Is there a course on comic relief? Look, you got it, you got to keep your sanity in this, you can't lose yourself. I'll be the first one to admit that, you know, there's times I'll call Sean or others that I trust, you know, in the middle of the night, just event and something, you know, can you believe
that you do all this and people are out there just making a bullshit about you and you got to take it with a grain of salt and it's hard. It really is, especially when you're trying to do something really to the benefit of everybody and people ascribe all to your motives and they're out there. I'm not going to go into detail, but it's bad and you got to be willing to
take that kind of heat. For me, I spend a lot of my time cutting my teeth in various bad places around the world. And I'll tell you, in combat, when someone's shooting at you or rocketing you or murdering you, I never took it personally. I didn't like it, but I never took it personally because that's warfare. But this is different when your own fellow citizens are doing things that they do sometimes because of personal bias or whatever.
selfish motivations in some cases that hurts because these are your fellow citizens, right? This is the reason why you went to war in the first place. And now these people are, are, are doing and saying terrible things. Um, you've got to learn how to take that with a grain of salt and not take it personally. And it's tough. It really is Kurt, you know, it is, you know, we're all human beings. We all have emotions. We're all emotional creatures. And I think it's, it's, my advice would be, look, you know,
Go see a comedy. Learn a course in comic relief because you got to keep yourself sane. Otherwise, you will burn out far too early. Shaun? Part of me wants to say game theory, honestly. I want to take your question seriously. I think philosophy.
game theory, an understanding of the martial sciences, and an ability to think with self-awareness, to be a self-aware human being, to be a fully realized human being who has done their shadow work, for lack of a better word, you know, in a Jungian sense, who's climbed through their hero's journey, who knows what those things mean because they are learned enough to try to understand what this life is and to try to find
This next question comes from Jesse Mitchell of American Alchemy and the link to his YouTube channel is in the description and is directed toward you, Lu. How is your background in parapsychology dovetailed with the phenomenon?
Wow. So great question from Jesse. My background in formal education was microbiology, immunology, and paracytology, not parapsychology. But as a lot of people know, I did spend some time in my career working alongside people like Hal Pudoff and whatnot and Kit Green and folks that have been exposed to that side of the US government regarding
paranormal, I guess we can call it. Let me state this first and foremost. Let's not forget everything in science is paranormal until it becomes normal. This very phone here 100 years ago, certainly paranormal. If I say the word parachute, people think of a life-saving device that deploys and helps you hit the ground more with a wump instead of a thump.
If I say the word paramedic, you think of a first responder, someone there who's giving you an IV and maybe saving your life, right? They're all based on the Latin word para, you know, beside or above and then whatever the word is. When you say paranormal, it just means beyond normal. But the associated stigma with the word paranormal really, really paralyzes any further conversation because people all of a sudden will kind of look, they'll cock their head, maybe they'll smile at you a little bit and kind of like, what do you mean paranormal? Well,
I just mean something that hasn't been normalized yet. Everything in science, by definition, again, is paranormal until it becomes normal. Let's not forget that every law and principle we have in science now started off as someone's wacky, zany idea. Look at Galileo, right? They almost killed him for the fact that he proposed that the Earth was not the center of the solar system based upon Copernicus. And yet there were people that even refused to look through his telescope.
Because it was an insult, it was an affront to their preconceived notions. It was paranormal. And here we are now looking at it quite normally. And so I think we forget that Mother Nature has a vote.
Mother Nature is wondrous, and Mother Nature always defies labels. She defies definition most of the time. Every time we try to describe what life is and put it in a nice neat little box, she proves us wrong. She proves us she is paranormal. Let me give you an example. Kurt, when I was a kid, I learned that all life was basically, it was based upon photosynthesis, right? All life.
And it turns out that's not the case. There's animals in the deep parts of the ocean that survive off of chemosynthesis, near black smokers. Then you learn that all life depends on, has to have DNA. Well, now along come things like viruses where we realize, well, it has RNA, it doesn't have DNA, and yet it still replicates and does a lot of things that living things do. So is that life?
Then you have extremophiles that live the deepest parts of high-pressure Antarctic, very cold, very high-pressure ice, miles beneath the Antarctic ice, miles beneath the surface of the Earth itself. In fact, even in the tallest mountains, we find microbial life hitching rides on our rockets into space and frankly doing quite well.
So what does that mean? What does that mean? Well, it means that maybe most of the universe is paranormal. It is just beyond our reach. And our quest is to make the paranormal normal. How does it prepare you for this topic? I think it keeps you humble to some degree.
I think it's amazing. I'm not scared of it. I think it's wondrous. I think the human being is a most profound, complex piece of machinery. And I think there's other aspects to the human being that we're just now beginning to explore. I think life itself. You know, let me ask you this, Kurt, you have quite a big background in physics. So I'm not nearly as smart or well-versed as you in this field. But let me ask you a question. What is energy? What is it? Can you define it for me?
Technically matter is what is a part of a matter field and there's a technical definition for matter that's based on observations. This question of what is then you can ask well what is the number five and then what is anything. Anytime one gives an answer then it's like a child asking why behind that question and that's valid.
Well, my point being is that we have these principles in science such as gravity, such as matter, such as energy, we've described, we even have mathematics to describe how they behave and yet we still don't know what it actually is. What is it? What is it? Yeah, here's a question for you about that. It's something I've been thinking about. What answer could someone give that would be satisfactory? Like, what could an answer be that would make someone say, okay, now I understand what it is? Well, we may be asking the wrong question.
What it is may be nonsensical, because maybe the question is, why is it? It may not be a what. It might be a why. It might be a where. It might be a when, believe it or not. It may not be a what. Let me throw in that folks should be... Sorry, this is going to make me sound really old. Folks should use their dictionary more, because we have so many words in this field specifically that have assumed meanings due to the way they've been used in the past and associated
that color people's judgment on things. For example, if I said to you the occult, that paints something in all of our heads, but at the moment, my right hand is occult. Now, if you don't understand what that word means, you're painting your ignorance with your perception. You're telling me that
We waste so much time with people who go down these assumptive rabbit holes based on what they think words mean and the way that people use them and they assign, they just keep running with it. And I want us to back off on that in the community in general and start using better words. Like we have to explain the word paranormal. Paranormal doesn't mean Ghostbusters. It means the edges of perception. It's that simple. Now some people want to say it means ghosts and goblins and werewolves
I'm just so evidence-based when it comes to this. I love to talk the philosophy, but we do mix the philosophy with the nuts and bolts a lot of times and make far too great of a leap, I think.
Okay, this next question comes from Bill Yates. It's a live question. It says, I have aphantasia. So it means that one lacks a mind's eye, lacks inner sound, feeling, and even hearing. How does Lou, and you Sean as well, think the phenomenon would interact with someone such as himself, such as Bill Yates? I would say perhaps even more intimately, we don't know because
People who suffer from that also sometimes have other abilities that we don't really have because they have a heightened sense in other areas. We know that there are people, for example, who are blind and they can echolocate. They can actually use sound to have in their mind's eye an understanding of the environment around them. Now that seems kind of crazy for us. And yet we see it in nature all the time, whether it's dolphins or bats or anything else.
You know, there are people who who are certainly suffer from, for example, autism, extreme forms of autism, and yet they have photographic memory, they can do incredible extreme mathematical computations in their heads, they can, they're piano virtuosos, right, and have never never had any formal training in it. How is that possible? Well, it's possible because the human brain is, first of all, it's wonderfully equipped, and it's an incredible organ.
But it's, it's, it's, it's still very little understood about the human brain. And, you know, sometimes there's an old, I'll answer your question, but maybe a little bit more succinctly. There was a young student who was trying to learn from the master and the master says, do you, do you now see.
Young student says, no, master, I've been looking for months and months and months at the sunset. You've been telling me to look at near the mountain over the mountain and I still don't see and the master says to the student,
Razor blades are like diving boards. The longer the board, the more the wobble, the more the wobble, the more nicks, cuts, scrapes. A bad shave isn't a blade problem, it's an extension problem. Henson is a family-owned aerospace parts manufacturer that's made parts for the International Space Station and the Mars Rover.
Now they're bringing that precision engineering to your shaving experience. By using aerospace-grade CNC machines, Henson makes razors that extend less than the thickness of a human hair. The razor also has built-in channels that evacuates hair and cream, which make clogging virtually impossible. Henson Shaving wants to produce the best razors, not the best razor business, so that means no plastics, no subscriptions, no proprietary blades, and no planned obsolescence.
It's also extremely affordable. The Henson razor works with the standard dual edge blades that give you that old school shave with the benefits of this new school tech. It's time to say no to subscriptions and yes to a razor that'll last you a lifetime. Visit hensonshaving.com slash everything.
If you use that code, you'll get two years worth of blades for free. Just make sure to add them to the cart. Plus 100 free blades when you head to H E N S O N S H A V I N G dot com slash everything and use the code everything. In order to see, sometimes you have to close your eyes and you know,
There you go. Sometimes you can actually see more clearly by closing your eyes than you can see with your eyes open. In other words, we have preconceptions that could be removed and then that would give us a greater understanding or insight. Yeah, I mean, sometimes our sense is foolish. Look at an optical illusion. An optical illusion is just that where our eyes are telling us one thing, but reality is something different. And in this case, our senses are failing us. Not all senses are necessarily beneficial and they can be fooled. They can be spoofed.
Human vision is just another sensor collection system, like hearing and touching and tasting and whatnot. And we know they can be spoofed. Our feelings can be spoofed, right? You can be betrayed by someone. Our sight can be spoofed. You have optical illusions. Our hearing can be spoofed. You know, we're not perfect systems. They can be flawed. And sometimes filtering out certain inputs, certain data can actually be beneficial, perhaps. Sorry, John, I kept interrupting you.
Oh, no, man, it's okay. Interestingly enough, without any official diagnosis, I believe I suffer from aphantasia as well. I don't possess a very vibrant inner mind's eye, except upon waking from dreams or, frankly, very vivid trance states, where I've taken myself down through meditation to a different place.
For me, that was finding out that the word aphantasia existed to me was very important to understanding myself and my mind's eye and what my personal inner experiences. That led to researching things like interoception, understanding the inner workings of the body and the perception of the inner workings of your body. Something you can do through meditation is to actually start to pinpoint certain places of the body and then start to understand their processes.
But beyond that, I put because of things I've witnessed and experienced, and I'm very lucky to have witnessed and experienced some things in the company of others, especially some of the harder to accept things that maybe some people consider like poltergeist activity or things like that. I've been lucky enough to have other witnesses with me to at least say that we saw that thing. We may not know why or what, but that led me to research paraphernia.
And paraphrania is like having schizophrenia without the bad parts. And I did a great deal of searching down the comorbidity of those things. And I find it very interesting that the phenomenon interacts with human consciousness in a way that can mirror mental illness in some. And it seems that if one perseverates on these ideas without finding validity or answers,
that it may be one of those triggers for mental illness. Now, whether those are parts of our fundamental archetype of our consciousness or not, or whether that's directly due to the phenomenon or not, I can't say. I think all of us has to take the time to go, what's up with me? What's my list of things going on with me? What can I change? What can I understand? And how can I be the most effective human being while observing my own life?
I don't know if that makes sense. I don't know a lot of people that are interested in living their life in real time, if that makes sense. A lot of folks are looking to jump from one dopamine fix to another, fear avoidance, risk avoidance, and pleasure seeking. And a lot of people would say that that in itself is the human condition. And I don't want to say that I'm holier than now or better than anybody just because I want to check out the societal aspect of a lot of things.
We were talking off air Lou and Sean and myself about how how uncomfortable it is at least for myself and many others judging by the comments it can be to study this phenomenon and just consciousness in general and how that's something that almost no one talks about
I have an episode with Carl Fursten, who is a neuroscientist, one of the, if not the most cited neuroscientist, just on this, on how destabilizing and debilitating can be. I'm still recovering from, well, if you want, you can watch that episode, people who are interested. By the way, I consider it to be the most important episode of all the theories of everything podcasts, because it sets a stage and talks about something that you may feel extremely uncomfortable with and think that you're alone, but you're not, and you may think that it's hopeless, but it's not.
Jacob Lizzo from Signals, the YouTube channel, the link to that will be in the description, asks to both of you, let's pretend tomorrow an unidentified craft crashes out in the Nevada desert and you are both tasked with recovering the craft, considering your experience and your knowledge. What sort of precautions would you take? What sorts of technology and human resources would you bring with you to aid your investigation? My experience and knowledge in that
would come from aircraft investigation and aircraft recovery. So I'd first set up a curriculum, so to speak, with my team that spoke about what I had learned about. First of all, when you arrive on a scene, especially of a catastrophic failure of any kind of vehicle, you have to understand that as soon as you get there, you're going to have exposure of chemicals, fuel,
depending upon, you know, what kind of craft it might be, it could be radiated, you know, we had, we had portions of our, of our training that were, you know, what if a satellite came down or something like that in the wrong place. And this was just from, this was from my law enforcement training, because I had traffic accident, aircraft accident, investigator training as well. I would start there, then I would delve into the established program, programs of record that what they studied, well, they studied
radiation, radiative effects of something that appeared to be emitting high energy, for lack of a better word. I would get down to first, the most important thing to me would be making sure that my team got in and got out with everything they came in and got out with, that they were safe. Safety is the number one priority. And
After that, it would be really just dealing with the environmental factors. The people that I would send to do something like that, frankly, I would not send scientists. I would send people that were able to immediately respond to an environment, coordinate off, and then I would call in the scientists.
I'm kind of doing that in real time. I've never been involved with anything like that involving UAP, but I can take what we did with aircraft and maintaining public safety, personal safety of the teams, and I can extrapolate that out to even more stringent safety measures and an even more cautious approach. Because in the end, I would treat it as a crime scene.
We treat, as a first responder, we treat everything like a crime scene because it maintains the evidentiary value of everything. You can't just go stomping through something unless it's to save life or live, if that makes sense. So we wouldn't trump a crime scene unless it was to save somebody else. So I would look out for personal safety. I would look out for ensuring evidentiary value is maintained.
that forensic evidence was maintained under the proper conditions, the chain of custody was maintained under the proper conditions, and that frankly the right people were the ones giving reports. The initial team should be giving data-driven reports, and conclusions and great in-depth forensic investigations would come later.
I would do pretty much the same thing. You know, in essence, and that's probably because Sean and I come from similar backgrounds. But first of all, I'd set up a perimeter to secure it. Then you have to come up with ways to transport it, safeguard it, study it, analyze it, ultimately exploit it. And of course, you're taking precautions. So like, for example, hazmat, how do you transport hazardous material, right? How do you protect your people from being contaminated chemically or radiologically, right? And then of course,
You want to handle it very much like you would perhaps a TSA investigation of an airplane crash, right? You don't know what you're coming up to, so you've got to approach it as everything is potential evidence.
And so I think you don't know what you don't know. There's the big challenge, right? If there's some sort of danger that you're unaware of, well, then you're unaware of it. There's not a whole lot you can do to prepare for something that you don't know exists. So what you do is you approach it in the way that you do know how to approach things that are perhaps similar, again, like an airplane crash. And that's how I would approach it. I'll get right into that, man.
The first guy that walks into the settlement that only has an atlatl carrying a sword, every person carrying an atlatl in that place wants to exploit that sword. They want to exploit the knowledge of the person holding the sword. What is that material? How did you get it so sharp? How is it so strong? Where did it come from? How do I get one?
And that's the job, frankly, of the United States government and the military and other apparatuses. That's part of what they do as part of our national defense. If a MIG crashed in Alaska or any other place during the height of the Cold War,
The exact same team that we're describing would have come in and done the same thing. They would have gotten that evidence, gotten it to a place and said, how the hell does this make work? What frequencies are they transmitting on? How fast does the engine go? What's the load rate, bearing rate of the wings and the weapons pylons? That's what exploitation means. And that's why I say semantically, in a military retrieval sense, it means go get the thing and figure out how it works and figure out how we can make it work to keep our people safe.
And that's what it means. It doesn't mean exploit in the negative sense that we often use with other conversations. You know what I mean? An exploited individual or something like that where someone is using them. Because in this sense, we're talking about material. Material can be used. People should not be used. So material, theories, things like that. That's what the exploitation is. It's an unpacking and understanding.
Yeah, Kurt, there was actually just last week, there was a headline in major news outlets about a crashed F-35 that fell off the deck of a carrier during landing. And the Chinese and the US were in a race to recover it. Now, why do you think the Chinese were in a race to recover a crashed US F-35 aircraft? Well, because they wanted to exploit it. So, you know, that's not unusual. You know, countries do this all the time.
I see. I see. Okay. Euphoric Gur asks to both of you, are you aware of encounters hostile or otherwise where different types of UAPs have been observed interacting with each other? I'll, I'll jump in first. I've said this before and let me, let me emphasize this again. There is a difference between potential threat and hostile intent. Okay.
You know, if there are lots of technology out there that if I misuse it will hurt me. Now, is it the intent of that technology to hurt me? No, it's just a product of me not understanding the technology. The fact that we looked at potential biological effects or consequences in ATIP and are continuing now in this new effort in the law,
shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. Should not be confused as hostile intent. People say, oh, you're fear mongering. No, it's not fear mongering. You know, if I put my hand in a car door and I slam the car door, my hand's going to hurt. Okay, there's a threat I'm going to break some bones in my hands and do damage. Is it the intent of the car to hurt me? No, I just it's my own fault. I didn't understand how the technology worked and I got hurt by it. Right. And so, you know, there is there is information to suggest that
People have been injured by UAP technology. Was it necessarily on purpose? We don't have any information to suggest that necessarily. But then if you talk to people who claim to have personal experiences in this, a lot of them claim to be taken against their own will. Well, from my perspective, that's crime. That's called kidnapping. And then some people claim that they've been touched. Well, that's assault, potentially battery. You see where I'm going with this, right?
I believe this person was referring to the UAPs interacting with other UAPs rather than people.
fighting each other? Are you aware of that? Like different types of them? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I'll reread the question. Are either of you aware of encounters, hostile or otherwise, where different types of UAPs have been observed interacting with each other? So there is, there is, you know, obviously, if you look at some of the old text, and there's something called the Nuremberg incident in Europe,
where there was reports of what seemed to be some sort of dogfight back in the 1600s, apparently. And it was recorded in something called, it was in Nuremberg, Germany. And they had paintings of this, of different rod shapes and disc shapes and what cigar shaped vehicles apparently fighting each other, like in what seems to be some sort of dogfight over time.
I can't say that was the case in ATIP, but there is some historical information. Of course, I wasn't there, so I can't tell you. All I can tell you is that, allegedly, those type of things may have occurred in the past, but we didn't see any of that in ATIP. I was going to say the Nuremberg woodcutting as well. And other than that, I don't have a really good example. And I'm willing to give that one credence. It's an excellent. It reads really well. And when you look at the woodcutting,
It's very easy to conflate it with modern reports. It's a very interesting story. I'd love to know what really happened. I don't know. But in general, I've never encountered that in my own work and in my own
I mean, there's historical even in religious texts, right, where you talk about the Vimana in Hindu texts that would fight each other. And even some Mayan texts as well of different crafts engaging each other. There was a very interesting stone that I had the privilege. I have some pictures, actually very interesting pictures.
that I took in Peru in front of the Air Force Intelligence Office in Lima, Peru. They actually have a formal UFO program that is run by the government and they do very well with it actually. It's a formal investigation that they do of any reported UFO incidents. And there in front of the Air Force Intelligence building are several stones, Inca stones,
And these are real legitimate Inca stones. Well, I got to tell you, you should look at some of these stones because it's pretty incredible. Some of the things that these stones are depicting really got you scratching your head like people using telescopes, which by the way, didn't exist back then. And flying vehicles that have fire beneath them and what appears to be a tail gunner and the stars and the moon and
I mean, someone obviously had a pretty good understanding of the earth being round as celestial bodies a long time ago to make these stones. And it's very interesting. Is that proof positive or evidence of anything? No, it could just be someone's wild imagination. There is lots of that out there, but it could be something else too.
Okay, this question comes from Miles Coller-Reathen. If I'm mispronouncing that, I apologize. It's directed to both of you. Are you aware of attempts to make contact with UAPs? And if so, what were the results? Are they still taking place? I'm not aware of it. I'm not aware of any official programs like that or efforts like that. I have spent a great deal of time studying all of the different
contact groups around the world to include various mediums and so-called channelers that claim to be in contact with various and sundry alien civilizations that they have all of this deep knowledge about that I can't verify any of it. And when I take each of these
I would ask you to find contact.
What does that mean, contact? Does it mean sitting down having a beer? Does it mean making yourself known? Does it mean conversation? What does contact mean? People are aware that there were efforts by the US government to collect more information on these things. But what do you mean by contact? Do you mean like close encounters where we sit down and we have coffee together?
We talk about things or are we talking about contact being just the providing of evidence proof that that they're real and that we want more to collect more information? You know, yes, there were efforts to try to try to collect additional information, maybe create a scenario or the environment where perhaps these things would show up. And in so doing, we could collect information that was at contact. Well,
Some could argue, yeah, that's a form of contact. You know, it's like, like, like people said, we communicated. Well, that depends. What's your definition of communication? When, when I'm, when I'm waving to you from across the room, I'm communicating. I mean, I'll be communicating to verbally, but I'm communicating to you. When we scramble an F-22 to go intercept a Russian bear off the coast of Alaska, we're not talking to them, but we're communicating. Make no mistake. We're communicating in a tent. So again, when you say contact, um,
That's a bit broad. I need that more narrowly defined in order to answer that question properly. Sure. I'm sure you've heard of a disk that's been sent off into space and it has two people. I don't recall the name of it. It's on the Voyager Pioneer probes. I can't recall which one. Right. Okay. So that was Earth's attempt at trying to communicate with whoever is a civilization that may not share our language. Has something similar occurred between
Let me ask you a question, Kurt. Why do we make the assumption that an exterior force is going to make communication with a governmental agency or entity? And again, why not communicate in a fashion
that was hard to ignore. You know what I mean? But instead these seem to be, pardon me for using the word, but clandestine and piecemeal when it comes to interaction with the public. And if what Lou's saying is that it's possible that we may have created an environment that was conducive to them wanting to appear, for lack of a better word,
Again, it still speaks of a missing piece here. Let me say this, and I'm not indicating that I want to use deadly force, but in my training, when we learned about deadly force, we learned about the deadly force triangle years ago, and that included opportunity, intent, and capability. Now, we know that these craft have a great deal of capability, and their capability seems to open up a great deal of opportunity for them.
But the question is still the intent. And communication, as we said, I communicate with my dog every day. I think she and I have very different ideas of what we're communicating to each other and what it means. And so communication is a very broad word. Waving at a cow is communicating for me. But the cow may not perceive it that way. It may not even know that it was communicated with. So seriously, finding a common language, finding a baseline for this,
is, is we have a lot and I'm not downing your questions. They're the same questions I haven't, you know, and I asked them and me and my friends talk about the same stuff around the fire and I'm just being cagey because I'm on a podcast. But the fact is, is we just don't know a lot of this stuff, you know, so I do really try to be careful with with stating my opinion on some of this stuff, because my opinion has changed a lot over the years based on the data, based on my own personal experience and growth. And so it's a
Are you aware of psychedelics being used as a channel of communication?
Dennis is doing a lot of great work down south, I believe in Central America, and setting up an institute and a college to study these things, their effects in a pragmatic, scientific and fashion utilizing control groups and modern therapy. I think that's very important because it is the undiscovered country of human consciousness is to go down the rabbit hole of loss of self, frankly.
Now, does that tie directly into what we see in the skies and what we purport to and what we hope might have crashed? Pardon me for hoping a crash on anyone, but hoping that there might be evidence. We all hope that eventually someday we might find that smoking gun we all talk about that gives us clarity. But I still don't know if the spectrum we're looking at, I feel like our needle goes all over the place all the time.
Because we're using a word like phenomena, and I think that's important. I think the facile idea that we have taken the word UFO and replaced it with some new, no, we used a better word. Because most of the stuff that I am encountering, regardless of whether it's unidentified or an object, it's certainly not exhibiting flight characteristics, and that just gets under my skin.
We need folks to get out of that muck, get up a level on some of this stuff. It really opens up new doors of thought. It opens up new possibilities as to what we're working with when you start looking at it differently and not in the science fiction and as you've been told aspect.
I agree. And we need to be more accurate with our terminology, right? This goes back to what Sean was saying in the beginning, as far as our lexicon, you know, please, you know, be accurate when you when you speak, because it you know, what words have meaning, and a lot of people just kind of throw words around. And, you know, they're not really doing their due diligence, understanding, and it confuses things. And, you know, we have to be accurate. That's why science is to where it is today, because it involves accuracy.
math, right? You want to be accurate when you're describing things like this, especially something that we don't know, be accurate in the unknowns. And I think that's, you know, Sean said it perfectly, you know, you have flight as a fundamental, you have four fundamental forces, you have thrust, lift, drag, and weight. And when you understand those, you have flight, you have control surfaces, you have wings and rudders and ailerons and elevators. But we're not seeing any of those associated technologies.
Yeah, I like to say on this podcast, there's this word that people say with denigration, it's a quiddity. Now quiddity means it's a hair splitting distinction, but it also means a peculiar essence, an odd feature in eccentricity.
something that sets it apart. And so I'm a fan of delineation of taking what is like novel things. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So beautiful. This man, some of these questions are so great. This one comes from Chris pass. In the prior toe interview, Lou asked Kurt about making something that would last a million years and Kurt said metamaterials harder than diamond Lou reminded him of natural forces that constantly reshape the earth destroying information. So Lou then mentioned the moon and the lack of
Well, certainly that was part of NASA's curiosity and same with China now with their little rover. We're always looking for signs of
of something beyond us. This is why we are exploring the planets in our solar system. This is why we are looking for technosignatures in our galaxy. This is why we send things out like the Voyager and the Pioneer and these space probes out there because we want to answer the fundamental question, are we alone? And certainly it makes sense if you don't have the erosive forces like you have here and the
the ever-changing environment, whether it's through tectonic movement or through water, wind, rain, all the things that grind mountains down to deserts. Those are very powerful forces. If you wanted to make something last forever, there's a few ways to do it, but you got to think outside the box to do it. Don't think about it from using the...
If you can paint with any palette then you don't have to be stuck with the palette that's in front of you to paint and nor the canvas quite frankly. So I think certainly we live for archaeological evidence here on our own planet for ancient human presence. I think we're doing that now with NASA. That's what these rovers are for and don't be surprised
If at some point in the future we substantiate that there was intelligent life perhaps on other planets and moons and whatnot, and it may not just be here. We know that Mars had an atmosphere. We know that it had a geomagnetic field around it protecting its atmosphere at one point. We know that there was water on the atmosphere. Now, does that mean all life is sustained by water? No, it doesn't. Maybe here on this planet, but
We do know that that amino acids have been carried in from from meteors coming into into our atmosphere and our planet, amino acids being the building blocks for for life. So, you know, I think I think we shouldn't be surprised if at some point we have that confirmation that that a lot of people speculate, you know, maybe there. OK, Sean, do you have anything to add to that? No, I thought that was pretty succinct.
Colonel Korn asks, is there anything about our moon that we should know about that we don't know? Everything we don't know. Exactly. I'm not going to get my hackles up, but I'm going to say this. A lot of these questions, there is something. There's a lot of people here that want that sound like they're trying to prove a line of thought that they're interested in. And I understand that. But a question like,
What do we need to know about the moon that we don't know? My answer is everything that we don't know. Next question. Exactly. Exactly. Everything that we don't know. Webstar Rises asks, do we have a direct DNA lineage with the others? It's fun to speculate, but I've got zero evidence either way. What we do know is that we have a lot in common with not only a chimpanzee, but a banana.
Adam X asks, in a recent interview, Lou stated that he just finished a trip to Washington and that quote unquote crap is going to hit the fan soon. Can he elaborate on this at all? What does that mean? There's a lot happening. There's a lot happening. The conversation has definitely shifted.
and more information is becoming available almost on a regular basis. I'm not prepared to go into any type of specifics right now. It will become evident. If there's one thing that's hopefully been clear to people every time I say the conversation is going to shift,
and new stuff comes out, it does. I don't say that because the last thing I want to do is over promise and under deliver. I'd rather under promise and over deliver. But the conversation is occurring. And that's about all I can say right now for that because it would require other people to step in and comment that I'm not in a privileged situation where I can share their
their comments or opinions on it. Sean, what do you think? I got to be careful, I say. No, Lou and I go on podcasts because we want to communicate. We want to be involved in a conversation. But especially in Lou's instance, we need people to understand that when we have something to say, that's when we're going to have something to say. We're not in the podcast business.
We're not professional interviewers, and frankly, every time we do podcasts, it takes us away from the work that makes the progress. A lot of people have wanted us, they say, we want you guys to get more involved. We need answers. Well, we don't have the answers that you desire. We have information that we have accrued. We have relationships we have accrued. We have things we're trying to change. We have a world we're trying to change. But at this point, it's becoming less and less
valuable for us to spend our time doing these things when there's so much more that we can be doing on in what people call behind the scenes outside of ufology away from from the public eye of this and i just want to say that people have to ask themselves what they want do they want to be entertained or do they want change it's it is truly that simple because we don't have and and this is not a
This is not me striking out, but we don't have time to entertain folks. We don't have time. A lot of these questions, I understand they're interesting questions. They're questions I ask myself. But for the time we have today, they're not, and for the work that we work on, they're not valuable. They're not additive at the moment to the work that we're doing. They end up muddying the water a great deal because what we're dipping into is a lot of questions about
various books and beliefs and ideas in ufology, not what's on the record as evidentiary value. And I really want to stop asking or answering questions about what do you think of so-and-so's book where he had an idea? I don't think much of it. It's his idea. And I could say that for a hundred other folks, because Lou and I can't afford
to sit around the campfire and have a just speculative conversation, because frankly, people assign meaning to our opinions. That's I'm tired of that. And so I want to see a place where we can have a conversation that is additive. I know people want to know what we think. It's not important what Sean Cahill thinks. OK, it's not important what my opinions are, because I think my opinions are garbage. It's important what your opinions are at home.
I try to distance myself from that, Kurt, as much as possible. There's so much speculation in this field and everybody pushes it off as fact. It's one of the reasons why I just don't engage. I'm getting to the point, I'll tell you right now, I'm going to start doing a lot less. You're going to notice a huge, I'm going to do a few more to finish up my obligations, but I'm not doing these much longer. This is it. Reason is because
I'm not sure I'm being very helpful at this point. I'm helpful behind the scenes, but being like this in public, all it does is serve to divide people when really my intent was to unite people, bring them together. But the, I don't have time to focus
the he said, she said bullshit. I don't care about it. Never have. I never will. And you want more of the same than go back to the last 70 years of bullshit because that's what people think you are. They think you're full of shit because you talk about wacky stuff. You've got no evidence. And because he said he wrote a book on something, what does that mean? It means nothing. You got to show evidence. Where are the bona fides? Where are the videos? Where's the reports? Where's the discussions to Congress and the classified briefings?
They're nowhere because I haven't seen them on the hill when I'm there. I haven't seen them in D.C. when I'm going by the Pentagon or anywhere else. They're not those meetings. So for me to come out and when I, you know, historically, I've always tried to share information and be as transparent as possible. But I think we're reaching a point now where I think people have what they need. I don't think they need Lou Elizondo coming in and feeding them information anymore. You know, and if and if they want to go back to the way you followed, you wasn't being my guest. I'm not stopping you. I don't give a shit.
That's on you, but you're not going to stop me from doing my pursuits because I'm taking this very seriously.
When I first came into this, people told me, oh, ufology eats its own. I'm like, what the hell is ufology? Let me know what that is. I'm not a ufologist. I never have been, I never will be. So stop wrapping me into that. I am not into a ufology. I'm not. In fact, it was up to me. I'd blow it up into a million pieces, as I said before, and hopefully what coalesced would be something far more scientific, far more objective. I don't know, man. I want us to build, to be additive. And people keep calling me and going,
Can you prove this? Can you prove that? Can you prove this? And it's like, we already did. We already did. Every week, it's the same crap. And so I want to know why that's the thing that ufology itself is so interested in. Why do they want to know what's in my garbage? Why do I have to make my fence taller and putting cameras in my house? Why am I getting people knocking on my door thinking I have secrets? I don't have their secrets, man. And that's something I don't think people understand.
This isn't a movie. We may be seen as larger than life by other people, but I'm this size. I get up in the morning, I do all the same things we all do. I feel like crap and I should exercise more and eat better and I don't. I'm a real person. I'm not a figure. That's something the public does themselves. I'm not even a subject matter expert. I'll go out on a limb and say that myself.
because we don't have an established curriculum in this. We choose our subject matter experts by how they perform. And so far, ufology has chosen subject matter experts that make them feel good, that tell them the story that fits their memory, their experience, their favorite flavor, their favorite story. And all of the research that I've done, I can't find one person out there that I would go, let's get them on board. They could help us. They're so, because everybody I talk to goes,
It's the Zetas, right? I'm like, man, no, there's, I don't know. I don't know what a Zeta is. I got a book at home with 175 different alien species listed out in it. And it's sponsored by MUFON. And it's the most ridiculous bunch of science fiction I've ever seen in my life. And I'm like, why did MUFON put their name on this? Those are, I know MUFON people as individuals, caring, pragmatic, dedicated.
investigators, some of them are amateurs, some of them are professionals, again, like us, own money, own time, own effort. Why would they expose themselves to Zeb's cornucopia of alien jackasses? I don't get it. How do we break off from the nonsense? Because I can't do it anymore. I know Lou can't do it anymore. I would throw that question back to you and your audience.
How do we change this? Let me see if I understand this because I don't want there to be a misunderstanding by the people who are watching. You're not upset at the people who are asking questions, nor are you upset at me, nor are you. No, we're not even upset.
Yeah, about that the types of questions indicate that the UFO community at large is either misguided or misled and their opportunity costs as well. So they could be focusing on something that you feel like is more productive. Let me if I can reiterate, this is not the frustration by Sean and I are is definitely not directed towards you or anybody in your audience or the person asking the question. They're legitimate. And they're good questions. What we are frustrated with is is the
habitual tendency to go back and discuss things that are not only not relevant, but have been implanted as falsehoods to begin with by people in the past. And these things continue to resurface. Well, okay, that's fine, Lou. We're talking about potentially another incident from an F-35. But what about the reptilians? What does it have to do with reptilians? Guys,
We're not talking about reptilians, man. I mean, stop, please. Try your best to remove whatever you may have learned in the past about this and say, well, I've been researching this for 30 years. You know what? You've been researching fiction. So a lot of this stuff has been fictionalized. You're not an expert in reading someone else's book. That doesn't make you an expert. I'm sorry. And so you've got to learn to approach this a little bit more objectively.
And this is why we are loathsome to offer our position and perspective. Because at the end of the day, I don't want to be guilty of the same thing. It doesn't matter what Lou Elizondo thinks. It doesn't matter what Sean thinks. It matters what you think. Here's the data. Here's the facts. You figure it out for yourself. What this means to you, what to your religion, your culture, your philosophy, your psychology, sociology, and everything else in between.
How you identify with this information is up to you. It's not my job to tell you what to think about. My job is simply to provide you the information and the evidence and you figure it out for yourself and your family and your friends and however else you want to do it. But don't superimpose that on me. Please don't do that. I don't do that on you. Please don't do that to me because it's not fair and I think it's a distraction to the bigger conversation we're having. I cannot
Every time I look at social media, I am blown away at how people behave and treat each other and the self-delusion. I mean, I have people that are making up entire conversations they've had with me that I've never spoken to the person in my life and they're going around and it's not healthy. And then those require numerous tweets and backpedaling and it seems like that's the desire.
certain folks is to make sure just like a lot of folks would observe in our own society that if you create enough chaos it creates a system that you can exploit and that will be self perpetuating and at this point and curtain i'm not i'm not accusing you of this i'm not accusing your audience of it i'm just i'm just taking a chance at this point to say the bathroom real quick by the way go ahead i'm not talking out but i got i can't use the bathroom this is this has been really tough for us because
It's a tough decision to decide whether or not to participate at the level that folks want, because we want to keep talking to everybody. You know what I mean? But I'm not getting any work done when I do this. So I'm not attacking you guys, your audience. I didn't feel attacked. I have a feeling some people would think you were attacking, so I wanted to clear the air.
A lot of people are triggered very easily. A lot of people get very offended when they don't hear what they want. I'll come out and say that. People in our community, our larger community, have some pretty skewed expectations. They have an immense lack of... Those who didn't serve in the military have no clue what it's like. Those who haven't worked in government service have no clue what it's like.
I had somebody recently ask me, do you have any, any pay stubs that say you did the following? I'm like, man, my pay stubs say USM for the last 20 years. I was in the United States Navy. They never said chief petty officer or interrogator or, or, or, you know, police officer. And we spend a lot of time answering dumb questions like that. People don't even know what they're talking about. I'm going to put it just like that. I'm not talking about your audience. I'm just taking a chance to say why we're frustrated with some stuff.
Because I would love. I mean, we talked about having a couple of beers and having a groovy, you know, kind of esoteric conversation. But I got to say that the way that some of these have been formed is I don't believe in gotcha questions. There aren't gotcha questions. There's gotcha people. There's people that get got and don't take the time to answer a question utilizing their acumen. Or there's people that, you know, that take their time through it. But are they useful? And we're just encountering so much non additive
Um, interaction at this point, because we're saturated, saturated with interviewers, saturated with, you know, with questions and stuff. And so for me, that I just want to get across to people that we're, we're willing to work as hard as possible, but it's at some point we have to decide whether our work, the work that we're doing is, is, um, is additive. That's the word that I use most often. So it could, I'll tell you too, if I, if I can,
Be very mindful that even yourself, we're doing this show right now, we're talking to you and your audience. There are people that are trying to sabotage or hijack this conversation. Use this conversation we're having with you to push their own agenda and their own narrative. Right now, you're seeing it live on your chat. People that have ulterior motives and agendas,
and are looking to construe and misconstrue information. And the very thing that we are against, you're witnessing it right now. It's happening right now as you and I are having this conversation. And it's happening because people are taking advantage of this to push a narrative or an agenda.
And I think that's disappointing. I think it's exactly what Sean and I and others are opposed to who take this topic very seriously. We're not trying to create a Jerry Springer environment. And sadly, as it is, you're witnessing the very thing that we're against happening right now, right now on your chat room as we speak. And this goes exactly to the point I'm trying to make. People aren't interested in
in a discussion. They're interested in drama. They're interested in the soap opera. And I don't want to be involved in that. You want to do that, beat that. But I've got more important shit to do than to be part of that. That he said, she said crap. That's not what I'm interested in. And if that's what other people are interested in, spend your time doing that. But
Please don't waste my time because I'm not into that. I've got far more important priorities on my plate than to jump into a virtual mosh pit with people who aren't interested in really doing anything, accomplishing anything. All they want to do is sling mud. That's certainly their right and privilege if they want to do that, but don't involve me. I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in real
discussion, elevated conversation, treating people with dignity and respect, not the dog pile that we're seeing. Unfortunately, this topic seems to bring out the best and in some cases, the worst of individuals. We beat that horse to death. I mean, I know that I'm the one that led it into the stable.
What is the environment that they refer to when they're saying that they created it to attract the phenomenon? Remember earlier when we were talking about communicating? That's a great question.
You know, I'll answer this generally. I think a lot of people already kind of know what I'm alluding to, but we've known that there have been interesting correlations between nuclear technology capabilities, whatnot, and UAP activity. So clearly, if you can create an environment where you can potentially attract these things, then you can probably collect more data on these things. And so therein lies
part of the key if you can create a situation where maybe these things come because they're interested in what you have, then you can you can collect information. That's about about as much as I'm prepared to say right now. But I think a lot of people kind of know historically, if you look at Robert Hastings book, the nukes and UFOs, you know, it's there's a lot of compelling data in there. Sean, you have anything to add to that?
Nick D says, over the time frame that you researched and investigated UAPs, did you see the UAPs improve, like faster speeds, more daring maneuvers, capabilities over time? In other words, is there evidence that their technology has advanced?
It's one of those, it assumes that I have observed, it assumes a lot, but nope, not in my lifetime. I can't even say what their technology truly does. So it's a hard question to answer. Yeah, same to me, nor with me. I haven't seen any indicators that their technology has changed or necessarily improved. A lot of the observations we see now are the same ones that were made in the, quite frankly, in the 60s and even the 50s.
Blaine Totarian asks, in the GQ interview, Lou, you mentioned that a pilot experienced 30 minutes go by on his watch, but only consumed five minutes of fuel in his jet. Did you happen to find any corroborating evidence in the form of fuel log discrepancies or chronographic anomalies on the jet? Any tips for forming a FOIA request on this? Yeah, there's actually been several experiences like that reported by eyewitnesses, military sources.
There's one very compelling, I won't say the person's name, but he was on a mountain top.
and felt like just a few minutes went by and five hours had gone by. This is the whole missing time. The observation that some people report to have that what appeared to be just a few minutes in reality was much, much longer. And there's also a lot of reporting from foreign pilots as well and foreign military personnel. So this isn't just a US thing. There's other individuals who have experienced this as well.
The problem is very hard to reconcile because at some point, human observation is subjective. I think we have to be careful. I think it's a data point, but as Sean likes to say all the time, at the end of the day, it's just a data point. It's in the collection of many, many data points that allows us to create a much more comprehensive picture.
So I'm always careful not to just use a single data point. And that's why from the perspective of ATIP, the observables were so important because you had five distinct, actually six distinct observables that when put together painted a very compelling picture. You know, one could say, well, we have hypersonic vehicles or we have vehicles that can do instantaneous acceleration or low observability, but we don't have one that can do all five.
And so that's when it becomes very compelling. And the same thing with the biological effects. In this case, if you have missing time, then that is potentially a biological or a psychological effect. And that's something that you now see in the law. We have to report on biological effects.
Recently, this is a question that I have. George Knapp revealed that Area 51 has a multitude of names like Paradise Ranch and The Ranch and Red Square. I wrote a couple of them else down. St. Elsewhere, Home Plate, Homey Airport, the site. So have you heard of these and can this information be used for a FOIA request? Kurt, I lost you entirely here. For some reason, my headphone went out for a second. Can you repeat that again? Worst comes to worst happens again. I'll switch to these ugly things.
George Knapp revealed that Area 51 has many names. Paradise Ranch, The Ranch, Red Square, Home Plate, etc. Have you heard of these? I assume that these were governmental names. So I'm curious if this information, if it can be used for a FOIA request. And also, why do you think it has so many names? Doesn't mean that there are multiple government organizations operating there.
I think all information can be used for FOIA. We have names for New York, we call it the big city, we call it the big apple, we call it all sorts of things, right?
Organizations over time give names, some of it's for real reasons like OPSEC, we call operational security. If you want to keep saying people that were in the CIA, I can say this, but everybody will say, oh, he went to the farm. The farm is, it's not really the name of it, but that's what you call it. Same thing with Area 51 or Grim Lake or whatever non-dejour you want to use.
There's lots of reasons why people do that. Some of it again is for true operational reasons because you don't want to use something's real name and you want to use it in conversation and somebody who's also read on to something you can you, let's say, Kurt you and Sean and I were part of a program.
And you can't ever say the program's name. So you call it something else, you know, hey, we got to go talk about the elephant tomorrow. And elephant being, you know, a code word for the program. Right. And so those are the type of things that are quite common, especially in the military, when you're talking about military facilities and organizations.
It's super, super common. For example, when I was in the army in South Korea, you have the second ID, the second infantry division up on the DMZ, but we called it the Deuce. Was it that its official name? No, but everybody referred to it as the Deuce. It's quite common. Sean, you got any? I'd say boil what you like and see what you get back. I mean,
I would ask them if they have any interest in what area 1 through 57 are called as well, because all of those test ranges exist too. I mean, I don't know what the exact number is, but area 51 was not picked out of nowhere. It's a grid marker. And is it a test facility? It would seem that that's been acknowledged during Bill Clinton's administration. Aerial photos came out for the first time, and that's how we got into the idea that area 51 was even a real place.
and that it was a test range. But past that, I can't, I don't know. I appreciate George's work. Don't get me wrong. I would never in a million years down anything. George is incredible. He is an edifice to this subject. He is one of the most valuable intellects and archives and has some of the best understanding of anyone around him. So I think that if George Knapp found a bunch of names that were associated with the Nevada test site,
If you are into FOIA, I think that's a good person to look to to find keywords. But beyond that, I don't know what Area 51 does beyond test aircraft for Nellis Air Force Base. And yes, I know that there are certain terminals and airlines and all these other things that like to go back and forth. But again, stories. I don't have proof. If I had proof, I'd call you up and we'd have a really cool show if I was like, look, bro, I got proof.
This question comes from Cyprian Siginic. Among all the UAP incidents you've investigated, which one stands out to you? For me, it's the 2004 Nimitz tic-tac incident because we have the most comprehensive multispectral data on it. Do we have access to all of that?
But we at least have the rational stories, or excuse me, anecdotes, and a certain paper trail to follow that says that those tapes were taken. And so the first thing that says to me is in 2004, there was a program running that was ready to respond to incidences like this, at least to debrief and retrieve ELINT data. But that's all I know. But to me, that's the most interesting because we can nail down the most
the most comprehensive pieces of an investigation that something worthwhile occurred, and that there's more information out there that we could get on it, we could clarify if we had that information. We would know a lot more. I say multi-spectral, I want to be careful. When I say that, I'm saying multi-point.
So to me, that's the most interesting one. Granted, I was there. I don't think my eyewitness account is the most interesting thing of it. I think it's way towards the bottom of the list. It's completely unprovable. But that's my one. I'd be interested to hear what that is to say. I said before, it's like choosing my favorite kid, right? I love them all. I find something interesting in every single of the
incidents that I've been privy to. Some are very, very compelling. Some are a bit more anecdotal. As I've said before, I can't provide more than other than saying there's a 23-minute video that's really, really, really compelling. Those are the ones that leave you really scratching your head saying, what the hell did I just see? My hope is that some of these incidents become more and more
prevalent, and people in office, particularly Congress, are successful in getting some of this stuff declassified, that some of the more compelling videos and incidents will become more public knowledge. And then you can have that conversation, right? Then I can ask you the same question. Which one is your most compelling incident? Right now, there's so many of them, and some of them are just truly baffling.
Unfortunately, most of it I really can't talk about yet in the public sphere, which for me is very frustrating. Sure. Which one stands out that you can talk about? Would it be the Nimitz as well? Well, the Nimitz was certainly one of the most comprehensive investigations. That thing went on for a while. There were several investigations. There's a lot of documentation reporting on it. A lot of it was made public.
I think it's certainly one of the gold standards for the US government as far as investigations. But there's a lot more. Chris will tell you the story about him seeing an email from somebody, this very senior ranking person in the Navy, basically saying, I got these things all over my ship. What do you want me to do?
I can't keep people below deck forever. People are going to see these things. What do you want me to do about this? Because it's very prevalent, and this won't be able to be kept secret for very long. So that's an example of just sheer frustration. In some cases, you're like, we've got to get a handle on this. We really do. We've got to figure this out.
This is about the ocean Casey Price wants to know regarding USO, so Unidentified Submerged Objects. Have you seen underwater photographs or video that support that they exist?
Well, first of all, photographic evidence underwaters is a much different story than photographic evidence in the sky. Okay. First of all, water is opaque. Water is very dense. Light doesn't travel very well. In fact, in a very crystal crystal, I'm an avid scuba diver on a crystal clear day and some of the best Caribbean waters in the world, your visibility is maybe 120 feet if you're lucky. And that's not really that far. If you think about it, you know, it is when you're diving, but but
It's not really that far. So we have to rely on other technical means to, if you will, see virtually underwater. We use things like sonar.
We use very much like we talked about earlier, the same principles that dolphins use to echolocate. We do that as well using submarines and ships and we can see below the water virtually. We're not actually seeing, but we are creating an image, a virtual image that allows us to see the bottom of the ocean and what's in between, whether it's through side scanning, sonar or other means. The problem is that
Sound also travels only at a certain speed underwater. Sonar can only pick up and be used to pick up objects that are going at least as fast or slower than the sonar signals. Otherwise it outruns it and you never catch up. So there's limitations. And that's why you have the quote unquote silent service of submarines, why they're so stealthy, because
Here you have basically something the size of a skyscraper underwater that no one ever sees because it's hard to see underwater. Now, does that mean we have technical data beyond just images, for example, what you might see underwater? Yeah, there seems to be some pretty compelling information down there to suggest that UAP may also be related to USOs and that the two may in fact be very, very much related.
and that objects that are flying in and around our skies who are flying, that's not really the right term, but in and around our atmosphere may also have the ability to perform similarly underwater. And this is where the transmedium travel piece comes into as far as the five observables. Things that have the ability to fly with the same performance characteristics in our atmosphere as they can underwater and possibly even in space. We do have technologies that are transmedium.
For example, a seaplane can fly and it can also float on the water, but let's face it, a seaplane isn't really a good aircraft or a really good boat. It's a compromise because in order to operate in more domains or more environments, you have to accommodate more things, more considerations, and there's always sacrifices, performance sacrifices associated with that.
And that's why you would never expect a seaplane to fly like an F-22 or operate like a submarine because it just can't, it's just too much. And yet that's precisely what we're seeing here in some cases with these UAP. In the Navy, we have a term called scuttlebutt and it's something that in general, the leadership tries to cut down on scuttlebutt, but it's rumored.
And so what I'm about to give you a scuttlebutt because I won't give you names and I'm not going to help folks and I won't even say what platforms I talked to folks from because you could easily trace folks. Not you. I'm not saying you would either. I'm just not going to. Yeah. But I've talked to my numerous senior enlist leaders, sonar technicians, and it's practically, you know, they'll look left, they'll look right and they'll be like, that's an open secret.
We all know there are things that we're picking up on sonar, just like your radar techs are like, yeah, we've all seen UFOs, you don't talk about, you just keep, you know, you talk about the aircraft and your pattern, make sure there's no safety violations and everybody laughs it off. Some people don't even make log entries.
The sonar techs are going through the same thing. So I'll throw that, it's scuttlebutt. I can't verify it. I'm not going to haul any of them up here on the show for you. And they already told me they don't want to get involved. They got their own jobs. They're not willing to risk any of it for this stuff. But the word on the street is it's an open secret. And what a couple of the guys have told me is we're told to log it and dog it. What that means is in some cases in the old days, I mean, you put it in the log and then you lined it out. So it was no longer an official entry.
In this case, it is morphed into don't even write it down, because they're not going to do anything about it. Now, as I said, that's scuttlebutt. That's rumor. But I've collected that from numerous disparate sources. That's very accurate, what Sean is telling you.
I can say there was, cause there was an article on it, um, about the Navy's, what they call that people are familiar with, with the, with the fast Walker program, but I'm not sure people are familiar so much with the fast mover program. And that was an article. If anybody cares to look it up, you can look it up. Um, you know, it's, it's about, about the Navy's, uh, um, collection of data regarding, you know, incidentally of, of, of USOs. And I'll include a link to that in the description.
So for those who are watching or listening, you can check out the description for that. So Brian asks, how important is sound to the advanced physics theories about the UAPs? Now, this is interesting because usually we hear about gravity, light, and so on. Have you heard anything about sound being essential rather than simply an effect? I'll jump on that. One of my colleagues, Chris Mellon, is working very hard right now trying to acquire data from infrasonics.
Things entering the Earth's atmosphere give off an acoustic signature, whether it's an asteroid or meteor or ballistic missile per se. Everything has signatures, an aircraft. You can sit in your backyard looking at an airplane going over and you can hear the jet engine. There are acoustic signatures associated with these things and infrasonics is part of that. And as Chris suggested in his most recent article that
there is data available potentially that could help us better understand the nature of UAPs if we had the ability to access that data and if we knew what we were looking for. So yeah, it's a great question and it's something that is being looked into. Speaking of accessible data, this question comes from Rebecca Schwart. Thank you to all three of you for your time. Question, are you aware of any civilian-based data collection slash analysis efforts worth looking into further?
What civilian accessible data would you advise collecting? At the moment, I would first point to Dr. Abby Lowe, his efforts being done at the Galileo project. Beyond that, I'm not prepared to say any names out there. I do have some colleagues that we've worked with that we've helped advise on a couple of projects that are interested in data collection, collating that data and
providing it as needed. I don't think we could have enough data collection. While you'll hear me talk about too many podcasts, we need more data collection companies. We need more people that are going to attack the electromagnetic spectrum from every possible vantage point that they can and then think of other means to sample our reality for replicatable or at least recordable data.
So the folks, I don't push other people's businesses. I don't do that. But there are people working very hard that have come very far, that have made a lot of relationships and have built an infrastructure in the last couple of years because they were paying attention. And I really look forward to seeing what they have to offer soon.
There's a question here from Joe Murgia, and he has a podcast called UFO Joe, which I'll link in the description. Have you come across any information that you deem credible that Holloman was a real event? Now, the claims for those who are unfamiliar is that a craft of unknown origin landed at Holloman AF base in 1964, humanoid looking beings got out and were whisked away off to a meeting with the military brass at the base then left. So what's your opinion on the aspects of these claims? I've read the same stories everyone else has read in UFOology.
I'll tell you that the problem is we don't know what is based in a real event and then what has been added to a story. Usually a lot of stories are based in some fact. The question is how much fact? Did something happen at Holloman Air Force Base? And if so, what? And did all these other things that happened later
You know, is it just a story that grew and grew and grew and grew and snowballed into what we know what we what we hear now? Or was it all based in in truth or partial truth? And so, you know, that's that's something that is trying to be determined that, you know, the problems with these cold cases is that the longer the time goes on, the harder it gets. This is, you know, 50 years ago. And most of the people who if any would be involved in that may be dead by now.
So it's hard and so that's why in ATIP we really were focusing on the here and now if you will on incidents involving military equities now or in the present because going back to these you almost don't know where to start because it's kind of gone now into the world of mythology where people say certain things but I heard it through this person who heard it through that person who was someone who was stationed there who saw the video who saw that
It's hard. And so I'm not going to comment on that simply because I wasn't there and I don't know. But I will say that it is certainly interesting. And, you know, obviously, we keep our feelers out for anybody who wants to come forward who may have additional information regarding that event, if they want to share, we'd love to hear it. Okay, this question is from Andy from that UFO podcast, thanks to the three of you. And what more needs to be done to encourage those in the mainstream to get involved with data collection flow. So we'll start with Sean.
Hi, I'm here to pick up my son Milo. There's no Milo here. Who picked up my son from his school? I'm gonna need the name of everyone that could have a connection. You don't understand. It was just the five of us.
So this was all planned? What are you gonna do? I will do whatever it takes to get my son back. I honestly didn't see this coming. These nice people killing each other. All Her Fault, a new series streaming now only on Peacock. It's cutting the nonsense we've been frankly complaining and borderline ranting about on this podcast. Cutting it out. Not entertaining it anymore. Nadi, frankly, I don't care. Go start your own show.
You know what I mean? You want to find out all the secrets of the various universe? Go for it. We want to collect data. And so we talk to people. As I often say, we say this is real. Here are some excellent data points to look at. What are your thoughts? Do you see merit here? They say, yes, I see merit. Would you like to help us collect more data and try to understand this? I mean, I'm presenting this in a very vague fashion, but it's that simple. Hey, can I have your attention?
This is real. Would you like to get involved? Yes. You know, yes or no. Some people have said no. They said, you know what, we've already, we're already in a good place. We have good contracts here. We're in a place like this. We don't want to mess with our, you know, we don't want to spook our clientele or our investors or whatever it is. And that's understandable. But some people see this for what it is that for some, something's different. I don't, I don't, I've never liked the question. Why now? I don't know. Now I only have now, as I said earlier in our conversation,
I want to be accurate as possible. Can you repeat the question, please? You want to know what people could do to encourage data collection in the private sector at a higher level.
I mean, it's a tough question because I mean, I would say anything people can do is helpful. But then again, that's not entirely true every time because not everything is helpful. You know, I think being aware of the conversation, you know, everybody now has one of these devices in their hands, right? So you're a virtual collection platform taking videos, pictures and whatnot.
I think being informed, arming yourself with knowledge and information. And yes, it may seem contradictory, but it requires talking to people. And by the way, formulating your own opinions as a result of that. Don't take somebody else's opinions.
and understanding the playing field, you know, who's legitimate, who's not, what are the motivations and by certain organizations and people that may be involved in this topic, why do some people have the opinions that they do, you know, maybe, you know, it's hard for me to say because you're asking people to teach themselves and they say, okay, well, teach me how to teach myself. Well,
Then again, if I do that, then we fall into the same pit we did last time where I'm teaching you what to think and not how to think. And so I don't want to be overly prescriptive. Just be curious, be yourself, ask the questions. It's okay to ask the questions. I think be fearless in your pursuit of knowledge and also have the courage to question people, including myself, including Sean, including you, including everybody. Questions aren't bad.
If you're going to ask somebody a question about their opinion, make damn sure you know what yours is first and be willing to state it and stand behind it and be willing to change it if the other person's opinion and their data change is yours.
But holding an opinion, asking questions, and I'm not talking about you again, Kurt. I'm just saying a lot of times in this field, it's so combative that people wield questions like swords and use petty excuses for shields. It's important that we all have a good understanding. We want to have a conversation. We don't want to have an interrogation session. We want to have a, you know, a
a conversation where we're all educated enough to bring the conversation to a new level, to rise to something new and to create something new. And so that's why a lot of times we, again, we get posed a lot of questions that I'm not sure if the question person asking it already expects a specific answer or is looking to learn, I guess. So I would also say to be prepared to challenge the hucksters and the fraudsters and the liars.
When someone is spewing off their opinion and they've been confirmed to be a liar and lied about things in the past, then hold them accountable. Say, hey, you said this before and you got caught lying or deceiving or not telling the truth. Why should we believe you now? There's people out there pretending they're spies. There's people out there recording private conversations.
There's people out there making up conversations and claiming data that's so far beyond the pale. It's ridiculous. And they're doing all of it to maintain some kind of attention, return on investment that they need. And I just don't understand it. And there's we have a whole community that has this passive aggressive conversation on the undertone about who's doing what, who's who in the zoo and who's treating people poorly.
And then everybody turns around and go, Hey, Bob, so good to be back on the show again. And what's new this week? And it's because everybody's afraid of their reputation. Everybody's afraid that, you know, they're all looking in their own, they're looking at each all their neighbors bowls to see what they have in them instead of worrying about what's in their own bowl. And it gets tiresome. I'm sorry, this keeps coming up, but it's, there's no accountability. You know, it's, it's, um,
It's a situation where you have people who are self-proclaimed experts and qualified experts when they're certainly not and who have been shown in the past to be frauds and no one holds them accountable. They continue to sow dissension and discord throughout the community and there's not a whole lot of them but there's a few of these agent provocateurs
And they're not held accountable. And they're allowed to continue to spew their vile and their misinformation and tarnish the reputation of people who really are engaged in this topic in a very serious manner. And I think that's a problem, I think.
until those people are held accountable, we're going to continue to have this situation that we have now. It's because people willing to kind of turn a blind eye and they say, well, okay, let's get it. Well, at some point, you know, people, when they wonder, why don't people take this topic seriously? You got to look in the mirror at some point, you got to say, hey, you know, maybe, maybe you're the problem, maybe I'm the problem, right? And it's, it's hard to do. You got it. But, but holding people accountable and holding yourself accountable,
is I think very, very important. Every time I make a mistake, the first time someone brings it up to me, I try to get online, hey, guys, listen, I made a mistake. Let me clarify our caveat. We've got to hold ourselves accountable. I almost guarantee you, if I can, that somewhere, whether today or tomorrow or in the chat or whatever, someone's going to say, well, why don't you just name the names and think, look, I'm not here to hold people accountable.
I'm here to advance the conversation. If you want me to hold people accountable, cool. We'll put the whole conversation on hold while I go into a freaking legal slog for the next 10 years of my life holding those people accountable all by my damn self. The audience needs to hold each other accountable. Self-policing our peers is the first part of our society.
I mean, come on, even in the Navy, I was a master in arms. I was a law enforcement officer on board a ship. Why did we need a law enforcement officer? We had a leadership structure. They should have been taking care of all these things. But in the end of the day, we're all just humans. We need we need police, unfortunately, at some level, whole another societal argument. I don't want to peel that crap off. But I just think we can. What we're talking about here is is, look,
You don't need your subject matter experts to be generalists. You don't need your generalists to get mired in the minutia of the data. They need to trust the experts. And in this case, too, we need to look to each other and go, is this what we want? Is this the community that we want to maintain? Or can we take a break from the constant daily drip? Can we wait for things to develop?
And can we start figuring out outside of the subject matter experts that we've appointed? How do we feel about this? And what do we really believe? What are our answers to these questions? What do we think about Holloman? Have we looked into it? Does it look like nonsense or not? The next person who tells me, you know, the moon's hollow. Oh, my God. I'm just like, could you could you start somewhere else with me besides, hey, did you know the moon is hollow? You know, teach to show me that you've done your research and we don't have a baseline for that.
So yeah. Let me jump in here too. Let me give you a real case scenario about holding ourselves accountable. Okay. I don't have your chat on here, but you know, you ask, perfect case of point, you ask Sean and I to come on and, and drink a beer for your show. Okay. So I thought it'd be fun to grab this. Now, what you don't know in your audience doesn't know that last night I emptied this out and I filled this with apple juice, right?
So no, I'm not going to drink on your show, but if it helps the conversation, everybody get going to be fun. Yeah, sure. Go ahead. I'll put a beer bottle and then but it was filled with apple juice that God's honest truth. And of course, what do people start accusing instantly? Oh, these guys are toasted. They're slosh. This is my point. People are so used to coming out and just spewing crap.
When they don't know, they have no clue and they spew it out as facts. And then other people pick it up and say, oh, that must be right. Well, they're they're toasted. You know what? I have zero percent alcohol in my body right now. Zero. I've been drinking coffee most of the time and apple juice. This is my point. The problem with ufology and all these people out there that supposedly know shit, they don't know anything. And now, of course, oh, look at Louie's yawning and he's he must be drunk or toasted. I am stone ass cold sober.
And it's, it's, this is, you know, so here's my, my, my case in point. And, and of course they don't know that you had asked us to come on your show and we'd all get relaxed and have a beer, right? Well, yeah. Okay. Sure. It's a beer bottle, but I'm not drinking beer. And so that's, this is, this is, again, I, this is just a very small example of how people who don't have all the information will jump to a conclusion.
as if they do have it. And then that will pick up legs, people pick it up and say, oh, you think, oh, you're right. Oh, my gosh. I want no part of that shit. I want no part of it. That's exactly what is wrong with this community. And I'm sorry. I don't want to be part of that. I want to be part of logic and rationale. I don't want to be part of speculation and innuendos. And I think or maybe I'm not interested in that. And this is my problem. This is exactly why
I've experienced like probably 1% of what you've all experienced and it's already
It already hurts me. I have a thin skin. I'm not like you all as I was joking before. I'm not a man like you all are. And so I've experienced well, I won't get into different details. It's not about Linda Moulton Howe or anything else. And some people thought that I planned what I said to Linda Moulton Howe as a gotcha question. And then they were saying, well, why don't you interview other women? I'm saying, did you not browse through the channel? How about Mathuna? How about Meryl Kindit? How about Sabine Hassenfelder or Rebecca Goldstein and so on?
And then I feel like, oh, then I'm justifying myself and then that makes it worse because it gives they don't see it as as they're not terribly interested in and I'm speaking extremely vaguely when I say they because some people are they actually just are questioning and and maybe they're just incorrect and maybe they're passionate and and that's and that's fine. But some people they want to get you and they probably already have a reason to dislike you. Well, I'm also just speaking about myself, even though I'm using the word you.
But anyway, you're pretty I'm following I'm tracking continue, please. Yeah No, it's not a pleasant place to be. I don't like it and I It affects me deeply. It affects me a bit too much. Like I get you and Linda To an extent being pushed from both sides by an angry mob there's an unfortunate aspect when you reach a certain level of exposure and
Unless you're going to put some kind of Gestapo-like filter on your chats and things like that, you're going to be exposed to people that are going to do things like that. And I'm going to bust your chops for saying you're not a man. You're most certainly a man. Don't do that to yourself, my friend. But beyond that, I'm going to tell you something. I'd rather have your thin skin because mine's scarred over. I'm not quiet or calm. I am.
I am, I'm beaten and bruised by this stuff. I've had friends of mine, people who were formerly my colleagues and my friends try to hurt myself and my family and dox me on the internet on 4chan and put my personal information out there. So my phone number is useless if I want to keep it. And I'm not going to write an article about that, man. And I don't want to talk about that for too long on the show, but I'm tired and I'm hurt and I'm going to keep working. I just may not keep doing it on a camera.
Yeah, it's something I think about plenty. And there's also this question that sometimes people or an accusation more than a question, which is don't you have a responsibility to do X?
and usually those come from people who don't have a large platform and they'll say well look you have a large platform so you have a responsibility to talk about X or to not talk about Y and that's so tricky because yeah who determines my responsibility
right right right there's that and outside of something that's legal like a signed document it's difficult to say that you're responsible for something although i do agree that most of the time whenever anyone lays that upon me i do think that i am responsible for most of what they say i am responsible for like i'm responsible
For putting out positive and constructive information. I don't think I am and I think I'm failing in my responsibility almost all of what they say It's just that I don't know how to live up to all of that And I also feel like sometimes some people want me to say yeah But this guest said so-and-so and that's false and don't you want to correct that and I would love actually I'm thinking about putting in a corrections segment to the introductions of the videos
But also at the same time, if I spent my time constantly correcting, I feel like then someone would say, aren't you failing in your responsibility to provide new information now?
So there are opportunity costs associated with the responsibility. And it's almost I feel like every individual has infinite responsibility. So that's why I feel like what they're saying is true. And I just say that I'm failing at my responsibility. I don't know what else to do about that other than to follow my own curiosity and to try to be honest and earnest. And that's what I try to do. And that's why some of these questions I'm asking you, you see what's wrong with them. But for me, I'm such a newcomer that I'm like, what's the big deal about these questions? I think about these questions all the time. So I'm just trying to be honest and earnest.
And hopefully loving at the same time. That's all I can do is follow my own interests. I know Sean's going to jump in here in a second. Let me just say real quick, Kurt, first of all, you're doing a great job. Second of all, don't forget, everybody loves a show. Okay. There's a reason why gladiator fights were so successful in Rome. Part of it was a control mechanism to control the masses, right? Give them circus, give them bread. Human beings are for whatever reason, attracted to conflict. I don't know why.
It's something that it may be deep in our DNA. Maybe it's part of the reptilian brain, no pun intended, but you know, something that for whatever reason why we maybe watch, we watch Monday Night Football because we like that head to head competition or boxing or whatever it is. Conflict seems to be an innate part of the human species. And whether we realize it or not, even when we're having an intellectual conversation like this,
There are bound to be people that want to see conflict, whether it's conflict of ideas or conflict of morals or conflict of whatever principles. And, and I think we see that I think we see where we have my team versus your team. And, you know, at the end of the gladiator fight, thumbs up or thumbs down, yay or nay. Right.
You will see it in the academic and scientific communities when people are proposing theories and there's this fierce debate where people take it personally. You see it on the floors of Congress when people are debating there. You see it right here, right now. We're living through this and we don't even realize we're engaged in this type of activity because it's so human part of us to seek out this conflict when
People like Sean have been really helping people like me try to step back from that because look, my entire profession was conflict, right? Let's face it.
government, military, intelligence. Your job is to outthink the enemy and win. And let's face it, the rule of war isn't to create peace. The rule of war is to kill more enemies than they kill you. It's a very violent, brutal act. And so it is part of what we are as a species. But let us recognize it.
And let us control it rather than allowing it to control us, would be my suggestion. And of course, that's a topic for a whole nother discussion at some point, maybe down in the future. But how do we remove ourselves from this self-generated conflict and rise above it? So Sean, what do you think? I just wanted to say to you, man, that I really feel something you said, because I heard it in your voice and I saw it in your face.
That people are telling you that you have a responsibility. I want to break that down. We're saying you have, that you're holding a responsibility. And I say, no, you haven't. Responsibility comes, first of all, responsibility is taken. It's not given. It's taken. You've been offered opportunities. These people see that you've been offered opportunities and they feel a certain amount of righteous jealousy towards you.
And they're saying to you, I'm not strong enough to do this. Somehow you've won this lottery. So you have a responsibility to carry out how I feel in my stead. Bullshit. You've been offered an opportunity. Your heart tells you where you're going to take responsibility. And then you give your whole heart to it. You give your whole acumen to it. Nobody's Superman. Nobody has everything covered.
You know what I mean? So you have to do what's best for you. And you can't let people tell you, you have a responsibility. Where is it? Is it on the counter or is it hanging up with the coats? Because I missed it when I walked in. I found my jeans in my wallet, but not my responsibility. So pardon me for being kind of a smart aleck there, but I see that you're under the same kind of strain that we are, man. And you may walk in front of the mirror and say, I have a responsibility.
nobody else should be telling you you have a responsibility besides your spouse or your children. I agree with that. And Kurt, listen, this is something that you're probably going to face a lot more than most. And this goes for anybody in your audience too, that's under something similar. So this advice isn't just for you, Kurt. And as you know, I don't offer advice very often.
It's advice I have to give myself and Sean has to give me and close friends of mine have to give me constantly and my family. At the end of the day, you're doing what you feel in your heart is right. People are going to ascribe all sorts of things. By the way, there are some bad people in this world. Believe me, I've met some of them on the wrong end of a gun.
There are truly some bad people in the world and they will, whether they're on the battlefield or in cyberspace, they will make themselves known and they will do whatever they can to hurt you. And this goes for people in your audience who are experiencing the same thing. They know there are people out there that want to hurt them. The question is why? What are these individuals out there that are trying to hurt people? What is their deficiency? What are they missing inside?
that causes them to have so much hatred towards other individuals? Is it jealousy? Is it pride and ego? Is it a lack of someone maybe early on in their life giving them the attention or the emotional fulfillment that they need or the acknowledgement? Who knows? I mean, there's a lot of damaged units out there.
I try to not confuse the difference between humans, which I don't particularly like, and humanity. I often tell people, you know, I love humanity, it's humans I don't like very much.
There's an old saying by Mel Tormé, and this is probably why I have so many dogs. He said, the more I get to know people, the more I like dogs. And I kind of understand that. But at the same time, it's also not fair for me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a lot of people right now that are probably listening to your show, that are genuinely just really good people. And they just want to know, man, they just wanted to, hey, look,
I'm just getting into this. I'm just hearing this for the first time. Is this shit real? They just want to know that. So I guess my word of advice to you, Curtis, keep doing what you're doing and have the courage to face the bad people and call them out for what they are, not in a mean way, not to hurt them, not to do to them what they're trying to do to you, but simply to
acknowledge that for what it is and then hopefully continue doing what you do for the betterment of everybody else who really just wants answers. They enjoy being with you. They enjoy spending their time with you, listening to you and your guests on the show and they just want to learn. You got to remember to do it for them. And by the way, I have to take my own advice too. So I'm not immune to that. There's days that I say, you know, screw it. These people aren't worth it. They're not worth it. You know, truth and freedom and all that stuff. They'll never evolve to deserve it.
And then I got to call myself off the ledge and say, okay, you actually know what they do. And I'm just pissed off because a few people that are jerks happen to have the loud voice when in reality, you know, most of the majority is silent. Most of the good people are silent. It's the agitators that make most of the noise. But in reality, most of the people aren't that way. And I have to remind myself of that.
For the people who are wondering, hey, I thought this was a conversation about UFOs. Well, in some ways this last hour has been a meta-conversation about UFOs because it's about the conversation about UFOs, much like when the physics community or some subset of the physics community criticizes string theory because it's taken the lion's share of the money. Well, that's not a science conversation per se, it's a meta-scientific conversation because it's about, well, how are we going to divide this up?
There is plenty of conflict in this UFO community, but I know that you said they're bad people. I consider myself as a part of that group. And some people would say, well, Kurt, you're ingenuous, but yeah, but they don't see the malevolence and the egotism and the covetousness and the, and the insecurity of myself. And I wouldn't say that they're bad people. You hear that you're facing it.
There's a difference. You are recognizing the fact that you're human like the rest of us. And we are all subject to weakness. That's what makes us human. It's okay. But acknowledge it. I don't see you throwing stones at other people. I see you actually embracing that part of you and saying, look, I'm human and this is what I do. And that's humility and humbleness. That's not a bad trait. That's a strength, not a weakness. You just exhibited the fact
that you can heal from anything. Literally, the last thing in the world that a narcissist can do is question themselves about possibly being a narcissist. The moment you step in front of the mirror and you go, am I the cloudy day? Dude, that is such an accomplishment. Just considering, hey, am I the a-hole here? Yeah, if you're considering it, maybe you were, and that means maybe you can overcome it.
Later on, when you get down the road and you find the folks that can't find the mirror in the house, but are somehow always looking at it, those folks are on a different plane somehow. I don't understand it, but you're not there, man. You're considering yourself that and don't stop. Don't be too hard on yourself. The fact that you would turn around that quick and be like, hey, I'm a human being just like these people I'm accusing of being human. That's all it is. It's the grace we give each other after that moment of self-awareness that defines us.
Kurt, that's a superpower. The fact that you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, you know what, I don't like necessarily everything I see. And, you know, I probably need to change some things. That's not a fault, brother. That's a blessing. And, you know, I think we're all better off for it when we can look in the mirror and say, you know what, sometimes I am weak. Sometimes I am selfish. Sometimes I am petty. Sometimes, you know, fill in a blank, whatever
issue it is. The problem are for those individuals who can't do that, whether they truly are sociopathic individuals or they suffer from some sort of personality disorder or narcissism. That's the problem because then there is no help because they will never be able to self-reflect and change when ultimately that is the journey for all of us. We are all brought into an imperfect world
And, you know, hopefully we leave this world better than we found it. And that's really, you know, in order to do that, you have to recognize that, hey, I'm not perfect, you know, and I'm going to make a lot of bonehead mistakes. I'm going to hold myself accountable. I'm not going to flog myself necessarily, but I will hold myself accountable and truly learn the lesson. And when I make a mistake, I'll be damned if I make that same mistake again. I'm not going to say I'm never going to make mistakes. I'm going to make mistakes all the time. I'm human and I will. That's just part of the human condition.
But learn from those men and don't repeat the same mistake and have the courage, most importantly, to stand in front of the mirror and say, you know what, I don't like that about you. That's a weakness. You need to change. You need to work on it. That to me is a strength, not a weakness at all if you have the ability to do that, Curtin. Clearly, you do. I appreciate that. I think it's overly complimentary. I don't know if I deserve all that, but thank you so much. And I also think that
You know, this whole hating of humans, I know you said it glibly like hating humans, loving humanity. Seinfeld has a comment about that too. I don't know if that's possible. That's something I used to believe too. I don't know if it's possible to dislike a subset and like the whole. I think that somehow the view that one has for a tiny object or a tiny subset is somehow reflected in the whole. And I think that somehow, I know this sounds so hokey man, but I think that somehow
maybe our purpose, maybe it sounds so woo. Go for it, man. Go for it. And peculiar, but maybe it's, it's to meet hate with love and to love even those that you at least initially despise. Even if they're oppressing you, you love your oppressors. And even if they're wronging you, you love them. I think that somehow that's extremely integral. I think if you can do that, that's fantastic. Those are the life lessons that some of the great people that have walked this earth before us have tried to preach.
We don't always practice it. I will tell you, I don't know if I agree necessarily that in order to love the whole, you have to love the constituent parts. There are many examples in reality where there are children that are born out of a horrible situation, whether it's rape or something else, and the child is a wonderful, loving child. But the situation that created the circumstances that brought that child into this world were less than desirable. And you don't have to love the act of that in order to love the end result of that.
That's just my opinion. I've witnessed within two minutes of each other, the best and worst humanity has to offer. And there are elements of our species that I really despise. And by the way, I'm subject to the same thing. So I'm not pointing my fingers saying you humanity, I'm saying, hey, plus humanity. But I do think that
collectively, you know, for the reason why I can't answer for anybody else or speak for anybody else. The reason why I do what I do is because it's those two minutes of beauty that I've seen the human species capable of. We are capable of such hatred and destruction towards each other, but we are also capable of such kindness and beauty. And that to me is worth saving. That is why I do what I do, because those moments, those few precious moments,
You know, all of heaven, all angels sing when a good act is done and rejoice. And it's for that that is worth saving the species for. That's what makes us so wonderful. Unfortunately, we are also our own devils and we do things that are very destructive towards each other and ourselves. And that's just part of the human condition. I think that's probably normal. In fact, maybe that's one of the reasons why we're here, perhaps,
is to learn to rise above it. There are certainly certain religions that feel that way, that we're going to continue coming back over and over again until we finally learn our lesson. Maybe that's the natural order of things. I don't know. But I do think that it's OK to be human, but we need to recognize when we are doing evil towards each other. And we have to be willing to hold each other and ourselves accountable. And that's the life lesson.
Thank you all for coming out to this. I appreciate it. It took an interesting turn and I hope a productive one. I think so. There was a time in about a month ago or so or two months ago when on Twitter, I was realizing that there's plenty of hate and I'm not saying I'm immune from this hate. Like if people saw what occurs in my mind, I think people will be extremely surprised at the egotism and selfishness and so on.
Well, there is, I wouldn't say competing factions in the UFO content creator community, but there are different beefs. And I thought, you know, it'd be great if we could all, why don't we all just put that aside and just have beer, even though I'm drinking tea, but have beer and be on a collective Zoom call, just put aside, extend the olive branch. So while this conversation may seem like it has nothing to do with UFOs, maybe, maybe, but maybe it's a more important conversation because it,
It deals with what gives birth to the conversations about UFOs. Kurt, how can you honestly have a question and a conversation and answers about potentially one of the most existential issues facing our species if we don't even understand ourselves? How do you possibly expect to understand someone or something else or another species
If we don't even understand how we work, they are the same. If you want, and this is why I kind of, and I'll just share with you now, the reason why I said, look, when you ask you my number one advice, understanding UFOs, go hug your kid and go hug your family, because that's where it starts.
That's where it starts. It doesn't start reading a book. It doesn't start with having a conversation, a podcast. It starts here. It starts here right now, reaching out and understanding who you are as an individual and what you are and what is meaningful in life. That's where that journey begins. It doesn't start out there. It starts in here, right here. That's how you have to make that journey. The very first step to understanding out there is first understanding right here.
And what's here. And this is why I said what I did without you know going into a lot of detail earlier because it sounds kind of kind of I know, little mushy but, but I mean it. And Sean will tell you how many times have we over the years had this conversation.
There's no shortcut. You can't just all of a sudden have a shortcut and boom, now I understand, you know, the secrets of the universe. You first have to try to understand the secrets of yourself that you've been keeping hidden from yourself and others. And only then, when you understand that, will you be able to even begin to ask the right questions to understand what lies beyond. They're going to say, oh, I thought you were about science and nuts and bolts and evidence and all this stuff. And then it's like, but hold on a minute. I can tell you're not even here right now.
You're not even present in the conversation. I don't mean you. I mean, you know, the hypothetical person we're talking to. I'm like, bro, you're either lost in the future or the past at every moment, either in fear of something that hasn't occurred or in regret of something that happened before and trying to figure out how not to go through that pain again and try to avoid it. You're just on the treadmill and going. I'm not there anymore.
You know, and it gives a different perspective and it gives an idea of some of the larger ideas behind UAP, a completely different, different vantage point. And I think one way to, I know we're getting near the end of our conversation, but we do, some people ask me, I say this, this phrase and people go, what's that mean? And I'm like, it means what the two words mean, put them together. So figure it out. But consensus reality is the reality that we're all sharing our language,
Our monetary systems, our decoration, the shapes of our houses and our cars, those are all consensus reality. We decided those things look like that, and we're going to keep them looking like that, and things are going to look like this, and we're going to talk this way, and we're going to do these things. That could be flipped upside down tomorrow, and the human animal would still survive. It could all be removed, and the human animal would develop a new way of communicating and a new consensus reality. And that consensus reality at some point in our past was about animalistic spirits and
and our connection to nature, and now it's very techno-based, very self-aware and introspective. Everyone's a guru now. Everyone's a technological maniac. That's a lousy word. Everyone is an engineer. They have all of these devices in their hands. They can collect all of this data. Now everyone meditates. The world a thousand years ago would not recognize us now. They would think we were all super people.
And we all sit around still laughing with each other because our kids can't balance a checkbook. And this is a large reality. Especially in this field, we peel off pieces of it that are way bigger than we think they are. And we say, I'm going to try to slap a binary answer on this right now, right here, and then we can go chill out. It's not that easy. Your life lasts as long as your life does. Your journey lasts as long as your journey does. And that may not be a nuts and bolts answer some people want.
But if you don't know who the hell you are, stop asking me who the hell they are. Thank you both for coming out and for spending so much time with me and the 3000 other people who are watching. It's an honor, man. I know we went all over the place and I love that we got. Look, when we talked beforehand, I told you whatever it is, we'll get through it. And it's not that we were anticipating conflict, but it was we knew that there had been some, you know, there's been some static in the past and
Thanks, man. Yeah.
Kurt, I agree. Thank you. Always an honor and privilege to be here. Thank you for humility. Thank you for your honesty. You know, we all suffer privately sometimes with these demons and it's called humanity, man. This is the situation we're in.
Let's just recognize and try to help each other out of the ditch. Whenever one of us falls into the ditch, don't throw stones. Try to help the person out. Come on out here. Let me give you a helping hand. And I think that's part of the lesson of the journey. And I know you probably want to spend the last hour talking about UFOs, but in reality, time has probably come for us to have an honest conversation about ourselves
in order to continue that conversation about UFOs. And I want to applaud you for doing this. I'm not sure we've really had a chance to ever do this before on any type of podcast. And I want to thank your audience for those out there that are truly interested and have been patient.
with us. Thank you so much. Thank you for letting us kind of go off on a bit of a tangent, if you will, or a detour. But I think it's helpful for the conversation. So we all understand where we're coming from. We all understand each other a little bit better. And then maybe we get better at sharing ideas, you know, with each other instead of, you know, sharing insults. Okay, I'll speak for another couple minutes and answer any audience questions.
I see Todd Trowbridge, you had a comment which said, thanks Kurt, Lou and Sean, appreciate your time and effort despite the challenges of having a rational grounded conversation of the subject area. I will make sure that they see that beer bottle gate. That's hilarious. That's said by Machiavelli too. Dirty Teaspoon wants to know if I can invite Richard Dolan. I have and here you go. That's the URL.
Joshua wants to know, Kurt, do you feel your foray into this topic has been a net positive or negative? I think on the surface, it's been a net negative. Maybe it's been a net positive or will become a net positive for myself. I hope that is a net positive for others. Part of me taking a while before coming back to this topic was me assessing that, but I'm not saying it's altruistic. It's mainly selfish. I was assessing it for myself.
So Kepsta asks, Kurt, what did you learn from this interview that they didn't already talk about? Well, generally, I find that most of the time watching anything on UFOs, any content on UFOs doesn't provide me with what's new. Although that's a bit false because I'm so fresh. I'm green in the subject that there's bound to be one, two, three pieces that are foreign to me at the time. But much of the learning, at least for myself,
doesn't come from what happened in the moment but rather me thinking about the content weeks later and then also conversing with others much like a movie when I watch a movie it's a strange question to ask what did I learn from the movie much of it comes from weeks later and hearing what other people think and then also conversing with others and mauling over my own thoughts so it's not clear to me what is the content is the content here or is the content what occurs over the course of days and months later someone wants to know is Gary Nolan coming onto the show
Yes, in early April. I haven't announced the specific date yet. Pius' interview will be March 27th. Someone wants to know when am I getting Stephen Greer on. I've asked him or his people each month for the past six months or so, and they've said no each time. Maybe even longer than six months. Justin Forder says, thanks, Kurt. Look after yourself. Thank you. I'm trying. Yes, I'm trying. Also, now may be a great time to let you know
that there's a link to the Patreon in the description if you'd like to support this podcast. As the patrons and the sponsors are the only reasons that I'm able to do this full-time, I rely pretty much exclusively on their support, and only do so if you feel like you have the means. There's no obligation at all. Currently, there's no special incentive for being a patron, such as a mug or some ad-free experience, nothing like that, and this is the way I'd like to keep it so that you're not being persuaded to join for any reason other than simply supporting the podcast.
And also, by the way, the comments that I mentioned about people saying you are responsible for so-and-so, that happens from like five people out of tens of thousands of people. It's just that there's this negativity bias where I, like I'm a member of the human, I'm a member of humans and humans have this. There's this negativity bias where one focuses overly on the anxiety provoking. Okay, well, thank you all. I appreciate it and take care.
The podcast is now finished. If you'd like to support conversations like this, then do consider going to patreon.com slash C-U-R-T-J-A-I-M-U-N-G-A-L. That is Kurt Jaimungal. It's support from the patrons and from the sponsors that allow me to do this full time. Every dollar helps tremendously. Thank you.
▶ View Full JSON Data (Word-Level Timestamps)
{
"source": "transcribe.metaboat.io",
"workspace_id": "AXs1igz",
"job_seq": 10384,
"audio_duration_seconds": 10915,
"completed_at": "2025-12-01T01:41:36Z",
"segments": [
{
"end_time": 20.896,
"index": 0,
"start_time": 0.009,
"text": " The Economist covers math, physics, philosophy, and AI in a manner that shows how different countries perceive developments and how they impact markets. They recently published a piece on China's new neutrino detector. They cover extending life via mitochondrial transplants, creating an entirely new field of medicine. But it's also not just science they analyze."
},
{
"end_time": 36.067,
"index": 1,
"start_time": 20.896,
"text": " Culture, they analyze finance, economics, business, international affairs across every region. I'm particularly liking their new insider feature. It was just launched this month. It gives you, it gives me, a front row access to The Economist's internal editorial debates."
},
{
"end_time": 64.514,
"index": 2,
"start_time": 36.34,
"text": " Where senior editors argue through the news with world leaders and policy makers in twice weekly long format shows. Basically an extremely high quality podcast. Whether it's scientific innovation or shifting global politics, The Economist provides comprehensive coverage beyond headlines. As a toe listener, you get a special discount. Head over to economist.com slash TOE to subscribe. That's economist.com slash TOE for your discount."
},
{
"end_time": 94.718,
"index": 3,
"start_time": 66.152,
"text": " This is Martian Beast Mode Lynch. Prize pick is making sports season even more fun. On prize picks, whether you're a football fan, a basketball fan, you'll always feel good to be ranked. Right now, new users get $50 instantly in lineups when you play your first $5. The app is simple to use. Pick two or more players. Pick more or less on their stat projections. Anything from touchdown to threes. And if you're right, you can win big. Mix and match players from"
},
{
"end_time": 104.599,
"index": 4,
"start_time": 94.718,
"text": " any sport on PrizePix, America's number one daily fantasy sports app. PrizePix is available in 40 plus states including California, Texas,"
},
{
"end_time": 131.34,
"index": 5,
"start_time": 104.821,
"text": " Recall that you can click on the timestamp in the description to skip this longish introduction."
},
{
"end_time": 142.944,
"index": 6,
"start_time": 131.869,
"text": " This is a pivotal episode in the Toe series on the phenomenon, because it's akin to a meta episode, with the first half being a talk on the UFO topic, and the second half being a talk on the types of talks on the UFO topic."
},
{
"end_time": 173.336,
"index": 7,
"start_time": 143.336,
"text": " This makes it a podcast that, though salutary, you rarely hear about. Thank you to Sean and Lou for their candor and unguardedness. This is the third interview with Lou Elizondo, outmatching even the previous as his longest interview ever. This time, we're joined with Sean Cahill. Lou Elizondo is a former US Army counterintelligence special agent, mostly known as the director of the now-defunct ATIP, which was a program initiated by the Defense Intelligence Agency in order to study the UAP phenomenon, also known as UFOs."
},
{
"end_time": 198.66,
"index": 8,
"start_time": 173.336,
"text": " Chief Sean Cahill served in the United States Navy from 1995 to 2015 with missions spanning from anti-terrorism to anti-piracy to interrogations and investigations. He's a co-founder and strategic advisor at Skyfort.org, that is S-K-Y-F-O-R-T dot org, which is a think tank and tech incubator working on UAP studies. Click on the timestamp in the description if you'd like to skip this intro."
},
{
"end_time": 214.633,
"index": 9,
"start_time": 198.66,
"text": " My name is Kurt Jaimungal. I'm a Torontonian filmmaker with a background in mathematical physics interested in explicating the variegated terrain of theories of everything from mainly a theoretical physics perspective, but as well as understanding the role consciousness has to fundamental reality."
},
{
"end_time": 237.278,
"index": 10,
"start_time": 214.633,
"text": " The plan is for this podcast sometime this year to lead somewhere, perhaps even earlier, starting with ideas in gauge theory, which begin in ideas in Lie group theory, and build up to the infinite categorical approaches to physics, like infinite categories and modal homotopy type theories as well, and even geometric algebra. The reason being that the physical theories of everything and the language to understand them and the"
},
{
"end_time": 256.032,
"index": 11,
"start_time": 237.278,
"text": " Unification attempts are more elegantly written and understood from those perspectives, at least to some people. Outside of the universities, there are no accessible texts on this, let alone media content, so hopefully the Toe podcast will serve as a stanchion supporting the quest for understanding the mathematical fundamental principles."
},
{
"end_time": 278.831,
"index": 12,
"start_time": 256.032,
"text": " If you enjoy witnessing and engaging with others in real time on the topics of consciousness, psychology, physics, and mathematics, then check out the description for a link to the Discord and subreddit. There's also a link to the Patreon, which is patreon.com slash KurtJaimungal, if you'd like to support this podcast, as support from the patrons and the sponsors are the only reasons that I can bring podcasts of this quality and depth"
},
{
"end_time": 304.77,
"index": 13,
"start_time": 279.053,
"text": " as this is now what I'm able to do full time thanks to your support. Speaking of sponsors, there are three. The first sponsor is That UFO Podcast. That UFO Podcast is one of the world's premier destinations for everything related to the subject of UFOs and related phenomenon. Created in May 2020 by Scottish host Andy McGillin, the show has hosted many of the largest names in the UFO community, including Lou Elizondo, Avi Loeb and George Knapp, plus many, many more."
},
{
"end_time": 334.309,
"index": 14,
"start_time": 304.77,
"text": " In addition to interviews, regular co-host Dan Zetterstrom joins Andy for weekly news breakdowns bringing you the latest UFO news in a concise and easy to digest format. The discursive style of dialogue is such that it's both entertaining and informative. In fact, Dan and Andy are two people I regularly confer with when I don't understand the history of some particular UFO-related event or for general explanations of what people like Lou have said about the phenomenon. They also helped call and order the list of questions for this episode so adulation should be directed toward them."
},
{
"end_time": 354.923,
"index": 15,
"start_time": 334.309,
"text": " The links to that UFO podcast are in the description, or you can simply search, quote-unquote, that UFO podcast. The second sponsor is Ground News. If you're someone like myself who's ever exposed to the unrelenting onslaught of digital media, you've become increasingly skeptical of the veracity of the information you're receiving, particularly with regard to balance, and that's where Ground News comes in."
},
{
"end_time": 376.817,
"index": 16,
"start_time": 354.923,
"text": " For every breaking news story, they'll show you which media outlets are reporting on the issue and where they fall on the political spectrum. You can instantly spot media bias, discover stories outside your own, perhaps unrecognized, echo chamber, and attain some clarity, especially in these chaotic times. The ground news website and app lets you compare headlines from left, center, and right sources simply with a swipe."
},
{
"end_time": 406.51,
"index": 17,
"start_time": 376.817,
"text": " And their Blindspot feed will show you stories that are not being reported by one side of the political spectrum. Subscribers also gain access to features like My News Bias, which lets you track your reading habits so you can see how factual your sources are, who owns them, and much more. Ground News isn't better news. It's an improved manner of the consumption of news. Download the Ground News app or browser extension to make sure that you're seeing the full picture. Visit www.ground.news.to to demand more from your news. Now on to the third and last sponsor."
},
{
"end_time": 425.162,
"index": 18,
"start_time": 406.51,
"text": " UrgentCare.com is a forward-thinking health care company that understands while we all do share the same biology, our personal needs and requirements are uniquely our own. UrgentCare.com has an appreciation and respect and gratitude for any individual or entity that seeks to help the human species."
},
{
"end_time": 449.036,
"index": 19,
"start_time": 425.162,
"text": " Without question, Lou Elisondo and Sean Cahill all deserve thanks for helping humanity answer some of life's most important and challenging questions. That statement comes from Urgent Care themselves and I agree with it. Visit UrgentCare.com for convenient health care for everyone. Thank you and enjoy this lengthy, engrossing, and revelatory Ask Me Anything session with Louise Elisondo and Sean Cahill."
},
{
"end_time": 476.254,
"index": 20,
"start_time": 449.428,
"text": " Okay, it says that we're live. Now, if you can see this, please type into the chat. Charizard is not overhyped. Charizard is not overhyped. All right, there we go. Okay, thank you, Sean. Thank you, Lou. I appreciate it. And you know me, I like to be efficient and make a great use of our time and the audiences as well. So we'll get straight to the questions."
},
{
"end_time": 502.244,
"index": 21,
"start_time": 476.561,
"text": " This one is directed to both of you, and we'll start with Lou. Lou, while you were in the government, and then Sean, while you were in the government, have you ever come across the words Element 115? Did you see it? Did you read it? Did you overhear someone allude to it? So first of all, Kurt, how you doing? You doing good? Good. Doing great, man. Everybody out there in the social media world, thank you very much for having me and spending today's afternoon with me."
},
{
"end_time": 524.531,
"index": 22,
"start_time": 502.841,
"text": " Don't get me wrong, I don't mind kissing on the first date, Kurt, but I just wanted to first say thank you for having us on here and to your audience for having us. To very quick, today is a bit of a special day for me. My daughter, Taylor, is getting married. She's over in California getting married to"
},
{
"end_time": 549.753,
"index": 23,
"start_time": 524.923,
"text": " Her fiance, Joe, and he's over in Monterey right now at the Defense Language Institute, learning a language and serving our country. So a huge shout out, if I may, to him. Thank you for Joe, for your service to our nation. We are eternally grateful. And Taylor and Joe, congratulations. Congratulations. Yep. Nope. Nope. Appreciate it."
},
{
"end_time": 566.374,
"index": 24,
"start_time": 550.145,
"text": " And Kurt, you're looking mighty spiffy today. Just for you, man. And Sean. We break the ice a little bit. And Sean, thank you for always your friendship and being with me. It's profoundly appreciated."
},
{
"end_time": 590.111,
"index": 25,
"start_time": 566.783,
"text": " One last big thanks to all the folks out there who continue to support this effort moving forward. There's a lot of folks in the UK that are trying to do what we've done here in the United States, so a big shout out to them. And finally, a big shout out to all of you in the audience. Thank you so very much for being here with us. It is truly an honor and privilege."
},
{
"end_time": 620.367,
"index": 26,
"start_time": 590.725,
"text": " Now that we've got that out of the way, Kurt, let's answer your question about Element 115. No, there is obviously a lot of discussion about it in the Twitterverse and social media, but that was never a part of the ATIP portfolio. Doesn't mean it wasn't part of portfolios beforehand or perhaps, you know, some other efforts that were parallel or tangential to ATIP. But while I was in ATIP, Element 115 wasn't ever really part of any type of discussion. Sean?"
},
{
"end_time": 646.169,
"index": 27,
"start_time": 620.845,
"text": " I never encountered anything like that. I wouldn't have, even if it were purportedly anything like what it's supposed to be. I've only heard about it in the zeitgeist of ufology from the same sources. Do you all have any reason to believe that UAPs and or what may be behind them may intervene at some point to prevent nuclear holocaust or some large iniquity, for example, with Russia?"
},
{
"end_time": 676.63,
"index": 28,
"start_time": 648.097,
"text": " I personally don't have any evidence of that. We have a great deal of evidence that they didn't stop the testing of the first device, the use of it twice, and the subsequent testing by numerous nations on the Earth during that period of time, so I don't see why they would intervene otherwise. I don't have any evidence to point towards any kind of motive. I can't even identify who's behind the craft, so getting to their motives would be a very hard, very much longer stretch."
},
{
"end_time": 703.626,
"index": 29,
"start_time": 677.415,
"text": " Yeah, I'll go even a little more pointed than that. Look, they did nothing. They didn't interfere with Chernobyl. They didn't interfere with Fukushima. They didn't interfere with the vaporization of 500,000 people during World War II, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. They didn't interfere during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They didn't interfere right now in the Ukraine. So the question is, is there any evidence to substantiate that they're here to stop mankind from"
},
{
"end_time": 731.237,
"index": 30,
"start_time": 704.036,
"text": " from hurting ourselves. Well, they haven't stopped COVID. They haven't stopped climate change. They haven't stopped World War II, Korean War or anything else. And they haven't stopped world hunger. So, you know, I, it'd be nice if that was a case, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that. What I have seen is evidence to suggest of some sort of ISR intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance of our nuclear equities and technology that we have seen. We've been able to substantiate that and the ability to interfere with it."
},
{
"end_time": 759.343,
"index": 31,
"start_time": 731.681,
"text": " But the question is, are they interfering it for good? Well, right now there's no information to indicate that, at least not from my perspective. Do you have any idea what this cataclysm is that people like Ross Coulthart refer to? And if you do, has it been impending? Has it been averted? I think I understand what Ross is talking about. I've spoken to Ross at length privately. I know what Ross is talking about from the side of"
},
{
"end_time": 789.377,
"index": 32,
"start_time": 759.889,
"text": " the coin where I work and where I'm interested in the subject, I have no connection to it whatsoever other than, as I often say, the pop-site geist ufology. Now that's not to say that I haven't studied some of the same things that Ross has and other people like Grant Cameron and others, that there is a cyclical nature to life on Earth, that there are changes evident in the fossil record and in sedimentary records and things like that. So"
},
{
"end_time": 813.763,
"index": 33,
"start_time": 789.821,
"text": " There may be a great deal of conflation going on here between what we call the entertainment aspect of the ufology and the need to invigorate a subject and keep people interested in it, vice the actual nuts and bolts again, and the reality of it. Species have gone extinct before. There's no reason to expect that we won't go extinct someday. So when people talk about cataclysms,"
},
{
"end_time": 842.841,
"index": 34,
"start_time": 814.206,
"text": " I think it's important that we don't conflate them with popuapology. I'd like to leave that to the geologists and to the climatologists and the other people who are making that their specific focus. I'm not sure precisely what you're referring to. Cataclysms have always been part of human evolution. In fact, one could argue we've always been on the verge of a cataclysm at any moment, our species."
},
{
"end_time": 858.131,
"index": 35,
"start_time": 843.251,
"text": " There have been historical anecdotes, whether it's Nostradamus or the Mayan calendar or even the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita or anything else, you know, cataclysm, Armageddon, whatever, has always been part of the human"
},
{
"end_time": 882.602,
"index": 36,
"start_time": 858.848,
"text": " storytelling, and for good reason, because you do have these moments in time where things change so dramatically. Case in point, one could probably point to the last Ice Age, when the Earth was thawing out of the Ice Age. That was a major moment and caused a lot of species to disappear because environments change."
},
{
"end_time": 906.169,
"index": 37,
"start_time": 882.978,
"text": " The land bridge, when that was no longer crossable, you isolated certain genetic species from intermingling with each other. It's always been part of who we are and always part of Earth because Earth changes. Look at the dinosaurs. That was a hell of a cataclysm when you had a meteor come down and wipe out 90% of animals on this planet."
},
{
"end_time": 933.456,
"index": 38,
"start_time": 906.664,
"text": " That's just reality. I'm not sure that's necessarily something we all need to look at and say, oh, that's coming. We've always been immersed in that. Again, you can look throughout history and see where mankind, in almost every religious text, there is some sort of reference to some sort of cataclysmic event, or that has occurred or will occur, whether it's the flooding stories of the earth and the 40 days of rain,"
},
{
"end_time": 950.674,
"index": 39,
"start_time": 933.456,
"text": " Or pick your story that we have always been telling ourselves and let things continue to happen. World War III, just another example, nuclear war. It's always right around the corner and for good reason because you have"
},
{
"end_time": 979.087,
"index": 40,
"start_time": 951.186,
"text": " a lot of things operating in nature that aren't necessarily in favor for a species survival. And so you have to adapt if you want to survive, whether that's climate or because of things we do to each other. That's just the reality of life. So I'm not aware of any particular cataclysm story you're maybe referring to because frankly, you know, pick your story du jour. There's a lot of stories."
},
{
"end_time": 996.101,
"index": 41,
"start_time": 979.821,
"text": " Think Verizon, the best 5G network is expensive? Think again. Bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to a Verizon"
},
{
"end_time": 1030.64,
"index": 42,
"start_time": 1001.084,
"text": " I don't know. I really like Ross. I think he is a deep thinker."
},
{
"end_time": 1055.623,
"index": 43,
"start_time": 1030.828,
"text": " I really enjoy talking to them actually even about these subjects and throwing conjecture against the wall. But I find myself having a really hard time saying, not to play games, but what are we talking about here? Because if we're talking about climatology or if we're talking about, as we said, sedimentary record and other things like that of what has happened before,"
},
{
"end_time": 1081.135,
"index": 44,
"start_time": 1056.391,
"text": " We're throwing in aliens that we can't prove. We're throwing in a historical record that's spotty. I agree that some of these things, when placed on the table together, make a certain amount of sense, but I can't say that the things we're placing on the table make sense by themselves. And so there's a great deal of conflation going on. And I don't want to say that anyone's using their imagination too much, but I think that it would just be my opinion about"
},
{
"end_time": 1107.773,
"index": 45,
"start_time": 1081.783,
"text": " a lot of fiction and conjecture that I've taken in over the years, which doesn't really apply in any way, shape or form to the work I'm doing right now. So it's imaginative, and I think it's interesting. But again, I couldn't get there as an investigator, because I'm to an extent making up one of the suspects"
},
{
"end_time": 1135.367,
"index": 46,
"start_time": 1108.251,
"text": " And I'm, I'm assuming a story of one of the complainants to arrive to say that a crime has occurred. It's the fruits of the poisonous tree. So it's, it's, um, if we had like a show about conjecture and we wanted to really dig into that, you know, we can get some, get Graham Hancock or another expert, maybe from one of the ancient, uh, ancient architect channels or something like that. I think we could have a really interesting conversation, but it just, uh, it doesn't apply other than to my opinion."
},
{
"end_time": 1153.251,
"index": 47,
"start_time": 1137.193,
"text": " Sure, I'll go also I'll add you know my concern is right now let's just say hypothetically we as a species right now we have the ability to go back in time. My concern is the whole paradox issue right you know there's a saying if I go back and I kill my grandfather well then I don't exist. And so therefore I couldn't go back in time to kill my grandfather so"
},
{
"end_time": 1181.254,
"index": 48,
"start_time": 1153.507,
"text": " There's a paradox issue here. And if there's a species that that is for some reason, or us, let's say coming back from a future, and I don't want to say the future, because we don't know if there is, you know, the or perhaps a or multiple. The bottom line is that if you if you come back and interfere with the past, you may very well inadvertently affect your ability to exist in the future and change things irrevocably. And in fact, you may change things for the worse, not the better. So"
},
{
"end_time": 1209.923,
"index": 49,
"start_time": 1181.561,
"text": " You know, I think it's certainly interesting to speculate. But, you know, I think that's why it's tough for us to conceive about going backwards in time. I think we can slow down. I mean, nothing relativity time can be slowed down. And it can be potentially even stopped to some degree. But to go backwards is a little bit different. You know, you're asking the river to run backwards and you can slow it, you can dam it up. But to have a river go backwards, it's a little more tough than that."
},
{
"end_time": 1237.671,
"index": 50,
"start_time": 1210.316,
"text": " And so therein lies the conundrum. If you go, the mere fact that you go back in time, let's say hypothetically to your time period, which is what would matter if you went back in time, you wouldn't want to go back to some other parallel universe's time because you're not going to affect your own paradigm. So you have to take it with a grain of salt. And I'm not sure we would want to do that."
},
{
"end_time": 1262.483,
"index": 51,
"start_time": 1238.268,
"text": " Because of the risk you would have to, and then you have the question about matter in the universe, right? So if I take matter from the future and the universe has only X amount of matter, X amount of energy and matter can't, and energy can't be created destroyed. Now I add more matter. How does that affect the rest as it perturbed the existing model of the universe by the mere fact you're introducing more matter into a universe that only has X matter?"
},
{
"end_time": 1286.101,
"index": 52,
"start_time": 1262.483,
"text": " And how does that occur? And now does that initiate another potential big bang? These are the questions you have to ask yourself seriously whenever you're providing a theory about time travel. Again, like Sean said, it's fun to speculate, but there's a lot more considerations that one has to consider if that was really possible and would you really want to do it?"
},
{
"end_time": 1312.534,
"index": 53,
"start_time": 1286.51,
"text": " Quick editors quitted to here. For those interested in the details, a positive cosmological constant allows for the creation of energy and energy seems to only locally be conserved, not globally. I think we can all take the scene from one of the Avengers movies, I think it was Endgame, where they ran through all the different time travel movies and they were trying to explain, they're all wrong. They're getting it wrong."
},
{
"end_time": 1338.217,
"index": 54,
"start_time": 1312.995,
"text": " And they started talking about real physics and the possibility of alternate realities and alternate dimensions and things like that. But we have to ask ourselves again, if we don't have any personal perception of that, if we can't detect it, again, assigning motive is very, very much just opinion, you know, opinion, we, you know, I don't even know if I have a time machine, or if there's an alien, what his motive is, what he wants,"
},
{
"end_time": 1355.094,
"index": 55,
"start_time": 1338.643,
"text": " And just so you know, Lou, you mentioned at one point that the present is thick, for lack of a better word, cigarette burning as the analogy."
},
{
"end_time": 1384.377,
"index": 56,
"start_time": 1355.333,
"text": " And for people who are interested in a more mathematical treatment of that, I spoke to someone named Nicholas Gisson, who gave a formalism to indicate that the present time is thick, that you can't pick out a particular point that as soon as you do, it's almost like honey. So if you're interested in that, I'll put a link in the description. Yeah, no. And we see that very practically in the world of quantum physics and even the expression or the description of an electron. You know, again, for your audience, who's probably my age, remembers in high school, you learn that"
},
{
"end_time": 1406.22,
"index": 57,
"start_time": 1384.923,
"text": " electron orbits the nucleus of an atom but in reality that's not what's occurring. We now realize it's called an electron cloud for a reason because of predictability and the fact that the electron can never be isolated in a fixed position you can't do it and in fact some scientists now are speculating that it is because the electron"
},
{
"end_time": 1433.677,
"index": 58,
"start_time": 1406.817,
"text": " is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. It is so small that it may literally be zipping in and out through the very fabric of space-time. And so it's nonsensical to try to predict the position of an electron because there is no position. It's everywhere and nowhere at the same time around the nucleus of an atom. And that's some of the observations we're beginning to see now."
},
{
"end_time": 1453.234,
"index": 59,
"start_time": 1434.087,
"text": " Let me add to that, that the past and the future are human semantic constructs. It is always now. It always has been now from the universe's perspective. The past is not something that's sitting next door to us."
},
{
"end_time": 1481.442,
"index": 60,
"start_time": 1453.712,
"text": " And another way people think of things, and we think when we say that the stars are very far away, the lights are a very long time to travel to us. We're seeing the past. Again, that's a metaphor. We're not seeing the past. We're seeing now. And now is those photons are here hitting your eyes, where at one point they were not. And so these are arbitrary concepts a lot of times. So we've applied a linear understanding to something that exists on a much deeper, much deeper spectrum in a lot of ways."
},
{
"end_time": 1504.428,
"index": 61,
"start_time": 1482.227,
"text": " When we talk about going past, going future. And I think a lot of what Lou's talking about is that reality is anchored in now and in the present and in the entropic state that we exist in at this moment. And so there's so many variables to that. And we're jumping to motive. I think that's something we just have to keep in mind."
},
{
"end_time": 1534.821,
"index": 62,
"start_time": 1504.974,
"text": " Yeah, I'll go even a step further, Kurt, too, with that kind of piggybacking off of what Sean said. You know, the whole notion of here and now is almost nonsensical. It's, let me give an example. I asked you, Kurt, where are you? Where are you right now? Let's do a little quick exercise for you and your audience. Where are you right now, Kurt? Let's say Toronto, Canada. OK, where's Toronto? Where's Toronto? I don't know how to answer that. OK, well, where's Canada?"
},
{
"end_time": 1565.043,
"index": 63,
"start_time": 1535.589,
"text": " Where's our solar system? Where's our Milky Way? There is no here here. We invent here because we have to live in an environment where we are used to boundaries and borders in order for us for things to make sense. But in reality, the big scale of things in the scale of the universe, the notion of here and now is really nonsensical because it depends on where I am relative to everything else. Here and now only exist"
},
{
"end_time": 1591.971,
"index": 64,
"start_time": 1565.947,
"text": " It's like trying to pick out a specific electron from the electron cloud. Everything is moving so dynamically at all times that a location is not a concept even. It's only a location in a certain regional area and you have to have some kind of substrate to measure that against."
},
{
"end_time": 1620.742,
"index": 65,
"start_time": 1592.517,
"text": " And we live in a universe that lacks a substrate. There's no grid, snap tube grid that we can say we've, you know, we're now 14 parsecs northeast to, you know, local globular cluster north. What is the, what's that mean? You know, how would you navigate to that? Um, that, that's something that, that really, that really digs into my head. How would we navigate to a point in the past? You have to figure out its location and space time."
},
{
"end_time": 1650.828,
"index": 66,
"start_time": 1621.493,
"text": " We haven't found space-time yet to be a thing to measure in that way. In fact, if you look at the theory of inflation of the universe during the Big Bang, early parts of the Big Bang and even now as the expansion of the universe continues to get bigger and faster, scientists are now stating that space-time itself is being created and that's why you have this expansion of the universe occurring faster and faster and faster."
},
{
"end_time": 1680.247,
"index": 67,
"start_time": 1651.527,
"text": " And that's when you look at that case in point, let me see if I can bring this to a little bit easier to understand. The universe has been estimated to be almost not quite 14 billion years old, right? And yet when you ask the scientists how big is our visible universe from end to end, they say it's about 94 billion light years across. Well, how can that be? Because that means the universe has to be expanding faster than the speed of light."
},
{
"end_time": 1708.422,
"index": 68,
"start_time": 1680.794,
"text": " not necessarily. What's happening in theory is that actual space-time itself is expanding as well. Think of probably the best way to explain it would be, imagine water seeping up from the bottom of the bathtub and filling up the bathtub. It's filling up from all sorts of little pores. Water's coming out everywhere, not just out of the spigot, but everywhere. It's starting to fill up the tub. If that is the case, then"
},
{
"end_time": 1723.609,
"index": 69,
"start_time": 1708.916,
"text": " Again, the notion back to where we are in the universe is always changing. In fact, when you say to yourself, and it's a little bit scary to do, but you say, I'll be here tomorrow. No, you won't. You will never be here again. And you can't. It's impossible because"
},
{
"end_time": 1751.954,
"index": 70,
"start_time": 1724.104,
"text": " the entire universe isn't static, it's moving. And the only way to know where you are is only relative to other people and where they are. And by the way, they're just as lost as we are. So, and I don't mean that just figuratively, I mean that physically, you know, we are all kind of, kind of scattered to the winds together. And the only way we can kind of relate to each other is, oh, you're, you're, you're kind of close to me. So I guess relative, you know, you're, you're six foot and I'm five foot, you know, nine and, and, and we gauge things."
},
{
"end_time": 1767.022,
"index": 71,
"start_time": 1752.159,
"text": " We invented time so we know when to meet for lunch tomorrow, but in reality we just observe entropy."
},
{
"end_time": 1783.097,
"index": 72,
"start_time": 1769.292,
"text": " That's okay. I just like to bring things down to a mathematical level for some of the people who are more interested. So the relational view that Lou outlined, you can read more about it in a relational view of quantum mechanics by Carlo Rovelli."
},
{
"end_time": 1800.657,
"index": 73,
"start_time": 1783.404,
"text": " And then this arbitrariness of setting one's location, when Lou was asking me where is Toronto and it's in Canada and then where is Earth and so on, that is called general covariance and that's where the principle of, well, that's where general relativity comes out from. So if you want to learn more for those who are interested in mathematical details, that's what you can look up."
},
{
"end_time": 1828.234,
"index": 74,
"start_time": 1801.032,
"text": " Okay, now I'm curious about the reason for secrecy behind this whole UAP phenomenon. And I'm curious, do you believe that it's profit driven primarily, or that it's so profit driven by the private sector, or profit driven by the governmental sector, or that it's altruistically motivated, like Tom DeLong may espouse or Tom DeLong believes? Are we talking what can we can you identify what exactly are we asking about? What is the"
},
{
"end_time": 1854.377,
"index": 75,
"start_time": 1828.746,
"text": " There's much that is covered up about the reason for secrecy. You're asking about what what is you're asking my opinion on the motivation behind it. It's my opinion, just by looking at the simple record that we that we can that we can distill that made front page news that did get reported that wasn't completely redacted. I think we see a great a great deal of shock and confusion. And if we're to assume"
},
{
"end_time": 1883.302,
"index": 76,
"start_time": 1855.333,
"text": " that some of what we all assume about crashes and bodies and things like that, if that occurred, we're still debating what that would do to our religions, our society, our culture, our stock market, all of those things. We still debate that to today with a pretty split constituency of who believes that we're ready and who believes that we're not. And I think we can see a natural progression of not understanding something"
},
{
"end_time": 1912.329,
"index": 77,
"start_time": 1883.797,
"text": " wanting to understand it before they made it public. But then human nature probably, I can imagine, took over. And so power mongering, greed, idea mongering, you know, thought, if that makes sense, wanting to keep, you know, important ideas to yourself, I can see that that would have happened already. But I still think that the government that I, the military that I worked in, and the government that I operated in and around,"
},
{
"end_time": 1938.319,
"index": 78,
"start_time": 1912.602,
"text": " was made of just regular folks like us. And this is an incredibly daunting subject. And so I can see where it would have continually been kicked down the road. That's just my opinion, just from from looking at what's in the public record. What do you mean by that? It would have been continually kicked down the road? No, I've never met anyone who wants to take responsibility for this."
},
{
"end_time": 1959.445,
"index": 79,
"start_time": 1938.746,
"text": " And it's one of the things that made Lou very interesting a few years ago when he appeared was that he was, he had the courage to do it. And he wasn't doing it in the same way everybody else did it. And he wasn't asking for your money. And he wasn't on the same nonsensical, you know, the TV shows, I shouldn't say the nonsensical television shows, the things that are where you sandwich important information in between fiction."
},
{
"end_time": 1989.445,
"index": 80,
"start_time": 1960.094,
"text": " It always leaves a plausible deniability. And Lou doesn't mess with that stuff. It's like, look, here's my record. And now we can see the people that tried to silence him. And so it was very, very different. Where are all the other Lou's? We know they existed. Where are all the other program managers? Where are the foreign program managers? They're not speaking up. There's a lot of simple questions as to why, whether they've been threatened, whether they're under NDA."
},
{
"end_time": 2019.138,
"index": 81,
"start_time": 1990.026,
"text": " But I talk to a lot of people every day who want to help in this subject, very high profile people. But they don't want their names out there yet attached to it. They believe in it, they think it's real. But they're still waiting for that tipping point to where we stop laughing at it, where it stops ruining careers and ruining brands or, or changing people's minds about you as an individual. It's primarily stigma that's keeping them from speaking out non anonymously."
},
{
"end_time": 2047.534,
"index": 82,
"start_time": 2019.753,
"text": " I would say that primarily stigma and wanting to... Let me try to make an analogy here. If I came back to the tribe around the campfire and I brought a power saw, what are we going to use it for? It has a purpose. It's for cutting wood."
},
{
"end_time": 2077.961,
"index": 83,
"start_time": 2048.2,
"text": " But a lot of the folks in the tribe are probably going to want to use it to go take over the other tribe next door, because it's the most powerful weapon they've ever seen. And right there, we may just be talking about human nature. But I think that there's so much of our humanity wrapped up in the answers that we all assume are part of this, that very few people have been willing to take responsibility in any way, shape or form. Lou, what do you believe to be the primary reason for lack of transparency?"
},
{
"end_time": 2105.435,
"index": 84,
"start_time": 2078.302,
"text": " Yeah, I'm a little more practical and probably a little bit more less optimistic for our species on this particular question. What if there was knowledge, Kurt, that was so volatile, so earth shattering, that the mere knowledge of that getting out could predicate"
},
{
"end_time": 2127.568,
"index": 85,
"start_time": 2105.947,
"text": " an action that could potentially threaten the entire species. Now, what do I mean by that? For just a moment, take off the scientific hat, take off your humanitarian hat, take off your philanthropic hat and put on a hat of national security."
},
{
"end_time": 2148.285,
"index": 86,
"start_time": 2128.029,
"text": " We just talked about the fact that there's no indication that these things have been here to help us. So there's really only three possibilities. They're benign, or if you will, benevolent, or two, they are malevolent, they're here to hurt us, or three, they're just here to observe us and they're capable of doing both good and bad like us. Well,"
},
{
"end_time": 2172.722,
"index": 87,
"start_time": 2148.916,
"text": " If you were to put on your national security hat for a second, let's say you're a general from the 1950s or 60s and your job is to protect America and all things good and great and the height of the Cold War and you've got the Soviet bear across there, things are pretty tough, right? And nuclear proliferation is a real thing. Now, you have information that there is something here that can outperform anything you have."
},
{
"end_time": 2194.599,
"index": 88,
"start_time": 2173.217,
"text": " and really anything you have is rather ineffective from a national security perspective. And there's a thing out there, and it doesn't show that it's being benevolent. So it's only one or two other options, either malevolent or it's like us. And we see this very careful ISR surveillance of our nuclear equities. It's interested in nuclear equities. Well,"
},
{
"end_time": 2223.285,
"index": 89,
"start_time": 2194.872,
"text": " Some may look at that as what we call preparation for the battlefield. Okay. And let's just say hypothetically, there's a 10% chance you assess a 10% chance that these things are bad or one day they're going to come here in force and they're just, they're, they're, they're looking at us, right? Remember you're putting on your national security hat to forget about everything else for a moment. Your job is to be paranoid. And there's a small remote chance that these things are not good. And maybe there is a plan for these things at some point to come in force in 50 years from now."
},
{
"end_time": 2248.37,
"index": 90,
"start_time": 2224.053,
"text": " And if the mere fact you have this conversation with the American people, what's going to happen? Well, the American people are going to start getting prepared. Well, you know, I can tell you in real life combat situations, when we send in long range surveillance, LURS teams, you know, behind enemy lines, the moment the enemy finds out that we know that they know we're there, the element of surprise is over. And so ultimately,"
},
{
"end_time": 2274.172,
"index": 91,
"start_time": 2248.763,
"text": " hypothetically imagine a scenario where maybe we had 50 years to prepare for something, but now that the cat's out of the bag, that existential action will happen tomorrow. And by the way, we're not ready for it. We're not prepared for it. We don't have a countermeasure. We don't have a capability to counter this. And so from a very real perspective, a national security perspective, the mere fact that you are acknowledging the existence of something may predicate an action or an act that you're not prepared to have right now."
},
{
"end_time": 2297.585,
"index": 92,
"start_time": 2274.991,
"text": " And so I encourage you and your listeners to just for a moment, I'm not asking you to be a national security person, but I'm asking you to suspend your personal beliefs right now for just a moment, and put yourself in somebody else's shoes who does feel that way, right? Now what do you do? If the mere fact of talking about this could potentially cause a reaction that you're not ready for as a country, as a civilization,"
},
{
"end_time": 2327.5,
"index": 93,
"start_time": 2298.029,
"text": " Right? Maybe that's the reason why you decide to only brief certain presidents who have a background in intelligence. Maybe they were former directors of CIA, but the other presidents who are career politicians will be, you know, they're here today, gone in four years. Maybe you can't even risk telling them. And so maybe the reason why this has been kept secret so long is actually in a weird sense, some sort of sense of patriotism by people. And, and, you know, maybe maybe that's how they justify it. And I'll leave that at that as a, you know, just to"
},
{
"end_time": 2346.323,
"index": 94,
"start_time": 2328.08,
"text": " as a counterpoint of forcing people to think maybe a little bit non-traditionally. Now, do I think if that happened to ever be the case, that's a good explanation? No. I still think that we have to be honest with the American people. I've said this before, it's like going to the doctor."
},
{
"end_time": 2361.834,
"index": 95,
"start_time": 2347.261,
"text": " Just because I have cancer, it's bad news. Don't keep that from me. I want to know because maybe there's a chance I can do something about it. But do I understand that mentality? Sure. Nobody wants to give anybody bad news. Now, am I saying that's the case? No, I'm not."
},
{
"end_time": 2385.009,
"index": 96,
"start_time": 2362.022,
"text": " It's just, you asked me one of the reasons why people would want to keep this secret. Well, that's a really damn good reason why people may want to keep this secret because the mere fact of not keeping it secret could cause a reaction that you're not ready for yet. There's nothing you can do. You don't have a countermeasure. So again, from a national security perspective, that makes sense. Again, I don't agree with it, but that's understandable."
},
{
"end_time": 2394.138,
"index": 97,
"start_time": 2385.35,
"text": " What should I do then as someone who? That's a wrong question to ask. Sean can give you advice on that. I can't tell you what to do."
},
{
"end_time": 2419.684,
"index": 98,
"start_time": 2394.497,
"text": " That's my problem. So when we go down this rabbit hole, people want to know what should they do about it. That's not for me to answer. That's for you to answer yourself. I can't tell you what to do about it. I can't tell you what to I can give you like, hey, look, you've been diagnosed with cancer, you should get treatment. But how you get that treatment and who you get it from and how you decide to do it, that's on you, brother. That's not me. It would be overstepping my bounds to even begin"
},
{
"end_time": 2445.555,
"index": 99,
"start_time": 2419.684,
"text": " This is where people go wrong in this whole area of ufology and UFOs because they want, well, what do I do about it? And people are really quick to tell them, well, this is what you should do. You should subscribe and you should give me money and I'll teach you how to do this. That's horse shit. No, you figure that shit out. That's you. Don't ask me because I'm not smart enough to tell you what's in your best interest. Only you can make that decision. I'm smart to tell me what's in my best interest."
},
{
"end_time": 2470.316,
"index": 100,
"start_time": 2445.947,
"text": " But I can't tell you what's in your best interest and I won't. And that's overstepping my bounds. I don't know if Sean has a, I'm sure Sean probably has his own perspective, but I'll share it now. I don't think Lou is passionate enough. So Sean, if you could please. For me, it comes down to the fact that, you know, while doing this the last couple of years, I've been offered a lot of opportunity, opportunity that might've been fun."
},
{
"end_time": 2499.121,
"index": 101,
"start_time": 2470.913,
"text": " But it would have tainted everything that I thought was important about this. And it would have confused people. And it would have placed me into a bucket of saying, ah, he's just trying to make money. He's just trying to do this, that, and the other. I've given a lot of thought to that over the years, man. And what motivates me, and the reason that I'm here, and the reason that I'm not saying, what can I do? Lou didn't come up to me at any point in the last four years and go, this is what I need you to do, Sean. That hasn't happened. We've become colleagues. And then we become equals together, working together."
},
{
"end_time": 2529.07,
"index": 102,
"start_time": 2499.411,
"text": " But I had to find my own road for this. And for me, I had to really put a lot of thought into that because at the time that I met Lou, I was teaching meditation. I was trying to lead a very different life. And a lot of the aspects that bump into that kind of thing in UAP are still very important to me. However, that wasn't the most effective thing for me. The most effective thing for me was taking my career as a Master at Arms and as a chief in the Navy and taking the story of my involvement in the Tic Tac event in 2004."
},
{
"end_time": 2547.483,
"index": 103,
"start_time": 2529.667,
"text": " and utilizing that moment in time that we had with unidentified and with a few other things to reach out and have a conversation with people who didn't have a chance to see all that information, who didn't understand that this had occurred and that it was real. And then they began socializing that at a higher and higher level."
},
{
"end_time": 2572.5,
"index": 104,
"start_time": 2547.858,
"text": " until the people that can actually affect actual change were reaching out and they were interested in how we could do things. And as we had progressed along that line, we created a network of concerned individuals. And that's how I got here. Now, a lot of other people out there, they have very specific skill sets. I get contacted by lawyers, I get contacted by software developers and even"
},
{
"end_time": 2599.497,
"index": 105,
"start_time": 2573.473,
"text": " manufacturers, diecast folks, and they're like, how can we help? And it's like, I don't need to cast anything. And I can't afford a lawyer. When JFK said ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country, what he was saying was stop. Don't keep asking for answers. You have to find"
},
{
"end_time": 2621.254,
"index": 106,
"start_time": 2602.295,
"text": " And I know that that overwhelms a lot of people, but it doesn't have to be huge. You know what I mean? Not everybody's Luke Skywalker. Some folks are doing a great deal of help lifting people up so they can finally press a button or finally grab a gold ring. And if it's a team,"
},
{
"end_time": 2649.155,
"index": 107,
"start_time": 2622.807,
"text": " None of that's ever, I'm kind of just pontificating, but none of that's not in a vacuum, man. We have to find out what we need, what we need out of this. It's not a recruitable subject. It's not like we get enough buses full of people and we're going to drive to the thing and we're going to wave a sign and get what we need. It's not quite like that. So, Kurt, you want to know what my number one advice is. And I'm going to let Sean explain this because Sean does a better job than I do. But when people say what they ask you to do, what's the first thing I should do?"
},
{
"end_time": 2667.193,
"index": 108,
"start_time": 2649.531,
"text": " Turn to your children, turn to your loved ones and love them. Invest in your relationship with your loved ones and your friends."
},
{
"end_time": 2688.456,
"index": 109,
"start_time": 2667.5,
"text": " start with that and people get mad. It's like, well, what the hell does that have to do with the topic of UAPs and anything else? This has everything to do with it. Because if you don't stop to do that, and realize what's really important in life, then everything else is"
},
{
"end_time": 2715.794,
"index": 110,
"start_time": 2689.599,
"text": " Turn around and tell your loved ones that you love them. Remind them that you love them."
},
{
"end_time": 2738.046,
"index": 111,
"start_time": 2716.63,
"text": " And that's that's where you start. But I'll let Sean jump in on that, because he does a much better job explaining it than I do. Lou gave me that. Oh, go ahead. Lou, just a follow up on this. If you can hold your bladder. Yeah. OK. Well, then think about this, because I'm curious, what is it that you tell your children about the phenomenon? You got it. I'll answer that after Sean's done."
},
{
"end_time": 2767.5,
"index": 112,
"start_time": 2740.503,
"text": " When I first met Lou, this was too daunting on the subject. It was too big of a playing field. There were too many details and too much going on. And it was kind of freaking me out, you know, because very early on a few years ago, I accepted that this was real all in a rush and then started doing more research in different areas. Some of this can be pretty heavy sometimes. And I turned to him and I was, I didn't know what to do. And he said, you need to check your foundations."
},
{
"end_time": 2796.493,
"index": 113,
"start_time": 2768.285,
"text": " Basically, what it came down to is achieving world peace while coming from a busted home where people are living in fear or where there's no communication and no love isn't worthwhile. That's not the mission. The mission here is to, I call it, this kind of gets a little woo, but I call it my creations and my covenants. That's what I'm beholden to, and those are my children and my wife."
},
{
"end_time": 2825.674,
"index": 114,
"start_time": 2796.954,
"text": " First of all, and then my circle of family and my circle extends out there to my friends and my family and larger family and things like that. But I am truly beholden to those people in my house, to my wife and children. And I can't ignore them. And that means that I have to choose to be the right person in that house. And that means that I have to choose to look for my faults and to be self-aware and to try to be the best person that I can in that environment, because it is truly where everything else stems from."
},
{
"end_time": 2854.889,
"index": 115,
"start_time": 2826.152,
"text": " If you're not doing the right thing with the people that you love the most that are closest to you, why do you feel the need to mount a horse and ride off on this crusade to change the world? Truly start changing the world where you are and where you begin and then turn towards slaying the dragon. And it makes slaying the dragon a much more logical, much more easy process because your heart's in a state where it knows right from wrong."
},
{
"end_time": 2885.111,
"index": 116,
"start_time": 2855.316,
"text": " And it knows where to go next. It's not bogged down by the worry, frankly, that we all take to work with us every day. You know what I mean? We all get up in the morning wondering about the go to bed angry, wondering about the argument of the kids grades like this. How is this relationship panning out? Are we going to separate? We've all got these things going on. But if we all decided to take the kind of effort that we wanted to apply to ufology, turn around in the short term even, and applied it in our own lives and our homes,"
},
{
"end_time": 2914.974,
"index": 117,
"start_time": 2885.998,
"text": " Suddenly these larger battles become much easier. Thank you, Sean. Now, Lou, do you have an answer to that question, which is what is it that you tell your family slash children about the phenomenon? If I need to find their own answers, we're all trying to figure this out together and it's okay to be excited. It's okay to be scared. It's okay to be whatever human emotion you need to ascribe to it."
},
{
"end_time": 2944.531,
"index": 118,
"start_time": 2915.384,
"text": " It's okay. I think honesty and truth is the best remedy always. That will get us through pretty much anything, even when the news is bad, even when the news is good. I try not to think for anybody. Don't try to think for my kids or my spouse or my friends. The only person I can think for is me."
},
{
"end_time": 2974.565,
"index": 119,
"start_time": 2945.435,
"text": " I tell my kids, just be kind to one another, be kind to the world as much as you can, try to give back more than you take. Because I think whether you're talking about UFOs or anything else, that's sound advice. If you want to think about UFOs, well, it depends on how you lead your life as a human being, which is going to take you down the road. Look, there's"
},
{
"end_time": 3004.07,
"index": 120,
"start_time": 2975.845,
"text": " There's a lot of people out there that want to hijack the narrative. But it's not just because it's a UFO thing. It's because that's the kind of people they are. They will do that with anything and any opportunity that they're given. UFOs is just one of them. But there are people out there that will try to do that and hijack that. And it's a shame. But I can't change those people. I'm not going to. I'm not going to waste my time changing those people."
},
{
"end_time": 3030.316,
"index": 121,
"start_time": 3004.514,
"text": " They have to deal with that on their own terms. And that's on them. Look, there's bad people. I face them in Washington. I face them on the battlefield. I face them every day when someone is trying to mug you or carjack you or something like that. There's just bad people out there. So anyways, that's my two cents, maybe three cents."
},
{
"end_time": 3046.101,
"index": 122,
"start_time": 3031.937,
"text": " Okay I'm going to get to some audience questions and just so you know the set of audience questions this time is of extreme high quality and that's saying plenty given some of the quality that's been on this channel and much of that's due to"
},
{
"end_time": 3066.903,
"index": 123,
"start_time": 3046.493,
"text": " the culling of the questions and the ordering of the questions from that UFO podcast, which is to be specific, Andy and Dan, and they graciously helped me out with these questions. So if you like the theories of everything podcast, and I'm someone who's asinine and sophomore when it comes to this topic, then you'll gain a great deal from watching that UFO podcast and the link is in the description to subscribe to them."
},
{
"end_time": 3096.203,
"index": 124,
"start_time": 3067.381,
"text": " So this question comes from Matriac, directed to both of you. If you could start over and pursue a different educational path with the hopes of understanding UAPs more fully, what degree would you choose? Sean, you want to tackle that one? Yeah. I don't know if the curriculum exists. It's a tough question. There's not one for me that fits it."
},
{
"end_time": 3117.944,
"index": 125,
"start_time": 3096.715,
"text": " I'm a generalist. I'm a student of the human condition. Sorry, it's an interruption. I'll give you an example. Earlier, about a few months ago, when I was speaking with you, Lou, and you gave me the question, Kurt, what if you wanted some thing to survive generations and generations and millions of years? And I said, well, perhaps"
},
{
"end_time": 3148.439,
"index": 126,
"start_time": 3118.575,
"text": " nanotechnology or metamaterials and launch it into space. So that's materials engineering. And you said, well, perhaps you should think about DNA. Okay, so that's biology. So those would be two different fields to go in if one was thinking about the preservation of some objects some length of time. Can I jump in on that? I would I would probably start with philosophy. And why is that? Because philosophy is one of the few areas that teaches you how to think and not what to think, right?"
},
{
"end_time": 3177.619,
"index": 127,
"start_time": 3149.189,
"text": " In the topic of UAPs, it's not a matter of what, it's how. How do we process the data? How does this apply to our species? Where we're going, where we're from, et cetera. There's very few academic pursuits that teach somebody how to think. Most people, and I can tell you this from personal experience with my children, most schools teach kids what to think. And that's a problem because we've forgotten what real teaching is about."
},
{
"end_time": 3202.415,
"index": 128,
"start_time": 3177.858,
"text": " I can instruct somebody on how to do something, but real teaching, real teaching is something different. A lot of the Eastern philosophies understood that. It's not teaching somebody the specifics. It's teaching somebody how to find the data themselves. And I think I would probably"
},
{
"end_time": 3227.295,
"index": 129,
"start_time": 3203.336,
"text": " Start with that, maybe do some reading on people who look at things maybe a little bit differently and are prescribing you what to think, but more importantly, again, how to think. I was going to joke philosopher ninja because frankly, I completely agree with Lou. I don't want to hit a"
},
{
"end_time": 3247.039,
"index": 130,
"start_time": 3229.155,
"text": " buzzword by saying consciousness, because a lot of people, that's another conflated term. But philosophy with an eye towards protecting the human race, I think is something that's what I would want. I would want someone who's looking out for all of the people,"
},
{
"end_time": 3277.381,
"index": 131,
"start_time": 3247.551,
"text": " who can think deeply and who can arrive at different solutions, because this is a different paradigm. This is not in the rule books. If anything has been other in our experience, it's UAP. And so our ability to understand that is going to absolutely begin in our ability to understand ourselves first. So that when we encounter this thing that is so strange, that it's so beyond our understanding, that we have the"
},
{
"end_time": 3308.217,
"index": 132,
"start_time": 3278.609,
"text": " We have the self-awareness to survive that. The old story, do you give a man a fish or do you teach a man how to fish? Feed him for a day or feed him for life. And I think that's what is important here. People should not ask for a piece of fish. Learn how to fish and ask the questions yourself and find the answers yourself so you're not relying on other people to give those answers for you."
},
{
"end_time": 3337.073,
"index": 133,
"start_time": 3311.101,
"text": " Is there another field? So let's imagine that philosophy was underway, you're allowed a double major. I would say probably. Is there a course on comic relief? Look, you got it, you got to keep your sanity in this, you can't lose yourself. I'll be the first one to admit that, you know, there's times I'll call Sean or others that I trust, you know, in the middle of the night, just event and something, you know, can you believe"
},
{
"end_time": 3362.841,
"index": 134,
"start_time": 3337.449,
"text": " that you do all this and people are out there just making a bullshit about you and you got to take it with a grain of salt and it's hard. It really is, especially when you're trying to do something really to the benefit of everybody and people ascribe all to your motives and they're out there. I'm not going to go into detail, but it's bad and you got to be willing to"
},
{
"end_time": 3392.978,
"index": 135,
"start_time": 3364.428,
"text": " take that kind of heat. For me, I spend a lot of my time cutting my teeth in various bad places around the world. And I'll tell you, in combat, when someone's shooting at you or rocketing you or murdering you, I never took it personally. I didn't like it, but I never took it personally because that's warfare. But this is different when your own fellow citizens are doing things that they do sometimes because of personal bias or whatever."
},
{
"end_time": 3422.073,
"index": 136,
"start_time": 3393.404,
"text": " selfish motivations in some cases that hurts because these are your fellow citizens, right? This is the reason why you went to war in the first place. And now these people are, are, are doing and saying terrible things. Um, you've got to learn how to take that with a grain of salt and not take it personally. And it's tough. It really is Kurt, you know, it is, you know, we're all human beings. We all have emotions. We're all emotional creatures. And I think it's, it's, my advice would be, look, you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 3449.155,
"index": 137,
"start_time": 3423.251,
"text": " Go see a comedy. Learn a course in comic relief because you got to keep yourself sane. Otherwise, you will burn out far too early. Shaun? Part of me wants to say game theory, honestly. I want to take your question seriously. I think philosophy."
},
{
"end_time": 3477.125,
"index": 138,
"start_time": 3449.497,
"text": " game theory, an understanding of the martial sciences, and an ability to think with self-awareness, to be a self-aware human being, to be a fully realized human being who has done their shadow work, for lack of a better word, you know, in a Jungian sense, who's climbed through their hero's journey, who knows what those things mean because they are learned enough to try to understand what this life is and to try to find"
},
{
"end_time": 3507.637,
"index": 139,
"start_time": 3480.282,
"text": " This next question comes from Jesse Mitchell of American Alchemy and the link to his YouTube channel is in the description and is directed toward you, Lu. How is your background in parapsychology dovetailed with the phenomenon?"
},
{
"end_time": 3537.466,
"index": 140,
"start_time": 3509.07,
"text": " Wow. So great question from Jesse. My background in formal education was microbiology, immunology, and paracytology, not parapsychology. But as a lot of people know, I did spend some time in my career working alongside people like Hal Pudoff and whatnot and Kit Green and folks that have been exposed to that side of the US government regarding"
},
{
"end_time": 3560.811,
"index": 141,
"start_time": 3538.387,
"text": " paranormal, I guess we can call it. Let me state this first and foremost. Let's not forget everything in science is paranormal until it becomes normal. This very phone here 100 years ago, certainly paranormal. If I say the word parachute, people think of a life-saving device that deploys and helps you hit the ground more with a wump instead of a thump."
},
{
"end_time": 3590.964,
"index": 142,
"start_time": 3561.254,
"text": " If I say the word paramedic, you think of a first responder, someone there who's giving you an IV and maybe saving your life, right? They're all based on the Latin word para, you know, beside or above and then whatever the word is. When you say paranormal, it just means beyond normal. But the associated stigma with the word paranormal really, really paralyzes any further conversation because people all of a sudden will kind of look, they'll cock their head, maybe they'll smile at you a little bit and kind of like, what do you mean paranormal? Well,"
},
{
"end_time": 3618.49,
"index": 143,
"start_time": 3591.578,
"text": " I just mean something that hasn't been normalized yet. Everything in science, by definition, again, is paranormal until it becomes normal. Let's not forget that every law and principle we have in science now started off as someone's wacky, zany idea. Look at Galileo, right? They almost killed him for the fact that he proposed that the Earth was not the center of the solar system based upon Copernicus. And yet there were people that even refused to look through his telescope."
},
{
"end_time": 3636.169,
"index": 144,
"start_time": 3618.865,
"text": " Because it was an insult, it was an affront to their preconceived notions. It was paranormal. And here we are now looking at it quite normally. And so I think we forget that Mother Nature has a vote."
},
{
"end_time": 3661.8,
"index": 145,
"start_time": 3636.391,
"text": " Mother Nature is wondrous, and Mother Nature always defies labels. She defies definition most of the time. Every time we try to describe what life is and put it in a nice neat little box, she proves us wrong. She proves us she is paranormal. Let me give you an example. Kurt, when I was a kid, I learned that all life was basically, it was based upon photosynthesis, right? All life."
},
{
"end_time": 3683.797,
"index": 146,
"start_time": 3662.329,
"text": " And it turns out that's not the case. There's animals in the deep parts of the ocean that survive off of chemosynthesis, near black smokers. Then you learn that all life depends on, has to have DNA. Well, now along come things like viruses where we realize, well, it has RNA, it doesn't have DNA, and yet it still replicates and does a lot of things that living things do. So is that life?"
},
{
"end_time": 3708.865,
"index": 147,
"start_time": 3684.258,
"text": " Then you have extremophiles that live the deepest parts of high-pressure Antarctic, very cold, very high-pressure ice, miles beneath the Antarctic ice, miles beneath the surface of the Earth itself. In fact, even in the tallest mountains, we find microbial life hitching rides on our rockets into space and frankly doing quite well."
},
{
"end_time": 3730.879,
"index": 148,
"start_time": 3709.326,
"text": " So what does that mean? What does that mean? Well, it means that maybe most of the universe is paranormal. It is just beyond our reach. And our quest is to make the paranormal normal. How does it prepare you for this topic? I think it keeps you humble to some degree."
},
{
"end_time": 3761.101,
"index": 149,
"start_time": 3731.561,
"text": " I think it's amazing. I'm not scared of it. I think it's wondrous. I think the human being is a most profound, complex piece of machinery. And I think there's other aspects to the human being that we're just now beginning to explore. I think life itself. You know, let me ask you this, Kurt, you have quite a big background in physics. So I'm not nearly as smart or well-versed as you in this field. But let me ask you a question. What is energy? What is it? Can you define it for me?"
},
{
"end_time": 3790.503,
"index": 150,
"start_time": 3766.408,
"text": " Technically matter is what is a part of a matter field and there's a technical definition for matter that's based on observations. This question of what is then you can ask well what is the number five and then what is anything. Anytime one gives an answer then it's like a child asking why behind that question and that's valid."
},
{
"end_time": 3820.367,
"index": 151,
"start_time": 3791.425,
"text": " Well, my point being is that we have these principles in science such as gravity, such as matter, such as energy, we've described, we even have mathematics to describe how they behave and yet we still don't know what it actually is. What is it? What is it? Yeah, here's a question for you about that. It's something I've been thinking about. What answer could someone give that would be satisfactory? Like, what could an answer be that would make someone say, okay, now I understand what it is? Well, we may be asking the wrong question."
},
{
"end_time": 3849.787,
"index": 152,
"start_time": 3820.913,
"text": " What it is may be nonsensical, because maybe the question is, why is it? It may not be a what. It might be a why. It might be a where. It might be a when, believe it or not. It may not be a what. Let me throw in that folks should be... Sorry, this is going to make me sound really old. Folks should use their dictionary more, because we have so many words in this field specifically that have assumed meanings due to the way they've been used in the past and associated"
},
{
"end_time": 3870.964,
"index": 153,
"start_time": 3850.282,
"text": " that color people's judgment on things. For example, if I said to you the occult, that paints something in all of our heads, but at the moment, my right hand is occult. Now, if you don't understand what that word means, you're painting your ignorance with your perception. You're telling me that"
},
{
"end_time": 3901.067,
"index": 154,
"start_time": 3871.732,
"text": " We waste so much time with people who go down these assumptive rabbit holes based on what they think words mean and the way that people use them and they assign, they just keep running with it. And I want us to back off on that in the community in general and start using better words. Like we have to explain the word paranormal. Paranormal doesn't mean Ghostbusters. It means the edges of perception. It's that simple. Now some people want to say it means ghosts and goblins and werewolves"
},
{
"end_time": 3925.998,
"index": 155,
"start_time": 3901.664,
"text": " I'm just so evidence-based when it comes to this. I love to talk the philosophy, but we do mix the philosophy with the nuts and bolts a lot of times and make far too great of a leap, I think."
},
{
"end_time": 3948.882,
"index": 156,
"start_time": 3926.903,
"text": " Okay, this next question comes from Bill Yates. It's a live question. It says, I have aphantasia. So it means that one lacks a mind's eye, lacks inner sound, feeling, and even hearing. How does Lou, and you Sean as well, think the phenomenon would interact with someone such as himself, such as Bill Yates? I would say perhaps even more intimately, we don't know because"
},
{
"end_time": 3976.084,
"index": 157,
"start_time": 3949.309,
"text": " People who suffer from that also sometimes have other abilities that we don't really have because they have a heightened sense in other areas. We know that there are people, for example, who are blind and they can echolocate. They can actually use sound to have in their mind's eye an understanding of the environment around them. Now that seems kind of crazy for us. And yet we see it in nature all the time, whether it's dolphins or bats or anything else."
},
{
"end_time": 4005.299,
"index": 158,
"start_time": 3976.613,
"text": " You know, there are people who who are certainly suffer from, for example, autism, extreme forms of autism, and yet they have photographic memory, they can do incredible extreme mathematical computations in their heads, they can, they're piano virtuosos, right, and have never never had any formal training in it. How is that possible? Well, it's possible because the human brain is, first of all, it's wonderfully equipped, and it's an incredible organ."
},
{
"end_time": 4025.452,
"index": 159,
"start_time": 4005.794,
"text": " But it's, it's, it's, it's still very little understood about the human brain. And, you know, sometimes there's an old, I'll answer your question, but maybe a little bit more succinctly. There was a young student who was trying to learn from the master and the master says, do you, do you now see."
},
{
"end_time": 4038.387,
"index": 160,
"start_time": 4025.742,
"text": " Young student says, no, master, I've been looking for months and months and months at the sunset. You've been telling me to look at near the mountain over the mountain and I still don't see and the master says to the student,"
},
{
"end_time": 4057.022,
"index": 161,
"start_time": 4039.206,
"text": " Razor blades are like diving boards. The longer the board, the more the wobble, the more the wobble, the more nicks, cuts, scrapes. A bad shave isn't a blade problem, it's an extension problem. Henson is a family-owned aerospace parts manufacturer that's made parts for the International Space Station and the Mars Rover."
},
{
"end_time": 4085.486,
"index": 162,
"start_time": 4057.022,
"text": " Now they're bringing that precision engineering to your shaving experience. By using aerospace-grade CNC machines, Henson makes razors that extend less than the thickness of a human hair. The razor also has built-in channels that evacuates hair and cream, which make clogging virtually impossible. Henson Shaving wants to produce the best razors, not the best razor business, so that means no plastics, no subscriptions, no proprietary blades, and no planned obsolescence."
},
{
"end_time": 4101.886,
"index": 163,
"start_time": 4085.486,
"text": " It's also extremely affordable. The Henson razor works with the standard dual edge blades that give you that old school shave with the benefits of this new school tech. It's time to say no to subscriptions and yes to a razor that'll last you a lifetime. Visit hensonshaving.com slash everything."
},
{
"end_time": 4125.896,
"index": 164,
"start_time": 4101.886,
"text": " If you use that code, you'll get two years worth of blades for free. Just make sure to add them to the cart. Plus 100 free blades when you head to H E N S O N S H A V I N G dot com slash everything and use the code everything. In order to see, sometimes you have to close your eyes and you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 4155.316,
"index": 165,
"start_time": 4126.408,
"text": " There you go. Sometimes you can actually see more clearly by closing your eyes than you can see with your eyes open. In other words, we have preconceptions that could be removed and then that would give us a greater understanding or insight. Yeah, I mean, sometimes our sense is foolish. Look at an optical illusion. An optical illusion is just that where our eyes are telling us one thing, but reality is something different. And in this case, our senses are failing us. Not all senses are necessarily beneficial and they can be fooled. They can be spoofed."
},
{
"end_time": 4183.763,
"index": 166,
"start_time": 4155.759,
"text": " Human vision is just another sensor collection system, like hearing and touching and tasting and whatnot. And we know they can be spoofed. Our feelings can be spoofed, right? You can be betrayed by someone. Our sight can be spoofed. You have optical illusions. Our hearing can be spoofed. You know, we're not perfect systems. They can be flawed. And sometimes filtering out certain inputs, certain data can actually be beneficial, perhaps. Sorry, John, I kept interrupting you."
},
{
"end_time": 4210.077,
"index": 167,
"start_time": 4184.735,
"text": " Oh, no, man, it's okay. Interestingly enough, without any official diagnosis, I believe I suffer from aphantasia as well. I don't possess a very vibrant inner mind's eye, except upon waking from dreams or, frankly, very vivid trance states, where I've taken myself down through meditation to a different place."
},
{
"end_time": 4239.326,
"index": 168,
"start_time": 4210.947,
"text": " For me, that was finding out that the word aphantasia existed to me was very important to understanding myself and my mind's eye and what my personal inner experiences. That led to researching things like interoception, understanding the inner workings of the body and the perception of the inner workings of your body. Something you can do through meditation is to actually start to pinpoint certain places of the body and then start to understand their processes."
},
{
"end_time": 4269.991,
"index": 169,
"start_time": 4240.009,
"text": " But beyond that, I put because of things I've witnessed and experienced, and I'm very lucky to have witnessed and experienced some things in the company of others, especially some of the harder to accept things that maybe some people consider like poltergeist activity or things like that. I've been lucky enough to have other witnesses with me to at least say that we saw that thing. We may not know why or what, but that led me to research paraphernia."
},
{
"end_time": 4297.142,
"index": 170,
"start_time": 4270.674,
"text": " And paraphrania is like having schizophrenia without the bad parts. And I did a great deal of searching down the comorbidity of those things. And I find it very interesting that the phenomenon interacts with human consciousness in a way that can mirror mental illness in some. And it seems that if one perseverates on these ideas without finding validity or answers,"
},
{
"end_time": 4325.998,
"index": 171,
"start_time": 4297.449,
"text": " that it may be one of those triggers for mental illness. Now, whether those are parts of our fundamental archetype of our consciousness or not, or whether that's directly due to the phenomenon or not, I can't say. I think all of us has to take the time to go, what's up with me? What's my list of things going on with me? What can I change? What can I understand? And how can I be the most effective human being while observing my own life?"
},
{
"end_time": 4353.353,
"index": 172,
"start_time": 4326.442,
"text": " I don't know if that makes sense. I don't know a lot of people that are interested in living their life in real time, if that makes sense. A lot of folks are looking to jump from one dopamine fix to another, fear avoidance, risk avoidance, and pleasure seeking. And a lot of people would say that that in itself is the human condition. And I don't want to say that I'm holier than now or better than anybody just because I want to check out the societal aspect of a lot of things."
},
{
"end_time": 4382.619,
"index": 173,
"start_time": 4353.575,
"text": " We were talking off air Lou and Sean and myself about how how uncomfortable it is at least for myself and many others judging by the comments it can be to study this phenomenon and just consciousness in general and how that's something that almost no one talks about"
},
{
"end_time": 4410.247,
"index": 174,
"start_time": 4383.063,
"text": " I have an episode with Carl Fursten, who is a neuroscientist, one of the, if not the most cited neuroscientist, just on this, on how destabilizing and debilitating can be. I'm still recovering from, well, if you want, you can watch that episode, people who are interested. By the way, I consider it to be the most important episode of all the theories of everything podcasts, because it sets a stage and talks about something that you may feel extremely uncomfortable with and think that you're alone, but you're not, and you may think that it's hopeless, but it's not."
},
{
"end_time": 4436.288,
"index": 175,
"start_time": 4411.015,
"text": " Jacob Lizzo from Signals, the YouTube channel, the link to that will be in the description, asks to both of you, let's pretend tomorrow an unidentified craft crashes out in the Nevada desert and you are both tasked with recovering the craft, considering your experience and your knowledge. What sort of precautions would you take? What sorts of technology and human resources would you bring with you to aid your investigation? My experience and knowledge in that"
},
{
"end_time": 4462.346,
"index": 176,
"start_time": 4436.544,
"text": " would come from aircraft investigation and aircraft recovery. So I'd first set up a curriculum, so to speak, with my team that spoke about what I had learned about. First of all, when you arrive on a scene, especially of a catastrophic failure of any kind of vehicle, you have to understand that as soon as you get there, you're going to have exposure of chemicals, fuel,"
},
{
"end_time": 4492.688,
"index": 177,
"start_time": 4462.875,
"text": " depending upon, you know, what kind of craft it might be, it could be radiated, you know, we had, we had portions of our, of our training that were, you know, what if a satellite came down or something like that in the wrong place. And this was just from, this was from my law enforcement training, because I had traffic accident, aircraft accident, investigator training as well. I would start there, then I would delve into the established program, programs of record that what they studied, well, they studied"
},
{
"end_time": 4513.541,
"index": 178,
"start_time": 4493.268,
"text": " radiation, radiative effects of something that appeared to be emitting high energy, for lack of a better word. I would get down to first, the most important thing to me would be making sure that my team got in and got out with everything they came in and got out with, that they were safe. Safety is the number one priority. And"
},
{
"end_time": 4534.445,
"index": 179,
"start_time": 4514.053,
"text": " After that, it would be really just dealing with the environmental factors. The people that I would send to do something like that, frankly, I would not send scientists. I would send people that were able to immediately respond to an environment, coordinate off, and then I would call in the scientists."
},
{
"end_time": 4557.193,
"index": 180,
"start_time": 4534.872,
"text": " I'm kind of doing that in real time. I've never been involved with anything like that involving UAP, but I can take what we did with aircraft and maintaining public safety, personal safety of the teams, and I can extrapolate that out to even more stringent safety measures and an even more cautious approach. Because in the end, I would treat it as a crime scene."
},
{
"end_time": 4582.517,
"index": 181,
"start_time": 4557.483,
"text": " We treat, as a first responder, we treat everything like a crime scene because it maintains the evidentiary value of everything. You can't just go stomping through something unless it's to save life or live, if that makes sense. So we wouldn't trump a crime scene unless it was to save somebody else. So I would look out for personal safety. I would look out for ensuring evidentiary value is maintained."
},
{
"end_time": 4605.128,
"index": 182,
"start_time": 4582.892,
"text": " that forensic evidence was maintained under the proper conditions, the chain of custody was maintained under the proper conditions, and that frankly the right people were the ones giving reports. The initial team should be giving data-driven reports, and conclusions and great in-depth forensic investigations would come later."
},
{
"end_time": 4633.456,
"index": 183,
"start_time": 4607.227,
"text": " I would do pretty much the same thing. You know, in essence, and that's probably because Sean and I come from similar backgrounds. But first of all, I'd set up a perimeter to secure it. Then you have to come up with ways to transport it, safeguard it, study it, analyze it, ultimately exploit it. And of course, you're taking precautions. So like, for example, hazmat, how do you transport hazardous material, right? How do you protect your people from being contaminated chemically or radiologically, right? And then of course,"
},
{
"end_time": 4644.292,
"index": 184,
"start_time": 4633.797,
"text": " You want to handle it very much like you would perhaps a TSA investigation of an airplane crash, right? You don't know what you're coming up to, so you've got to approach it as everything is potential evidence."
},
{
"end_time": 4674.206,
"index": 185,
"start_time": 4644.855,
"text": " And so I think you don't know what you don't know. There's the big challenge, right? If there's some sort of danger that you're unaware of, well, then you're unaware of it. There's not a whole lot you can do to prepare for something that you don't know exists. So what you do is you approach it in the way that you do know how to approach things that are perhaps similar, again, like an airplane crash. And that's how I would approach it. I'll get right into that, man."
},
{
"end_time": 4696.323,
"index": 186,
"start_time": 4675.299,
"text": " The first guy that walks into the settlement that only has an atlatl carrying a sword, every person carrying an atlatl in that place wants to exploit that sword. They want to exploit the knowledge of the person holding the sword. What is that material? How did you get it so sharp? How is it so strong? Where did it come from? How do I get one?"
},
{
"end_time": 4712.381,
"index": 187,
"start_time": 4696.852,
"text": " And that's the job, frankly, of the United States government and the military and other apparatuses. That's part of what they do as part of our national defense. If a MIG crashed in Alaska or any other place during the height of the Cold War,"
},
{
"end_time": 4740.179,
"index": 188,
"start_time": 4712.841,
"text": " The exact same team that we're describing would have come in and done the same thing. They would have gotten that evidence, gotten it to a place and said, how the hell does this make work? What frequencies are they transmitting on? How fast does the engine go? What's the load rate, bearing rate of the wings and the weapons pylons? That's what exploitation means. And that's why I say semantically, in a military retrieval sense, it means go get the thing and figure out how it works and figure out how we can make it work to keep our people safe."
},
{
"end_time": 4767.534,
"index": 189,
"start_time": 4741.084,
"text": " And that's what it means. It doesn't mean exploit in the negative sense that we often use with other conversations. You know what I mean? An exploited individual or something like that where someone is using them. Because in this sense, we're talking about material. Material can be used. People should not be used. So material, theories, things like that. That's what the exploitation is. It's an unpacking and understanding."
},
{
"end_time": 4796.834,
"index": 190,
"start_time": 4768.063,
"text": " Yeah, Kurt, there was actually just last week, there was a headline in major news outlets about a crashed F-35 that fell off the deck of a carrier during landing. And the Chinese and the US were in a race to recover it. Now, why do you think the Chinese were in a race to recover a crashed US F-35 aircraft? Well, because they wanted to exploit it. So, you know, that's not unusual. You know, countries do this all the time."
},
{
"end_time": 4821.988,
"index": 191,
"start_time": 4797.637,
"text": " I see. I see. Okay. Euphoric Gur asks to both of you, are you aware of encounters hostile or otherwise where different types of UAPs have been observed interacting with each other? I'll, I'll jump in first. I've said this before and let me, let me emphasize this again. There is a difference between potential threat and hostile intent. Okay."
},
{
"end_time": 4844.172,
"index": 192,
"start_time": 4822.568,
"text": " You know, if there are lots of technology out there that if I misuse it will hurt me. Now, is it the intent of that technology to hurt me? No, it's just a product of me not understanding the technology. The fact that we looked at potential biological effects or consequences in ATIP and are continuing now in this new effort in the law,"
},
{
"end_time": 4872.637,
"index": 193,
"start_time": 4844.48,
"text": " shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. Should not be confused as hostile intent. People say, oh, you're fear mongering. No, it's not fear mongering. You know, if I put my hand in a car door and I slam the car door, my hand's going to hurt. Okay, there's a threat I'm going to break some bones in my hands and do damage. Is it the intent of the car to hurt me? No, I just it's my own fault. I didn't understand how the technology worked and I got hurt by it. Right. And so, you know, there is there is information to suggest that"
},
{
"end_time": 4902.671,
"index": 194,
"start_time": 4873.114,
"text": " People have been injured by UAP technology. Was it necessarily on purpose? We don't have any information to suggest that necessarily. But then if you talk to people who claim to have personal experiences in this, a lot of them claim to be taken against their own will. Well, from my perspective, that's crime. That's called kidnapping. And then some people claim that they've been touched. Well, that's assault, potentially battery. You see where I'm going with this, right?"
},
{
"end_time": 4922.961,
"index": 195,
"start_time": 4903.695,
"text": " I believe this person was referring to the UAPs interacting with other UAPs rather than people."
},
{
"end_time": 4946.869,
"index": 196,
"start_time": 4923.763,
"text": " fighting each other? Are you aware of that? Like different types of them? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I'll reread the question. Are either of you aware of encounters, hostile or otherwise, where different types of UAPs have been observed interacting with each other? So there is, there is, you know, obviously, if you look at some of the old text, and there's something called the Nuremberg incident in Europe,"
},
{
"end_time": 4970.811,
"index": 197,
"start_time": 4947.381,
"text": " where there was reports of what seemed to be some sort of dogfight back in the 1600s, apparently. And it was recorded in something called, it was in Nuremberg, Germany. And they had paintings of this, of different rod shapes and disc shapes and what cigar shaped vehicles apparently fighting each other, like in what seems to be some sort of dogfight over time."
},
{
"end_time": 4999.872,
"index": 198,
"start_time": 4971.254,
"text": " I can't say that was the case in ATIP, but there is some historical information. Of course, I wasn't there, so I can't tell you. All I can tell you is that, allegedly, those type of things may have occurred in the past, but we didn't see any of that in ATIP. I was going to say the Nuremberg woodcutting as well. And other than that, I don't have a really good example. And I'm willing to give that one credence. It's an excellent. It reads really well. And when you look at the woodcutting,"
},
{
"end_time": 5014.753,
"index": 199,
"start_time": 5000.35,
"text": " It's very easy to conflate it with modern reports. It's a very interesting story. I'd love to know what really happened. I don't know. But in general, I've never encountered that in my own work and in my own"
},
{
"end_time": 5038.131,
"index": 200,
"start_time": 5015.93,
"text": " I mean, there's historical even in religious texts, right, where you talk about the Vimana in Hindu texts that would fight each other. And even some Mayan texts as well of different crafts engaging each other. There was a very interesting stone that I had the privilege. I have some pictures, actually very interesting pictures."
},
{
"end_time": 5064.65,
"index": 201,
"start_time": 5038.541,
"text": " that I took in Peru in front of the Air Force Intelligence Office in Lima, Peru. They actually have a formal UFO program that is run by the government and they do very well with it actually. It's a formal investigation that they do of any reported UFO incidents. And there in front of the Air Force Intelligence building are several stones, Inca stones,"
},
{
"end_time": 5090.589,
"index": 202,
"start_time": 5065.196,
"text": " And these are real legitimate Inca stones. Well, I got to tell you, you should look at some of these stones because it's pretty incredible. Some of the things that these stones are depicting really got you scratching your head like people using telescopes, which by the way, didn't exist back then. And flying vehicles that have fire beneath them and what appears to be a tail gunner and the stars and the moon and"
},
{
"end_time": 5113.78,
"index": 203,
"start_time": 5091.186,
"text": " I mean, someone obviously had a pretty good understanding of the earth being round as celestial bodies a long time ago to make these stones. And it's very interesting. Is that proof positive or evidence of anything? No, it could just be someone's wild imagination. There is lots of that out there, but it could be something else too."
},
{
"end_time": 5142.176,
"index": 204,
"start_time": 5115.316,
"text": " Okay, this question comes from Miles Coller-Reathen. If I'm mispronouncing that, I apologize. It's directed to both of you. Are you aware of attempts to make contact with UAPs? And if so, what were the results? Are they still taking place? I'm not aware of it. I'm not aware of any official programs like that or efforts like that. I have spent a great deal of time studying all of the different"
},
{
"end_time": 5173.063,
"index": 205,
"start_time": 5143.336,
"text": " contact groups around the world to include various mediums and so-called channelers that claim to be in contact with various and sundry alien civilizations that they have all of this deep knowledge about that I can't verify any of it. And when I take each of these"
},
{
"end_time": 5198.507,
"index": 206,
"start_time": 5174.138,
"text": " I would ask you to find contact."
},
{
"end_time": 5227.056,
"index": 207,
"start_time": 5199.48,
"text": " What does that mean, contact? Does it mean sitting down having a beer? Does it mean making yourself known? Does it mean conversation? What does contact mean? People are aware that there were efforts by the US government to collect more information on these things. But what do you mean by contact? Do you mean like close encounters where we sit down and we have coffee together?"
},
{
"end_time": 5254.514,
"index": 208,
"start_time": 5227.722,
"text": " We talk about things or are we talking about contact being just the providing of evidence proof that that they're real and that we want more to collect more information? You know, yes, there were efforts to try to try to collect additional information, maybe create a scenario or the environment where perhaps these things would show up. And in so doing, we could collect information that was at contact. Well,"
},
{
"end_time": 5280.896,
"index": 209,
"start_time": 5254.804,
"text": " Some could argue, yeah, that's a form of contact. You know, it's like, like, like people said, we communicated. Well, that depends. What's your definition of communication? When, when I'm, when I'm waving to you from across the room, I'm communicating. I mean, I'll be communicating to verbally, but I'm communicating to you. When we scramble an F-22 to go intercept a Russian bear off the coast of Alaska, we're not talking to them, but we're communicating. Make no mistake. We're communicating in a tent. So again, when you say contact, um,"
},
{
"end_time": 5309.94,
"index": 210,
"start_time": 5281.578,
"text": " That's a bit broad. I need that more narrowly defined in order to answer that question properly. Sure. I'm sure you've heard of a disk that's been sent off into space and it has two people. I don't recall the name of it. It's on the Voyager Pioneer probes. I can't recall which one. Right. Okay. So that was Earth's attempt at trying to communicate with whoever is a civilization that may not share our language. Has something similar occurred between"
},
{
"end_time": 5339.974,
"index": 211,
"start_time": 5310.282,
"text": " Let me ask you a question, Kurt. Why do we make the assumption that an exterior force is going to make communication with a governmental agency or entity? And again, why not communicate in a fashion"
},
{
"end_time": 5363.78,
"index": 212,
"start_time": 5340.555,
"text": " that was hard to ignore. You know what I mean? But instead these seem to be, pardon me for using the word, but clandestine and piecemeal when it comes to interaction with the public. And if what Lou's saying is that it's possible that we may have created an environment that was conducive to them wanting to appear, for lack of a better word,"
},
{
"end_time": 5394.855,
"index": 213,
"start_time": 5365.162,
"text": " Again, it still speaks of a missing piece here. Let me say this, and I'm not indicating that I want to use deadly force, but in my training, when we learned about deadly force, we learned about the deadly force triangle years ago, and that included opportunity, intent, and capability. Now, we know that these craft have a great deal of capability, and their capability seems to open up a great deal of opportunity for them."
},
{
"end_time": 5424.087,
"index": 214,
"start_time": 5395.725,
"text": " But the question is still the intent. And communication, as we said, I communicate with my dog every day. I think she and I have very different ideas of what we're communicating to each other and what it means. And so communication is a very broad word. Waving at a cow is communicating for me. But the cow may not perceive it that way. It may not even know that it was communicated with. So seriously, finding a common language, finding a baseline for this,"
},
{
"end_time": 5452.056,
"index": 215,
"start_time": 5424.531,
"text": " is, is we have a lot and I'm not downing your questions. They're the same questions I haven't, you know, and I asked them and me and my friends talk about the same stuff around the fire and I'm just being cagey because I'm on a podcast. But the fact is, is we just don't know a lot of this stuff, you know, so I do really try to be careful with with stating my opinion on some of this stuff, because my opinion has changed a lot over the years based on the data, based on my own personal experience and growth. And so it's a"
},
{
"end_time": 5483.131,
"index": 216,
"start_time": 5453.643,
"text": " Are you aware of psychedelics being used as a channel of communication?"
},
{
"end_time": 5512.944,
"index": 217,
"start_time": 5483.541,
"text": " Dennis is doing a lot of great work down south, I believe in Central America, and setting up an institute and a college to study these things, their effects in a pragmatic, scientific and fashion utilizing control groups and modern therapy. I think that's very important because it is the undiscovered country of human consciousness is to go down the rabbit hole of loss of self, frankly."
},
{
"end_time": 5540.469,
"index": 218,
"start_time": 5513.473,
"text": " Now, does that tie directly into what we see in the skies and what we purport to and what we hope might have crashed? Pardon me for hoping a crash on anyone, but hoping that there might be evidence. We all hope that eventually someday we might find that smoking gun we all talk about that gives us clarity. But I still don't know if the spectrum we're looking at, I feel like our needle goes all over the place all the time."
},
{
"end_time": 5562.346,
"index": 219,
"start_time": 5540.623,
"text": " Because we're using a word like phenomena, and I think that's important. I think the facile idea that we have taken the word UFO and replaced it with some new, no, we used a better word. Because most of the stuff that I am encountering, regardless of whether it's unidentified or an object, it's certainly not exhibiting flight characteristics, and that just gets under my skin."
},
{
"end_time": 5591.237,
"index": 220,
"start_time": 5562.654,
"text": " We need folks to get out of that muck, get up a level on some of this stuff. It really opens up new doors of thought. It opens up new possibilities as to what we're working with when you start looking at it differently and not in the science fiction and as you've been told aspect."
},
{
"end_time": 5621.391,
"index": 221,
"start_time": 5593.029,
"text": " I agree. And we need to be more accurate with our terminology, right? This goes back to what Sean was saying in the beginning, as far as our lexicon, you know, please, you know, be accurate when you when you speak, because it you know, what words have meaning, and a lot of people just kind of throw words around. And, you know, they're not really doing their due diligence, understanding, and it confuses things. And, you know, we have to be accurate. That's why science is to where it is today, because it involves accuracy."
},
{
"end_time": 5651.834,
"index": 222,
"start_time": 5622.125,
"text": " math, right? You want to be accurate when you're describing things like this, especially something that we don't know, be accurate in the unknowns. And I think that's, you know, Sean said it perfectly, you know, you have flight as a fundamental, you have four fundamental forces, you have thrust, lift, drag, and weight. And when you understand those, you have flight, you have control surfaces, you have wings and rudders and ailerons and elevators. But we're not seeing any of those associated technologies."
},
{
"end_time": 5681.852,
"index": 223,
"start_time": 5652.108,
"text": " Yeah, I like to say on this podcast, there's this word that people say with denigration, it's a quiddity. Now quiddity means it's a hair splitting distinction, but it also means a peculiar essence, an odd feature in eccentricity."
},
{
"end_time": 5710.213,
"index": 224,
"start_time": 5682.654,
"text": " something that sets it apart. And so I'm a fan of delineation of taking what is like novel things. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So beautiful. This man, some of these questions are so great. This one comes from Chris pass. In the prior toe interview, Lou asked Kurt about making something that would last a million years and Kurt said metamaterials harder than diamond Lou reminded him of natural forces that constantly reshape the earth destroying information. So Lou then mentioned the moon and the lack of"
},
{
"end_time": 5731.852,
"index": 225,
"start_time": 5710.64,
"text": " Well, certainly that was part of NASA's curiosity and same with China now with their little rover. We're always looking for signs of"
},
{
"end_time": 5757.841,
"index": 226,
"start_time": 5732.346,
"text": " of something beyond us. This is why we are exploring the planets in our solar system. This is why we are looking for technosignatures in our galaxy. This is why we send things out like the Voyager and the Pioneer and these space probes out there because we want to answer the fundamental question, are we alone? And certainly it makes sense if you don't have the erosive forces like you have here and the"
},
{
"end_time": 5785.094,
"index": 227,
"start_time": 5758.148,
"text": " the ever-changing environment, whether it's through tectonic movement or through water, wind, rain, all the things that grind mountains down to deserts. Those are very powerful forces. If you wanted to make something last forever, there's a few ways to do it, but you got to think outside the box to do it. Don't think about it from using the..."
},
{
"end_time": 5813.558,
"index": 228,
"start_time": 5785.23,
"text": " If you can paint with any palette then you don't have to be stuck with the palette that's in front of you to paint and nor the canvas quite frankly. So I think certainly we live for archaeological evidence here on our own planet for ancient human presence. I think we're doing that now with NASA. That's what these rovers are for and don't be surprised"
},
{
"end_time": 5841.715,
"index": 229,
"start_time": 5814.036,
"text": " If at some point in the future we substantiate that there was intelligent life perhaps on other planets and moons and whatnot, and it may not just be here. We know that Mars had an atmosphere. We know that it had a geomagnetic field around it protecting its atmosphere at one point. We know that there was water on the atmosphere. Now, does that mean all life is sustained by water? No, it doesn't. Maybe here on this planet, but"
},
{
"end_time": 5870.794,
"index": 230,
"start_time": 5842.346,
"text": " We do know that that amino acids have been carried in from from meteors coming into into our atmosphere and our planet, amino acids being the building blocks for for life. So, you know, I think I think we shouldn't be surprised if at some point we have that confirmation that that a lot of people speculate, you know, maybe there. OK, Sean, do you have anything to add to that? No, I thought that was pretty succinct."
},
{
"end_time": 5897.346,
"index": 231,
"start_time": 5871.886,
"text": " Colonel Korn asks, is there anything about our moon that we should know about that we don't know? Everything we don't know. Exactly. I'm not going to get my hackles up, but I'm going to say this. A lot of these questions, there is something. There's a lot of people here that want that sound like they're trying to prove a line of thought that they're interested in. And I understand that. But a question like,"
},
{
"end_time": 5924.497,
"index": 232,
"start_time": 5898.439,
"text": " What do we need to know about the moon that we don't know? My answer is everything that we don't know. Next question. Exactly. Exactly. Everything that we don't know. Webstar Rises asks, do we have a direct DNA lineage with the others? It's fun to speculate, but I've got zero evidence either way. What we do know is that we have a lot in common with not only a chimpanzee, but a banana."
},
{
"end_time": 5954.326,
"index": 233,
"start_time": 5924.872,
"text": " Adam X asks, in a recent interview, Lou stated that he just finished a trip to Washington and that quote unquote crap is going to hit the fan soon. Can he elaborate on this at all? What does that mean? There's a lot happening. There's a lot happening. The conversation has definitely shifted."
},
{
"end_time": 5976.288,
"index": 234,
"start_time": 5955.811,
"text": " and more information is becoming available almost on a regular basis. I'm not prepared to go into any type of specifics right now. It will become evident. If there's one thing that's hopefully been clear to people every time I say the conversation is going to shift,"
},
{
"end_time": 6003.114,
"index": 235,
"start_time": 5976.715,
"text": " and new stuff comes out, it does. I don't say that because the last thing I want to do is over promise and under deliver. I'd rather under promise and over deliver. But the conversation is occurring. And that's about all I can say right now for that because it would require other people to step in and comment that I'm not in a privileged situation where I can share their"
},
{
"end_time": 6027.739,
"index": 236,
"start_time": 6003.49,
"text": " their comments or opinions on it. Sean, what do you think? I got to be careful, I say. No, Lou and I go on podcasts because we want to communicate. We want to be involved in a conversation. But especially in Lou's instance, we need people to understand that when we have something to say, that's when we're going to have something to say. We're not in the podcast business."
},
{
"end_time": 6055.776,
"index": 237,
"start_time": 6028.08,
"text": " We're not professional interviewers, and frankly, every time we do podcasts, it takes us away from the work that makes the progress. A lot of people have wanted us, they say, we want you guys to get more involved. We need answers. Well, we don't have the answers that you desire. We have information that we have accrued. We have relationships we have accrued. We have things we're trying to change. We have a world we're trying to change. But at this point, it's becoming less and less"
},
{
"end_time": 6080.486,
"index": 238,
"start_time": 6056.186,
"text": " valuable for us to spend our time doing these things when there's so much more that we can be doing on in what people call behind the scenes outside of ufology away from from the public eye of this and i just want to say that people have to ask themselves what they want do they want to be entertained or do they want change it's it is truly that simple because we don't have and and this is not a"
},
{
"end_time": 6107.295,
"index": 239,
"start_time": 6080.896,
"text": " This is not me striking out, but we don't have time to entertain folks. We don't have time. A lot of these questions, I understand they're interesting questions. They're questions I ask myself. But for the time we have today, they're not, and for the work that we work on, they're not valuable. They're not additive at the moment to the work that we're doing. They end up muddying the water a great deal because what we're dipping into is a lot of questions about"
},
{
"end_time": 6134.377,
"index": 240,
"start_time": 6108.012,
"text": " various books and beliefs and ideas in ufology, not what's on the record as evidentiary value. And I really want to stop asking or answering questions about what do you think of so-and-so's book where he had an idea? I don't think much of it. It's his idea. And I could say that for a hundred other folks, because Lou and I can't afford"
},
{
"end_time": 6161.715,
"index": 241,
"start_time": 6134.889,
"text": " to sit around the campfire and have a just speculative conversation, because frankly, people assign meaning to our opinions. That's I'm tired of that. And so I want to see a place where we can have a conversation that is additive. I know people want to know what we think. It's not important what Sean Cahill thinks. OK, it's not important what my opinions are, because I think my opinions are garbage. It's important what your opinions are at home."
},
{
"end_time": 6190.162,
"index": 242,
"start_time": 6162.125,
"text": " I try to distance myself from that, Kurt, as much as possible. There's so much speculation in this field and everybody pushes it off as fact. It's one of the reasons why I just don't engage. I'm getting to the point, I'll tell you right now, I'm going to start doing a lot less. You're going to notice a huge, I'm going to do a few more to finish up my obligations, but I'm not doing these much longer. This is it. Reason is because"
},
{
"end_time": 6206.186,
"index": 243,
"start_time": 6190.435,
"text": " I'm not sure I'm being very helpful at this point. I'm helpful behind the scenes, but being like this in public, all it does is serve to divide people when really my intent was to unite people, bring them together. But the, I don't have time to focus"
},
{
"end_time": 6233.865,
"index": 244,
"start_time": 6206.578,
"text": " the he said, she said bullshit. I don't care about it. Never have. I never will. And you want more of the same than go back to the last 70 years of bullshit because that's what people think you are. They think you're full of shit because you talk about wacky stuff. You've got no evidence. And because he said he wrote a book on something, what does that mean? It means nothing. You got to show evidence. Where are the bona fides? Where are the videos? Where's the reports? Where's the discussions to Congress and the classified briefings?"
},
{
"end_time": 6264.224,
"index": 245,
"start_time": 6234.377,
"text": " They're nowhere because I haven't seen them on the hill when I'm there. I haven't seen them in D.C. when I'm going by the Pentagon or anywhere else. They're not those meetings. So for me to come out and when I, you know, historically, I've always tried to share information and be as transparent as possible. But I think we're reaching a point now where I think people have what they need. I don't think they need Lou Elizondo coming in and feeding them information anymore. You know, and if and if they want to go back to the way you followed, you wasn't being my guest. I'm not stopping you. I don't give a shit."
},
{
"end_time": 6270.384,
"index": 246,
"start_time": 6264.462,
"text": " That's on you, but you're not going to stop me from doing my pursuits because I'm taking this very seriously."
},
{
"end_time": 6297.739,
"index": 247,
"start_time": 6271.084,
"text": " When I first came into this, people told me, oh, ufology eats its own. I'm like, what the hell is ufology? Let me know what that is. I'm not a ufologist. I never have been, I never will be. So stop wrapping me into that. I am not into a ufology. I'm not. In fact, it was up to me. I'd blow it up into a million pieces, as I said before, and hopefully what coalesced would be something far more scientific, far more objective. I don't know, man. I want us to build, to be additive. And people keep calling me and going,"
},
{
"end_time": 6328.285,
"index": 248,
"start_time": 6298.302,
"text": " Can you prove this? Can you prove that? Can you prove this? And it's like, we already did. We already did. Every week, it's the same crap. And so I want to know why that's the thing that ufology itself is so interested in. Why do they want to know what's in my garbage? Why do I have to make my fence taller and putting cameras in my house? Why am I getting people knocking on my door thinking I have secrets? I don't have their secrets, man. And that's something I don't think people understand."
},
{
"end_time": 6355.06,
"index": 249,
"start_time": 6328.933,
"text": " This isn't a movie. We may be seen as larger than life by other people, but I'm this size. I get up in the morning, I do all the same things we all do. I feel like crap and I should exercise more and eat better and I don't. I'm a real person. I'm not a figure. That's something the public does themselves. I'm not even a subject matter expert. I'll go out on a limb and say that myself."
},
{
"end_time": 6382.927,
"index": 250,
"start_time": 6355.435,
"text": " because we don't have an established curriculum in this. We choose our subject matter experts by how they perform. And so far, ufology has chosen subject matter experts that make them feel good, that tell them the story that fits their memory, their experience, their favorite flavor, their favorite story. And all of the research that I've done, I can't find one person out there that I would go, let's get them on board. They could help us. They're so, because everybody I talk to goes,"
},
{
"end_time": 6412.073,
"index": 251,
"start_time": 6383.558,
"text": " It's the Zetas, right? I'm like, man, no, there's, I don't know. I don't know what a Zeta is. I got a book at home with 175 different alien species listed out in it. And it's sponsored by MUFON. And it's the most ridiculous bunch of science fiction I've ever seen in my life. And I'm like, why did MUFON put their name on this? Those are, I know MUFON people as individuals, caring, pragmatic, dedicated."
},
{
"end_time": 6441.442,
"index": 252,
"start_time": 6412.824,
"text": " investigators, some of them are amateurs, some of them are professionals, again, like us, own money, own time, own effort. Why would they expose themselves to Zeb's cornucopia of alien jackasses? I don't get it. How do we break off from the nonsense? Because I can't do it anymore. I know Lou can't do it anymore. I would throw that question back to you and your audience."
},
{
"end_time": 6456.937,
"index": 253,
"start_time": 6442.466,
"text": " How do we change this? Let me see if I understand this because I don't want there to be a misunderstanding by the people who are watching. You're not upset at the people who are asking questions, nor are you upset at me, nor are you. No, we're not even upset."
},
{
"end_time": 6486.561,
"index": 254,
"start_time": 6457.244,
"text": " Yeah, about that the types of questions indicate that the UFO community at large is either misguided or misled and their opportunity costs as well. So they could be focusing on something that you feel like is more productive. Let me if I can reiterate, this is not the frustration by Sean and I are is definitely not directed towards you or anybody in your audience or the person asking the question. They're legitimate. And they're good questions. What we are frustrated with is is the"
},
{
"end_time": 6516.869,
"index": 255,
"start_time": 6487.108,
"text": " habitual tendency to go back and discuss things that are not only not relevant, but have been implanted as falsehoods to begin with by people in the past. And these things continue to resurface. Well, okay, that's fine, Lou. We're talking about potentially another incident from an F-35. But what about the reptilians? What does it have to do with reptilians? Guys,"
},
{
"end_time": 6546.118,
"index": 256,
"start_time": 6517.995,
"text": " We're not talking about reptilians, man. I mean, stop, please. Try your best to remove whatever you may have learned in the past about this and say, well, I've been researching this for 30 years. You know what? You've been researching fiction. So a lot of this stuff has been fictionalized. You're not an expert in reading someone else's book. That doesn't make you an expert. I'm sorry. And so you've got to learn to approach this a little bit more objectively."
},
{
"end_time": 6565.316,
"index": 257,
"start_time": 6546.459,
"text": " And this is why we are loathsome to offer our position and perspective. Because at the end of the day, I don't want to be guilty of the same thing. It doesn't matter what Lou Elizondo thinks. It doesn't matter what Sean thinks. It matters what you think. Here's the data. Here's the facts. You figure it out for yourself. What this means to you, what to your religion, your culture, your philosophy, your psychology, sociology, and everything else in between."
},
{
"end_time": 6592.568,
"index": 258,
"start_time": 6565.93,
"text": " How you identify with this information is up to you. It's not my job to tell you what to think about. My job is simply to provide you the information and the evidence and you figure it out for yourself and your family and your friends and however else you want to do it. But don't superimpose that on me. Please don't do that. I don't do that on you. Please don't do that to me because it's not fair and I think it's a distraction to the bigger conversation we're having. I cannot"
},
{
"end_time": 6621.561,
"index": 259,
"start_time": 6593.046,
"text": " Every time I look at social media, I am blown away at how people behave and treat each other and the self-delusion. I mean, I have people that are making up entire conversations they've had with me that I've never spoken to the person in my life and they're going around and it's not healthy. And then those require numerous tweets and backpedaling and it seems like that's the desire."
},
{
"end_time": 6646.834,
"index": 260,
"start_time": 6622.159,
"text": " certain folks is to make sure just like a lot of folks would observe in our own society that if you create enough chaos it creates a system that you can exploit and that will be self perpetuating and at this point and curtain i'm not i'm not accusing you of this i'm not accusing your audience of it i'm just i'm just taking a chance at this point to say the bathroom real quick by the way go ahead i'm not talking out but i got i can't use the bathroom this is this has been really tough for us because"
},
{
"end_time": 6672.705,
"index": 261,
"start_time": 6648.046,
"text": " It's a tough decision to decide whether or not to participate at the level that folks want, because we want to keep talking to everybody. You know what I mean? But I'm not getting any work done when I do this. So I'm not attacking you guys, your audience. I didn't feel attacked. I have a feeling some people would think you were attacking, so I wanted to clear the air."
},
{
"end_time": 6692.09,
"index": 262,
"start_time": 6673.336,
"text": " A lot of people are triggered very easily. A lot of people get very offended when they don't hear what they want. I'll come out and say that. People in our community, our larger community, have some pretty skewed expectations. They have an immense lack of... Those who didn't serve in the military have no clue what it's like. Those who haven't worked in government service have no clue what it's like."
},
{
"end_time": 6721.118,
"index": 263,
"start_time": 6692.807,
"text": " I had somebody recently ask me, do you have any, any pay stubs that say you did the following? I'm like, man, my pay stubs say USM for the last 20 years. I was in the United States Navy. They never said chief petty officer or interrogator or, or, or, you know, police officer. And we spend a lot of time answering dumb questions like that. People don't even know what they're talking about. I'm going to put it just like that. I'm not talking about your audience. I'm just taking a chance to say why we're frustrated with some stuff."
},
{
"end_time": 6749.275,
"index": 264,
"start_time": 6721.561,
"text": " Because I would love. I mean, we talked about having a couple of beers and having a groovy, you know, kind of esoteric conversation. But I got to say that the way that some of these have been formed is I don't believe in gotcha questions. There aren't gotcha questions. There's gotcha people. There's people that get got and don't take the time to answer a question utilizing their acumen. Or there's people that, you know, that take their time through it. But are they useful? And we're just encountering so much non additive"
},
{
"end_time": 6779.855,
"index": 265,
"start_time": 6750.333,
"text": " Um, interaction at this point, because we're saturated, saturated with interviewers, saturated with, you know, with questions and stuff. And so for me, that I just want to get across to people that we're, we're willing to work as hard as possible, but it's at some point we have to decide whether our work, the work that we're doing is, is, um, is additive. That's the word that I use most often. So it could, I'll tell you too, if I, if I can,"
},
{
"end_time": 6810.333,
"index": 266,
"start_time": 6780.469,
"text": " Be very mindful that even yourself, we're doing this show right now, we're talking to you and your audience. There are people that are trying to sabotage or hijack this conversation. Use this conversation we're having with you to push their own agenda and their own narrative. Right now, you're seeing it live on your chat. People that have ulterior motives and agendas,"
},
{
"end_time": 6830.981,
"index": 267,
"start_time": 6810.606,
"text": " and are looking to construe and misconstrue information. And the very thing that we are against, you're witnessing it right now. It's happening right now as you and I are having this conversation. And it's happening because people are taking advantage of this to push a narrative or an agenda."
},
{
"end_time": 6857.534,
"index": 268,
"start_time": 6831.544,
"text": " And I think that's disappointing. I think it's exactly what Sean and I and others are opposed to who take this topic very seriously. We're not trying to create a Jerry Springer environment. And sadly, as it is, you're witnessing the very thing that we're against happening right now, right now on your chat room as we speak. And this goes exactly to the point I'm trying to make. People aren't interested in"
},
{
"end_time": 6878.797,
"index": 269,
"start_time": 6858.012,
"text": " in a discussion. They're interested in drama. They're interested in the soap opera. And I don't want to be involved in that. You want to do that, beat that. But I've got more important shit to do than to be part of that. That he said, she said crap. That's not what I'm interested in. And if that's what other people are interested in, spend your time doing that. But"
},
{
"end_time": 6906.203,
"index": 270,
"start_time": 6879.258,
"text": " Please don't waste my time because I'm not into that. I've got far more important priorities on my plate than to jump into a virtual mosh pit with people who aren't interested in really doing anything, accomplishing anything. All they want to do is sling mud. That's certainly their right and privilege if they want to do that, but don't involve me. I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in real"
},
{
"end_time": 6927.995,
"index": 271,
"start_time": 6906.732,
"text": " discussion, elevated conversation, treating people with dignity and respect, not the dog pile that we're seeing. Unfortunately, this topic seems to bring out the best and in some cases, the worst of individuals. We beat that horse to death. I mean, I know that I'm the one that led it into the stable."
},
{
"end_time": 6949.292,
"index": 272,
"start_time": 6928.643,
"text": " What is the environment that they refer to when they're saying that they created it to attract the phenomenon? Remember earlier when we were talking about communicating? That's a great question."
},
{
"end_time": 6978.285,
"index": 273,
"start_time": 6950.52,
"text": " You know, I'll answer this generally. I think a lot of people already kind of know what I'm alluding to, but we've known that there have been interesting correlations between nuclear technology capabilities, whatnot, and UAP activity. So clearly, if you can create an environment where you can potentially attract these things, then you can probably collect more data on these things. And so therein lies"
},
{
"end_time": 7006.357,
"index": 274,
"start_time": 6978.814,
"text": " part of the key if you can create a situation where maybe these things come because they're interested in what you have, then you can you can collect information. That's about about as much as I'm prepared to say right now. But I think a lot of people kind of know historically, if you look at Robert Hastings book, the nukes and UFOs, you know, it's there's a lot of compelling data in there. Sean, you have anything to add to that?"
},
{
"end_time": 7033.592,
"index": 275,
"start_time": 7007.688,
"text": " Nick D says, over the time frame that you researched and investigated UAPs, did you see the UAPs improve, like faster speeds, more daring maneuvers, capabilities over time? In other words, is there evidence that their technology has advanced?"
},
{
"end_time": 7067.005,
"index": 276,
"start_time": 7038.865,
"text": " It's one of those, it assumes that I have observed, it assumes a lot, but nope, not in my lifetime. I can't even say what their technology truly does. So it's a hard question to answer. Yeah, same to me, nor with me. I haven't seen any indicators that their technology has changed or necessarily improved. A lot of the observations we see now are the same ones that were made in the, quite frankly, in the 60s and even the 50s."
},
{
"end_time": 7097.585,
"index": 277,
"start_time": 7070.128,
"text": " Blaine Totarian asks, in the GQ interview, Lou, you mentioned that a pilot experienced 30 minutes go by on his watch, but only consumed five minutes of fuel in his jet. Did you happen to find any corroborating evidence in the form of fuel log discrepancies or chronographic anomalies on the jet? Any tips for forming a FOIA request on this? Yeah, there's actually been several experiences like that reported by eyewitnesses, military sources."
},
{
"end_time": 7103.302,
"index": 278,
"start_time": 7098.183,
"text": " There's one very compelling, I won't say the person's name, but he was on a mountain top."
},
{
"end_time": 7131.8,
"index": 279,
"start_time": 7103.865,
"text": " and felt like just a few minutes went by and five hours had gone by. This is the whole missing time. The observation that some people report to have that what appeared to be just a few minutes in reality was much, much longer. And there's also a lot of reporting from foreign pilots as well and foreign military personnel. So this isn't just a US thing. There's other individuals who have experienced this as well."
},
{
"end_time": 7159.411,
"index": 280,
"start_time": 7132.295,
"text": " The problem is very hard to reconcile because at some point, human observation is subjective. I think we have to be careful. I think it's a data point, but as Sean likes to say all the time, at the end of the day, it's just a data point. It's in the collection of many, many data points that allows us to create a much more comprehensive picture."
},
{
"end_time": 7183.797,
"index": 281,
"start_time": 7159.821,
"text": " So I'm always careful not to just use a single data point. And that's why from the perspective of ATIP, the observables were so important because you had five distinct, actually six distinct observables that when put together painted a very compelling picture. You know, one could say, well, we have hypersonic vehicles or we have vehicles that can do instantaneous acceleration or low observability, but we don't have one that can do all five."
},
{
"end_time": 7199.906,
"index": 282,
"start_time": 7184.087,
"text": " And so that's when it becomes very compelling. And the same thing with the biological effects. In this case, if you have missing time, then that is potentially a biological or a psychological effect. And that's something that you now see in the law. We have to report on biological effects."
},
{
"end_time": 7226.596,
"index": 283,
"start_time": 7200.606,
"text": " Recently, this is a question that I have. George Knapp revealed that Area 51 has a multitude of names like Paradise Ranch and The Ranch and Red Square. I wrote a couple of them else down. St. Elsewhere, Home Plate, Homey Airport, the site. So have you heard of these and can this information be used for a FOIA request? Kurt, I lost you entirely here. For some reason, my headphone went out for a second. Can you repeat that again? Worst comes to worst happens again. I'll switch to these ugly things."
},
{
"end_time": 7249.616,
"index": 284,
"start_time": 7227.5,
"text": " George Knapp revealed that Area 51 has many names. Paradise Ranch, The Ranch, Red Square, Home Plate, etc. Have you heard of these? I assume that these were governmental names. So I'm curious if this information, if it can be used for a FOIA request. And also, why do you think it has so many names? Doesn't mean that there are multiple government organizations operating there."
},
{
"end_time": 7261.271,
"index": 285,
"start_time": 7250.333,
"text": " I think all information can be used for FOIA. We have names for New York, we call it the big city, we call it the big apple, we call it all sorts of things, right?"
},
{
"end_time": 7286.715,
"index": 286,
"start_time": 7261.578,
"text": " Organizations over time give names, some of it's for real reasons like OPSEC, we call operational security. If you want to keep saying people that were in the CIA, I can say this, but everybody will say, oh, he went to the farm. The farm is, it's not really the name of it, but that's what you call it. Same thing with Area 51 or Grim Lake or whatever non-dejour you want to use."
},
{
"end_time": 7302.5,
"index": 287,
"start_time": 7287.21,
"text": " There's lots of reasons why people do that. Some of it again is for true operational reasons because you don't want to use something's real name and you want to use it in conversation and somebody who's also read on to something you can you, let's say, Kurt you and Sean and I were part of a program."
},
{
"end_time": 7319.77,
"index": 288,
"start_time": 7302.5,
"text": " And you can't ever say the program's name. So you call it something else, you know, hey, we got to go talk about the elephant tomorrow. And elephant being, you know, a code word for the program. Right. And so those are the type of things that are quite common, especially in the military, when you're talking about military facilities and organizations."
},
{
"end_time": 7348.507,
"index": 289,
"start_time": 7320.128,
"text": " It's super, super common. For example, when I was in the army in South Korea, you have the second ID, the second infantry division up on the DMZ, but we called it the Deuce. Was it that its official name? No, but everybody referred to it as the Deuce. It's quite common. Sean, you got any? I'd say boil what you like and see what you get back. I mean,"
},
{
"end_time": 7376.886,
"index": 290,
"start_time": 7348.729,
"text": " I would ask them if they have any interest in what area 1 through 57 are called as well, because all of those test ranges exist too. I mean, I don't know what the exact number is, but area 51 was not picked out of nowhere. It's a grid marker. And is it a test facility? It would seem that that's been acknowledged during Bill Clinton's administration. Aerial photos came out for the first time, and that's how we got into the idea that area 51 was even a real place."
},
{
"end_time": 7404.275,
"index": 291,
"start_time": 7377.517,
"text": " and that it was a test range. But past that, I can't, I don't know. I appreciate George's work. Don't get me wrong. I would never in a million years down anything. George is incredible. He is an edifice to this subject. He is one of the most valuable intellects and archives and has some of the best understanding of anyone around him. So I think that if George Knapp found a bunch of names that were associated with the Nevada test site,"
},
{
"end_time": 7432.722,
"index": 292,
"start_time": 7404.991,
"text": " If you are into FOIA, I think that's a good person to look to to find keywords. But beyond that, I don't know what Area 51 does beyond test aircraft for Nellis Air Force Base. And yes, I know that there are certain terminals and airlines and all these other things that like to go back and forth. But again, stories. I don't have proof. If I had proof, I'd call you up and we'd have a really cool show if I was like, look, bro, I got proof."
},
{
"end_time": 7459.155,
"index": 293,
"start_time": 7433.387,
"text": " This question comes from Cyprian Siginic. Among all the UAP incidents you've investigated, which one stands out to you? For me, it's the 2004 Nimitz tic-tac incident because we have the most comprehensive multispectral data on it. Do we have access to all of that?"
},
{
"end_time": 7488.08,
"index": 294,
"start_time": 7459.991,
"text": " But we at least have the rational stories, or excuse me, anecdotes, and a certain paper trail to follow that says that those tapes were taken. And so the first thing that says to me is in 2004, there was a program running that was ready to respond to incidences like this, at least to debrief and retrieve ELINT data. But that's all I know. But to me, that's the most interesting because we can nail down the most"
},
{
"end_time": 7510.794,
"index": 295,
"start_time": 7488.558,
"text": " the most comprehensive pieces of an investigation that something worthwhile occurred, and that there's more information out there that we could get on it, we could clarify if we had that information. We would know a lot more. I say multi-spectral, I want to be careful. When I say that, I'm saying multi-point."
},
{
"end_time": 7536.578,
"index": 296,
"start_time": 7511.357,
"text": " So to me, that's the most interesting one. Granted, I was there. I don't think my eyewitness account is the most interesting thing of it. I think it's way towards the bottom of the list. It's completely unprovable. But that's my one. I'd be interested to hear what that is to say. I said before, it's like choosing my favorite kid, right? I love them all. I find something interesting in every single of the"
},
{
"end_time": 7564.48,
"index": 297,
"start_time": 7536.937,
"text": " incidents that I've been privy to. Some are very, very compelling. Some are a bit more anecdotal. As I've said before, I can't provide more than other than saying there's a 23-minute video that's really, really, really compelling. Those are the ones that leave you really scratching your head saying, what the hell did I just see? My hope is that some of these incidents become more and more"
},
{
"end_time": 7593.712,
"index": 298,
"start_time": 7565.418,
"text": " prevalent, and people in office, particularly Congress, are successful in getting some of this stuff declassified, that some of the more compelling videos and incidents will become more public knowledge. And then you can have that conversation, right? Then I can ask you the same question. Which one is your most compelling incident? Right now, there's so many of them, and some of them are just truly baffling."
},
{
"end_time": 7616.493,
"index": 299,
"start_time": 7595.316,
"text": " Unfortunately, most of it I really can't talk about yet in the public sphere, which for me is very frustrating. Sure. Which one stands out that you can talk about? Would it be the Nimitz as well? Well, the Nimitz was certainly one of the most comprehensive investigations. That thing went on for a while. There were several investigations. There's a lot of documentation reporting on it. A lot of it was made public."
},
{
"end_time": 7640.145,
"index": 300,
"start_time": 7616.988,
"text": " I think it's certainly one of the gold standards for the US government as far as investigations. But there's a lot more. Chris will tell you the story about him seeing an email from somebody, this very senior ranking person in the Navy, basically saying, I got these things all over my ship. What do you want me to do?"
},
{
"end_time": 7667.637,
"index": 301,
"start_time": 7640.555,
"text": " I can't keep people below deck forever. People are going to see these things. What do you want me to do about this? Because it's very prevalent, and this won't be able to be kept secret for very long. So that's an example of just sheer frustration. In some cases, you're like, we've got to get a handle on this. We really do. We've got to figure this out."
},
{
"end_time": 7679.838,
"index": 302,
"start_time": 7669.889,
"text": " This is about the ocean Casey Price wants to know regarding USO, so Unidentified Submerged Objects. Have you seen underwater photographs or video that support that they exist?"
},
{
"end_time": 7708.029,
"index": 303,
"start_time": 7681.203,
"text": " Well, first of all, photographic evidence underwaters is a much different story than photographic evidence in the sky. Okay. First of all, water is opaque. Water is very dense. Light doesn't travel very well. In fact, in a very crystal crystal, I'm an avid scuba diver on a crystal clear day and some of the best Caribbean waters in the world, your visibility is maybe 120 feet if you're lucky. And that's not really that far. If you think about it, you know, it is when you're diving, but but"
},
{
"end_time": 7716.357,
"index": 304,
"start_time": 7708.609,
"text": " It's not really that far. So we have to rely on other technical means to, if you will, see virtually underwater. We use things like sonar."
},
{
"end_time": 7740.555,
"index": 305,
"start_time": 7716.698,
"text": " We use very much like we talked about earlier, the same principles that dolphins use to echolocate. We do that as well using submarines and ships and we can see below the water virtually. We're not actually seeing, but we are creating an image, a virtual image that allows us to see the bottom of the ocean and what's in between, whether it's through side scanning, sonar or other means. The problem is that"
},
{
"end_time": 7767.022,
"index": 306,
"start_time": 7741.152,
"text": " Sound also travels only at a certain speed underwater. Sonar can only pick up and be used to pick up objects that are going at least as fast or slower than the sonar signals. Otherwise it outruns it and you never catch up. So there's limitations. And that's why you have the quote unquote silent service of submarines, why they're so stealthy, because"
},
{
"end_time": 7796.715,
"index": 307,
"start_time": 7767.483,
"text": " Here you have basically something the size of a skyscraper underwater that no one ever sees because it's hard to see underwater. Now, does that mean we have technical data beyond just images, for example, what you might see underwater? Yeah, there seems to be some pretty compelling information down there to suggest that UAP may also be related to USOs and that the two may in fact be very, very much related."
},
{
"end_time": 7825.35,
"index": 308,
"start_time": 7797.176,
"text": " and that objects that are flying in and around our skies who are flying, that's not really the right term, but in and around our atmosphere may also have the ability to perform similarly underwater. And this is where the transmedium travel piece comes into as far as the five observables. Things that have the ability to fly with the same performance characteristics in our atmosphere as they can underwater and possibly even in space. We do have technologies that are transmedium."
},
{
"end_time": 7846.63,
"index": 309,
"start_time": 7825.776,
"text": " For example, a seaplane can fly and it can also float on the water, but let's face it, a seaplane isn't really a good aircraft or a really good boat. It's a compromise because in order to operate in more domains or more environments, you have to accommodate more things, more considerations, and there's always sacrifices, performance sacrifices associated with that."
},
{
"end_time": 7872.824,
"index": 310,
"start_time": 7846.937,
"text": " And that's why you would never expect a seaplane to fly like an F-22 or operate like a submarine because it just can't, it's just too much. And yet that's precisely what we're seeing here in some cases with these UAP. In the Navy, we have a term called scuttlebutt and it's something that in general, the leadership tries to cut down on scuttlebutt, but it's rumored."
},
{
"end_time": 7897.756,
"index": 311,
"start_time": 7873.2,
"text": " And so what I'm about to give you a scuttlebutt because I won't give you names and I'm not going to help folks and I won't even say what platforms I talked to folks from because you could easily trace folks. Not you. I'm not saying you would either. I'm just not going to. Yeah. But I've talked to my numerous senior enlist leaders, sonar technicians, and it's practically, you know, they'll look left, they'll look right and they'll be like, that's an open secret."
},
{
"end_time": 7916.476,
"index": 312,
"start_time": 7898.439,
"text": " We all know there are things that we're picking up on sonar, just like your radar techs are like, yeah, we've all seen UFOs, you don't talk about, you just keep, you know, you talk about the aircraft and your pattern, make sure there's no safety violations and everybody laughs it off. Some people don't even make log entries."
},
{
"end_time": 7944.616,
"index": 313,
"start_time": 7916.869,
"text": " The sonar techs are going through the same thing. So I'll throw that, it's scuttlebutt. I can't verify it. I'm not going to haul any of them up here on the show for you. And they already told me they don't want to get involved. They got their own jobs. They're not willing to risk any of it for this stuff. But the word on the street is it's an open secret. And what a couple of the guys have told me is we're told to log it and dog it. What that means is in some cases in the old days, I mean, you put it in the log and then you lined it out. So it was no longer an official entry."
},
{
"end_time": 7966.51,
"index": 314,
"start_time": 7945.06,
"text": " In this case, it is morphed into don't even write it down, because they're not going to do anything about it. Now, as I said, that's scuttlebutt. That's rumor. But I've collected that from numerous disparate sources. That's very accurate, what Sean is telling you."
},
{
"end_time": 7995.35,
"index": 315,
"start_time": 7966.869,
"text": " I can say there was, cause there was an article on it, um, about the Navy's, what they call that people are familiar with, with the, with the fast Walker program, but I'm not sure people are familiar so much with the fast mover program. And that was an article. If anybody cares to look it up, you can look it up. Um, you know, it's, it's about, about the Navy's, uh, um, collection of data regarding, you know, incidentally of, of, of USOs. And I'll include a link to that in the description."
},
{
"end_time": 8024.957,
"index": 316,
"start_time": 7995.811,
"text": " So for those who are watching or listening, you can check out the description for that. So Brian asks, how important is sound to the advanced physics theories about the UAPs? Now, this is interesting because usually we hear about gravity, light, and so on. Have you heard anything about sound being essential rather than simply an effect? I'll jump on that. One of my colleagues, Chris Mellon, is working very hard right now trying to acquire data from infrasonics."
},
{
"end_time": 8050.316,
"index": 317,
"start_time": 8025.469,
"text": " Things entering the Earth's atmosphere give off an acoustic signature, whether it's an asteroid or meteor or ballistic missile per se. Everything has signatures, an aircraft. You can sit in your backyard looking at an airplane going over and you can hear the jet engine. There are acoustic signatures associated with these things and infrasonics is part of that. And as Chris suggested in his most recent article that"
},
{
"end_time": 8079.787,
"index": 318,
"start_time": 8051.152,
"text": " there is data available potentially that could help us better understand the nature of UAPs if we had the ability to access that data and if we knew what we were looking for. So yeah, it's a great question and it's something that is being looked into. Speaking of accessible data, this question comes from Rebecca Schwart. Thank you to all three of you for your time. Question, are you aware of any civilian-based data collection slash analysis efforts worth looking into further?"
},
{
"end_time": 8109.582,
"index": 319,
"start_time": 8080.282,
"text": " What civilian accessible data would you advise collecting? At the moment, I would first point to Dr. Abby Lowe, his efforts being done at the Galileo project. Beyond that, I'm not prepared to say any names out there. I do have some colleagues that we've worked with that we've helped advise on a couple of projects that are interested in data collection, collating that data and"
},
{
"end_time": 8137.039,
"index": 320,
"start_time": 8109.991,
"text": " providing it as needed. I don't think we could have enough data collection. While you'll hear me talk about too many podcasts, we need more data collection companies. We need more people that are going to attack the electromagnetic spectrum from every possible vantage point that they can and then think of other means to sample our reality for replicatable or at least recordable data."
},
{
"end_time": 8156.067,
"index": 321,
"start_time": 8137.892,
"text": " So the folks, I don't push other people's businesses. I don't do that. But there are people working very hard that have come very far, that have made a lot of relationships and have built an infrastructure in the last couple of years because they were paying attention. And I really look forward to seeing what they have to offer soon."
},
{
"end_time": 8184.428,
"index": 322,
"start_time": 8156.425,
"text": " There's a question here from Joe Murgia, and he has a podcast called UFO Joe, which I'll link in the description. Have you come across any information that you deem credible that Holloman was a real event? Now, the claims for those who are unfamiliar is that a craft of unknown origin landed at Holloman AF base in 1964, humanoid looking beings got out and were whisked away off to a meeting with the military brass at the base then left. So what's your opinion on the aspects of these claims? I've read the same stories everyone else has read in UFOology."
},
{
"end_time": 8212.568,
"index": 323,
"start_time": 8185.913,
"text": " I'll tell you that the problem is we don't know what is based in a real event and then what has been added to a story. Usually a lot of stories are based in some fact. The question is how much fact? Did something happen at Holloman Air Force Base? And if so, what? And did all these other things that happened later"
},
{
"end_time": 8238.353,
"index": 324,
"start_time": 8213.183,
"text": " You know, is it just a story that grew and grew and grew and grew and snowballed into what we know what we what we hear now? Or was it all based in in truth or partial truth? And so, you know, that's that's something that is trying to be determined that, you know, the problems with these cold cases is that the longer the time goes on, the harder it gets. This is, you know, 50 years ago. And most of the people who if any would be involved in that may be dead by now."
},
{
"end_time": 8267.176,
"index": 325,
"start_time": 8239.019,
"text": " So it's hard and so that's why in ATIP we really were focusing on the here and now if you will on incidents involving military equities now or in the present because going back to these you almost don't know where to start because it's kind of gone now into the world of mythology where people say certain things but I heard it through this person who heard it through that person who was someone who was stationed there who saw the video who saw that"
},
{
"end_time": 8297.278,
"index": 326,
"start_time": 8268.541,
"text": " It's hard. And so I'm not going to comment on that simply because I wasn't there and I don't know. But I will say that it is certainly interesting. And, you know, obviously, we keep our feelers out for anybody who wants to come forward who may have additional information regarding that event, if they want to share, we'd love to hear it. Okay, this question is from Andy from that UFO podcast, thanks to the three of you. And what more needs to be done to encourage those in the mainstream to get involved with data collection flow. So we'll start with Sean."
},
{
"end_time": 8317.756,
"index": 327,
"start_time": 8298.49,
"text": " Hi, I'm here to pick up my son Milo. There's no Milo here. Who picked up my son from his school? I'm gonna need the name of everyone that could have a connection. You don't understand. It was just the five of us."
},
{
"end_time": 8344.377,
"index": 328,
"start_time": 8318.336,
"text": " So this was all planned? What are you gonna do? I will do whatever it takes to get my son back. I honestly didn't see this coming. These nice people killing each other. All Her Fault, a new series streaming now only on Peacock. It's cutting the nonsense we've been frankly complaining and borderline ranting about on this podcast. Cutting it out. Not entertaining it anymore. Nadi, frankly, I don't care. Go start your own show."
},
{
"end_time": 8371.749,
"index": 329,
"start_time": 8344.872,
"text": " You know what I mean? You want to find out all the secrets of the various universe? Go for it. We want to collect data. And so we talk to people. As I often say, we say this is real. Here are some excellent data points to look at. What are your thoughts? Do you see merit here? They say, yes, I see merit. Would you like to help us collect more data and try to understand this? I mean, I'm presenting this in a very vague fashion, but it's that simple. Hey, can I have your attention?"
},
{
"end_time": 8401.715,
"index": 330,
"start_time": 8372.637,
"text": " This is real. Would you like to get involved? Yes. You know, yes or no. Some people have said no. They said, you know what, we've already, we're already in a good place. We have good contracts here. We're in a place like this. We don't want to mess with our, you know, we don't want to spook our clientele or our investors or whatever it is. And that's understandable. But some people see this for what it is that for some, something's different. I don't, I don't, I've never liked the question. Why now? I don't know. Now I only have now, as I said earlier in our conversation,"
},
{
"end_time": 8427.415,
"index": 331,
"start_time": 8402.398,
"text": " I want to be accurate as possible. Can you repeat the question, please? You want to know what people could do to encourage data collection in the private sector at a higher level."
},
{
"end_time": 8455.52,
"index": 332,
"start_time": 8431.118,
"text": " I mean, it's a tough question because I mean, I would say anything people can do is helpful. But then again, that's not entirely true every time because not everything is helpful. You know, I think being aware of the conversation, you know, everybody now has one of these devices in their hands, right? So you're a virtual collection platform taking videos, pictures and whatnot."
},
{
"end_time": 8475.35,
"index": 333,
"start_time": 8455.998,
"text": " I think being informed, arming yourself with knowledge and information. And yes, it may seem contradictory, but it requires talking to people. And by the way, formulating your own opinions as a result of that. Don't take somebody else's opinions."
},
{
"end_time": 8503.302,
"index": 334,
"start_time": 8475.879,
"text": " and understanding the playing field, you know, who's legitimate, who's not, what are the motivations and by certain organizations and people that may be involved in this topic, why do some people have the opinions that they do, you know, maybe, you know, it's hard for me to say because you're asking people to teach themselves and they say, okay, well, teach me how to teach myself. Well,"
},
{
"end_time": 8534.155,
"index": 335,
"start_time": 8504.462,
"text": " Then again, if I do that, then we fall into the same pit we did last time where I'm teaching you what to think and not how to think. And so I don't want to be overly prescriptive. Just be curious, be yourself, ask the questions. It's okay to ask the questions. I think be fearless in your pursuit of knowledge and also have the courage to question people, including myself, including Sean, including you, including everybody. Questions aren't bad."
},
{
"end_time": 8561.203,
"index": 336,
"start_time": 8534.411,
"text": " If you're going to ask somebody a question about their opinion, make damn sure you know what yours is first and be willing to state it and stand behind it and be willing to change it if the other person's opinion and their data change is yours."
},
{
"end_time": 8586.766,
"index": 337,
"start_time": 8561.817,
"text": " But holding an opinion, asking questions, and I'm not talking about you again, Kurt. I'm just saying a lot of times in this field, it's so combative that people wield questions like swords and use petty excuses for shields. It's important that we all have a good understanding. We want to have a conversation. We don't want to have an interrogation session. We want to have a, you know, a"
},
{
"end_time": 8613.797,
"index": 338,
"start_time": 8587.432,
"text": " a conversation where we're all educated enough to bring the conversation to a new level, to rise to something new and to create something new. And so that's why a lot of times we, again, we get posed a lot of questions that I'm not sure if the question person asking it already expects a specific answer or is looking to learn, I guess. So I would also say to be prepared to challenge the hucksters and the fraudsters and the liars."
},
{
"end_time": 8636.886,
"index": 339,
"start_time": 8614.343,
"text": " When someone is spewing off their opinion and they've been confirmed to be a liar and lied about things in the past, then hold them accountable. Say, hey, you said this before and you got caught lying or deceiving or not telling the truth. Why should we believe you now? There's people out there pretending they're spies. There's people out there recording private conversations."
},
{
"end_time": 8665.862,
"index": 340,
"start_time": 8637.09,
"text": " There's people out there making up conversations and claiming data that's so far beyond the pale. It's ridiculous. And they're doing all of it to maintain some kind of attention, return on investment that they need. And I just don't understand it. And there's we have a whole community that has this passive aggressive conversation on the undertone about who's doing what, who's who in the zoo and who's treating people poorly."
},
{
"end_time": 8690.742,
"index": 341,
"start_time": 8666.288,
"text": " And then everybody turns around and go, Hey, Bob, so good to be back on the show again. And what's new this week? And it's because everybody's afraid of their reputation. Everybody's afraid that, you know, they're all looking in their own, they're looking at each all their neighbors bowls to see what they have in them instead of worrying about what's in their own bowl. And it gets tiresome. I'm sorry, this keeps coming up, but it's, there's no accountability. You know, it's, it's, um,"
},
{
"end_time": 8722.705,
"index": 342,
"start_time": 8692.875,
"text": " It's a situation where you have people who are self-proclaimed experts and qualified experts when they're certainly not and who have been shown in the past to be frauds and no one holds them accountable. They continue to sow dissension and discord throughout the community and there's not a whole lot of them but there's a few of these agent provocateurs"
},
{
"end_time": 8736.544,
"index": 343,
"start_time": 8723.285,
"text": " And they're not held accountable. And they're allowed to continue to spew their vile and their misinformation and tarnish the reputation of people who really are engaged in this topic in a very serious manner. And I think that's a problem, I think."
},
{
"end_time": 8765.691,
"index": 344,
"start_time": 8737.056,
"text": " until those people are held accountable, we're going to continue to have this situation that we have now. It's because people willing to kind of turn a blind eye and they say, well, okay, let's get it. Well, at some point, you know, people, when they wonder, why don't people take this topic seriously? You got to look in the mirror at some point, you got to say, hey, you know, maybe, maybe you're the problem, maybe I'm the problem, right? And it's, it's hard to do. You got it. But, but holding people accountable and holding yourself accountable,"
},
{
"end_time": 8790.316,
"index": 345,
"start_time": 8766.357,
"text": " is I think very, very important. Every time I make a mistake, the first time someone brings it up to me, I try to get online, hey, guys, listen, I made a mistake. Let me clarify our caveat. We've got to hold ourselves accountable. I almost guarantee you, if I can, that somewhere, whether today or tomorrow or in the chat or whatever, someone's going to say, well, why don't you just name the names and think, look, I'm not here to hold people accountable."
},
{
"end_time": 8813.49,
"index": 346,
"start_time": 8791.476,
"text": " I'm here to advance the conversation. If you want me to hold people accountable, cool. We'll put the whole conversation on hold while I go into a freaking legal slog for the next 10 years of my life holding those people accountable all by my damn self. The audience needs to hold each other accountable. Self-policing our peers is the first part of our society."
},
{
"end_time": 8841.425,
"index": 347,
"start_time": 8814.138,
"text": " I mean, come on, even in the Navy, I was a master in arms. I was a law enforcement officer on board a ship. Why did we need a law enforcement officer? We had a leadership structure. They should have been taking care of all these things. But in the end of the day, we're all just humans. We need we need police, unfortunately, at some level, whole another societal argument. I don't want to peel that crap off. But I just think we can. What we're talking about here is is, look,"
},
{
"end_time": 8865.64,
"index": 348,
"start_time": 8842.261,
"text": " You don't need your subject matter experts to be generalists. You don't need your generalists to get mired in the minutia of the data. They need to trust the experts. And in this case, too, we need to look to each other and go, is this what we want? Is this the community that we want to maintain? Or can we take a break from the constant daily drip? Can we wait for things to develop?"
},
{
"end_time": 8895.606,
"index": 349,
"start_time": 8866.442,
"text": " And can we start figuring out outside of the subject matter experts that we've appointed? How do we feel about this? And what do we really believe? What are our answers to these questions? What do we think about Holloman? Have we looked into it? Does it look like nonsense or not? The next person who tells me, you know, the moon's hollow. Oh, my God. I'm just like, could you could you start somewhere else with me besides, hey, did you know the moon is hollow? You know, teach to show me that you've done your research and we don't have a baseline for that."
},
{
"end_time": 8922.927,
"index": 350,
"start_time": 8896.305,
"text": " So yeah. Let me jump in here too. Let me give you a real case scenario about holding ourselves accountable. Okay. I don't have your chat on here, but you know, you ask, perfect case of point, you ask Sean and I to come on and, and drink a beer for your show. Okay. So I thought it'd be fun to grab this. Now, what you don't know in your audience doesn't know that last night I emptied this out and I filled this with apple juice, right?"
},
{
"end_time": 8946.92,
"index": 351,
"start_time": 8923.677,
"text": " So no, I'm not going to drink on your show, but if it helps the conversation, everybody get going to be fun. Yeah, sure. Go ahead. I'll put a beer bottle and then but it was filled with apple juice that God's honest truth. And of course, what do people start accusing instantly? Oh, these guys are toasted. They're slosh. This is my point. People are so used to coming out and just spewing crap."
},
{
"end_time": 8976.954,
"index": 352,
"start_time": 8947.278,
"text": " When they don't know, they have no clue and they spew it out as facts. And then other people pick it up and say, oh, that must be right. Well, they're they're toasted. You know what? I have zero percent alcohol in my body right now. Zero. I've been drinking coffee most of the time and apple juice. This is my point. The problem with ufology and all these people out there that supposedly know shit, they don't know anything. And now, of course, oh, look at Louie's yawning and he's he must be drunk or toasted. I am stone ass cold sober."
},
{
"end_time": 9004.718,
"index": 353,
"start_time": 8977.346,
"text": " And it's, it's, this is, you know, so here's my, my, my case in point. And, and of course they don't know that you had asked us to come on your show and we'd all get relaxed and have a beer, right? Well, yeah. Okay. Sure. It's a beer bottle, but I'm not drinking beer. And so that's, this is, this is, again, I, this is just a very small example of how people who don't have all the information will jump to a conclusion."
},
{
"end_time": 9033.78,
"index": 354,
"start_time": 9005.299,
"text": " as if they do have it. And then that will pick up legs, people pick it up and say, oh, you think, oh, you're right. Oh, my gosh. I want no part of that shit. I want no part of it. That's exactly what is wrong with this community. And I'm sorry. I don't want to be part of that. I want to be part of logic and rationale. I don't want to be part of speculation and innuendos. And I think or maybe I'm not interested in that. And this is my problem. This is exactly why"
},
{
"end_time": 9060.947,
"index": 355,
"start_time": 9033.78,
"text": " I've experienced like probably 1% of what you've all experienced and it's already"
},
{
"end_time": 9088.797,
"index": 356,
"start_time": 9061.442,
"text": " It already hurts me. I have a thin skin. I'm not like you all as I was joking before. I'm not a man like you all are. And so I've experienced well, I won't get into different details. It's not about Linda Moulton Howe or anything else. And some people thought that I planned what I said to Linda Moulton Howe as a gotcha question. And then they were saying, well, why don't you interview other women? I'm saying, did you not browse through the channel? How about Mathuna? How about Meryl Kindit? How about Sabine Hassenfelder or Rebecca Goldstein and so on?"
},
{
"end_time": 9118.422,
"index": 357,
"start_time": 9089.445,
"text": " And then I feel like, oh, then I'm justifying myself and then that makes it worse because it gives they don't see it as as they're not terribly interested in and I'm speaking extremely vaguely when I say they because some people are they actually just are questioning and and maybe they're just incorrect and maybe they're passionate and and that's and that's fine. But some people they want to get you and they probably already have a reason to dislike you. Well, I'm also just speaking about myself, even though I'm using the word you."
},
{
"end_time": 9143.353,
"index": 358,
"start_time": 9119.292,
"text": " But anyway, you're pretty I'm following I'm tracking continue, please. Yeah No, it's not a pleasant place to be. I don't like it and I It affects me deeply. It affects me a bit too much. Like I get you and Linda To an extent being pushed from both sides by an angry mob there's an unfortunate aspect when you reach a certain level of exposure and"
},
{
"end_time": 9173.456,
"index": 359,
"start_time": 9144.172,
"text": " Unless you're going to put some kind of Gestapo-like filter on your chats and things like that, you're going to be exposed to people that are going to do things like that. And I'm going to bust your chops for saying you're not a man. You're most certainly a man. Don't do that to yourself, my friend. But beyond that, I'm going to tell you something. I'd rather have your thin skin because mine's scarred over. I'm not quiet or calm. I am."
},
{
"end_time": 9201.834,
"index": 360,
"start_time": 9173.865,
"text": " I am, I'm beaten and bruised by this stuff. I've had friends of mine, people who were formerly my colleagues and my friends try to hurt myself and my family and dox me on the internet on 4chan and put my personal information out there. So my phone number is useless if I want to keep it. And I'm not going to write an article about that, man. And I don't want to talk about that for too long on the show, but I'm tired and I'm hurt and I'm going to keep working. I just may not keep doing it on a camera."
},
{
"end_time": 9231.681,
"index": 361,
"start_time": 9202.688,
"text": " Yeah, it's something I think about plenty. And there's also this question that sometimes people or an accusation more than a question, which is don't you have a responsibility to do X?"
},
{
"end_time": 9248.183,
"index": 362,
"start_time": 9232.176,
"text": " and usually those come from people who don't have a large platform and they'll say well look you have a large platform so you have a responsibility to talk about X or to not talk about Y and that's so tricky because yeah who determines my responsibility"
},
{
"end_time": 9264.855,
"index": 363,
"start_time": 9248.49,
"text": " right right right there's that and outside of something that's legal like a signed document it's difficult to say that you're responsible for something although i do agree that most of the time whenever anyone lays that upon me i do think that i am responsible for most of what they say i am responsible for like i'm responsible"
},
{
"end_time": 9285.009,
"index": 364,
"start_time": 9265.418,
"text": " For putting out positive and constructive information. I don't think I am and I think I'm failing in my responsibility almost all of what they say It's just that I don't know how to live up to all of that And I also feel like sometimes some people want me to say yeah But this guest said so-and-so and that's false and don't you want to correct that and I would love actually I'm thinking about putting in a corrections segment to the introductions of the videos"
},
{
"end_time": 9295.742,
"index": 365,
"start_time": 9285.555,
"text": " But also at the same time, if I spent my time constantly correcting, I feel like then someone would say, aren't you failing in your responsibility to provide new information now?"
},
{
"end_time": 9325.998,
"index": 366,
"start_time": 9296.135,
"text": " So there are opportunity costs associated with the responsibility. And it's almost I feel like every individual has infinite responsibility. So that's why I feel like what they're saying is true. And I just say that I'm failing at my responsibility. I don't know what else to do about that other than to follow my own curiosity and to try to be honest and earnest. And that's what I try to do. And that's why some of these questions I'm asking you, you see what's wrong with them. But for me, I'm such a newcomer that I'm like, what's the big deal about these questions? I think about these questions all the time. So I'm just trying to be honest and earnest."
},
{
"end_time": 9355.589,
"index": 367,
"start_time": 9326.323,
"text": " And hopefully loving at the same time. That's all I can do is follow my own interests. I know Sean's going to jump in here in a second. Let me just say real quick, Kurt, first of all, you're doing a great job. Second of all, don't forget, everybody loves a show. Okay. There's a reason why gladiator fights were so successful in Rome. Part of it was a control mechanism to control the masses, right? Give them circus, give them bread. Human beings are for whatever reason, attracted to conflict. I don't know why."
},
{
"end_time": 9383.712,
"index": 368,
"start_time": 9355.964,
"text": " It's something that it may be deep in our DNA. Maybe it's part of the reptilian brain, no pun intended, but you know, something that for whatever reason why we maybe watch, we watch Monday Night Football because we like that head to head competition or boxing or whatever it is. Conflict seems to be an innate part of the human species. And whether we realize it or not, even when we're having an intellectual conversation like this,"
},
{
"end_time": 9404.326,
"index": 369,
"start_time": 9384.019,
"text": " There are bound to be people that want to see conflict, whether it's conflict of ideas or conflict of morals or conflict of whatever principles. And, and I think we see that I think we see where we have my team versus your team. And, you know, at the end of the gladiator fight, thumbs up or thumbs down, yay or nay. Right."
},
{
"end_time": 9431.067,
"index": 370,
"start_time": 9404.565,
"text": " You will see it in the academic and scientific communities when people are proposing theories and there's this fierce debate where people take it personally. You see it on the floors of Congress when people are debating there. You see it right here, right now. We're living through this and we don't even realize we're engaged in this type of activity because it's so human part of us to seek out this conflict when"
},
{
"end_time": 9441.869,
"index": 371,
"start_time": 9431.476,
"text": " People like Sean have been really helping people like me try to step back from that because look, my entire profession was conflict, right? Let's face it."
},
{
"end_time": 9462.91,
"index": 372,
"start_time": 9442.329,
"text": " government, military, intelligence. Your job is to outthink the enemy and win. And let's face it, the rule of war isn't to create peace. The rule of war is to kill more enemies than they kill you. It's a very violent, brutal act. And so it is part of what we are as a species. But let us recognize it."
},
{
"end_time": 9492.944,
"index": 373,
"start_time": 9463.37,
"text": " And let us control it rather than allowing it to control us, would be my suggestion. And of course, that's a topic for a whole nother discussion at some point, maybe down in the future. But how do we remove ourselves from this self-generated conflict and rise above it? So Sean, what do you think? I just wanted to say to you, man, that I really feel something you said, because I heard it in your voice and I saw it in your face."
},
{
"end_time": 9521.084,
"index": 374,
"start_time": 9494.036,
"text": " That people are telling you that you have a responsibility. I want to break that down. We're saying you have, that you're holding a responsibility. And I say, no, you haven't. Responsibility comes, first of all, responsibility is taken. It's not given. It's taken. You've been offered opportunities. These people see that you've been offered opportunities and they feel a certain amount of righteous jealousy towards you."
},
{
"end_time": 9546.578,
"index": 375,
"start_time": 9522.039,
"text": " And they're saying to you, I'm not strong enough to do this. Somehow you've won this lottery. So you have a responsibility to carry out how I feel in my stead. Bullshit. You've been offered an opportunity. Your heart tells you where you're going to take responsibility. And then you give your whole heart to it. You give your whole acumen to it. Nobody's Superman. Nobody has everything covered."
},
{
"end_time": 9575.794,
"index": 376,
"start_time": 9547.398,
"text": " You know what I mean? So you have to do what's best for you. And you can't let people tell you, you have a responsibility. Where is it? Is it on the counter or is it hanging up with the coats? Because I missed it when I walked in. I found my jeans in my wallet, but not my responsibility. So pardon me for being kind of a smart aleck there, but I see that you're under the same kind of strain that we are, man. And you may walk in front of the mirror and say, I have a responsibility."
},
{
"end_time": 9600.93,
"index": 377,
"start_time": 9576.425,
"text": " nobody else should be telling you you have a responsibility besides your spouse or your children. I agree with that. And Kurt, listen, this is something that you're probably going to face a lot more than most. And this goes for anybody in your audience too, that's under something similar. So this advice isn't just for you, Kurt. And as you know, I don't offer advice very often."
},
{
"end_time": 9623.916,
"index": 378,
"start_time": 9601.288,
"text": " It's advice I have to give myself and Sean has to give me and close friends of mine have to give me constantly and my family. At the end of the day, you're doing what you feel in your heart is right. People are going to ascribe all sorts of things. By the way, there are some bad people in this world. Believe me, I've met some of them on the wrong end of a gun."
},
{
"end_time": 9651.459,
"index": 379,
"start_time": 9624.462,
"text": " There are truly some bad people in the world and they will, whether they're on the battlefield or in cyberspace, they will make themselves known and they will do whatever they can to hurt you. And this goes for people in your audience who are experiencing the same thing. They know there are people out there that want to hurt them. The question is why? What are these individuals out there that are trying to hurt people? What is their deficiency? What are they missing inside?"
},
{
"end_time": 9673.08,
"index": 380,
"start_time": 9652.261,
"text": " that causes them to have so much hatred towards other individuals? Is it jealousy? Is it pride and ego? Is it a lack of someone maybe early on in their life giving them the attention or the emotional fulfillment that they need or the acknowledgement? Who knows? I mean, there's a lot of damaged units out there."
},
{
"end_time": 9684.019,
"index": 381,
"start_time": 9673.746,
"text": " I try to not confuse the difference between humans, which I don't particularly like, and humanity. I often tell people, you know, I love humanity, it's humans I don't like very much."
},
{
"end_time": 9707.415,
"index": 382,
"start_time": 9684.411,
"text": " There's an old saying by Mel Tormé, and this is probably why I have so many dogs. He said, the more I get to know people, the more I like dogs. And I kind of understand that. But at the same time, it's also not fair for me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a lot of people right now that are probably listening to your show, that are genuinely just really good people. And they just want to know, man, they just wanted to, hey, look,"
},
{
"end_time": 9735.691,
"index": 383,
"start_time": 9707.807,
"text": " I'm just getting into this. I'm just hearing this for the first time. Is this shit real? They just want to know that. So I guess my word of advice to you, Curtis, keep doing what you're doing and have the courage to face the bad people and call them out for what they are, not in a mean way, not to hurt them, not to do to them what they're trying to do to you, but simply to"
},
{
"end_time": 9762.125,
"index": 384,
"start_time": 9736.493,
"text": " acknowledge that for what it is and then hopefully continue doing what you do for the betterment of everybody else who really just wants answers. They enjoy being with you. They enjoy spending their time with you, listening to you and your guests on the show and they just want to learn. You got to remember to do it for them. And by the way, I have to take my own advice too. So I'm not immune to that. There's days that I say, you know, screw it. These people aren't worth it. They're not worth it. You know, truth and freedom and all that stuff. They'll never evolve to deserve it."
},
{
"end_time": 9790.282,
"index": 385,
"start_time": 9762.551,
"text": " And then I got to call myself off the ledge and say, okay, you actually know what they do. And I'm just pissed off because a few people that are jerks happen to have the loud voice when in reality, you know, most of the majority is silent. Most of the good people are silent. It's the agitators that make most of the noise. But in reality, most of the people aren't that way. And I have to remind myself of that."
},
{
"end_time": 9819.497,
"index": 386,
"start_time": 9792.193,
"text": " For the people who are wondering, hey, I thought this was a conversation about UFOs. Well, in some ways this last hour has been a meta-conversation about UFOs because it's about the conversation about UFOs, much like when the physics community or some subset of the physics community criticizes string theory because it's taken the lion's share of the money. Well, that's not a science conversation per se, it's a meta-scientific conversation because it's about, well, how are we going to divide this up?"
},
{
"end_time": 9838.848,
"index": 387,
"start_time": 9819.804,
"text": " There is plenty of conflict in this UFO community, but I know that you said they're bad people. I consider myself as a part of that group. And some people would say, well, Kurt, you're ingenuous, but yeah, but they don't see the malevolence and the egotism and the covetousness and the, and the insecurity of myself. And I wouldn't say that they're bad people. You hear that you're facing it."
},
{
"end_time": 9868.626,
"index": 388,
"start_time": 9839.138,
"text": " There's a difference. You are recognizing the fact that you're human like the rest of us. And we are all subject to weakness. That's what makes us human. It's okay. But acknowledge it. I don't see you throwing stones at other people. I see you actually embracing that part of you and saying, look, I'm human and this is what I do. And that's humility and humbleness. That's not a bad trait. That's a strength, not a weakness. You just exhibited the fact"
},
{
"end_time": 9898.319,
"index": 389,
"start_time": 9869.019,
"text": " that you can heal from anything. Literally, the last thing in the world that a narcissist can do is question themselves about possibly being a narcissist. The moment you step in front of the mirror and you go, am I the cloudy day? Dude, that is such an accomplishment. Just considering, hey, am I the a-hole here? Yeah, if you're considering it, maybe you were, and that means maybe you can overcome it."
},
{
"end_time": 9928.695,
"index": 390,
"start_time": 9898.746,
"text": " Later on, when you get down the road and you find the folks that can't find the mirror in the house, but are somehow always looking at it, those folks are on a different plane somehow. I don't understand it, but you're not there, man. You're considering yourself that and don't stop. Don't be too hard on yourself. The fact that you would turn around that quick and be like, hey, I'm a human being just like these people I'm accusing of being human. That's all it is. It's the grace we give each other after that moment of self-awareness that defines us."
},
{
"end_time": 9955.23,
"index": 391,
"start_time": 9929.548,
"text": " Kurt, that's a superpower. The fact that you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, you know what, I don't like necessarily everything I see. And, you know, I probably need to change some things. That's not a fault, brother. That's a blessing. And, you know, I think we're all better off for it when we can look in the mirror and say, you know what, sometimes I am weak. Sometimes I am selfish. Sometimes I am petty. Sometimes, you know, fill in a blank, whatever"
},
{
"end_time": 9981.8,
"index": 392,
"start_time": 9956.032,
"text": " issue it is. The problem are for those individuals who can't do that, whether they truly are sociopathic individuals or they suffer from some sort of personality disorder or narcissism. That's the problem because then there is no help because they will never be able to self-reflect and change when ultimately that is the journey for all of us. We are all brought into an imperfect world"
},
{
"end_time": 10011.544,
"index": 393,
"start_time": 9982.142,
"text": " And, you know, hopefully we leave this world better than we found it. And that's really, you know, in order to do that, you have to recognize that, hey, I'm not perfect, you know, and I'm going to make a lot of bonehead mistakes. I'm going to hold myself accountable. I'm not going to flog myself necessarily, but I will hold myself accountable and truly learn the lesson. And when I make a mistake, I'll be damned if I make that same mistake again. I'm not going to say I'm never going to make mistakes. I'm going to make mistakes all the time. I'm human and I will. That's just part of the human condition."
},
{
"end_time": 10038.951,
"index": 394,
"start_time": 10012.005,
"text": " But learn from those men and don't repeat the same mistake and have the courage, most importantly, to stand in front of the mirror and say, you know what, I don't like that about you. That's a weakness. You need to change. You need to work on it. That to me is a strength, not a weakness at all if you have the ability to do that, Curtin. Clearly, you do. I appreciate that. I think it's overly complimentary. I don't know if I deserve all that, but thank you so much. And I also think that"
},
{
"end_time": 10065.794,
"index": 395,
"start_time": 10039.48,
"text": " You know, this whole hating of humans, I know you said it glibly like hating humans, loving humanity. Seinfeld has a comment about that too. I don't know if that's possible. That's something I used to believe too. I don't know if it's possible to dislike a subset and like the whole. I think that somehow the view that one has for a tiny object or a tiny subset is somehow reflected in the whole. And I think that somehow, I know this sounds so hokey man, but I think that somehow"
},
{
"end_time": 10095.043,
"index": 396,
"start_time": 10066.886,
"text": " maybe our purpose, maybe it sounds so woo. Go for it, man. Go for it. And peculiar, but maybe it's, it's to meet hate with love and to love even those that you at least initially despise. Even if they're oppressing you, you love your oppressors. And even if they're wronging you, you love them. I think that somehow that's extremely integral. I think if you can do that, that's fantastic. Those are the life lessons that some of the great people that have walked this earth before us have tried to preach."
},
{
"end_time": 10124.309,
"index": 397,
"start_time": 10095.674,
"text": " We don't always practice it. I will tell you, I don't know if I agree necessarily that in order to love the whole, you have to love the constituent parts. There are many examples in reality where there are children that are born out of a horrible situation, whether it's rape or something else, and the child is a wonderful, loving child. But the situation that created the circumstances that brought that child into this world were less than desirable. And you don't have to love the act of that in order to love the end result of that."
},
{
"end_time": 10147.722,
"index": 398,
"start_time": 10124.667,
"text": " That's just my opinion. I've witnessed within two minutes of each other, the best and worst humanity has to offer. And there are elements of our species that I really despise. And by the way, I'm subject to the same thing. So I'm not pointing my fingers saying you humanity, I'm saying, hey, plus humanity. But I do think that"
},
{
"end_time": 10175.179,
"index": 399,
"start_time": 10148.319,
"text": " collectively, you know, for the reason why I can't answer for anybody else or speak for anybody else. The reason why I do what I do is because it's those two minutes of beauty that I've seen the human species capable of. We are capable of such hatred and destruction towards each other, but we are also capable of such kindness and beauty. And that to me is worth saving. That is why I do what I do, because those moments, those few precious moments,"
},
{
"end_time": 10204.889,
"index": 400,
"start_time": 10175.794,
"text": " You know, all of heaven, all angels sing when a good act is done and rejoice. And it's for that that is worth saving the species for. That's what makes us so wonderful. Unfortunately, we are also our own devils and we do things that are very destructive towards each other and ourselves. And that's just part of the human condition. I think that's probably normal. In fact, maybe that's one of the reasons why we're here, perhaps,"
},
{
"end_time": 10234.548,
"index": 401,
"start_time": 10205.486,
"text": " is to learn to rise above it. There are certainly certain religions that feel that way, that we're going to continue coming back over and over again until we finally learn our lesson. Maybe that's the natural order of things. I don't know. But I do think that it's OK to be human, but we need to recognize when we are doing evil towards each other. And we have to be willing to hold each other and ourselves accountable. And that's the life lesson."
},
{
"end_time": 10259.65,
"index": 402,
"start_time": 10235.589,
"text": " Thank you all for coming out to this. I appreciate it. It took an interesting turn and I hope a productive one. I think so. There was a time in about a month ago or so or two months ago when on Twitter, I was realizing that there's plenty of hate and I'm not saying I'm immune from this hate. Like if people saw what occurs in my mind, I think people will be extremely surprised at the egotism and selfishness and so on."
},
{
"end_time": 10289.224,
"index": 403,
"start_time": 10261.237,
"text": " Well, there is, I wouldn't say competing factions in the UFO content creator community, but there are different beefs. And I thought, you know, it'd be great if we could all, why don't we all just put that aside and just have beer, even though I'm drinking tea, but have beer and be on a collective Zoom call, just put aside, extend the olive branch. So while this conversation may seem like it has nothing to do with UFOs, maybe, maybe, but maybe it's a more important conversation because it,"
},
{
"end_time": 10317.5,
"index": 404,
"start_time": 10289.889,
"text": " It deals with what gives birth to the conversations about UFOs. Kurt, how can you honestly have a question and a conversation and answers about potentially one of the most existential issues facing our species if we don't even understand ourselves? How do you possibly expect to understand someone or something else or another species"
},
{
"end_time": 10333.609,
"index": 405,
"start_time": 10317.841,
"text": " If we don't even understand how we work, they are the same. If you want, and this is why I kind of, and I'll just share with you now, the reason why I said, look, when you ask you my number one advice, understanding UFOs, go hug your kid and go hug your family, because that's where it starts."
},
{
"end_time": 10363.302,
"index": 406,
"start_time": 10333.933,
"text": " That's where it starts. It doesn't start reading a book. It doesn't start with having a conversation, a podcast. It starts here. It starts here right now, reaching out and understanding who you are as an individual and what you are and what is meaningful in life. That's where that journey begins. It doesn't start out there. It starts in here, right here. That's how you have to make that journey. The very first step to understanding out there is first understanding right here."
},
{
"end_time": 10377.022,
"index": 407,
"start_time": 10363.865,
"text": " And what's here. And this is why I said what I did without you know going into a lot of detail earlier because it sounds kind of kind of I know, little mushy but, but I mean it. And Sean will tell you how many times have we over the years had this conversation."
},
{
"end_time": 10405.469,
"index": 408,
"start_time": 10378.473,
"text": " There's no shortcut. You can't just all of a sudden have a shortcut and boom, now I understand, you know, the secrets of the universe. You first have to try to understand the secrets of yourself that you've been keeping hidden from yourself and others. And only then, when you understand that, will you be able to even begin to ask the right questions to understand what lies beyond. They're going to say, oh, I thought you were about science and nuts and bolts and evidence and all this stuff. And then it's like, but hold on a minute. I can tell you're not even here right now."
},
{
"end_time": 10428.592,
"index": 409,
"start_time": 10406.783,
"text": " You're not even present in the conversation. I don't mean you. I mean, you know, the hypothetical person we're talking to. I'm like, bro, you're either lost in the future or the past at every moment, either in fear of something that hasn't occurred or in regret of something that happened before and trying to figure out how not to go through that pain again and try to avoid it. You're just on the treadmill and going. I'm not there anymore."
},
{
"end_time": 10459.48,
"index": 410,
"start_time": 10429.531,
"text": " You know, and it gives a different perspective and it gives an idea of some of the larger ideas behind UAP, a completely different, different vantage point. And I think one way to, I know we're getting near the end of our conversation, but we do, some people ask me, I say this, this phrase and people go, what's that mean? And I'm like, it means what the two words mean, put them together. So figure it out. But consensus reality is the reality that we're all sharing our language,"
},
{
"end_time": 10489.326,
"index": 411,
"start_time": 10459.77,
"text": " Our monetary systems, our decoration, the shapes of our houses and our cars, those are all consensus reality. We decided those things look like that, and we're going to keep them looking like that, and things are going to look like this, and we're going to talk this way, and we're going to do these things. That could be flipped upside down tomorrow, and the human animal would still survive. It could all be removed, and the human animal would develop a new way of communicating and a new consensus reality. And that consensus reality at some point in our past was about animalistic spirits and"
},
{
"end_time": 10518.951,
"index": 412,
"start_time": 10489.633,
"text": " and our connection to nature, and now it's very techno-based, very self-aware and introspective. Everyone's a guru now. Everyone's a technological maniac. That's a lousy word. Everyone is an engineer. They have all of these devices in their hands. They can collect all of this data. Now everyone meditates. The world a thousand years ago would not recognize us now. They would think we were all super people."
},
{
"end_time": 10549.087,
"index": 413,
"start_time": 10520.111,
"text": " And we all sit around still laughing with each other because our kids can't balance a checkbook. And this is a large reality. Especially in this field, we peel off pieces of it that are way bigger than we think they are. And we say, I'm going to try to slap a binary answer on this right now, right here, and then we can go chill out. It's not that easy. Your life lasts as long as your life does. Your journey lasts as long as your journey does. And that may not be a nuts and bolts answer some people want."
},
{
"end_time": 10578.456,
"index": 414,
"start_time": 10549.48,
"text": " But if you don't know who the hell you are, stop asking me who the hell they are. Thank you both for coming out and for spending so much time with me and the 3000 other people who are watching. It's an honor, man. I know we went all over the place and I love that we got. Look, when we talked beforehand, I told you whatever it is, we'll get through it. And it's not that we were anticipating conflict, but it was we knew that there had been some, you know, there's been some static in the past and"
},
{
"end_time": 10595.299,
"index": 415,
"start_time": 10578.951,
"text": " Thanks, man. Yeah."
},
{
"end_time": 10617.278,
"index": 416,
"start_time": 10595.623,
"text": " Kurt, I agree. Thank you. Always an honor and privilege to be here. Thank you for humility. Thank you for your honesty. You know, we all suffer privately sometimes with these demons and it's called humanity, man. This is the situation we're in."
},
{
"end_time": 10642.21,
"index": 417,
"start_time": 10617.602,
"text": " Let's just recognize and try to help each other out of the ditch. Whenever one of us falls into the ditch, don't throw stones. Try to help the person out. Come on out here. Let me give you a helping hand. And I think that's part of the lesson of the journey. And I know you probably want to spend the last hour talking about UFOs, but in reality, time has probably come for us to have an honest conversation about ourselves"
},
{
"end_time": 10659.053,
"index": 418,
"start_time": 10642.688,
"text": " in order to continue that conversation about UFOs. And I want to applaud you for doing this. I'm not sure we've really had a chance to ever do this before on any type of podcast. And I want to thank your audience for those out there that are truly interested and have been patient."
},
{
"end_time": 10687.466,
"index": 419,
"start_time": 10659.48,
"text": " with us. Thank you so much. Thank you for letting us kind of go off on a bit of a tangent, if you will, or a detour. But I think it's helpful for the conversation. So we all understand where we're coming from. We all understand each other a little bit better. And then maybe we get better at sharing ideas, you know, with each other instead of, you know, sharing insults. Okay, I'll speak for another couple minutes and answer any audience questions."
},
{
"end_time": 10718.66,
"index": 420,
"start_time": 10690.299,
"text": " I see Todd Trowbridge, you had a comment which said, thanks Kurt, Lou and Sean, appreciate your time and effort despite the challenges of having a rational grounded conversation of the subject area. I will make sure that they see that beer bottle gate. That's hilarious. That's said by Machiavelli too. Dirty Teaspoon wants to know if I can invite Richard Dolan. I have and here you go. That's the URL."
},
{
"end_time": 10748.746,
"index": 421,
"start_time": 10720.555,
"text": " Joshua wants to know, Kurt, do you feel your foray into this topic has been a net positive or negative? I think on the surface, it's been a net negative. Maybe it's been a net positive or will become a net positive for myself. I hope that is a net positive for others. Part of me taking a while before coming back to this topic was me assessing that, but I'm not saying it's altruistic. It's mainly selfish. I was assessing it for myself."
},
{
"end_time": 10779.599,
"index": 422,
"start_time": 10750.299,
"text": " So Kepsta asks, Kurt, what did you learn from this interview that they didn't already talk about? Well, generally, I find that most of the time watching anything on UFOs, any content on UFOs doesn't provide me with what's new. Although that's a bit false because I'm so fresh. I'm green in the subject that there's bound to be one, two, three pieces that are foreign to me at the time. But much of the learning, at least for myself,"
},
{
"end_time": 10809.309,
"index": 423,
"start_time": 10780.026,
"text": " doesn't come from what happened in the moment but rather me thinking about the content weeks later and then also conversing with others much like a movie when I watch a movie it's a strange question to ask what did I learn from the movie much of it comes from weeks later and hearing what other people think and then also conversing with others and mauling over my own thoughts so it's not clear to me what is the content is the content here or is the content what occurs over the course of days and months later someone wants to know is Gary Nolan coming onto the show"
},
{
"end_time": 10837.244,
"index": 424,
"start_time": 10809.48,
"text": " Yes, in early April. I haven't announced the specific date yet. Pius' interview will be March 27th. Someone wants to know when am I getting Stephen Greer on. I've asked him or his people each month for the past six months or so, and they've said no each time. Maybe even longer than six months. Justin Forder says, thanks, Kurt. Look after yourself. Thank you. I'm trying. Yes, I'm trying. Also, now may be a great time to let you know"
},
{
"end_time": 10866.578,
"index": 425,
"start_time": 10837.568,
"text": " that there's a link to the Patreon in the description if you'd like to support this podcast. As the patrons and the sponsors are the only reasons that I'm able to do this full-time, I rely pretty much exclusively on their support, and only do so if you feel like you have the means. There's no obligation at all. Currently, there's no special incentive for being a patron, such as a mug or some ad-free experience, nothing like that, and this is the way I'd like to keep it so that you're not being persuaded to join for any reason other than simply supporting the podcast."
},
{
"end_time": 10893.439,
"index": 426,
"start_time": 10866.988,
"text": " And also, by the way, the comments that I mentioned about people saying you are responsible for so-and-so, that happens from like five people out of tens of thousands of people. It's just that there's this negativity bias where I, like I'm a member of the human, I'm a member of humans and humans have this. There's this negativity bias where one focuses overly on the anxiety provoking. Okay, well, thank you all. I appreciate it and take care."
},
{
"end_time": 10915.009,
"index": 427,
"start_time": 10895.828,
"text": " The podcast is now finished. If you'd like to support conversations like this, then do consider going to patreon.com slash C-U-R-T-J-A-I-M-U-N-G-A-L. That is Kurt Jaimungal. It's support from the patrons and from the sponsors that allow me to do this full time. Every dollar helps tremendously. Thank you."
}
]
}No transcript available.