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Exposing the Secrets of the Trillion-Dollar Scam Industry
January 11, 2025
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podcast and enter promo code SPACE80. It started with a scream inside a quiet Maryland home. A mother trying to protect the family dog and her son in the grip of a violent hallucinogenic rage. By the time it was over, she was dead and he claimed LSD made him do it. His name David Minor the fourth and we talked to him.
Listen to Invisible Choir every other week as we uncover the most haunting true crimes you've never heard of. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jean Chatsky. You may know me as the host of the Her Money podcast or the financial editor of NBC's Today Show for 25 years.
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Plus your first month is absolutely free. So come check us out at investingfix.com. We'd love to have you. It's known as a large municipal fraud in US history. So look at Rita and you're sort of like, wow, you live like a queen for 20 years and served eight. One may argue that crime does pay. So the reason why he was diluting medication and making it spread further was two things.
He had a large bill from the IRS that he wanted to pay and record show was around half a million dollars. And then he wanted to make a million dollar donation to his church. So he wanted to expand his gross margin. He wanted to make a million dollar donation to the church. This guy made millions, but every two or three years he would hit everybody across the board for like $39.
This guy's a multimillionaire. He's got like 20 gyms. He's got, you know, he lives in a, in a $4 million house. Like he's filthy rich. And this is just the narcissist in me is that this one student said, this female student goes, do you feel like she's, do you feel like you got away with it for so long because you're so charming? And I mean, I started laughing so hard. I was like, be honest with you. Like how close are you with your wife?
And I went, what do you mean? He said, listen, he was because all the loans are in her name. Mr. Black's sister saying my brother was in a horrible accident. He's currently in a coma. The doctors say this is this is too much. I don't believe you did. This is too. You did all this. And I waited about a month and a half and then I called the police and said I got broke into and then
Hey, this is Matt Cox and I'm going to be interviewing Kelly Pope and she is the author of a book about con men called Fool Me Once. And we're going to be talking about the book and talking about a few different con men and scams and that sort of thing. So check out the interview. What's going on? Tell me about yourself.
Well, I am an accounting professor. I'm a filmmaker. And now, well, not now, I've been an author, but I have a new book out, which is why we're talking. And this is my sample copy. But this is it called Fool Me Once.
Scam stories and secrets from the trillion-dollar fraud industry so you can see all of my notes that I take every time I read it. That is my latest project. I'm super excited. I heard in your intro you said it's about conmen. It's about more than that though.
What else is it about? The first part of the book is about perpetrators, which is where you're talking about. But then the second part or the middle part is about victims. And then the last part is about whistleblowers. So I don't know how you feel about whistleblowers. You may hate them, but there's a whole lot of whistleblowers. I'm a big fan. There's a whole section devoted to whistleblowers. And I created a game called the fully once fraud experience. And so when you go through it,
It'll tell you what type of perpetrator you would be if you were ever to be one and what type of whistleblower would you be if you were ever to be one. So in the book I talk about that there are three types of perpetrators. All perpetrators are not the same. Intentional perpetrators, accidental perpetrators, and righteous perpetrators. Now Matthew, I've read a lot about you and heard a lot about you. I'm sorry to say
You were definitely or your past life, you were definitely an intentional perpetrator. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there was that was your whole goal. Wasn't an accident. Wasn't an accident. I deposited that that that check into my own account. Wasn't
So, but and what I wanted to do was to offer a new way of thinking because there are people that are following the boss's orders or people that are utilizing their internal press, internal resources to help someone help someone.
outside of the company. And so what I wanted people to understand is everyone is not in it for just personal gain. And so I don't think that we should loop everybody together. And so that's what the whole perpetrator section is about. So the game tells you based on going through these various scenarios, what type of perpetrator are you actually? So it'd be interesting to see how you play it and see if you actually are an intentional perpetrator. Maybe, just maybe, you might be a righteous perpetrator.
Something tells me you could easily end up, right? I could manipulate my answers to make it look that way.
Yeah, I don't think so. What I wanted to do was to stop, allow people to think that, yeah, you know, you might do something too. Because a lot of times we're so quick to say, oh, look at them. That's what they do. But actually, when we started talking about fraud, it's what we all do. Just the other day, you did a presentation with my students. And it was interesting to see how they were mesmerized.
You were a little upset when they were saying, yeah, that makes sense. I would do that. You were like, I wasn't expecting them to say that. But you know, when you were talking about how you would change or increase someone's
I'm
Yeah, so you know it's what I wanted to do with the book is Allow people to look at Be a little bit more self-reflective, you know Because a lot of us agree to a lot of things as long as we think we won't get caught and we'll do right So that was um, so those the perpetrator chapter. So there's three chapters devoted to them And then you know, yes, just because of your background. I'm really curious. What do you think about whistleblowers? You do like them
Yeah, I don't have a problem like like typically whistleblowers do stuff like some companies overbilling the government or some company is cheating its customers in some way or lying to the public or something. It's like, why would someone have a problem with those people doing the right thing? For instance, look at the guy with with
Gosh, he did the Ponzi scheme, um, Bernie Madoff with Bernie Madoff. That guy spent four or five years begging the authorities to listen to him. I mean, I'm sorry to listen to him and not really did for a long time. He went in and had presentations and they just shrugged it off and laugh. And it was like, no, no, you can say, Oh, you should have minded those own business. He, there were thousands of people that lost their life savings.
that could have been saved if they'd listened to him the very first time or done even a cursory investigation and looked into it. They could have saved thousands of people who are now living with their kids or had to sell their house who lost everything because this guy was just trying to do the right thing.
So what tends to happen is when someone comes forward, you turn the spotlight on them and sort of pick their life apart to realize, to try to figure out why they shouldn't be credible, and that shouldn't happen. So in the section of the book about whistleblowers, I come up with three types. There's an accidental whistleblower. You can either be a noble whistleblower, or you could be a vigilante whistleblower. Now, vigilante whistleblowers
They don't mind their business at all. You know, they're just sort of the person. Imagine the older lady that's sitting in front of the window watching to see if anybody's speeding down the street and she'll take down your license plate number and call the call the police and say, this person was speeding. You need to contact them. That's sort of the vigilante. We need all of them kind of like a Karen.
What I wanted to do with the book was really help people figure out where they fit in this sort of the
industrial fraud complex. And so in the middle section of the book is about victims. And so I break those into innocent bystanders and organizational targets. And all of this was inspired. I don't even know if we talked about my documentary, but I have a documentary. And so all of this was it was inspired by my documentary, which is called All the Queen's Horses, which chronicles the largest municipal fraud in U.S. history. Oh, my gosh. I totally the the the woman who was doing the books.
for that for that county and she had the horses. Yes. Oh wow. That's my documentary. Okay II did not yet. She was she was she was telling everybody they gotta cut back. They have to cut back. She's stealing the whole time. Yes. We don't have enough money. Yes. So that so that was really the inspiration. So I did the documentary steal 53.7
Oh, over 20. They didn't raise the that raise the taxes over multiple borrow more money, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that so a Rita Cronwell was my inspiration because she was an intentional perpetrator, the whistleblower.
was a woman by the name of Kathy Swanson. And Kathy was what I categorize as an accidental whistleblower. She never suspected her boss doing anything. She just sort of stumbled upon it. And then the residents of Dixon, Illinois are innocent bystanders. And then the town of Dixon is an organizational target. So that's sort of how the documentary really inspired the work in the book. And so throughout the whole book, you learn more about the documentary. And so that story
of what I learned doing the film is sort of throughout the entire book. So watch the film, then read the book. Where is the film or where it lives on Amazon Prime? So it's there now so you can find it. OK, that they they bought the rights or they OK, it's streamed on Netflix for a year from 2018 to 2019. And then after my streaming period was up and went over to Amazon, I think I must. I don't know where I saw I saw it.
trying to think of where I must have seen it on on on Netflix because I just got Amazon. So I must have seen it on Netflix when it came out. Yeah. And I actually had spoken. The only reason I knew about it was someone contacted me and that person was in communication with her in federal prison and was trying to get her to write like a memoir.
You've found a calling and a voice for yourself in all of this.
And so a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people, Rita has value if she would recognize her value. She does. I mean, think about all of the municipalities she could speak at or do consultant services for and who would listen to her. I mean, they really would.
So I think she's missing a huge opportunity. You know, once you get through the hate, because you're going to have hate, but everybody has hate. I mean, even if you don't commit a crime, you have hate. People hate me, you know, for whatever reason. So you're always going to have that. So I think that she's missing, she's missed a golden opportunity to actually help other municipalities and towns because they would listen to her. You know, they really would. So here's the thing.
She got 19 years and seven months in federal prison, but get this, something called COVID happened. And when COVID happened, she got out early. She got out early. She only served about eight years. So she got out in 2021 because of COVID. If there were no COVID, she would be still in federal prison right now, but she got out. And she's by the way, when they, you know, that, that ends, uh, at the end of this month, the mandate, but they don't have to go back.
But they're not going back. I was going to say, I was always like, Oh, well, they're going to pull them all back. No. And so that's the thing. I think, um, under the Trump administration, they might have had to go back, but the Biden administration decided, no, they could stay, but maybe Trump would have sent them back. I don't know. You know, and I can like, so here's the problem, even though, well, first of all, the offenders that got out were not, you know, horribly violent offenders. They need to be watched.
So I get letting these people out because they're just not that much of a huge danger to society, as long as they're monitored. But, you know, like if you've got 10 years to do, but usually some of these sentences are outrageous to begin with. So I'm kind of conflicted.
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And you know, the interesting thing about Rita's case is because she was, she's, she's an icon because she's the largest municipal fraudster in US history. So I think it sends a bad message when the icon does less time. That's the problem. If she had just been an embezzler and let's say she walked off of 20 million or 15 million and she got off, maybe people wouldn't have even known about it. But when she got released, that made news because
even still to this date she's the largest it's known as a large municipal fraud in US history so that person can't get out even if she was over sentenced which is what I talk about towards the end of the book because
I talked to some people that do research in sentencing. It's a sentencing guidelines expert and I interviewed him for the book and looking at Rita's case and looking at other people that were sentenced in her same class around the same time with the same amount of money stolen. It looks as though she was over sentenced. So that being said, she actually served
It started with a scream inside a quiet Maryland home, a mother trying to protect the family dog and her son in the grip of a violent hallucinogenic rage. By the time it was over, she was dead, and he claimed LSD made him do it.
His name, David Minor IV, and we talk to him. Listen to Invisible Choir every other week as we uncover the most haunting true crimes you've never heard of, available wherever you get your podcasts.
Her getting out sent a very mixed message, you know, that age old question, does crime pay? And you look at Rita and you're sort of like, wow, you live like a queen for 20 years and served eight. One may argue that crime does pay. Yeah, she'll probably end up, she'll probably end her, you know,
in the
Maybe the brother owns his house or, you know, you're, you can keep your, depending on where you live, you can keep your expenses relatively low. Yeah. Yeah. She's clever. Obviously she's clever. She's already thinking of ways to get around, you know, her restitution. And once it's final that she's not going back, which it probably obviously is, and she gets a regular job.
Somebody will hire her. Yeah. I mean, somebody will hire her. I mean, you know, someone and she can do, there are things she can still do, but just imagine if she were willing to create a platform, like a podcast. I mean, she could be, but I can tell you from being in prison with other guys that have committed fraud night, I was the only person that was in prison thinking when I get out, like I'm,
I'm going to figure out a way to make this work for me, you know, doing the things that I want to do in life. I mean, I'm not going to hide like everybody else was these guys are talking about changing their name. They're talking about spinning it. They're talking about maybe, you know, getting an article written that says that makes it sound more like it's a mistake that they were they were erroneously, you know, prosecuted and that it was there was these other guys and they got thrown in there, you know, whatever.
And it was always just like, you know, man, you're going to be running from this the rest of your life. Like you can't, it's part of you. So, you know, you can either embrace it and find out the good in it or you can run from it. And it's, and it's hard to run from, you know, it really is. Especially now it wouldn't have been 30 years ago. Yeah. You could get out, moved to another city, start over and nobody ever has a clue. But now. Yeah. I used to always, I used to always say, I said, listen, man, everybody likes a comeback story. Yeah. You know, what's the problem? Like,
Pierre Rossini, in the 1990s, was a 20-something year old Los Angeles-based drug trafficker of ecstasy and ice. He and his associates drove luxury European supercars, lived in Beverly Hills penthouses, and dated Playboy models while dodging federal indictments.
Two FBI officers with the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force entered the picture. Dirty agents willing to fix cases and identify informants. Suddenly, two of Racini's associates, confidential informants working with federal law enforcement, were murdered. Everyone pointed to Racini. As his co-defendants prepared for trial, U.S. Attorney Robert Mueller sat down to debrief Racini at Leavenworth Penitentiary with another story
A tale of FBI corruption and complicity in murder. You see, Pierre Racine knew something that no one else knew. The truth. And Robert Mueller and the federal government have been covering it up to this very day. The devil exposed. A twisted tale of drug trafficking, corruption and murder in the city of Angeles.
available on Amazon and Audible. So something sometimes people ask me is what's my favorite story and so I always start with All the Queen's Horses because I did the documentary about it. It sort of goes with me and has been with me for such a long time but there's other stories that are throughout the book. So one of the things that I like to tell people
Although I'm a professor, the book is not a textbook. It's story-driven, character-driven, and it's a fun read. I wish I had met you a year ago because you would have been in it. You would have been great. So yeah, I have to figure out how to incorporate an interview with you some kind of way. You're in Florida, right? Yeah. Tampa? Tampa, Florida. Okay. All right. I might have to take a team down there and interview you one day. Where are you located? Chicago.
Yeah, well, I mean, are you thinking about doing another documentary like that one?
You know, what I'm doing right now is I want to do like a video series that goes with the book. So I want to talk to some intentional perpetrators, some righteous perpetrators, and some, I'm sorry, intentional perpetrators, accidental perpetrators, and righteous perpetrators. I want to talk to those three and sort of show just snippets when I'm talking to people.
Yeah, so that's it. I don't know if I'll ever do another documentary again. You actually have... That's kind of a documentary. Yeah, sort of. A little short. You're just breaking it into episodes. Yeah, yeah. It's a little short. But your story, I find, you have so many layers. Because what I find fascinating, you are fascinating, don't get me wrong. But what's also interesting about your story is the complacency that people have
when you share the details of what you were doing, because when we want something, we will forget all rules to get what we want. So if I wanted a loan for my business, or if I wanted a house, and I needed this loan, and good grief, I fell in love with this house, and it's $600,000, and I only qualify for $400,000, but there's this person that can help me get what I want, and I know I can pay for it.
I might be like, hey, Matt, a lot of us would be that way. I was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday, and she's always talking about how she doesn't have enough money, doesn't have enough money, what she complains about all the time. Yet, she qualified for a $700,000 house. And I said, how? How did you qualify for a $700,000 house? If you're struggling to pay your rent now,
How are you going to double that and not struggle? She's like, I don't know, but I qualify for it. So I thought about you. I was thinking, yeah, something's not right. Like usually you qualify for
for less than you think. You know what I'm saying? You're looking for 200,000. And like something that you explained to my students is even with your debt to income ratio, right? That is a real thing. I mean, between your credit score and those two things, you know, they have to talk and make sense. So even if she has superb credit,
and low debt, she still have to have cash flow. So when she told me she qualified for that much, I'm like, yeah, is there something shady going on here? That's what I thought about. Cause I knew your case. Yeah, you gotta, yeah. Well, the big problem is a lot of people, oh, I qualify for it or I want to, I'll figure a way out. Figuring a way out doesn't mean you qualify like that. I can afford it. You think you can afford it. Like if one or two things go wrong,
and you're going into the hole, then you don't qualify for it because all that's taken into consideration.
And the tough thing about what you're seeing in our economy is with all these layoffs is that package doesn't get you that far. So when you think about these types of ethical scenarios people find themselves in or what they're willing to agree to, a lot more of us are willing to agree to doing some shady stuff than we think because of just tension, life tension and pressure. All your students were, it's a few points.
What about like, did you say like, if you could qualify, but you know, you couldn't quite qualify, you didn't have enough money, but the guy you were working with was willing to alter some things and they were kind of like, yeah, I don't see that. It's a big deal. Well, I mean, all of that's fraud. Yeah, but they saw nothing wrong with it because when we want something,
All bets are off all rules go out the window. I want this. How can I get it? And so I think that that's why
Stories and cases like yours are so powerful because at least right now, it gave them something to think about. Like they'll never forget hearing you. They never will forget that. I mean, that second class that you spoke to, they rarely, they don't stay after class. They were after class talking about you. Just how, wow. Like they were just 15 minutes after class. They were just like, I mean, he was amazing. And they were like, listen, if I'm going to commit fraud,
I'm not going to do it, but if I were, that's how I'm going to do it. I'm going to live my life. That's what they heard from you. Well, yeah, I know. I know that wasn't what you were. That wasn't your intention. It wasn't my intention. However, it was, it was interesting. That was very interesting. But the first class had a lot more questions. Well, once, once they started getting, once they started getting going, the second one, once you prodded them a little bit, they started
That's a good point. Absolutely.
How'd you do this? I don't like that. But you know what was also fascinating when you talked about how you learned because you know some one student asked were you just a genius and you were like well you know I learned from people so like you would find out okay how'd y'all figure this out my client did this how'd you figure this out
And so that was interesting too, because you don't realize how much you disclose about your process, which is an internal control weakness in itself. And a lot of people don't think about that. They don't think about when you call a bank or you call any place and you're like, tell me about the process again. How did that happen? And people are willing to share, right? That's an internal control weakness as well. Well, I was going to say, um,
for instance, me being the broker between the customer and underwriting, you know, when I was like, how did you even catch this? And they go, well, like they think we're on the same team. Listen to what we did. What'd you do? And that's, they're telling me how they caught my customer. They're actually telling me how to beat their system. And you know, something else that that is to our detriment is we're all very trusting. And so they initially, because you, you, um,
You have an armor of trust. And something we didn't talk about in class yesterday was privilege. And I think there's a privilege that you have that you were able to move through the system being a Caucasian male. You know, people automatically trust you. I have the three C's going for me that I was I said I'm Caucasian. I'm confident and I'm clean cut.
They would and and you know, it's like so you don't you just don't expect it like especially when I know What they're looking for they're looking for me to get nervous and try and leave they're looking like there's all these things I know like it's I'd be at the teller and they'd say oh well I have to call oh, there's something's up with the account I've got a call and get authorization and I go hi and I just lean there and I look around and look at the
You know, look, I'm looking at the cameras and looking around and like they're expecting me to leave or be nervous. I'm not nervous. I opened the account. I know what you're going to find. I know it's a new account. I know I'm removing over $3,000. Any account open within the last 12 months is going to get that. They have to make a phone call. I know they're going to review it. They've reviewed it before at all the other banks. They do it. So I'm okay with that. There were no surprises. There were no surprises. Right. But most people, why didn't you run?
Why would I run? I know what's happening right now. If something happens and they say something is absolutely wrong, do you know what they're going to do? I'm sorry, we can't help you. That's it. Everybody thinks they're going to call the police. They're going to have you arrested. They're not doing any of that. They don't know what the issue is. I've actually had accounts shut down where you go online and I went to go transfer money and the account has been, it's inactive.
And it's like, I've got like $150,000, $200,000 in that account. And then you call them and the bank says, yeah, we need you to come in so we can talk about this. Cause think about if it's fraud, you're not coming in jumped in my car. I'm driving down there. You got $150,000 of my money because I know that I opened the account. I know where that money came from. I know.
that the person's identity, you didn't go talk to this guy because he lives under a bridge somewhere. So you didn't track him down. You knew the process. Right. So I walk in, I sit down, I'm like, somebody been make some phone calls.
We need to get this thing taken care of. This is the thing, Matt. The thing about that is that privilege allows you and you know that that allows you to walk in. I mean, if you put on a suit or a sports cap, we're done. Like no one's going to question you. Right. You know, so that's something we didn't talk about. And I'm
You know, given that I don't have a lot of diversity. Well, I have a little bit of diversity in my class, but not a ton. So I don't know that they get that. But that's something that's sort of the foundation of a lot of how this happens for some. Right. I don't know, even for me, I don't know that I could walk in and do that. I mean, they might call the police on me, maybe, where they won't call the police on you.
If you threw a little ghetto in there, did your head do that head thing? You might get the cops called. Yeah, but even if I didn't, I might. I was going to say, what is another one of the scams that you go over in the book? I'll tell you one, and this one's a disturbing one.
The healthcare fraud scams are the ones that are a little bit more disturbing.
but there's a story in the book. There's it's also, it's in the intentional perpetrator chapter and it's in the victim chapter. And it's the story of Dr. Robert Courtney and Dr. Robert Courtney was a compound pharmacist. So he's the one that's working in the lab that is making the medicine that then gets shipped to the CVS or the doctor's office. So he's the pharmacist we never even think about or ever see. Okay. So this guy,
What he started to do was he started to dilute medication. We put him in the intentional perpetrator category but we also interviewed some of the victims.
This is a perfect fraud. I'm just saying air quotes around this because it's sort of, it's terrible what he did. But think about, when you think about how fraud is discovered, if you have a stage four, 75 year old, um, pancreatic cancer patient that dies, you're not really going to question it. Right. If you have a stage four breast cancer patient, 79 years old female stage four who died,
They just didn't react well to the, they didn't take the medicine correctly. They were already, it's a good chance he was going to die anyway. Absolutely. So yes. So, so the likelihood of this being discovered was very, very slim. And so the reason why he, why he was diluting medication and making it spread further was two things. He had a large bill from the IRS that he wanted to pay and record show was around half a million dollars. And then he wanted to make a million dollar donation to his church. So,
He wanted to expand his gross margin. He wanted to make a million dollar donation to the church. His dad was a pastor, so he grew up in the church. Wow. So giving to the church was more important to him than helping save cancer patients. This is the thing. You know, this is the thing. Like we already just talked about, like, were you going to save the life of a person that's stage four pancreatic cancer, stage four breast cancer, and you're 80 years old?
Probably not and so what happened the way it was discovered was really interesting because One of the nurses that worked in the oncologist oncology office of the doctor Started getting really concerned because the patients weren't showing the traditional Cancer patient signs. So if you have cancer and you're going through chemo, what do you think that you're gonna see? Yeah, they're gonna be sick. They're gonna get tired afterwards. They're going to
But you were saying he just diluted it. So think about this. Some of the medication had no medicine in it. It was just saline solution. So what she started to notice was they didn't have nausea. They weren't losing their hair. They weren't getting thinner. You know, there are some things that you expect. And just like you said, the chemo responds differently to all people. And that's something that we always say. And that is generally true.
My father passed away from non-Hoskins lymphoma. And when he went through chemo, he got sick immediately. So there are some things that are sort of standard. So the nurse started to get concerned that why aren't my patients showing some of the signs? Like they're not losing their hair. They're not nauseous. They're not extremely fatigued. Now they had other signs because they were deathly sick. And so what she decided to do
was she took a bag of the medication and sent it to the FDA because she was so concerned about it. That was one thing she did. Let me back up a second. Something else that she had a good relationship with the pharmaceutical sales rep that came to their doctor's office and she was talking about how busy she had been with all the patients. And the sales rep said,
That's odd, because Dr. Courtney hasn't purchased enough medication for you all to be as busy as you're saying. So those two things in between, you're making faces. You understand what I'm saying? No, I understand. It is amazing that those two people were so in sync with
I have a couple of friends that work in pharmaceutical sales jobs and some of them are friends with the doctors and some of them are friends with the nurses staff because they go weekly because when they have samples of drugs, they are going to say, hey, give these to your patients. Let's run some tests. Let's get some feedback so they can have a relationship. I'm not surprised by that. I'm not telling you the relationship but that you just happen to get
Like the nurse, I understand the nurse catching, I've got 30 patients and in the last two weeks, almost none of them have gotten sick. Like that's odd. Like I've been doing this for 10 years. Well, and the sales rep, the sales rep is like, why do you have 30 patients? Because he, that doctor has only, we've only sold for five. Right.
The fact that both of them were aware enough to connect that and both of them go, something's not right. Most people just don't do that. Most people go through their jobs and they're just clicking the buttons. They're not even thinking. Think about this.
She's thinking about how busy she is and he's thinking about his money cause he's a sales rep. So his, his bonuses are being impacted by the lack of sales. So when she said that to him, like, Oh gosh, we are slam. We are so busy. He was probably like, that doesn't match my records. Why are you so busy? Are you using somebody else or you understand that either one of them that it's, it's, it's lucky, lucky for the patients.
that they were both that they do they both had that conversation they both she happened to mention it and he happened to pick up on it right that whole thing like that's a quint that's that's a you know there's some there's some months in time through this but you know you think about
that coupled with the fact that you have these patients that are not getting sick as they should, you know, so all of these little pieces floating out there. So she took this sample, got it tested, got this particular bag and this particular bag had, I think a drop of medication. And so that's how the investigation started. I mean, people just imagine there were 98,000 prescriptions that he manipulated. So there were some people that are stage three
cancer patients that never even got
I'm gonna take $40 from 100,000 people like they're not gonna nobody's hurt 40 bucks come on you you overcharge somebody's visa $40 or something you know
That's not, you know, this is, this is, this is killing people. Yeah. This is serious because we do know that chemotherapy does work, you know, so we do know that you can was questionable anyway. Well, but depending on my questionable, but like if you're early stage three, you might be able to stop it. Yeah. You got like a night probably it depends on the cancer, obviously, but you might have between a 70 to a 95% chance that it's, it's going to work. Not with this guy. No, not with this guy.
Um, gosh, I was just thinking, uh, it's funny cause I have a buddy in the gym business and his father knew a guy in Canada that, so, uh, do you, you a member of a gym like LA fitness or something? You know how once a year, like you pay your $40 a month, but, and once a year they hit you up for like $59. Mm hmm.
So everybody kind of expects it. Like if you've been there a year or two, they, of course you hit, you get that $59 and you're all like, damn it, what's this? And they go, look, it's an annual fee. It's in your contract. We'd always do it. Oh yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, he has a, he had a buddy, his father had a buddy who ran a gym and, and also I knew his father, he ran the gyms. So in Canada, this guy made millions, but every two or three years,
He said,
but like 75 to 80% of the people did not complain. He was or if you called up and you said, oh yeah, that's our annual fee. And they were good. No, no, the annual fees you took out six months ago and they go, we did hold on. Let me check. Oh, you're right. I'll refund that. Sorry. You got thrown in with the wrong bash and they give him the money back. He said 75% of the people didn't complain. And so he would just keep the money. He said, you know, it was nice. You get an extra, you make an extra half a million dollars for no reason.
You know, it's a nice little perk. Well, he'd been doing it for like, done it four or five times over 10 or 15 years. And at some point there was an investigation and he got in trouble and it was ended up being like $6 million or something outrageous. And he had to do, he got three years. I think he did six months in jail. And then the rest of it, he said, you know, it's Canada. So the rest of it, you know, they put an ankle monitor on you and tell you to,
Go sit in front of your TV and do it in your living room. Uh, and he's a multimillionaire. So you can imagine like that's nothing like he gets to live in this big house. He didn't even have to work. Um, but like, but that's minor, like that's a minor scam. But this is the one I just described is evil. Right. That's what I'm saying. And he probably said for each one of those patients, who knows how much money he saved? Like what was each patient worth to him?
He did all kinds of stuff though, Matt. He would do things like, you know, he would, um, people would bring things like the reps would bring things. He would sell the things that the reps would bring. So like if someone brought diapers or wipes, he would sell those. It's just terrible. He's trying to make that donation. He's a good Christian.
The book is filled with so many stories, but that's one that stuck out for me today. Oh, hey, I have a question. So did you get funding for your documentary or did you just do the documentary? I begged people. So this is the thing. For the doc, I had to fundraise and it's so expensive.
Because the people that I had to hire are real people. They're real filmmakers. Some of them are Emmy nominated, um, um, directors of photography, like, so I had to raise my own. So expensive, so expensive. In the end, did you recoup all that money? No, no. Are you still trying? I'm still trying. No way. No way. I haven't seen him. I haven't seen a royalty check in years. So you, so you,
You went to Netflix and you ended up doing it yourself. Did you try and do a sizzle reel to get funding? Yeah, of course. This is the thing. What's interesting is
What sells, and this is just my opinion, what sells a project is not the project, it's the people and not the people in it, the people around it. You need an Emmy nominated Oscar award winning somebody, whether that's a DP, whether that's a writer, screenwriter,
Somebody so the story can be amazing the footage you have to be outstanding, but if you don't have a name somebody that went to USC film school or NYU film school or Spike Lee student or something you got to have something to get through the noise if you're just a regular old person with a great story Hang it up
You didn't partner with a production company that had already done? I did and that cost me a lot of money too because partner
Pay for their people
Did the film get me known in a lot of circles that I would not otherwise be in? Sure. Do I have any other projects that are on Netflix or that was on Amazon? No. So I'm in a space that I might not be in, but it's more, it's more about marketing yourself than it is about money. Well, yeah, I was going to say that, but now you can say I've had a, you know, my, my documentary was ran on a Netflix is currently on
What would you rather have? Would you rather be able to say that? Would you rather have money in your pocket? But if you do another one, then you're that much further ahead if you did another doc. This is the thing. If I ever do a project again, I gotta walk into it with the funds. There's gotta be a studio attached to me that wants to just
So I think Netflix
Buried by the US government and ignored by the national media, this is the story they don't want you to know.
When Frank Amadeo met with President George W. Bush at the White House to discuss NATO operations in Afghanistan, no one knew that he'd already embezzled nearly $200 million from the federal government, money he intended to use to bankroll his plan to take over the world. From Amadeo's global headquarters in the shadow of Florida's Disney World, with a nearly inexhaustible supply of the Internal Revenue Service's funds,
Amadeo acquired multiple businesses, amassing a mega conglomerate. Driven by his delusions of world conquest, he negotiated the purchase of a squadron of American fighter jets and the controlling interests in a former Soviet ICBM factory. He began work to build the largest private militia on the planet, over one million Africans strong. Simultaneously,
Amadeo hired an international black ops force to orchestrate a coup in the Congo while plotting to take over several small Eastern European countries. The most disturbing part of it all is, had the US government not thwarted his plans, he might have just pulled it off. It's insanity. The bizarre true story of a bipolar megalomaniac's insane plan for total world domination. Available now on Amazon and Audible.
So listen, I'm going to tell you something. This is good for a scam. Um, so I know, and I'm not going to tell you the name of the guy. Um, so I knew a guy, I know a guy that I've dealt with and we've been on, you know, he's actually been on like, I don't want to say we've, we've had some interactions and after we'd had several interactions and talks and you know, um, he, he says, listen,
Like I feel comfortable with you. I'm going to tell you something. I said, okay. So he calls me back. He is, I'm only telling you this because you're the only person that will really understand what I did and appreciate it. He said, cause I can't tell anybody else. I said, okay, what'd you do? So he wrote a book. He said the book did okay. He said, but I didn't get any offers to turn it into a movie. It wasn't optioned. And he said, so, you know, I was upset. It did okay.
So he said, he turned around and he said, the problem is I noticed that people want to option things that have been optioned. Okay. I said, okay. So he made up a fake producer. He gave him a LinkedIn account. He connected him to a bunch of projects. He got gave, got him an, uh, I am BD. What is it called?
He started a website, got him an email, paid for everything, started a little production company. He's like, totally looks legit. And then he did a press release about how this guy had optioned his book. He said, as soon as I optioned it through the website, he was contacted by, it wasn't Warner Brothers, but it was someone like underneath, let's say Sony or something. He created his own buzz.
He was, so now the fake producer was contacted and they said, look, we're interested in, in buying out the option. So he said, they then bought out the option from this fake producer. He said, like, I'm, I'm signing a name. He's signing, I'm signing names. I'm doing this. Like he said, so they ended up buying out the option. And, and when he was telling me that.
He said, he's like, and I'm telling you right now, but they're talking about this actor and this one and this one. And then there was, by the way, then in the Hollywood reporter or near, they then did a newspaper report about how they just bought this from that producer who's nobody. Like he was telling me, like, I looked it up. I was like, this is nuts. And he goes, yeah. And I said, and I remember thinking to myself, the likelihood that movie, that book, it's turned into a movie. Let's face it. They option two, 3000 a year and they never get made.
Three of them get made. So I thought, okay, well I said, yeah, that's pretty cool. And he said, yeah, right now they're auditioning or talking to these actors. Once again, they do that. They'll connect an actor to a film. He said, so and so is writing the screenplay. Okay. Still doesn't matter. I've been in that situation and never went anywhere, but guess what? They started filming the thing about three months ago.
And he said, as soon as it's done, he said, I want to, I'll come on your program and I'll tell the whole story. I said, that's, that's incredible. That's a good one. Right. That's great.
That's a good one. I want to be on when you do it. You've been in that situation. You know the idea of being able to do that, having the forethought. I mean, he created his own buzz. And so when you create the buzz, then the buzz buzzes and other people pick up. So how much time did you get for what you did? I got 26 years.
And four months, but I don't like to say the four months. I typically just say 26 years, because if you say four months, it's like you're whining about it. Matthew. Yeah. How much time did you actually do? Just shy of 13 years. Yeah, I know. But it's the first decades that that's the hardest, you know, last three years just flew by my favorite question of all time that I've ever gotten.
And this is just a narcissist in me is that this one student said, this female student goes, do you feel like she was, do you feel like you got away with it for so long because you're so charming? And I mean, I started laughing so hard. I was like, I was like, I wish I had recorded. I was like, that's the best question ever. But anyway, anyway, but I like writing. So I wake up early and I write and
I write stories and I like crime stories. I don't really like violent crime stories. I have an adversion to violence for some reason, but I like scam stories. I like interesting, unique criminals that did things uniquely or maybe in an ingenious way of some kind. So that's typically what I stick with. In five sentences, can you tell me about your crime? I owned a mortgage company.
took advantage of that system, went on the run for three years, between 15 million and 55 million, semi colon, depending on who you believe. And ultimately, I was caught and sentenced to 26 years. And you did 13? 13. Yes. Now keep in mind, in the federal system, you do 85% of your time. So I cooperated.
I was asked to be interviewed by Dateline NBC News, which I was. I was asked to be interviewed. This is by the US Attorney. I was asked to be interviewed by American Greed, which I was. I was then asked to write an ethics and fraud course.
Which I did, which is taught to the nations of mortgage brokers have to take like four hours of ethics and fraud. I wrote a course that a national one or actually two of the national national schools teach. I also wrote a federal red flags rules course and we then turned around and after a lot of legal battling, you know, we got the government to reduce my sentence by by seven years.
Then, as soon as I came back onto the, you know, after I went to court and got seven years knocked off, came back, I was walking the track with this guy who was actually cooperating in his case. And he was, his name was Ron Wilson. He'd stolen $57 million in the largest Ponzi scheme in South Carolina history. And we were talking and
He was basically explaining to me that he was, he didn't think, he didn't believe that the government was going to give him a reduction in his sentence for his cooperation because they thought he was still hiding money. And at some point after months of just walking around, he told me where he'd hidden a bunch of Ponzi scheme or that he had actually given a couple of people money to keep for him. So what did you do? I happened to be, it's, this is what's so funny. I'd love to say I got on the phone and called my attorney.
But I didn't think the government would give me anything for anything else. They didn't want to give me the first reduction. You know, we had to go to court and fight to get that reduction. So a month or so later, I was ordering my transcripts. I had my lawyer sending me my transcripts for my reduction because I wanted to include it in part of my book. I'm still kind of writing my book and I we were talking on the phone and she just happened to say,
So she's like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to order those. I'm sorry. I forgot, you know, okay. Okay. I said, okay, well, let me know. I said, uh, thank you very much. And she was like, Hey, she was, so what's going on? What's going on? Like this woman never wanted to talk to me. Like they don't want to talk. We're not friends. And I was like, what's going, what do you mean? She was, what's going on in there? Anything happened? I went, no. And she goes, okay, nothing, nothing. And I just was like, it was almost like I was like, I should, you know what? Something happened the other day.
Listen to this. And I told her, um, I told her what happened. She was, well, let me look into it. A week later, I get told by a correctional officer. Hey, you got to go to SIS, which is a department. So I go to this department and they say, they put me on the phone with somebody. They said, Hey, you gotta talk to this guy. He's a secret service agent. And he says, listen, I understand that, you know, we're Ron Wilson hid Ponzi scheme money. And I said, I mean, I do, but it's not a lot. And I said, I need something in writing saying you'll give me a reduction.
And he said, yeah, no problem. So they got me something. You became a whistleblower. You became a vigilante whistleblower. You're a crossover into the vigilante whistleblower category. I was just saying, see, inmates have a different word for it. You're a DLL snitch. Is that what you were? Is that what people thought of you? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But, you know, it was funny because there's all like, you're not, I'm not advertising it, but if somebody
were to say like, because they knew I went to court got my sentence cut, like guys are like, Oh, bro, I heard you cooperate. I'm like, right. And? Well, that's a bullshit. I go over this, bro. I didn't come here to make friends. Like, you're a long time though. You needed some friends, right? Well, look, it's a medium, you might have needed some friends. But I did three years in the medium. And then I went to the low. And honestly, a lot of that is for guys that are in like penitentiaries. And
In the federal system, the bulk of inmates cooperate. You know, I used to, they say like 95% of them cooperated, but 100% are lying about it. So, you know, and I could, I would sit there and you'd be in the unit and guys would sit there and talk about, you know, oh, snitches this, snitches that. And I'd say, well, let's do the math.
And you would sit back and say, there's 150 guys in this unit, 95% cooperated. We know that it's not these 10 guys, because they all went to trial, so they didn't have an option. We know it's not these that you start doing the math, you go, so that means there's five people in this unit that did not cooperate. And of course, there'd be five or six of us standing around, and I go, and I'll bet it's every one of you guys. So, um, yeah, so I, I, I talked to talk to sis, I talked to the Secret Service.
And eventually they indicted that guy, Ron Wilson, and the two people working with him. They recovered half a million dollars. And after once again, government didn't want to give me anything. So we had to fight, we had to file paperwork and fight them in court. And I got another five years knocked off my sentence. By the time I got that five years knocked off my sentence. Now it's 12 years knocked off my sentence. I'm basically leaving. I'd already been locked up seven or eight years or no eight or nine years by that point.
So within a year or two, I was transferred. So it ended up being 12 years and change, you know, hard, how hard did you have a family? Like, how hard was that transition for you? Um, well, one, I'd been on the run for three years. So how is that? I'd essentially abandoned my family anyway. How hard was that? Well,
You know, I had a son, I had a little boy, but I was divorced from his mom and I'm basically a weekend dad. So like every two weeks he's coming over for the weekend and maybe you pick him up on a Wednesday and he's three years old and he doesn't even really know who I am that much. You know, he knows I'm daddy, but mommy has a new boyfriend and that guy's living in the house. So, you know, so I'm more like an older uncle that by picks him up and buys him toys and that's great. Um, so leaving him, you know, it's like, I can't, I'm not taking, I can't take him with me.
I'm not raising him anyway. So that was that was the worst part that and leaving my mother. My dad was always such a just a real jerk. Really was like my dad, you know, like growing up. It's funny, because one of the things I'm always asked is, you know, oh, well, why did you do it? And you know, initially, I always say, well, I did it for the money. But then you write a book.
and then you think deeper and you have to really think about it and you start reading books about how to write books and how to write a memoir and how to and I probably read three of them while I was locked up before I even started writing and and while I was writing and you know you start realizing there's just different techniques and I think ultimately it ended up being like yeah that doesn't make sense because when you when you for
Hi, I'm here to pick up my son Milo. There's no Milo here. Who picked up my son from school? Streaming only on Peacock. I'm gonna need the name of everyone that could have a connection. You don't understand. It was just the five of us. So this was all planned? What did you get it to? I will do whatever it takes to get my son back. I honestly didn't see this coming. These nice people killing each other. All Her Fault, a new series streaming now only on Peacock.
started committing fraud, it was a little bit here, a little bit there, and nobody knew that fraud had been committed. And you got the money, you got 100,000 and then you got 300,000 and it was 500. So you had the money. You didn't need the money now. So why are you still doing it? You know, and it just continued and continued and even when I got called, why didn't you start over? Why didn't you move into your parents' spare room, claim bankruptcy and start your life over again? You could be a car salesman, you could do lots of things. Why didn't you do that? So I really, when it boils down to it, I think it was just the fact that
You know, I was raised by a very narcissistic father who was disappointed, you know, I was not the son he wanted. He's five foot 10, you know, good looking, athletic, smart. Everything came pretty easily to him, you know, made him, you know, you know, had nothing growing up and was now making hundreds of thousands a year. And I'm a kid that has struggling with dyslexia is not great at sports. You know what I'm saying? Like I was not the son he wanted.
or deserve so and can and probably made you feel feel guilty for that every chance you could. Yeah, yeah, it was always a snide comments. But what's great is when I started making money. He really started respecting me like I opened a mortgage like I graduated high I graduated high school with C's graduated college with A's. And then it was still with a degree in fine arts. And I remember, as I was graduating, he said, Yeah, he said, Yeah, you got a degree in fine arts. He said, he said,
You'll be able to, he said, with that degree, you're probably your best course of action nowadays is you'll be drawing sweaty tourists at Disney World to think about moving to Orlando. I was like, wow, it's a four year degree, you know? So anyway, I ended up becoming a mortgage broker, ended up opening my own mortgage company. Now I'm making money. I own real estate. I had like 50 or more than 50 properties within a few years. I'm doing great. So
So yeah, I continued to commit fraud and then eventually I got caught and he was like, wait, wait, wait, when you opened your company, though, there was a period, a period where your company was successful legitimately, right? No. Really? I mean, from the very, you have to understand the very first fraud I ever committed had a very first loan I ever did had fraud in it. And what was that fraud in that loan? You have to understand, I like banked everything on being a mortgage broker.
I had to, I had to go away to be a mortgage broker. I paid the fee. I took the class. I passed. I started working knowing I'm not going to make any money for at least 30 days. And I was working 80 hours a week. I was before there before everybody stayed till eight, nine, 10 o'clock at night. They gave me a key, you know? So, um, by the time I had a couple of loans going, uh, like I'm a month behind on my car payment.
Might have been two. You know, my mortgage is behind like, it's not good. So I really need this loan to close. And it turns out that I brought the loan file into my manager and she opens the file and she's fumbling through the paperwork. And there's one document she pulled and put to the side and she said, and she said, it's a perfect file looks great. But on this on the verification of rent for your borrower,
She was 30 days late on her rent in the last two years. That's a, that's a deal killer. It's over. You're not lending money to somebody who pays their, their rent late. They're going to pay their mortgage late if they paid it all. So I was, I just was like, Oh my God. And I remember she, she, while she was telling me that she pulled out a bottle of white out, you know, the old ones, not the spit, but we want to start. She's like, yeah, so here's what's the problem is.
And then she handed to me, she said, so if I was you, I would wipe that out. I would make a copy of it and stick it back in the file. She says, they'll never catch it. I was like, that's fraud. I could go to jail. And she goes, worst that happens is you get fired. Nobody's calling the FBI. You'll be fine. She says, I do it all the time. It's going to be fine. There's a lot of documents in there. And I was like, wow. So I trusted her. I whited it out.
Put the document back in there, send it to underwriting. Three, four days later, I'm freaking out for three or four days. Like I didn't sleep for four days. So three, four days later, they call me. They say, Hey, we're ready to close. And we close. We closed a few days later. I got a check for like $3,500. I'm thrilled. And then you're back. You're back in business. You're paying your rent. You're paying your car note. Yeah. But the next guy that came in made 52,000 a year. He made 57,000. He could get the loan.
Wow, it's now the fine arts degree seems like a good idea. So now I'm changing the 52 to 57. Yeah, and all the corresponding. So let me ask you this, did the clients know that you were changing making the changes? Not always like sometimes if it was something small, I didn't say anything. Like I'd rather have them deny it. If they were they were going to be asked. Um,
You know, it's interesting because in my categories, you are almost a cross between a righteous perpetrator and an intentional perpetrator. And you're a little bit more righteous than you are intentional, just based on how your story started.
In the book I talk about, righteous perpetrators are people that have power or privilege with inside an organization that use that power to help someone outside. So like, yes, you did receive a fee. So you did, but you also knew that, goodness, 52,000 versus 57, if I just change this, this person can be on their way to home ownership.
This feels minor and like the worst is going to happen is sort of a slap on the wrist, you know, so and you received your commission, but you got to a point where maybe I'm sure that commission, you didn't need it anymore, but you could still help people. Well, I mean, I'm not sure, like initially, like you said, it started small. It was just to get
get the loans closed, get my commission, get the next person, you know, let's, let's get this. You know, this is the thing. It's like, were you a mastermind at some massive, massive million dollar scheme at first? No, no. But did you think that, gosh, if I just change this one little thing, I could help, I can help them greatly and help me a little bit.
Yeah, well, I mean, I obviously you want these people to get into the house, right? And, and I had worked before opening my mortgage company, I'd worked for another mortgage company, and their credit line got shut off at one point.
And I remember getting phone calls from people where they had packed their stuff up in U-Haul vans because like they have to be out of the house and they're calling me like, listen, what you said we were going to close. I'm like, yeah, I thought we were going to close. They, the credit line got shut off. I don't know what's happening. They're looking for new investors. They're like, it didn't typically happen, but they were approving people that with only one outlet to sell those loans. And when that got shut off, they turned around and went to other ones. They didn't have it. So,
I've got people ready to close people's leases that are up. They have to be out of their house or their, their, their apartment or whatever. They're loading up lieu halls because we're being told, give it a few more days in a week. You know, the, we don't know what to tell your customers. So I do remember feeling desperate when people are telling me like, you know, we're, we're staying in their life. I mean, this is their real life. Right. So somehow you've, you've turned from,
mortgage broker to almost a therapist, you know, like, because you're a part of their, their lives, their livelihood, the way they're going to live. I mean, yeah, but I mean, I would love to sit there and say it was, you know, altruistic. But you know, the truth is, well, it got big. I mean, yeah, yeah. Well, once it got away from me at some point, at some point, when I started my own company, now I've got my brokers coming to me. They need their loans to close.
They need a W-2 change or they need a bank statement change or then and then it got to the point where it was like, it's such a pain to change bank statements. Like it's easier if I just create my own bank online and come up with my own bank statements. Logos and everything, processes and all. Right. And then I can then I can just then you they walk in and pretty much everybody that came in the door, if they thought there was going to be an issue with their bank,
They just put down that they worked at or their bank was one of their banks. No, it was Bank of Ebor. There was a place, Ebor city in Tampa. It was Bank of Ebor and they'd still put down their own bank. They just have two banks. And so if we needed, if they didn't have the quite enough money in their bank or they needed reserves or whatever, well, Oh yeah, well I've got an extra 15,000 in Bank of Ebor. Oh, I didn't know. Well, yeah, I can get you the bank statement and they could call the bank, you know,
We had some, we'd answer, put them on hold, tell them, hold on, you know, I'll check. Can you put it back? It wasn't. It was a whole sham. No, it was all a sham. It was all a sham. And that way, there were multiple banks. It was probably like two or three banks. There was three banks, actually. You should let me do the documentary about your life. I was going to say, so what happened was eventually I ended up getting in trouble. Was there a whistleblower? How did you get caught? Well,
Well, I mean, I got in trouble a lot, like the first what made it go from changing W-2s to big. So when I was listening to your, you discuss the different types of perpetrators, right? Or whatever scammers or so I initially I started off, I believe the, you know, as I was just an opportunist, I was just in the right place at the right time, I needed it to happen. But then at some point,
Um, someone who had worked for me, who went, she went and opened up her own company and she got in trouble with the FBI and wore a wire on me. She and her husband, because she knew what I was doing. And what I was doing was one of the ways that I got so many rental properties, my wife and I got so many rental properties is I would buy a property and then I would sell it. I'd renovate it and then sell it to my ex wife.
So there's something called seasoning where if you buy a property, you have to wait a certain period of time before you can refinance it. So instead, if I buy it, fix it up and sell it, I can supersede that with it. Whatever I can, I can get around that. And what happened is when I'm selling it to my wife, we're not telling the lender this, my wife, we tell her just some clients, like she never took my last name specifically for this purpose. So we ended up getting several million dollars worth of property very quickly within about a year or so. All she has to do is collect rent, raise my son,
So we're doing fine. Well, this other, this person that used to work for me ended up telling the FBI so that obviously she could get a reduction in her sentence. And so now I'm, I get in trouble with the FBI. I ended up taking a plea deal. I take three, three years probation, but I can't, I can't own my mortgage company now. So I decided what I was going to do was it's like, that's where it was like, okay, well you could claim bankruptcy.
and start over, right? So I was in the middle of the divorce. Sounds very stressful. Yeah, it was stressful. So I was getting divorced. From the woman that you owned all the properties with. Yes, yes. She didn't want to be married to a felon. Anyway, she sort of was one too.
No, she, I would know that. Listen, definitely. I mean, but it's like she was, she, she had blood on her hands too. Oh no, she absolutely did. But in, and here's what's really funny. What's really funny is my lawyer. When I got my lawyer, here's what he told me. He said, listen, to be honest with you, like how close are you with your wife? And I went, what do you mean? He said, listen, cause I, he knew I was living someone at somewhere else by that point. If that makes sense, like we were already having problems. So he was like, I've been, how close are you with it? Like are you getting divorced? I was like, probably. Yeah. Jeez. He said he was because.
All the loans are in her name. Like he's like, I mean, it's, he said I could, if you were to cooperate and you were to cooperate against some of your mortgage brokers, I could keep you from being indicted at all. She'd be indicted. They'd be indicted. It's like, yeah, listen, this, this, this woman hates my guts already. Like I'm already in danger. Like she could, she's, she could cut you. Like she's an angry person.
And I said, I'm, I'm, and she's raising my son. And I said, now I said, besides, I'm just going to get probation. So I ended up, I paid my lawyer $75,000 to give me probation. And of course, now that I know how the sentencing guidelines work, I realized like, what a shyster I was never facing prison time. Like I could have gotten a public defender for that. So anyway, the point is, is that I plead guilty
And I can't own the mortgage company anymore. So I decided I'm gonna start a development company and start renovating houses. But there's issues with that. To get the money, you need money, obviously, you need capital. And my issue with that was that I was going to start renovating houses, but in the area you work city where I was going to renovate them, which is just outside of Tampa, it's Tampa properties are selling for like,
The average price is like $75,000. So you can buy a house for let's say $40,000, put $20,000 in it, sell it for $100,000. Maybe you make $30,000 or $40,000 or $30,000, more like $25,000 or $30,000. That's it. So I need to be able to get these houses to appraise higher. So that's a problem. Well, the way you determine how much a house, the value of a house is a comparable sales. So I need to be able to compare these houses to houses higher.
And the way you can, so I started dating a girl at a title company and she, and so I asked her, Hey, how can I like, if I buy a house and I sell it for a hundred, if I buy it for 50, how can I record the sale at 200? And she said, Oh, well, you'd have to pay the extra doc stamps and you'd have to switch out the transaction form. And I said, okay. So I do that.
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So I need borrowers that will buy houses for $200,000.
And the problem with that is if you find those borrowers, they can only borrow so many. And the other problem with those people are that they want part of the profit and I don't want to give them part of the profit. So what I decided was I was just going to start making my own borrowers because that's really the go-to move. You create fictitious people. Yeah, synthetic identities. I figured out how to get social security to issue social security numbers to children that don't exist.
Right. So I make a fake birth certificate for like a, an eight month old girl. And then I go into social security and I say, here's my birth certificate and here's my shot record. Cause if the kids over 12 months old, you have to actually show up with it with the baby. Well, I don't have a baby to show up with it's 11 or 13 or 14 months old. So, but if you just show up with a shot record and the birth certificate, you're good. So I do that and I start getting these people and
that you probably well, you're not a psychiatrist. So I was gonna say this is probably okay. So I was gonna say I named the people not all but most of them were names like Michael White, James Redd, Lee Black,
Brandon green, William blue. Yeah. Common names is somebody might actually be named that. No, no. Like the thing about the last names, black, red, white, green. Yeah. So there was a movie called from Quentin Tarantino called reservoir dogs. And he gave everybody names like that. Mr. Pink, Mr. Black, Mr. I love that movie. So, you know, I started naming these characters, those names, I got them all through three secure credit cards.
made the payments for six months. And after six months, they have 750 credit scores. Okay, I take it back. You are not a righteous perpetrator. Right. It evolved like I knew the credit system. I knew how these things worked. I knew I could take advantage of that system. You know, what's interesting is how easy it is to do. Yeah, once you're kind of in the system, and if you can poke around and figure, especially if you're in a position where, where you can learn through trial and error,
Right. So every time I made a mistake, I learned a little bit more, a little bit more. And I was able to, to if, if a, if a bank blamed. So if a bank found out about it and came to me and said, this is what we just found out. I'd say, are you serious? You're telling me my customer sent me that. And the customer you created. Yes. No, well, no, I'm saying if it was a real customer at the old, cause I learned most of this while I was a mortgage broker.
Okay, changing their documents. So if they caught something, I'd be like, you're telling me my, you're telling me my customer gave me a fake W two, he seemed so honest. And I said, Well, I'm not doing that loan for him. Hey, by the way, how'd you figure that out? And they said, Oh, well, it turns out this really? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Then I'd alter it and send it to another lender. And then it goes through and they close the loan. I feel bad. So what happens?
Is, um, I start creating these fake people. I raised the value. I start buying these houses for 40 and 50,000, um, recording the values of the houses at 200 to 20, whatever, one 90 to 30 to 50. And so the whole area raises up through the roof and my borrowers, each borrower buys five, sometimes six houses, refinances those houses after a month or so pulls out 150,000, you know,
100, 150,000, whatever the appraisal came in at, like 80, 95%, 90%. And so once each one of them got to around a million, 1.1 million, 1.2 million, I'd make the payments, of course, then I just stopped paying. And the houses would go into foreclosure and the bank would take the house back and the bank would send out an appraiser to say, Hey, how much is this house worth? And the appraiser would once again say it's worth 220,000.
And they put it on the market and it wouldn't sell. And then they lower the price. Three months later, they lower the price again. Three months later, they lower it again. And eventually they'd end up selling it for $70,000 or 50,000 or whatever. And they'd lose a hundred and something thousand. They'd say, man, that's crazy. I can't believe how off we were on that. That's yeah, that happened. So they didn't know there was a scam that had been committed. And you had already pulled the equity, pulled the money out. Oh, all the money's gone.
No, they owe the bank $180,000, $210,000, and the bank just takes the loss because that does happen. People buy houses for $200,000 and then they foreclose on them and they resell the house and sometimes they get $110,000, sometimes they get $140,000. You know, by the time the house is taken back, it's been trashed. And after a year, the windows are knocked out, someone stole the copper, the AC doesn't work, and so they sell the house at an extreme loss.
The banks never, they never thought fraud. It's now been a year or two since they've gotten these, or a year or so, since they got these documents, there's no way to verify anything. And if they did look into it, like if they started, they obviously sent letters or they'd send somebody by to try and serve you with paperwork for the foreclosure, I would, I would
Type up a letter, type up an article. I take an article from the newspaper and I'd insert my borrower's name into the article saying like there was a 12 car pile up on I-75 and someone was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital and I put Mr. Black in there.
And then I'd write a letter from Mr. Black's sister saying, my brother was in a horrible accident. He's currently in a coma. The doctors say this is this is too much. I don't believe you did. This is too. You did all this. Listen, look, you look it up. The amount of articles that are out there. They even talk about Mr. Black, Mr. Green. They're like they talk to investigators for the bank and the investigator for the bank says, listen, I couldn't tell if this guy was alive or dead. His
How long did this last for you? Did you live like you borrowed $11 million? No, I never did because I'm not really a flashy person.
You don't have a Porsche or a Lamborghini like I had a expensive Audi sports car. I actually lived in an area called Tampa Heights, which was kind of an up and coming area was being kind of, you know, urban renewal kind of thing, you know, and I owned a bunch of houses in that area. I had almost every house on my block and was renovating them. So, but the project was, you know, a mile, two miles away and
So I didn't live super flash. I traveled. I had money. I can do whatever I wanted, but you know, I don't need to, I'm not living in a $2 million house. I'm not trying. I'm on federal probation. I'm not trying to, I wasn't trying to, but you're on federal probation still doing this. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny too. Cause like my probation, I'll shirt up in my office one time and I had, I'm telling you, I must've had seven or eight phones, cell phones on the credenza behind my desk.
Like, and I just was thinking, like, this guy's got to ask some questions here. Like that's not normal. Like that he's got to say, what's with these phones? But he never did. He just, Hey, what's going on? I don't think they're trained to look for fraud. How do you, how are you now? How are you on the straight and narrow now? Why now? Um, you know, I, I got 26 years. Like, like, first of all, there's two things. One, I got 26 years.
Listen, I even tell you about going on the run for three years. But let's we don't want to get a question. Have you ever did you ever do any insurance fraud? Yes, but it was minor like these are like break ins and this was like, these are my age to break in. Well, one time only because I didn't have insurance when I got broken into. So then I went out and got homeowners insurance and I waited about a month and a half and then I called the police and said I got broken into.
And then I maximize the policy. You know how they have policy limits? Like people think, Oh, you tell them $40,000 or you might get 10. Why? Cause you said that was 40,000 in for, for furniture. They only pay 10 for furniture. So I went through the policy and I said, okay, there's jewelry is up to $10,000. Great. $9,000. Here's the receipts. Did you create the receipts too? I would create receipts or something. You just go and get receipts. Like you can go and
walking if you're walking out of Home Depot, or you're walking out of people throw their receipts away like it remember Circuit City? You know, you grab receipts from Circuit City, you have friends that have receipts, you know, that own stores, friend of a friend. But the receipt has to match up with the date, at least the date. Yeah, but it's obviously it's going to match up with a date. And they're not backtracking any of this stuff. And most of the time, it's just photographs.
I'm doing this project for the Coalition Against Insurance Fraud, and I've been interviewing people that have committed insurance fraud. And I was just curious, just based on everything that you were saying, I was thinking he must have done an insurance fraud scheme. You understand that a lot of these things, title insurance paid off too. So that was insurance.
And I, it's not normal. The title fraud that I've committed was, is, is more than your average fraud, right? Like it's a different type of fraud. But it still falls under an insurance category. Yes. Well, for instance, you're buying a house. So you own the house. Let's say I own a house and I own a house and
On Monday, they do the title search. So they search the title, but it's not going to close till Friday. So I know it was searched. I know it came back on Monday. Call the, you know, you call the title insurance company and say, Hey, listen, did you, when'd you get the title policy back? Oh, we got it back yesterday. Oh, okay. Thanks. You immediately go and record a lien on the property for a new roof and the windows and whatever. It's $25,000. So
Then the house closes on Friday. You wait a week, you go to the new homeowner and you say, Hey, what's going on? Where's Matt Cox? Oh, he sold us the house. He did. Well, he never paid me this 25,000. He owes me and I have a lien on this property. Who'd you close through? And they go, Oh, we closed through lawyer's title. So he goes to lawyer's title and says, Hey, I did a bunch of work on this house.
And he shows them the $25,000. Then they go and they go, no, we, we searched the house. He said, what are you talking about? I have a lien on it. They go back and search it and go, man, we missed the lien. He recorded it two days after we searched the policy during what's called the gap period. So we owe this guy $25,000. So they have to pay him $25,000. Now they can turn around and call and go to me and try and get the money from me. I said, nah, that guy did horrible work. I'm not paying that guy. And they go, we already paid him. Well, that's here's the thing.
What I learned from dating the girl at the insurance company or at the title company was this, if there's a dispute over the fee, they have to pay it. So they won't sue me because I have a dispute over this guy, but they missed the title and by law they have to pay it. They cannot sue me because there's a dispute. So that's a nice little... You did this? Yeah, I've done that a few times. How much? Do you know how much you did it for? No.
You didn't get caught for it though. No, listen, there's so much stuff I didn't like, they never charged me with credit card fraud. Every one of those people that every one of those identities, which I almost never talk about, they also got probably 50 $60,000 in credit cards. They also got like if I knew I was about to dump the guy, I'd go out and get three or four personal loans.
through Bank of America, Wells Fargo on the synthetic identity. Right. Cause I'm about, I can get another a hundred thousand dollars out of this guy. Like I might've got, I probably got six or 700,000 for the property. I get another a hundred thousand. So how much did you make doing all this net? I don't, I mean, I, you know, I, I feel like I, a lot of that money went to other people. It went back into the properties. So they said it was nine point, they said my mortgage company did 40 million.
But keep in mind that was just basic fraud. There was no real money involved. Like that's money fraudulent loans going to buy houses. So that's not really like money in my pocket. Sure. The other one is after they sold everything, it was $15 million that they said I did. Well, first they said it was like 25. Then we got it down to 15. We argued and then they said, well, there's nine and a half million missing. And then we argued and I got it down to 6 million because they just didn't want to do the paperwork.
So my restitution $6 million. At one point, it was probably legitimately 9.5 million. I'm sorry. Yeah, 9.5 million. You're amazing. You're amazing. I think a lot of it has to do with your upbringing though. Like I think just probably that ongoing emotional abuse you like you were out here you're like guns blazing. I was gonna say it's funny if you read
If you read my book, like there are all these little tiny things that my father, like when someone, they say like, you know, like think back, like what's a story you can tell about your father? Like I don't, all I have, all my stories are like, they're rough and they're not rough in a, in a brutal way. They're rough in a way that at the time I laughed about it and looking back, I'm like, you don't say that to a kid. Like what, like that doesn't, what do you, why would you, you know,
I always remember this and I this because I always remember immediately thinking this because my dad was an alcoholic right but he made he worked for State Farm Insurance and he would get be sober for a year or two get drunk they put them in a rehab go right back to work this happened over and I don't mean like a 10-day rehab we're talking 45 days 30 days 90 days like outrageous one time they put our whole family in rehab
We had to all go to Alan on like twice a week, we're going to these Alan on meetings is like, why have I got to keep him sober? So what happened was I remember one time we were dry, we were he and I were driving in his BMW. And I have my little eyes on shirt on he's in a suit and tie, we're going to movie, you know, our movie day, right? Like we would go to go see a movie.
And really, we never really would see a movie. He would drop me off and come back like four or five hours later. So but we're on our way. And I remember looking over at this car that was next to us. And it was a it was a beat up old Nova that was rusted out a bunch of little kids in the back seat. Mom and dad are in the front. And just the kids in the back because they just look filthy. They look filthy. Their clothes are messed up. The cars rusted out.
And I remember being at a stop sign and looking over at these kids and they're staring at, at me through the window. And I just remember thinking, like just being like a shame that we had money and like, I felt bad for them. I remember looking down and my dad instinctively noticed something was wrong. And he looked over at me and he looked over at those kids and he looked at me and he goes, Hey, I was like, yes sir. And he goes, he goes, I wonder what the poor are doing today.
And I just went and then he went and he's kind of chuckled and laughed. And I remember thinking, wow, like I like, and my, my thought, what I always remember from that is this, is that it was always no matter what you had to do, no matter how you had to behave, it was always better to be driving the BMW. And, and that's how he was. He was like, he made a lot of money for a lot of people. State Farm should have fired him 10 times.
They never did. He was always the top 10 producing managers in the nation, always won the trips, always taught the classes. Whenever they had the big wigs come to the head office, they always called him in. They asked him to do training seminars. But every two years we got to throw this guy in a rehab. But that's okay. It's okay.
He showed up one time, showed up one time and talked in front of a thousand people drunk. They had to practically pull them off stage, put them in rehab, get them back to work. You could behave however you want. Exactly. As long as you make everybody a ton of money. And I just remember thinking that. I remember my mom said one time, I remember asking her because God they used to fight all the time, all the time.
And I mean, and I mean fights like where she'd get all the kids, put them in a car and drive and leave for a couple of days, come back. And I remember thinking, why, like, are you that in love with him that worse? You know, we're going back. And she said, you know, he's a good provider. You know, so it was like, it was like both of them, you know, I'm saying like they need, they need it. She had four kids. What's she going to do? So, yeah, I mean, I just, that's just how
I grew up. Hey, if you liked the video, do me a favor and hit the subscribe button, share the video and, uh, you know, leave me a comment in the comment section and I try and respond to as many comments as I possibly can. Uh, also I'm going to leave the book link for fool me once, which is going to be in the description. I'll leave the link to the book and any other social media links for, uh, Kelly Pope, if you want to get in touch with her.
It started with a scream inside a quiet Maryland home. A mother trying to protect the family dog and her son in the grip of a violent hallucinogenic rage. By the time it was over, she was dead, and he claimed LSD made him do it. His name, David Minor IV, and we talked to him. Listen to Invisible Choir every other week as we uncover the most haunting true crimes you've never heard of.
Available wherever you get your podcasts.
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"text": " Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy. They work with many insurance companies and most people with insurance pay zero dollars for therapy or psychiatry. You can change your provider for free. This helps you find the licensed therapist who fits your needs the best. Therapy can be costly, but part of the mission of Talkspace is to provide quality care that is accessible and affordable whether or not you are insured. Talkspace makes getting the help you need easy. Let me tell you more about why I love Talkspace."
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"text": " Listen to Invisible Choir every other week as we uncover the most haunting true crimes you've never heard of. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jean Chatsky. You may know me as the host of the Her Money podcast or the financial editor of NBC's Today Show for 25 years."
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"text": " Today I'd personally like to invite you to join my women-led investing club. It's called Investing Fix with two X's. We walk through current market trends, teach investing fundamentals, and build a real portfolio together."
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"text": " Plus your first month is absolutely free. So come check us out at investingfix.com. We'd love to have you. It's known as a large municipal fraud in US history. So look at Rita and you're sort of like, wow, you live like a queen for 20 years and served eight. One may argue that crime does pay. So the reason why he was diluting medication and making it spread further was two things."
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"text": " He had a large bill from the IRS that he wanted to pay and record show was around half a million dollars. And then he wanted to make a million dollar donation to his church. So he wanted to expand his gross margin. He wanted to make a million dollar donation to the church. This guy made millions, but every two or three years he would hit everybody across the board for like $39."
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"text": " This guy's a multimillionaire. He's got like 20 gyms. He's got, you know, he lives in a, in a $4 million house. Like he's filthy rich. And this is just the narcissist in me is that this one student said, this female student goes, do you feel like she's, do you feel like you got away with it for so long because you're so charming? And I mean, I started laughing so hard. I was like, be honest with you. Like how close are you with your wife?"
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"text": " And I went, what do you mean? He said, listen, he was because all the loans are in her name. Mr. Black's sister saying my brother was in a horrible accident. He's currently in a coma. The doctors say this is this is too much. I don't believe you did. This is too. You did all this. And I waited about a month and a half and then I called the police and said I got broke into and then"
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"text": " Hey, this is Matt Cox and I'm going to be interviewing Kelly Pope and she is the author of a book about con men called Fool Me Once. And we're going to be talking about the book and talking about a few different con men and scams and that sort of thing. So check out the interview. What's going on? Tell me about yourself."
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"text": " Well, I am an accounting professor. I'm a filmmaker. And now, well, not now, I've been an author, but I have a new book out, which is why we're talking. And this is my sample copy. But this is it called Fool Me Once."
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"text": " Scam stories and secrets from the trillion-dollar fraud industry so you can see all of my notes that I take every time I read it. That is my latest project. I'm super excited. I heard in your intro you said it's about conmen. It's about more than that though."
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"text": " What else is it about? The first part of the book is about perpetrators, which is where you're talking about. But then the second part or the middle part is about victims. And then the last part is about whistleblowers. So I don't know how you feel about whistleblowers. You may hate them, but there's a whole lot of whistleblowers. I'm a big fan. There's a whole section devoted to whistleblowers. And I created a game called the fully once fraud experience. And so when you go through it,"
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"text": " It'll tell you what type of perpetrator you would be if you were ever to be one and what type of whistleblower would you be if you were ever to be one. So in the book I talk about that there are three types of perpetrators. All perpetrators are not the same. Intentional perpetrators, accidental perpetrators, and righteous perpetrators. Now Matthew, I've read a lot about you and heard a lot about you. I'm sorry to say"
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"text": " You were definitely or your past life, you were definitely an intentional perpetrator. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there was that was your whole goal. Wasn't an accident. Wasn't an accident. I deposited that that that check into my own account. Wasn't"
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"text": " So, but and what I wanted to do was to offer a new way of thinking because there are people that are following the boss's orders or people that are utilizing their internal press, internal resources to help someone help someone."
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"text": " outside of the company. And so what I wanted people to understand is everyone is not in it for just personal gain. And so I don't think that we should loop everybody together. And so that's what the whole perpetrator section is about. So the game tells you based on going through these various scenarios, what type of perpetrator are you actually? So it'd be interesting to see how you play it and see if you actually are an intentional perpetrator. Maybe, just maybe, you might be a righteous perpetrator."
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"text": " Something tells me you could easily end up, right? I could manipulate my answers to make it look that way."
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"text": " Yeah, I don't think so. What I wanted to do was to stop, allow people to think that, yeah, you know, you might do something too. Because a lot of times we're so quick to say, oh, look at them. That's what they do. But actually, when we started talking about fraud, it's what we all do. Just the other day, you did a presentation with my students. And it was interesting to see how they were mesmerized."
},
{
"end_time": 460.845,
"index": 19,
"start_time": 438.746,
"text": " You were a little upset when they were saying, yeah, that makes sense. I would do that. You were like, I wasn't expecting them to say that. But you know, when you were talking about how you would change or increase someone's"
},
{
"end_time": 481.561,
"index": 20,
"start_time": 461.169,
"text": " I'm"
},
{
"end_time": 509.275,
"index": 21,
"start_time": 481.561,
"text": " Yeah, so you know it's what I wanted to do with the book is Allow people to look at Be a little bit more self-reflective, you know Because a lot of us agree to a lot of things as long as we think we won't get caught and we'll do right So that was um, so those the perpetrator chapter. So there's three chapters devoted to them And then you know, yes, just because of your background. I'm really curious. What do you think about whistleblowers? You do like them"
},
{
"end_time": 535.026,
"index": 22,
"start_time": 509.616,
"text": " Yeah, I don't have a problem like like typically whistleblowers do stuff like some companies overbilling the government or some company is cheating its customers in some way or lying to the public or something. It's like, why would someone have a problem with those people doing the right thing? For instance, look at the guy with with"
},
{
"end_time": 564.94,
"index": 23,
"start_time": 535.52,
"text": " Gosh, he did the Ponzi scheme, um, Bernie Madoff with Bernie Madoff. That guy spent four or five years begging the authorities to listen to him. I mean, I'm sorry to listen to him and not really did for a long time. He went in and had presentations and they just shrugged it off and laugh. And it was like, no, no, you can say, Oh, you should have minded those own business. He, there were thousands of people that lost their life savings."
},
{
"end_time": 583.882,
"index": 24,
"start_time": 565.435,
"text": " that could have been saved if they'd listened to him the very first time or done even a cursory investigation and looked into it. They could have saved thousands of people who are now living with their kids or had to sell their house who lost everything because this guy was just trying to do the right thing."
},
{
"end_time": 607.125,
"index": 25,
"start_time": 584.036,
"text": " So what tends to happen is when someone comes forward, you turn the spotlight on them and sort of pick their life apart to realize, to try to figure out why they shouldn't be credible, and that shouldn't happen. So in the section of the book about whistleblowers, I come up with three types. There's an accidental whistleblower. You can either be a noble whistleblower, or you could be a vigilante whistleblower. Now, vigilante whistleblowers"
},
{
"end_time": 630.111,
"index": 26,
"start_time": 607.961,
"text": " They don't mind their business at all. You know, they're just sort of the person. Imagine the older lady that's sitting in front of the window watching to see if anybody's speeding down the street and she'll take down your license plate number and call the call the police and say, this person was speeding. You need to contact them. That's sort of the vigilante. We need all of them kind of like a Karen."
},
{
"end_time": 653.029,
"index": 27,
"start_time": 631.169,
"text": " What I wanted to do with the book was really help people figure out where they fit in this sort of the"
},
{
"end_time": 683.643,
"index": 28,
"start_time": 653.643,
"text": " industrial fraud complex. And so in the middle section of the book is about victims. And so I break those into innocent bystanders and organizational targets. And all of this was inspired. I don't even know if we talked about my documentary, but I have a documentary. And so all of this was it was inspired by my documentary, which is called All the Queen's Horses, which chronicles the largest municipal fraud in U.S. history. Oh, my gosh. I totally the the the woman who was doing the books."
},
{
"end_time": 713.183,
"index": 29,
"start_time": 683.643,
"text": " for that for that county and she had the horses. Yes. Oh wow. That's my documentary. Okay II did not yet. She was she was she was telling everybody they gotta cut back. They have to cut back. She's stealing the whole time. Yes. We don't have enough money. Yes. So that so that was really the inspiration. So I did the documentary steal 53.7"
},
{
"end_time": 731.067,
"index": 30,
"start_time": 713.558,
"text": " Oh, over 20. They didn't raise the that raise the taxes over multiple borrow more money, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that so a Rita Cronwell was my inspiration because she was an intentional perpetrator, the whistleblower."
},
{
"end_time": 759.531,
"index": 31,
"start_time": 732.022,
"text": " was a woman by the name of Kathy Swanson. And Kathy was what I categorize as an accidental whistleblower. She never suspected her boss doing anything. She just sort of stumbled upon it. And then the residents of Dixon, Illinois are innocent bystanders. And then the town of Dixon is an organizational target. So that's sort of how the documentary really inspired the work in the book. And so throughout the whole book, you learn more about the documentary. And so that story"
},
{
"end_time": 788.729,
"index": 32,
"start_time": 759.531,
"text": " of what I learned doing the film is sort of throughout the entire book. So watch the film, then read the book. Where is the film or where it lives on Amazon Prime? So it's there now so you can find it. OK, that they they bought the rights or they OK, it's streamed on Netflix for a year from 2018 to 2019. And then after my streaming period was up and went over to Amazon, I think I must. I don't know where I saw I saw it."
},
{
"end_time": 817.602,
"index": 33,
"start_time": 789.36,
"text": " trying to think of where I must have seen it on on on Netflix because I just got Amazon. So I must have seen it on Netflix when it came out. Yeah. And I actually had spoken. The only reason I knew about it was someone contacted me and that person was in communication with her in federal prison and was trying to get her to write like a memoir."
},
{
"end_time": 834.258,
"index": 34,
"start_time": 818.882,
"text": " You've found a calling and a voice for yourself in all of this."
},
{
"end_time": 850.964,
"index": 35,
"start_time": 834.718,
"text": " And so a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people, Rita has value if she would recognize her value. She does. I mean, think about all of the municipalities she could speak at or do consultant services for and who would listen to her. I mean, they really would."
},
{
"end_time": 880.469,
"index": 36,
"start_time": 850.964,
"text": " So I think she's missing a huge opportunity. You know, once you get through the hate, because you're going to have hate, but everybody has hate. I mean, even if you don't commit a crime, you have hate. People hate me, you know, for whatever reason. So you're always going to have that. So I think that she's missing, she's missed a golden opportunity to actually help other municipalities and towns because they would listen to her. You know, they really would. So here's the thing."
},
{
"end_time": 906.664,
"index": 37,
"start_time": 880.691,
"text": " She got 19 years and seven months in federal prison, but get this, something called COVID happened. And when COVID happened, she got out early. She got out early. She only served about eight years. So she got out in 2021 because of COVID. If there were no COVID, she would be still in federal prison right now, but she got out. And she's by the way, when they, you know, that, that ends, uh, at the end of this month, the mandate, but they don't have to go back."
},
{
"end_time": 936.169,
"index": 38,
"start_time": 907.005,
"text": " But they're not going back. I was going to say, I was always like, Oh, well, they're going to pull them all back. No. And so that's the thing. I think, um, under the Trump administration, they might have had to go back, but the Biden administration decided, no, they could stay, but maybe Trump would have sent them back. I don't know. You know, and I can like, so here's the problem, even though, well, first of all, the offenders that got out were not, you know, horribly violent offenders. They need to be watched."
},
{
"end_time": 953.865,
"index": 39,
"start_time": 937.278,
"text": " So I get letting these people out because they're just not that much of a huge danger to society, as long as they're monitored. But, you know, like if you've got 10 years to do, but usually some of these sentences are outrageous to begin with. So I'm kind of conflicted."
},
{
"end_time": 982.688,
"index": 40,
"start_time": 953.933,
"text": " Yeah, for sure, for sure. And you know, the interesting thing about Rita's case is because she was, she's, she's an icon because she's the largest municipal fraudster in US history. So I think it sends a bad message when the icon does less time. That's the problem. If she had just been an embezzler and let's say she walked off of 20 million or 15 million and she got off, maybe people wouldn't have even known about it. But when she got released, that made news because"
},
{
"end_time": 995.862,
"index": 41,
"start_time": 982.688,
"text": " even still to this date she's the largest it's known as a large municipal fraud in US history so that person can't get out even if she was over sentenced which is what I talk about towards the end of the book because"
},
{
"end_time": 1022.585,
"index": 42,
"start_time": 996.357,
"text": " I talked to some people that do research in sentencing. It's a sentencing guidelines expert and I interviewed him for the book and looking at Rita's case and looking at other people that were sentenced in her same class around the same time with the same amount of money stolen. It looks as though she was over sentenced. So that being said, she actually served"
},
{
"end_time": 1051.578,
"index": 43,
"start_time": 1022.79,
"text": " It started with a scream inside a quiet Maryland home, a mother trying to protect the family dog and her son in the grip of a violent hallucinogenic rage. By the time it was over, she was dead, and he claimed LSD made him do it."
},
{
"end_time": 1064.991,
"index": 44,
"start_time": 1052.432,
"text": " His name, David Minor IV, and we talk to him. Listen to Invisible Choir every other week as we uncover the most haunting true crimes you've never heard of, available wherever you get your podcasts."
},
{
"end_time": 1094.445,
"index": 45,
"start_time": 1073.319,
"text": " Her getting out sent a very mixed message, you know, that age old question, does crime pay? And you look at Rita and you're sort of like, wow, you live like a queen for 20 years and served eight. One may argue that crime does pay. Yeah, she'll probably end up, she'll probably end her, you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 1124.957,
"index": 46,
"start_time": 1095.009,
"text": " in the"
},
{
"end_time": 1150.589,
"index": 47,
"start_time": 1125.708,
"text": " Maybe the brother owns his house or, you know, you're, you can keep your, depending on where you live, you can keep your expenses relatively low. Yeah. Yeah. She's clever. Obviously she's clever. She's already thinking of ways to get around, you know, her restitution. And once it's final that she's not going back, which it probably obviously is, and she gets a regular job."
},
{
"end_time": 1177.978,
"index": 48,
"start_time": 1151.049,
"text": " Somebody will hire her. Yeah. I mean, somebody will hire her. I mean, you know, someone and she can do, there are things she can still do, but just imagine if she were willing to create a platform, like a podcast. I mean, she could be, but I can tell you from being in prison with other guys that have committed fraud night, I was the only person that was in prison thinking when I get out, like I'm,"
},
{
"end_time": 1206.8,
"index": 49,
"start_time": 1178.575,
"text": " I'm going to figure out a way to make this work for me, you know, doing the things that I want to do in life. I mean, I'm not going to hide like everybody else was these guys are talking about changing their name. They're talking about spinning it. They're talking about maybe, you know, getting an article written that says that makes it sound more like it's a mistake that they were they were erroneously, you know, prosecuted and that it was there was these other guys and they got thrown in there, you know, whatever."
},
{
"end_time": 1235.179,
"index": 50,
"start_time": 1207.21,
"text": " And it was always just like, you know, man, you're going to be running from this the rest of your life. Like you can't, it's part of you. So, you know, you can either embrace it and find out the good in it or you can run from it. And it's, and it's hard to run from, you know, it really is. Especially now it wouldn't have been 30 years ago. Yeah. You could get out, moved to another city, start over and nobody ever has a clue. But now. Yeah. I used to always, I used to always say, I said, listen, man, everybody likes a comeback story. Yeah. You know, what's the problem? Like,"
},
{
"end_time": 1260.538,
"index": 51,
"start_time": 1235.845,
"text": " Pierre Rossini, in the 1990s, was a 20-something year old Los Angeles-based drug trafficker of ecstasy and ice. He and his associates drove luxury European supercars, lived in Beverly Hills penthouses, and dated Playboy models while dodging federal indictments."
},
{
"end_time": 1290.759,
"index": 52,
"start_time": 1261.408,
"text": " Two FBI officers with the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force entered the picture. Dirty agents willing to fix cases and identify informants. Suddenly, two of Racini's associates, confidential informants working with federal law enforcement, were murdered. Everyone pointed to Racini. As his co-defendants prepared for trial, U.S. Attorney Robert Mueller sat down to debrief Racini at Leavenworth Penitentiary with another story"
},
{
"end_time": 1313.729,
"index": 53,
"start_time": 1291.852,
"text": " A tale of FBI corruption and complicity in murder. You see, Pierre Racine knew something that no one else knew. The truth. And Robert Mueller and the federal government have been covering it up to this very day. The devil exposed. A twisted tale of drug trafficking, corruption and murder in the city of Angeles."
},
{
"end_time": 1336.783,
"index": 54,
"start_time": 1314.599,
"text": " available on Amazon and Audible. So something sometimes people ask me is what's my favorite story and so I always start with All the Queen's Horses because I did the documentary about it. It sort of goes with me and has been with me for such a long time but there's other stories that are throughout the book. So one of the things that I like to tell people"
},
{
"end_time": 1366.664,
"index": 55,
"start_time": 1337.21,
"text": " Although I'm a professor, the book is not a textbook. It's story-driven, character-driven, and it's a fun read. I wish I had met you a year ago because you would have been in it. You would have been great. So yeah, I have to figure out how to incorporate an interview with you some kind of way. You're in Florida, right? Yeah. Tampa? Tampa, Florida. Okay. All right. I might have to take a team down there and interview you one day. Where are you located? Chicago."
},
{
"end_time": 1376.22,
"index": 56,
"start_time": 1367.79,
"text": " Yeah, well, I mean, are you thinking about doing another documentary like that one?"
},
{
"end_time": 1401.988,
"index": 57,
"start_time": 1376.459,
"text": " You know, what I'm doing right now is I want to do like a video series that goes with the book. So I want to talk to some intentional perpetrators, some righteous perpetrators, and some, I'm sorry, intentional perpetrators, accidental perpetrators, and righteous perpetrators. I want to talk to those three and sort of show just snippets when I'm talking to people."
},
{
"end_time": 1431.698,
"index": 58,
"start_time": 1401.988,
"text": " Yeah, so that's it. I don't know if I'll ever do another documentary again. You actually have... That's kind of a documentary. Yeah, sort of. A little short. You're just breaking it into episodes. Yeah, yeah. It's a little short. But your story, I find, you have so many layers. Because what I find fascinating, you are fascinating, don't get me wrong. But what's also interesting about your story is the complacency that people have"
},
{
"end_time": 1457.381,
"index": 59,
"start_time": 1432.005,
"text": " when you share the details of what you were doing, because when we want something, we will forget all rules to get what we want. So if I wanted a loan for my business, or if I wanted a house, and I needed this loan, and good grief, I fell in love with this house, and it's $600,000, and I only qualify for $400,000, but there's this person that can help me get what I want, and I know I can pay for it."
},
{
"end_time": 1485.691,
"index": 60,
"start_time": 1457.381,
"text": " I might be like, hey, Matt, a lot of us would be that way. I was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday, and she's always talking about how she doesn't have enough money, doesn't have enough money, what she complains about all the time. Yet, she qualified for a $700,000 house. And I said, how? How did you qualify for a $700,000 house? If you're struggling to pay your rent now,"
},
{
"end_time": 1498.609,
"index": 61,
"start_time": 1485.998,
"text": " How are you going to double that and not struggle? She's like, I don't know, but I qualify for it. So I thought about you. I was thinking, yeah, something's not right. Like usually you qualify for"
},
{
"end_time": 1522.671,
"index": 62,
"start_time": 1499.957,
"text": " for less than you think. You know what I'm saying? You're looking for 200,000. And like something that you explained to my students is even with your debt to income ratio, right? That is a real thing. I mean, between your credit score and those two things, you know, they have to talk and make sense. So even if she has superb credit,"
},
{
"end_time": 1550.964,
"index": 63,
"start_time": 1523.336,
"text": " and low debt, she still have to have cash flow. So when she told me she qualified for that much, I'm like, yeah, is there something shady going on here? That's what I thought about. Cause I knew your case. Yeah, you gotta, yeah. Well, the big problem is a lot of people, oh, I qualify for it or I want to, I'll figure a way out. Figuring a way out doesn't mean you qualify like that. I can afford it. You think you can afford it. Like if one or two things go wrong,"
},
{
"end_time": 1556.698,
"index": 64,
"start_time": 1551.152,
"text": " and you're going into the hole, then you don't qualify for it because all that's taken into consideration."
},
{
"end_time": 1584.633,
"index": 65,
"start_time": 1556.988,
"text": " And the tough thing about what you're seeing in our economy is with all these layoffs is that package doesn't get you that far. So when you think about these types of ethical scenarios people find themselves in or what they're willing to agree to, a lot more of us are willing to agree to doing some shady stuff than we think because of just tension, life tension and pressure. All your students were, it's a few points."
},
{
"end_time": 1609.155,
"index": 66,
"start_time": 1586.578,
"text": " What about like, did you say like, if you could qualify, but you know, you couldn't quite qualify, you didn't have enough money, but the guy you were working with was willing to alter some things and they were kind of like, yeah, I don't see that. It's a big deal. Well, I mean, all of that's fraud. Yeah, but they saw nothing wrong with it because when we want something,"
},
{
"end_time": 1616.647,
"index": 67,
"start_time": 1609.889,
"text": " All bets are off all rules go out the window. I want this. How can I get it? And so I think that that's why"
},
{
"end_time": 1647.125,
"index": 68,
"start_time": 1617.875,
"text": " Stories and cases like yours are so powerful because at least right now, it gave them something to think about. Like they'll never forget hearing you. They never will forget that. I mean, that second class that you spoke to, they rarely, they don't stay after class. They were after class talking about you. Just how, wow. Like they were just 15 minutes after class. They were just like, I mean, he was amazing. And they were like, listen, if I'm going to commit fraud,"
},
{
"end_time": 1674.616,
"index": 69,
"start_time": 1647.261,
"text": " I'm not going to do it, but if I were, that's how I'm going to do it. I'm going to live my life. That's what they heard from you. Well, yeah, I know. I know that wasn't what you were. That wasn't your intention. It wasn't my intention. However, it was, it was interesting. That was very interesting. But the first class had a lot more questions. Well, once, once they started getting, once they started getting going, the second one, once you prodded them a little bit, they started"
},
{
"end_time": 1688.865,
"index": 70,
"start_time": 1675.435,
"text": " That's a good point. Absolutely."
},
{
"end_time": 1712.142,
"index": 71,
"start_time": 1689.155,
"text": " How'd you do this? I don't like that. But you know what was also fascinating when you talked about how you learned because you know some one student asked were you just a genius and you were like well you know I learned from people so like you would find out okay how'd y'all figure this out my client did this how'd you figure this out"
},
{
"end_time": 1741.067,
"index": 72,
"start_time": 1712.654,
"text": " And so that was interesting too, because you don't realize how much you disclose about your process, which is an internal control weakness in itself. And a lot of people don't think about that. They don't think about when you call a bank or you call any place and you're like, tell me about the process again. How did that happen? And people are willing to share, right? That's an internal control weakness as well. Well, I was going to say, um,"
},
{
"end_time": 1770.111,
"index": 73,
"start_time": 1741.476,
"text": " for instance, me being the broker between the customer and underwriting, you know, when I was like, how did you even catch this? And they go, well, like they think we're on the same team. Listen to what we did. What'd you do? And that's, they're telling me how they caught my customer. They're actually telling me how to beat their system. And you know, something else that that is to our detriment is we're all very trusting. And so they initially, because you, you, um,"
},
{
"end_time": 1798.985,
"index": 74,
"start_time": 1770.759,
"text": " You have an armor of trust. And something we didn't talk about in class yesterday was privilege. And I think there's a privilege that you have that you were able to move through the system being a Caucasian male. You know, people automatically trust you. I have the three C's going for me that I was I said I'm Caucasian. I'm confident and I'm clean cut."
},
{
"end_time": 1827.585,
"index": 75,
"start_time": 1799.94,
"text": " They would and and you know, it's like so you don't you just don't expect it like especially when I know What they're looking for they're looking for me to get nervous and try and leave they're looking like there's all these things I know like it's I'd be at the teller and they'd say oh well I have to call oh, there's something's up with the account I've got a call and get authorization and I go hi and I just lean there and I look around and look at the"
},
{
"end_time": 1858.166,
"index": 76,
"start_time": 1828.285,
"text": " You know, look, I'm looking at the cameras and looking around and like they're expecting me to leave or be nervous. I'm not nervous. I opened the account. I know what you're going to find. I know it's a new account. I know I'm removing over $3,000. Any account open within the last 12 months is going to get that. They have to make a phone call. I know they're going to review it. They've reviewed it before at all the other banks. They do it. So I'm okay with that. There were no surprises. There were no surprises. Right. But most people, why didn't you run?"
},
{
"end_time": 1885.538,
"index": 77,
"start_time": 1858.626,
"text": " Why would I run? I know what's happening right now. If something happens and they say something is absolutely wrong, do you know what they're going to do? I'm sorry, we can't help you. That's it. Everybody thinks they're going to call the police. They're going to have you arrested. They're not doing any of that. They don't know what the issue is. I've actually had accounts shut down where you go online and I went to go transfer money and the account has been, it's inactive."
},
{
"end_time": 1910.469,
"index": 78,
"start_time": 1886.101,
"text": " And it's like, I've got like $150,000, $200,000 in that account. And then you call them and the bank says, yeah, we need you to come in so we can talk about this. Cause think about if it's fraud, you're not coming in jumped in my car. I'm driving down there. You got $150,000 of my money because I know that I opened the account. I know where that money came from. I know."
},
{
"end_time": 1925.23,
"index": 79,
"start_time": 1910.776,
"text": " that the person's identity, you didn't go talk to this guy because he lives under a bridge somewhere. So you didn't track him down. You knew the process. Right. So I walk in, I sit down, I'm like, somebody been make some phone calls."
},
{
"end_time": 1947.073,
"index": 80,
"start_time": 1925.572,
"text": " We need to get this thing taken care of. This is the thing, Matt. The thing about that is that privilege allows you and you know that that allows you to walk in. I mean, if you put on a suit or a sports cap, we're done. Like no one's going to question you. Right. You know, so that's something we didn't talk about. And I'm"
},
{
"end_time": 1974.906,
"index": 81,
"start_time": 1947.568,
"text": " You know, given that I don't have a lot of diversity. Well, I have a little bit of diversity in my class, but not a ton. So I don't know that they get that. But that's something that's sort of the foundation of a lot of how this happens for some. Right. I don't know, even for me, I don't know that I could walk in and do that. I mean, they might call the police on me, maybe, where they won't call the police on you."
},
{
"end_time": 2005.179,
"index": 82,
"start_time": 1975.435,
"text": " If you threw a little ghetto in there, did your head do that head thing? You might get the cops called. Yeah, but even if I didn't, I might. I was going to say, what is another one of the scams that you go over in the book? I'll tell you one, and this one's a disturbing one."
},
{
"end_time": 2010.828,
"index": 83,
"start_time": 2005.879,
"text": " The healthcare fraud scams are the ones that are a little bit more disturbing."
},
{
"end_time": 2037.261,
"index": 84,
"start_time": 2011.203,
"text": " but there's a story in the book. There's it's also, it's in the intentional perpetrator chapter and it's in the victim chapter. And it's the story of Dr. Robert Courtney and Dr. Robert Courtney was a compound pharmacist. So he's the one that's working in the lab that is making the medicine that then gets shipped to the CVS or the doctor's office. So he's the pharmacist we never even think about or ever see. Okay. So this guy,"
},
{
"end_time": 2058.541,
"index": 85,
"start_time": 2038.353,
"text": " What he started to do was he started to dilute medication. We put him in the intentional perpetrator category but we also interviewed some of the victims."
},
{
"end_time": 2085.64,
"index": 86,
"start_time": 2058.933,
"text": " This is a perfect fraud. I'm just saying air quotes around this because it's sort of, it's terrible what he did. But think about, when you think about how fraud is discovered, if you have a stage four, 75 year old, um, pancreatic cancer patient that dies, you're not really going to question it. Right. If you have a stage four breast cancer patient, 79 years old female stage four who died,"
},
{
"end_time": 2115.623,
"index": 87,
"start_time": 2085.913,
"text": " They just didn't react well to the, they didn't take the medicine correctly. They were already, it's a good chance he was going to die anyway. Absolutely. So yes. So, so the likelihood of this being discovered was very, very slim. And so the reason why he, why he was diluting medication and making it spread further was two things. He had a large bill from the IRS that he wanted to pay and record show was around half a million dollars. And then he wanted to make a million dollar donation to his church. So,"
},
{
"end_time": 2143.592,
"index": 88,
"start_time": 2115.896,
"text": " He wanted to expand his gross margin. He wanted to make a million dollar donation to the church. His dad was a pastor, so he grew up in the church. Wow. So giving to the church was more important to him than helping save cancer patients. This is the thing. You know, this is the thing. Like we already just talked about, like, were you going to save the life of a person that's stage four pancreatic cancer, stage four breast cancer, and you're 80 years old?"
},
{
"end_time": 2171.834,
"index": 89,
"start_time": 2144.241,
"text": " Probably not and so what happened the way it was discovered was really interesting because One of the nurses that worked in the oncologist oncology office of the doctor Started getting really concerned because the patients weren't showing the traditional Cancer patient signs. So if you have cancer and you're going through chemo, what do you think that you're gonna see? Yeah, they're gonna be sick. They're gonna get tired afterwards. They're going to"
},
{
"end_time": 2200.947,
"index": 90,
"start_time": 2172.346,
"text": " But you were saying he just diluted it. So think about this. Some of the medication had no medicine in it. It was just saline solution. So what she started to notice was they didn't have nausea. They weren't losing their hair. They weren't getting thinner. You know, there are some things that you expect. And just like you said, the chemo responds differently to all people. And that's something that we always say. And that is generally true."
},
{
"end_time": 2227.841,
"index": 91,
"start_time": 2201.237,
"text": " My father passed away from non-Hoskins lymphoma. And when he went through chemo, he got sick immediately. So there are some things that are sort of standard. So the nurse started to get concerned that why aren't my patients showing some of the signs? Like they're not losing their hair. They're not nauseous. They're not extremely fatigued. Now they had other signs because they were deathly sick. And so what she decided to do"
},
{
"end_time": 2253.677,
"index": 92,
"start_time": 2228.626,
"text": " was she took a bag of the medication and sent it to the FDA because she was so concerned about it. That was one thing she did. Let me back up a second. Something else that she had a good relationship with the pharmaceutical sales rep that came to their doctor's office and she was talking about how busy she had been with all the patients. And the sales rep said,"
},
{
"end_time": 2275.503,
"index": 93,
"start_time": 2254.036,
"text": " That's odd, because Dr. Courtney hasn't purchased enough medication for you all to be as busy as you're saying. So those two things in between, you're making faces. You understand what I'm saying? No, I understand. It is amazing that those two people were so in sync with"
},
{
"end_time": 2304.292,
"index": 94,
"start_time": 2275.913,
"text": " I have a couple of friends that work in pharmaceutical sales jobs and some of them are friends with the doctors and some of them are friends with the nurses staff because they go weekly because when they have samples of drugs, they are going to say, hey, give these to your patients. Let's run some tests. Let's get some feedback so they can have a relationship. I'm not surprised by that. I'm not telling you the relationship but that you just happen to get"
},
{
"end_time": 2328.507,
"index": 95,
"start_time": 2304.292,
"text": " Like the nurse, I understand the nurse catching, I've got 30 patients and in the last two weeks, almost none of them have gotten sick. Like that's odd. Like I've been doing this for 10 years. Well, and the sales rep, the sales rep is like, why do you have 30 patients? Because he, that doctor has only, we've only sold for five. Right."
},
{
"end_time": 2351.084,
"index": 96,
"start_time": 2329.206,
"text": " The fact that both of them were aware enough to connect that and both of them go, something's not right. Most people just don't do that. Most people go through their jobs and they're just clicking the buttons. They're not even thinking. Think about this."
},
{
"end_time": 2379.906,
"index": 97,
"start_time": 2351.493,
"text": " She's thinking about how busy she is and he's thinking about his money cause he's a sales rep. So his, his bonuses are being impacted by the lack of sales. So when she said that to him, like, Oh gosh, we are slam. We are so busy. He was probably like, that doesn't match my records. Why are you so busy? Are you using somebody else or you understand that either one of them that it's, it's, it's lucky, lucky for the patients."
},
{
"end_time": 2395.316,
"index": 98,
"start_time": 2380.316,
"text": " that they were both that they do they both had that conversation they both she happened to mention it and he happened to pick up on it right that whole thing like that's a quint that's that's a you know there's some there's some months in time through this but you know you think about"
},
{
"end_time": 2423.166,
"index": 99,
"start_time": 2395.316,
"text": " that coupled with the fact that you have these patients that are not getting sick as they should, you know, so all of these little pieces floating out there. So she took this sample, got it tested, got this particular bag and this particular bag had, I think a drop of medication. And so that's how the investigation started. I mean, people just imagine there were 98,000 prescriptions that he manipulated. So there were some people that are stage three"
},
{
"end_time": 2443.814,
"index": 100,
"start_time": 2423.541,
"text": " cancer patients that never even got"
},
{
"end_time": 2455.367,
"index": 101,
"start_time": 2444.241,
"text": " I'm gonna take $40 from 100,000 people like they're not gonna nobody's hurt 40 bucks come on you you overcharge somebody's visa $40 or something you know"
},
{
"end_time": 2485.811,
"index": 102,
"start_time": 2456.169,
"text": " That's not, you know, this is, this is, this is killing people. Yeah. This is serious because we do know that chemotherapy does work, you know, so we do know that you can was questionable anyway. Well, but depending on my questionable, but like if you're early stage three, you might be able to stop it. Yeah. You got like a night probably it depends on the cancer, obviously, but you might have between a 70 to a 95% chance that it's, it's going to work. Not with this guy. No, not with this guy."
},
{
"end_time": 2511.698,
"index": 103,
"start_time": 2486.032,
"text": " Um, gosh, I was just thinking, uh, it's funny cause I have a buddy in the gym business and his father knew a guy in Canada that, so, uh, do you, you a member of a gym like LA fitness or something? You know how once a year, like you pay your $40 a month, but, and once a year they hit you up for like $59. Mm hmm."
},
{
"end_time": 2540.213,
"index": 104,
"start_time": 2511.869,
"text": " So everybody kind of expects it. Like if you've been there a year or two, they, of course you hit, you get that $59 and you're all like, damn it, what's this? And they go, look, it's an annual fee. It's in your contract. We'd always do it. Oh yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, he has a, he had a buddy, his father had a buddy who ran a gym and, and also I knew his father, he ran the gyms. So in Canada, this guy made millions, but every two or three years,"
},
{
"end_time": 2562.449,
"index": 105,
"start_time": 2540.913,
"text": " He said,"
},
{
"end_time": 2590.947,
"index": 106,
"start_time": 2562.739,
"text": " but like 75 to 80% of the people did not complain. He was or if you called up and you said, oh yeah, that's our annual fee. And they were good. No, no, the annual fees you took out six months ago and they go, we did hold on. Let me check. Oh, you're right. I'll refund that. Sorry. You got thrown in with the wrong bash and they give him the money back. He said 75% of the people didn't complain. And so he would just keep the money. He said, you know, it was nice. You get an extra, you make an extra half a million dollars for no reason."
},
{
"end_time": 2616.34,
"index": 107,
"start_time": 2591.237,
"text": " You know, it's a nice little perk. Well, he'd been doing it for like, done it four or five times over 10 or 15 years. And at some point there was an investigation and he got in trouble and it was ended up being like $6 million or something outrageous. And he had to do, he got three years. I think he did six months in jail. And then the rest of it, he said, you know, it's Canada. So the rest of it, you know, they put an ankle monitor on you and tell you to,"
},
{
"end_time": 2645.674,
"index": 108,
"start_time": 2616.834,
"text": " Go sit in front of your TV and do it in your living room. Uh, and he's a multimillionaire. So you can imagine like that's nothing like he gets to live in this big house. He didn't even have to work. Um, but like, but that's minor, like that's a minor scam. But this is the one I just described is evil. Right. That's what I'm saying. And he probably said for each one of those patients, who knows how much money he saved? Like what was each patient worth to him?"
},
{
"end_time": 2673.609,
"index": 109,
"start_time": 2646.357,
"text": " He did all kinds of stuff though, Matt. He would do things like, you know, he would, um, people would bring things like the reps would bring things. He would sell the things that the reps would bring. So like if someone brought diapers or wipes, he would sell those. It's just terrible. He's trying to make that donation. He's a good Christian."
},
{
"end_time": 2695.794,
"index": 110,
"start_time": 2674.616,
"text": " The book is filled with so many stories, but that's one that stuck out for me today. Oh, hey, I have a question. So did you get funding for your documentary or did you just do the documentary? I begged people. So this is the thing. For the doc, I had to fundraise and it's so expensive."
},
{
"end_time": 2724.667,
"index": 111,
"start_time": 2696.067,
"text": " Because the people that I had to hire are real people. They're real filmmakers. Some of them are Emmy nominated, um, um, directors of photography, like, so I had to raise my own. So expensive, so expensive. In the end, did you recoup all that money? No, no. Are you still trying? I'm still trying. No way. No way. I haven't seen him. I haven't seen a royalty check in years. So you, so you,"
},
{
"end_time": 2737.807,
"index": 112,
"start_time": 2725.026,
"text": " You went to Netflix and you ended up doing it yourself. Did you try and do a sizzle reel to get funding? Yeah, of course. This is the thing. What's interesting is"
},
{
"end_time": 2755.401,
"index": 113,
"start_time": 2738.558,
"text": " What sells, and this is just my opinion, what sells a project is not the project, it's the people and not the people in it, the people around it. You need an Emmy nominated Oscar award winning somebody, whether that's a DP, whether that's a writer, screenwriter,"
},
{
"end_time": 2778.285,
"index": 114,
"start_time": 2755.401,
"text": " Somebody so the story can be amazing the footage you have to be outstanding, but if you don't have a name somebody that went to USC film school or NYU film school or Spike Lee student or something you got to have something to get through the noise if you're just a regular old person with a great story Hang it up"
},
{
"end_time": 2808.848,
"index": 115,
"start_time": 2779.804,
"text": " You didn't partner with a production company that had already done? I did and that cost me a lot of money too because partner"
},
{
"end_time": 2825.213,
"index": 116,
"start_time": 2809.275,
"text": " Pay for their people"
},
{
"end_time": 2851.374,
"index": 117,
"start_time": 2825.503,
"text": " Did the film get me known in a lot of circles that I would not otherwise be in? Sure. Do I have any other projects that are on Netflix or that was on Amazon? No. So I'm in a space that I might not be in, but it's more, it's more about marketing yourself than it is about money. Well, yeah, I was going to say that, but now you can say I've had a, you know, my, my documentary was ran on a Netflix is currently on"
},
{
"end_time": 2874.377,
"index": 118,
"start_time": 2852.159,
"text": " What would you rather have? Would you rather be able to say that? Would you rather have money in your pocket? But if you do another one, then you're that much further ahead if you did another doc. This is the thing. If I ever do a project again, I gotta walk into it with the funds. There's gotta be a studio attached to me that wants to just"
},
{
"end_time": 2902.363,
"index": 119,
"start_time": 2875.282,
"text": " So I think Netflix"
},
{
"end_time": 2922.927,
"index": 120,
"start_time": 2903.302,
"text": " Buried by the US government and ignored by the national media, this is the story they don't want you to know."
},
{
"end_time": 2949.394,
"index": 121,
"start_time": 2923.66,
"text": " When Frank Amadeo met with President George W. Bush at the White House to discuss NATO operations in Afghanistan, no one knew that he'd already embezzled nearly $200 million from the federal government, money he intended to use to bankroll his plan to take over the world. From Amadeo's global headquarters in the shadow of Florida's Disney World, with a nearly inexhaustible supply of the Internal Revenue Service's funds,"
},
{
"end_time": 2973.66,
"index": 122,
"start_time": 2949.77,
"text": " Amadeo acquired multiple businesses, amassing a mega conglomerate. Driven by his delusions of world conquest, he negotiated the purchase of a squadron of American fighter jets and the controlling interests in a former Soviet ICBM factory. He began work to build the largest private militia on the planet, over one million Africans strong. Simultaneously,"
},
{
"end_time": 3001.596,
"index": 123,
"start_time": 2974.138,
"text": " Amadeo hired an international black ops force to orchestrate a coup in the Congo while plotting to take over several small Eastern European countries. The most disturbing part of it all is, had the US government not thwarted his plans, he might have just pulled it off. It's insanity. The bizarre true story of a bipolar megalomaniac's insane plan for total world domination. Available now on Amazon and Audible."
},
{
"end_time": 3029.138,
"index": 124,
"start_time": 3002.807,
"text": " So listen, I'm going to tell you something. This is good for a scam. Um, so I know, and I'm not going to tell you the name of the guy. Um, so I knew a guy, I know a guy that I've dealt with and we've been on, you know, he's actually been on like, I don't want to say we've, we've had some interactions and after we'd had several interactions and talks and you know, um, he, he says, listen,"
},
{
"end_time": 3057.432,
"index": 125,
"start_time": 3030.077,
"text": " Like I feel comfortable with you. I'm going to tell you something. I said, okay. So he calls me back. He is, I'm only telling you this because you're the only person that will really understand what I did and appreciate it. He said, cause I can't tell anybody else. I said, okay, what'd you do? So he wrote a book. He said the book did okay. He said, but I didn't get any offers to turn it into a movie. It wasn't optioned. And he said, so, you know, I was upset. It did okay."
},
{
"end_time": 3082.056,
"index": 126,
"start_time": 3058.046,
"text": " So he said, he turned around and he said, the problem is I noticed that people want to option things that have been optioned. Okay. I said, okay. So he made up a fake producer. He gave him a LinkedIn account. He connected him to a bunch of projects. He got gave, got him an, uh, I am BD. What is it called?"
},
{
"end_time": 3111.988,
"index": 127,
"start_time": 3082.517,
"text": " He started a website, got him an email, paid for everything, started a little production company. He's like, totally looks legit. And then he did a press release about how this guy had optioned his book. He said, as soon as I optioned it through the website, he was contacted by, it wasn't Warner Brothers, but it was someone like underneath, let's say Sony or something. He created his own buzz."
},
{
"end_time": 3139.172,
"index": 128,
"start_time": 3113.148,
"text": " He was, so now the fake producer was contacted and they said, look, we're interested in, in buying out the option. So he said, they then bought out the option from this fake producer. He said, like, I'm, I'm signing a name. He's signing, I'm signing names. I'm doing this. Like he said, so they ended up buying out the option. And, and when he was telling me that."
},
{
"end_time": 3169.155,
"index": 129,
"start_time": 3139.582,
"text": " He said, he's like, and I'm telling you right now, but they're talking about this actor and this one and this one. And then there was, by the way, then in the Hollywood reporter or near, they then did a newspaper report about how they just bought this from that producer who's nobody. Like he was telling me, like, I looked it up. I was like, this is nuts. And he goes, yeah. And I said, and I remember thinking to myself, the likelihood that movie, that book, it's turned into a movie. Let's face it. They option two, 3000 a year and they never get made."
},
{
"end_time": 3193.592,
"index": 130,
"start_time": 3169.582,
"text": " Three of them get made. So I thought, okay, well I said, yeah, that's pretty cool. And he said, yeah, right now they're auditioning or talking to these actors. Once again, they do that. They'll connect an actor to a film. He said, so and so is writing the screenplay. Okay. Still doesn't matter. I've been in that situation and never went anywhere, but guess what? They started filming the thing about three months ago."
},
{
"end_time": 3206.374,
"index": 131,
"start_time": 3194.77,
"text": " And he said, as soon as it's done, he said, I want to, I'll come on your program and I'll tell the whole story. I said, that's, that's incredible. That's a good one. Right. That's great."
},
{
"end_time": 3230.794,
"index": 132,
"start_time": 3206.869,
"text": " That's a good one. I want to be on when you do it. You've been in that situation. You know the idea of being able to do that, having the forethought. I mean, he created his own buzz. And so when you create the buzz, then the buzz buzzes and other people pick up. So how much time did you get for what you did? I got 26 years."
},
{
"end_time": 3254.224,
"index": 133,
"start_time": 3231.305,
"text": " And four months, but I don't like to say the four months. I typically just say 26 years, because if you say four months, it's like you're whining about it. Matthew. Yeah. How much time did you actually do? Just shy of 13 years. Yeah, I know. But it's the first decades that that's the hardest, you know, last three years just flew by my favorite question of all time that I've ever gotten."
},
{
"end_time": 3281.869,
"index": 134,
"start_time": 3255.009,
"text": " And this is just a narcissist in me is that this one student said, this female student goes, do you feel like she was, do you feel like you got away with it for so long because you're so charming? And I mean, I started laughing so hard. I was like, I was like, I wish I had recorded. I was like, that's the best question ever. But anyway, anyway, but I like writing. So I wake up early and I write and"
},
{
"end_time": 3312.005,
"index": 135,
"start_time": 3282.278,
"text": " I write stories and I like crime stories. I don't really like violent crime stories. I have an adversion to violence for some reason, but I like scam stories. I like interesting, unique criminals that did things uniquely or maybe in an ingenious way of some kind. So that's typically what I stick with. In five sentences, can you tell me about your crime? I owned a mortgage company."
},
{
"end_time": 3339.889,
"index": 136,
"start_time": 3312.756,
"text": " took advantage of that system, went on the run for three years, between 15 million and 55 million, semi colon, depending on who you believe. And ultimately, I was caught and sentenced to 26 years. And you did 13? 13. Yes. Now keep in mind, in the federal system, you do 85% of your time. So I cooperated."
},
{
"end_time": 3362.159,
"index": 137,
"start_time": 3340.913,
"text": " I was asked to be interviewed by Dateline NBC News, which I was. I was asked to be interviewed. This is by the US Attorney. I was asked to be interviewed by American Greed, which I was. I was then asked to write an ethics and fraud course."
},
{
"end_time": 3392.278,
"index": 138,
"start_time": 3362.978,
"text": " Which I did, which is taught to the nations of mortgage brokers have to take like four hours of ethics and fraud. I wrote a course that a national one or actually two of the national national schools teach. I also wrote a federal red flags rules course and we then turned around and after a lot of legal battling, you know, we got the government to reduce my sentence by by seven years."
},
{
"end_time": 3420.964,
"index": 139,
"start_time": 3392.944,
"text": " Then, as soon as I came back onto the, you know, after I went to court and got seven years knocked off, came back, I was walking the track with this guy who was actually cooperating in his case. And he was, his name was Ron Wilson. He'd stolen $57 million in the largest Ponzi scheme in South Carolina history. And we were talking and"
},
{
"end_time": 3448.063,
"index": 140,
"start_time": 3422.09,
"text": " He was basically explaining to me that he was, he didn't think, he didn't believe that the government was going to give him a reduction in his sentence for his cooperation because they thought he was still hiding money. And at some point after months of just walking around, he told me where he'd hidden a bunch of Ponzi scheme or that he had actually given a couple of people money to keep for him. So what did you do? I happened to be, it's, this is what's so funny. I'd love to say I got on the phone and called my attorney."
},
{
"end_time": 3474.838,
"index": 141,
"start_time": 3448.814,
"text": " But I didn't think the government would give me anything for anything else. They didn't want to give me the first reduction. You know, we had to go to court and fight to get that reduction. So a month or so later, I was ordering my transcripts. I had my lawyer sending me my transcripts for my reduction because I wanted to include it in part of my book. I'm still kind of writing my book and I we were talking on the phone and she just happened to say,"
},
{
"end_time": 3503.985,
"index": 142,
"start_time": 3475.623,
"text": " So she's like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to order those. I'm sorry. I forgot, you know, okay. Okay. I said, okay, well, let me know. I said, uh, thank you very much. And she was like, Hey, she was, so what's going on? What's going on? Like this woman never wanted to talk to me. Like they don't want to talk. We're not friends. And I was like, what's going, what do you mean? She was, what's going on in there? Anything happened? I went, no. And she goes, okay, nothing, nothing. And I just was like, it was almost like I was like, I should, you know what? Something happened the other day."
},
{
"end_time": 3533.729,
"index": 143,
"start_time": 3504.633,
"text": " Listen to this. And I told her, um, I told her what happened. She was, well, let me look into it. A week later, I get told by a correctional officer. Hey, you got to go to SIS, which is a department. So I go to this department and they say, they put me on the phone with somebody. They said, Hey, you gotta talk to this guy. He's a secret service agent. And he says, listen, I understand that, you know, we're Ron Wilson hid Ponzi scheme money. And I said, I mean, I do, but it's not a lot. And I said, I need something in writing saying you'll give me a reduction."
},
{
"end_time": 3564.138,
"index": 144,
"start_time": 3534.224,
"text": " And he said, yeah, no problem. So they got me something. You became a whistleblower. You became a vigilante whistleblower. You're a crossover into the vigilante whistleblower category. I was just saying, see, inmates have a different word for it. You're a DLL snitch. Is that what you were? Is that what people thought of you? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But, you know, it was funny because there's all like, you're not, I'm not advertising it, but if somebody"
},
{
"end_time": 3590.674,
"index": 145,
"start_time": 3564.343,
"text": " were to say like, because they knew I went to court got my sentence cut, like guys are like, Oh, bro, I heard you cooperate. I'm like, right. And? Well, that's a bullshit. I go over this, bro. I didn't come here to make friends. Like, you're a long time though. You needed some friends, right? Well, look, it's a medium, you might have needed some friends. But I did three years in the medium. And then I went to the low. And honestly, a lot of that is for guys that are in like penitentiaries. And"
},
{
"end_time": 3613.814,
"index": 146,
"start_time": 3591.135,
"text": " In the federal system, the bulk of inmates cooperate. You know, I used to, they say like 95% of them cooperated, but 100% are lying about it. So, you know, and I could, I would sit there and you'd be in the unit and guys would sit there and talk about, you know, oh, snitches this, snitches that. And I'd say, well, let's do the math."
},
{
"end_time": 3642.381,
"index": 147,
"start_time": 3615.06,
"text": " And you would sit back and say, there's 150 guys in this unit, 95% cooperated. We know that it's not these 10 guys, because they all went to trial, so they didn't have an option. We know it's not these that you start doing the math, you go, so that means there's five people in this unit that did not cooperate. And of course, there'd be five or six of us standing around, and I go, and I'll bet it's every one of you guys. So, um, yeah, so I, I, I talked to talk to sis, I talked to the Secret Service."
},
{
"end_time": 3671.305,
"index": 148,
"start_time": 3643.234,
"text": " And eventually they indicted that guy, Ron Wilson, and the two people working with him. They recovered half a million dollars. And after once again, government didn't want to give me anything. So we had to fight, we had to file paperwork and fight them in court. And I got another five years knocked off my sentence. By the time I got that five years knocked off my sentence. Now it's 12 years knocked off my sentence. I'm basically leaving. I'd already been locked up seven or eight years or no eight or nine years by that point."
},
{
"end_time": 3694.599,
"index": 149,
"start_time": 3671.647,
"text": " So within a year or two, I was transferred. So it ended up being 12 years and change, you know, hard, how hard did you have a family? Like, how hard was that transition for you? Um, well, one, I'd been on the run for three years. So how is that? I'd essentially abandoned my family anyway. How hard was that? Well,"
},
{
"end_time": 3724.838,
"index": 150,
"start_time": 3695.265,
"text": " You know, I had a son, I had a little boy, but I was divorced from his mom and I'm basically a weekend dad. So like every two weeks he's coming over for the weekend and maybe you pick him up on a Wednesday and he's three years old and he doesn't even really know who I am that much. You know, he knows I'm daddy, but mommy has a new boyfriend and that guy's living in the house. So, you know, so I'm more like an older uncle that by picks him up and buys him toys and that's great. Um, so leaving him, you know, it's like, I can't, I'm not taking, I can't take him with me."
},
{
"end_time": 3748.729,
"index": 151,
"start_time": 3725.06,
"text": " I'm not raising him anyway. So that was that was the worst part that and leaving my mother. My dad was always such a just a real jerk. Really was like my dad, you know, like growing up. It's funny, because one of the things I'm always asked is, you know, oh, well, why did you do it? And you know, initially, I always say, well, I did it for the money. But then you write a book."
},
{
"end_time": 3773.422,
"index": 152,
"start_time": 3749.394,
"text": " and then you think deeper and you have to really think about it and you start reading books about how to write books and how to write a memoir and how to and I probably read three of them while I was locked up before I even started writing and and while I was writing and you know you start realizing there's just different techniques and I think ultimately it ended up being like yeah that doesn't make sense because when you when you for"
},
{
"end_time": 3803.831,
"index": 153,
"start_time": 3774.019,
"text": " Hi, I'm here to pick up my son Milo. There's no Milo here. Who picked up my son from school? Streaming only on Peacock. I'm gonna need the name of everyone that could have a connection. You don't understand. It was just the five of us. So this was all planned? What did you get it to? I will do whatever it takes to get my son back. I honestly didn't see this coming. These nice people killing each other. All Her Fault, a new series streaming now only on Peacock."
},
{
"end_time": 3834.104,
"index": 154,
"start_time": 3804.224,
"text": " started committing fraud, it was a little bit here, a little bit there, and nobody knew that fraud had been committed. And you got the money, you got 100,000 and then you got 300,000 and it was 500. So you had the money. You didn't need the money now. So why are you still doing it? You know, and it just continued and continued and even when I got called, why didn't you start over? Why didn't you move into your parents' spare room, claim bankruptcy and start your life over again? You could be a car salesman, you could do lots of things. Why didn't you do that? So I really, when it boils down to it, I think it was just the fact that"
},
{
"end_time": 3862.892,
"index": 155,
"start_time": 3834.838,
"text": " You know, I was raised by a very narcissistic father who was disappointed, you know, I was not the son he wanted. He's five foot 10, you know, good looking, athletic, smart. Everything came pretty easily to him, you know, made him, you know, you know, had nothing growing up and was now making hundreds of thousands a year. And I'm a kid that has struggling with dyslexia is not great at sports. You know what I'm saying? Like I was not the son he wanted."
},
{
"end_time": 3890.23,
"index": 156,
"start_time": 3863.183,
"text": " or deserve so and can and probably made you feel feel guilty for that every chance you could. Yeah, yeah, it was always a snide comments. But what's great is when I started making money. He really started respecting me like I opened a mortgage like I graduated high I graduated high school with C's graduated college with A's. And then it was still with a degree in fine arts. And I remember, as I was graduating, he said, Yeah, he said, Yeah, you got a degree in fine arts. He said, he said,"
},
{
"end_time": 3917.705,
"index": 157,
"start_time": 3890.555,
"text": " You'll be able to, he said, with that degree, you're probably your best course of action nowadays is you'll be drawing sweaty tourists at Disney World to think about moving to Orlando. I was like, wow, it's a four year degree, you know? So anyway, I ended up becoming a mortgage broker, ended up opening my own mortgage company. Now I'm making money. I own real estate. I had like 50 or more than 50 properties within a few years. I'm doing great. So"
},
{
"end_time": 3944.411,
"index": 158,
"start_time": 3918.541,
"text": " So yeah, I continued to commit fraud and then eventually I got caught and he was like, wait, wait, wait, when you opened your company, though, there was a period, a period where your company was successful legitimately, right? No. Really? I mean, from the very, you have to understand the very first fraud I ever committed had a very first loan I ever did had fraud in it. And what was that fraud in that loan? You have to understand, I like banked everything on being a mortgage broker."
},
{
"end_time": 3973.302,
"index": 159,
"start_time": 3944.957,
"text": " I had to, I had to go away to be a mortgage broker. I paid the fee. I took the class. I passed. I started working knowing I'm not going to make any money for at least 30 days. And I was working 80 hours a week. I was before there before everybody stayed till eight, nine, 10 o'clock at night. They gave me a key, you know? So, um, by the time I had a couple of loans going, uh, like I'm a month behind on my car payment."
},
{
"end_time": 4001.374,
"index": 160,
"start_time": 3974.104,
"text": " Might have been two. You know, my mortgage is behind like, it's not good. So I really need this loan to close. And it turns out that I brought the loan file into my manager and she opens the file and she's fumbling through the paperwork. And there's one document she pulled and put to the side and she said, and she said, it's a perfect file looks great. But on this on the verification of rent for your borrower,"
},
{
"end_time": 4029.957,
"index": 161,
"start_time": 4001.783,
"text": " She was 30 days late on her rent in the last two years. That's a, that's a deal killer. It's over. You're not lending money to somebody who pays their, their rent late. They're going to pay their mortgage late if they paid it all. So I was, I just was like, Oh my God. And I remember she, she, while she was telling me that she pulled out a bottle of white out, you know, the old ones, not the spit, but we want to start. She's like, yeah, so here's what's the problem is."
},
{
"end_time": 4059.428,
"index": 162,
"start_time": 4030.452,
"text": " And then she handed to me, she said, so if I was you, I would wipe that out. I would make a copy of it and stick it back in the file. She says, they'll never catch it. I was like, that's fraud. I could go to jail. And she goes, worst that happens is you get fired. Nobody's calling the FBI. You'll be fine. She says, I do it all the time. It's going to be fine. There's a lot of documents in there. And I was like, wow. So I trusted her. I whited it out."
},
{
"end_time": 4089.036,
"index": 163,
"start_time": 4060.077,
"text": " Put the document back in there, send it to underwriting. Three, four days later, I'm freaking out for three or four days. Like I didn't sleep for four days. So three, four days later, they call me. They say, Hey, we're ready to close. And we close. We closed a few days later. I got a check for like $3,500. I'm thrilled. And then you're back. You're back in business. You're paying your rent. You're paying your car note. Yeah. But the next guy that came in made 52,000 a year. He made 57,000. He could get the loan."
},
{
"end_time": 4114.48,
"index": 164,
"start_time": 4089.957,
"text": " Wow, it's now the fine arts degree seems like a good idea. So now I'm changing the 52 to 57. Yeah, and all the corresponding. So let me ask you this, did the clients know that you were changing making the changes? Not always like sometimes if it was something small, I didn't say anything. Like I'd rather have them deny it. If they were they were going to be asked. Um,"
},
{
"end_time": 4134.377,
"index": 165,
"start_time": 4115.196,
"text": " You know, it's interesting because in my categories, you are almost a cross between a righteous perpetrator and an intentional perpetrator. And you're a little bit more righteous than you are intentional, just based on how your story started."
},
{
"end_time": 4158.148,
"index": 166,
"start_time": 4134.48,
"text": " In the book I talk about, righteous perpetrators are people that have power or privilege with inside an organization that use that power to help someone outside. So like, yes, you did receive a fee. So you did, but you also knew that, goodness, 52,000 versus 57, if I just change this, this person can be on their way to home ownership."
},
{
"end_time": 4184.974,
"index": 167,
"start_time": 4158.524,
"text": " This feels minor and like the worst is going to happen is sort of a slap on the wrist, you know, so and you received your commission, but you got to a point where maybe I'm sure that commission, you didn't need it anymore, but you could still help people. Well, I mean, I'm not sure, like initially, like you said, it started small. It was just to get"
},
{
"end_time": 4212.449,
"index": 168,
"start_time": 4185.759,
"text": " get the loans closed, get my commission, get the next person, you know, let's, let's get this. You know, this is the thing. It's like, were you a mastermind at some massive, massive million dollar scheme at first? No, no. But did you think that, gosh, if I just change this one little thing, I could help, I can help them greatly and help me a little bit."
},
{
"end_time": 4230.862,
"index": 169,
"start_time": 4213.609,
"text": " Yeah, well, I mean, I obviously you want these people to get into the house, right? And, and I had worked before opening my mortgage company, I'd worked for another mortgage company, and their credit line got shut off at one point."
},
{
"end_time": 4257.551,
"index": 170,
"start_time": 4231.647,
"text": " And I remember getting phone calls from people where they had packed their stuff up in U-Haul vans because like they have to be out of the house and they're calling me like, listen, what you said we were going to close. I'm like, yeah, I thought we were going to close. They, the credit line got shut off. I don't know what's happening. They're looking for new investors. They're like, it didn't typically happen, but they were approving people that with only one outlet to sell those loans. And when that got shut off, they turned around and went to other ones. They didn't have it. So,"
},
{
"end_time": 4283.131,
"index": 171,
"start_time": 4257.841,
"text": " I've got people ready to close people's leases that are up. They have to be out of their house or their, their, their apartment or whatever. They're loading up lieu halls because we're being told, give it a few more days in a week. You know, the, we don't know what to tell your customers. So I do remember feeling desperate when people are telling me like, you know, we're, we're staying in their life. I mean, this is their real life. Right. So somehow you've, you've turned from,"
},
{
"end_time": 4309.65,
"index": 172,
"start_time": 4283.473,
"text": " mortgage broker to almost a therapist, you know, like, because you're a part of their, their lives, their livelihood, the way they're going to live. I mean, yeah, but I mean, I would love to sit there and say it was, you know, altruistic. But you know, the truth is, well, it got big. I mean, yeah, yeah. Well, once it got away from me at some point, at some point, when I started my own company, now I've got my brokers coming to me. They need their loans to close."
},
{
"end_time": 4336.254,
"index": 173,
"start_time": 4310.009,
"text": " They need a W-2 change or they need a bank statement change or then and then it got to the point where it was like, it's such a pain to change bank statements. Like it's easier if I just create my own bank online and come up with my own bank statements. Logos and everything, processes and all. Right. And then I can then I can just then you they walk in and pretty much everybody that came in the door, if they thought there was going to be an issue with their bank,"
},
{
"end_time": 4365.828,
"index": 174,
"start_time": 4336.8,
"text": " They just put down that they worked at or their bank was one of their banks. No, it was Bank of Ebor. There was a place, Ebor city in Tampa. It was Bank of Ebor and they'd still put down their own bank. They just have two banks. And so if we needed, if they didn't have the quite enough money in their bank or they needed reserves or whatever, well, Oh yeah, well I've got an extra 15,000 in Bank of Ebor. Oh, I didn't know. Well, yeah, I can get you the bank statement and they could call the bank, you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 4394.07,
"index": 175,
"start_time": 4366.015,
"text": " We had some, we'd answer, put them on hold, tell them, hold on, you know, I'll check. Can you put it back? It wasn't. It was a whole sham. No, it was all a sham. It was all a sham. And that way, there were multiple banks. It was probably like two or three banks. There was three banks, actually. You should let me do the documentary about your life. I was going to say, so what happened was eventually I ended up getting in trouble. Was there a whistleblower? How did you get caught? Well,"
},
{
"end_time": 4425.316,
"index": 176,
"start_time": 4395.981,
"text": " Well, I mean, I got in trouble a lot, like the first what made it go from changing W-2s to big. So when I was listening to your, you discuss the different types of perpetrators, right? Or whatever scammers or so I initially I started off, I believe the, you know, as I was just an opportunist, I was just in the right place at the right time, I needed it to happen. But then at some point,"
},
{
"end_time": 4451.852,
"index": 177,
"start_time": 4426.561,
"text": " Um, someone who had worked for me, who went, she went and opened up her own company and she got in trouble with the FBI and wore a wire on me. She and her husband, because she knew what I was doing. And what I was doing was one of the ways that I got so many rental properties, my wife and I got so many rental properties is I would buy a property and then I would sell it. I'd renovate it and then sell it to my ex wife."
},
{
"end_time": 4481.288,
"index": 178,
"start_time": 4453.063,
"text": " So there's something called seasoning where if you buy a property, you have to wait a certain period of time before you can refinance it. So instead, if I buy it, fix it up and sell it, I can supersede that with it. Whatever I can, I can get around that. And what happened is when I'm selling it to my wife, we're not telling the lender this, my wife, we tell her just some clients, like she never took my last name specifically for this purpose. So we ended up getting several million dollars worth of property very quickly within about a year or so. All she has to do is collect rent, raise my son,"
},
{
"end_time": 4507.978,
"index": 179,
"start_time": 4481.852,
"text": " So we're doing fine. Well, this other, this person that used to work for me ended up telling the FBI so that obviously she could get a reduction in her sentence. And so now I'm, I get in trouble with the FBI. I ended up taking a plea deal. I take three, three years probation, but I can't, I can't own my mortgage company now. So I decided what I was going to do was it's like, that's where it was like, okay, well you could claim bankruptcy."
},
{
"end_time": 4528.456,
"index": 180,
"start_time": 4508.643,
"text": " and start over, right? So I was in the middle of the divorce. Sounds very stressful. Yeah, it was stressful. So I was getting divorced. From the woman that you owned all the properties with. Yes, yes. She didn't want to be married to a felon. Anyway, she sort of was one too."
},
{
"end_time": 4558.558,
"index": 181,
"start_time": 4528.626,
"text": " No, she, I would know that. Listen, definitely. I mean, but it's like she was, she, she had blood on her hands too. Oh no, she absolutely did. But in, and here's what's really funny. What's really funny is my lawyer. When I got my lawyer, here's what he told me. He said, listen, to be honest with you, like how close are you with your wife? And I went, what do you mean? He said, listen, cause I, he knew I was living someone at somewhere else by that point. If that makes sense, like we were already having problems. So he was like, I've been, how close are you with it? Like are you getting divorced? I was like, probably. Yeah. Jeez. He said he was because."
},
{
"end_time": 4584.258,
"index": 182,
"start_time": 4559.07,
"text": " All the loans are in her name. Like he's like, I mean, it's, he said I could, if you were to cooperate and you were to cooperate against some of your mortgage brokers, I could keep you from being indicted at all. She'd be indicted. They'd be indicted. It's like, yeah, listen, this, this, this woman hates my guts already. Like I'm already in danger. Like she could, she's, she could cut you. Like she's an angry person."
},
{
"end_time": 4609.599,
"index": 183,
"start_time": 4584.991,
"text": " And I said, I'm, I'm, and she's raising my son. And I said, now I said, besides, I'm just going to get probation. So I ended up, I paid my lawyer $75,000 to give me probation. And of course, now that I know how the sentencing guidelines work, I realized like, what a shyster I was never facing prison time. Like I could have gotten a public defender for that. So anyway, the point is, is that I plead guilty"
},
{
"end_time": 4634.753,
"index": 184,
"start_time": 4610.094,
"text": " And I can't own the mortgage company anymore. So I decided I'm gonna start a development company and start renovating houses. But there's issues with that. To get the money, you need money, obviously, you need capital. And my issue with that was that I was going to start renovating houses, but in the area you work city where I was going to renovate them, which is just outside of Tampa, it's Tampa properties are selling for like,"
},
{
"end_time": 4659.957,
"index": 185,
"start_time": 4635.247,
"text": " The average price is like $75,000. So you can buy a house for let's say $40,000, put $20,000 in it, sell it for $100,000. Maybe you make $30,000 or $40,000 or $30,000, more like $25,000 or $30,000. That's it. So I need to be able to get these houses to appraise higher. So that's a problem. Well, the way you determine how much a house, the value of a house is a comparable sales. So I need to be able to compare these houses to houses higher."
},
{
"end_time": 4684.292,
"index": 186,
"start_time": 4660.555,
"text": " And the way you can, so I started dating a girl at a title company and she, and so I asked her, Hey, how can I like, if I buy a house and I sell it for a hundred, if I buy it for 50, how can I record the sale at 200? And she said, Oh, well, you'd have to pay the extra doc stamps and you'd have to switch out the transaction form. And I said, okay. So I do that."
},
{
"end_time": 4709.548,
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"start_time": 4684.548,
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"end_time": 4756.698,
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},
{
"end_time": 4797.346,
"index": 191,
"start_time": 4772.312,
"text": " So I need borrowers that will buy houses for $200,000."
},
{
"end_time": 4824.497,
"index": 192,
"start_time": 4798.148,
"text": " And the problem with that is if you find those borrowers, they can only borrow so many. And the other problem with those people are that they want part of the profit and I don't want to give them part of the profit. So what I decided was I was just going to start making my own borrowers because that's really the go-to move. You create fictitious people. Yeah, synthetic identities. I figured out how to get social security to issue social security numbers to children that don't exist."
},
{
"end_time": 4853.763,
"index": 193,
"start_time": 4824.94,
"text": " Right. So I make a fake birth certificate for like a, an eight month old girl. And then I go into social security and I say, here's my birth certificate and here's my shot record. Cause if the kids over 12 months old, you have to actually show up with it with the baby. Well, I don't have a baby to show up with it's 11 or 13 or 14 months old. So, but if you just show up with a shot record and the birth certificate, you're good. So I do that and I start getting these people and"
},
{
"end_time": 4867.227,
"index": 194,
"start_time": 4854.258,
"text": " that you probably well, you're not a psychiatrist. So I was gonna say this is probably okay. So I was gonna say I named the people not all but most of them were names like Michael White, James Redd, Lee Black,"
},
{
"end_time": 4895.776,
"index": 195,
"start_time": 4867.602,
"text": " Brandon green, William blue. Yeah. Common names is somebody might actually be named that. No, no. Like the thing about the last names, black, red, white, green. Yeah. So there was a movie called from Quentin Tarantino called reservoir dogs. And he gave everybody names like that. Mr. Pink, Mr. Black, Mr. I love that movie. So, you know, I started naming these characters, those names, I got them all through three secure credit cards."
},
{
"end_time": 4922.449,
"index": 196,
"start_time": 4896.101,
"text": " made the payments for six months. And after six months, they have 750 credit scores. Okay, I take it back. You are not a righteous perpetrator. Right. It evolved like I knew the credit system. I knew how these things worked. I knew I could take advantage of that system. You know, what's interesting is how easy it is to do. Yeah, once you're kind of in the system, and if you can poke around and figure, especially if you're in a position where, where you can learn through trial and error,"
},
{
"end_time": 4948.029,
"index": 197,
"start_time": 4923.729,
"text": " Right. So every time I made a mistake, I learned a little bit more, a little bit more. And I was able to, to if, if a, if a bank blamed. So if a bank found out about it and came to me and said, this is what we just found out. I'd say, are you serious? You're telling me my customer sent me that. And the customer you created. Yes. No, well, no, I'm saying if it was a real customer at the old, cause I learned most of this while I was a mortgage broker."
},
{
"end_time": 4975.845,
"index": 198,
"start_time": 4948.183,
"text": " Okay, changing their documents. So if they caught something, I'd be like, you're telling me my, you're telling me my customer gave me a fake W two, he seemed so honest. And I said, Well, I'm not doing that loan for him. Hey, by the way, how'd you figure that out? And they said, Oh, well, it turns out this really? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Then I'd alter it and send it to another lender. And then it goes through and they close the loan. I feel bad. So what happens?"
},
{
"end_time": 5004.275,
"index": 199,
"start_time": 4976.442,
"text": " Is, um, I start creating these fake people. I raised the value. I start buying these houses for 40 and 50,000, um, recording the values of the houses at 200 to 20, whatever, one 90 to 30 to 50. And so the whole area raises up through the roof and my borrowers, each borrower buys five, sometimes six houses, refinances those houses after a month or so pulls out 150,000, you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 5032.073,
"index": 200,
"start_time": 5004.872,
"text": " 100, 150,000, whatever the appraisal came in at, like 80, 95%, 90%. And so once each one of them got to around a million, 1.1 million, 1.2 million, I'd make the payments, of course, then I just stopped paying. And the houses would go into foreclosure and the bank would take the house back and the bank would send out an appraiser to say, Hey, how much is this house worth? And the appraiser would once again say it's worth 220,000."
},
{
"end_time": 5062.125,
"index": 201,
"start_time": 5033.49,
"text": " And they put it on the market and it wouldn't sell. And then they lower the price. Three months later, they lower the price again. Three months later, they lower it again. And eventually they'd end up selling it for $70,000 or 50,000 or whatever. And they'd lose a hundred and something thousand. They'd say, man, that's crazy. I can't believe how off we were on that. That's yeah, that happened. So they didn't know there was a scam that had been committed. And you had already pulled the equity, pulled the money out. Oh, all the money's gone."
},
{
"end_time": 5092.688,
"index": 202,
"start_time": 5062.739,
"text": " No, they owe the bank $180,000, $210,000, and the bank just takes the loss because that does happen. People buy houses for $200,000 and then they foreclose on them and they resell the house and sometimes they get $110,000, sometimes they get $140,000. You know, by the time the house is taken back, it's been trashed. And after a year, the windows are knocked out, someone stole the copper, the AC doesn't work, and so they sell the house at an extreme loss."
},
{
"end_time": 5116.596,
"index": 203,
"start_time": 5093.899,
"text": " The banks never, they never thought fraud. It's now been a year or two since they've gotten these, or a year or so, since they got these documents, there's no way to verify anything. And if they did look into it, like if they started, they obviously sent letters or they'd send somebody by to try and serve you with paperwork for the foreclosure, I would, I would"
},
{
"end_time": 5130.862,
"index": 204,
"start_time": 5116.8,
"text": " Type up a letter, type up an article. I take an article from the newspaper and I'd insert my borrower's name into the article saying like there was a 12 car pile up on I-75 and someone was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital and I put Mr. Black in there."
},
{
"end_time": 5156.903,
"index": 205,
"start_time": 5131.544,
"text": " And then I'd write a letter from Mr. Black's sister saying, my brother was in a horrible accident. He's currently in a coma. The doctors say this is this is too much. I don't believe you did. This is too. You did all this. Listen, look, you look it up. The amount of articles that are out there. They even talk about Mr. Black, Mr. Green. They're like they talk to investigators for the bank and the investigator for the bank says, listen, I couldn't tell if this guy was alive or dead. His"
},
{
"end_time": 5186.51,
"index": 206,
"start_time": 5156.903,
"text": " How long did this last for you? Did you live like you borrowed $11 million? No, I never did because I'm not really a flashy person."
},
{
"end_time": 5214.087,
"index": 207,
"start_time": 5186.852,
"text": " You don't have a Porsche or a Lamborghini like I had a expensive Audi sports car. I actually lived in an area called Tampa Heights, which was kind of an up and coming area was being kind of, you know, urban renewal kind of thing, you know, and I owned a bunch of houses in that area. I had almost every house on my block and was renovating them. So, but the project was, you know, a mile, two miles away and"
},
{
"end_time": 5242.551,
"index": 208,
"start_time": 5214.787,
"text": " So I didn't live super flash. I traveled. I had money. I can do whatever I wanted, but you know, I don't need to, I'm not living in a $2 million house. I'm not trying. I'm on federal probation. I'm not trying to, I wasn't trying to, but you're on federal probation still doing this. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny too. Cause like my probation, I'll shirt up in my office one time and I had, I'm telling you, I must've had seven or eight phones, cell phones on the credenza behind my desk."
},
{
"end_time": 5272.346,
"index": 209,
"start_time": 5243.166,
"text": " Like, and I just was thinking, like, this guy's got to ask some questions here. Like that's not normal. Like that he's got to say, what's with these phones? But he never did. He just, Hey, what's going on? I don't think they're trained to look for fraud. How do you, how are you now? How are you on the straight and narrow now? Why now? Um, you know, I, I got 26 years. Like, like, first of all, there's two things. One, I got 26 years."
},
{
"end_time": 5302.858,
"index": 210,
"start_time": 5272.978,
"text": " Listen, I even tell you about going on the run for three years. But let's we don't want to get a question. Have you ever did you ever do any insurance fraud? Yes, but it was minor like these are like break ins and this was like, these are my age to break in. Well, one time only because I didn't have insurance when I got broken into. So then I went out and got homeowners insurance and I waited about a month and a half and then I called the police and said I got broken into."
},
{
"end_time": 5333.609,
"index": 211,
"start_time": 5304.684,
"text": " And then I maximize the policy. You know how they have policy limits? Like people think, Oh, you tell them $40,000 or you might get 10. Why? Cause you said that was 40,000 in for, for furniture. They only pay 10 for furniture. So I went through the policy and I said, okay, there's jewelry is up to $10,000. Great. $9,000. Here's the receipts. Did you create the receipts too? I would create receipts or something. You just go and get receipts. Like you can go and"
},
{
"end_time": 5360.384,
"index": 212,
"start_time": 5333.916,
"text": " walking if you're walking out of Home Depot, or you're walking out of people throw their receipts away like it remember Circuit City? You know, you grab receipts from Circuit City, you have friends that have receipts, you know, that own stores, friend of a friend. But the receipt has to match up with the date, at least the date. Yeah, but it's obviously it's going to match up with a date. And they're not backtracking any of this stuff. And most of the time, it's just photographs."
},
{
"end_time": 5387.193,
"index": 213,
"start_time": 5360.896,
"text": " I'm doing this project for the Coalition Against Insurance Fraud, and I've been interviewing people that have committed insurance fraud. And I was just curious, just based on everything that you were saying, I was thinking he must have done an insurance fraud scheme. You understand that a lot of these things, title insurance paid off too. So that was insurance."
},
{
"end_time": 5417.858,
"index": 214,
"start_time": 5389.974,
"text": " And I, it's not normal. The title fraud that I've committed was, is, is more than your average fraud, right? Like it's a different type of fraud. But it still falls under an insurance category. Yes. Well, for instance, you're buying a house. So you own the house. Let's say I own a house and I own a house and"
},
{
"end_time": 5446.305,
"index": 215,
"start_time": 5418.49,
"text": " On Monday, they do the title search. So they search the title, but it's not going to close till Friday. So I know it was searched. I know it came back on Monday. Call the, you know, you call the title insurance company and say, Hey, listen, did you, when'd you get the title policy back? Oh, we got it back yesterday. Oh, okay. Thanks. You immediately go and record a lien on the property for a new roof and the windows and whatever. It's $25,000. So"
},
{
"end_time": 5470.316,
"index": 216,
"start_time": 5446.664,
"text": " Then the house closes on Friday. You wait a week, you go to the new homeowner and you say, Hey, what's going on? Where's Matt Cox? Oh, he sold us the house. He did. Well, he never paid me this 25,000. He owes me and I have a lien on this property. Who'd you close through? And they go, Oh, we closed through lawyer's title. So he goes to lawyer's title and says, Hey, I did a bunch of work on this house."
},
{
"end_time": 5500.162,
"index": 217,
"start_time": 5471.357,
"text": " And he shows them the $25,000. Then they go and they go, no, we, we searched the house. He said, what are you talking about? I have a lien on it. They go back and search it and go, man, we missed the lien. He recorded it two days after we searched the policy during what's called the gap period. So we owe this guy $25,000. So they have to pay him $25,000. Now they can turn around and call and go to me and try and get the money from me. I said, nah, that guy did horrible work. I'm not paying that guy. And they go, we already paid him. Well, that's here's the thing."
},
{
"end_time": 5529.548,
"index": 218,
"start_time": 5500.589,
"text": " What I learned from dating the girl at the insurance company or at the title company was this, if there's a dispute over the fee, they have to pay it. So they won't sue me because I have a dispute over this guy, but they missed the title and by law they have to pay it. They cannot sue me because there's a dispute. So that's a nice little... You did this? Yeah, I've done that a few times. How much? Do you know how much you did it for? No."
},
{
"end_time": 5554.787,
"index": 219,
"start_time": 5529.787,
"text": " You didn't get caught for it though. No, listen, there's so much stuff I didn't like, they never charged me with credit card fraud. Every one of those people that every one of those identities, which I almost never talk about, they also got probably 50 $60,000 in credit cards. They also got like if I knew I was about to dump the guy, I'd go out and get three or four personal loans."
},
{
"end_time": 5584.292,
"index": 220,
"start_time": 5555.572,
"text": " through Bank of America, Wells Fargo on the synthetic identity. Right. Cause I'm about, I can get another a hundred thousand dollars out of this guy. Like I might've got, I probably got six or 700,000 for the property. I get another a hundred thousand. So how much did you make doing all this net? I don't, I mean, I, you know, I, I feel like I, a lot of that money went to other people. It went back into the properties. So they said it was nine point, they said my mortgage company did 40 million."
},
{
"end_time": 5614.753,
"index": 221,
"start_time": 5584.889,
"text": " But keep in mind that was just basic fraud. There was no real money involved. Like that's money fraudulent loans going to buy houses. So that's not really like money in my pocket. Sure. The other one is after they sold everything, it was $15 million that they said I did. Well, first they said it was like 25. Then we got it down to 15. We argued and then they said, well, there's nine and a half million missing. And then we argued and I got it down to 6 million because they just didn't want to do the paperwork."
},
{
"end_time": 5644.804,
"index": 222,
"start_time": 5615.179,
"text": " So my restitution $6 million. At one point, it was probably legitimately 9.5 million. I'm sorry. Yeah, 9.5 million. You're amazing. You're amazing. I think a lot of it has to do with your upbringing though. Like I think just probably that ongoing emotional abuse you like you were out here you're like guns blazing. I was gonna say it's funny if you read"
},
{
"end_time": 5675.009,
"index": 223,
"start_time": 5645.384,
"text": " If you read my book, like there are all these little tiny things that my father, like when someone, they say like, you know, like think back, like what's a story you can tell about your father? Like I don't, all I have, all my stories are like, they're rough and they're not rough in a, in a brutal way. They're rough in a way that at the time I laughed about it and looking back, I'm like, you don't say that to a kid. Like what, like that doesn't, what do you, why would you, you know,"
},
{
"end_time": 5699.599,
"index": 224,
"start_time": 5675.572,
"text": " I always remember this and I this because I always remember immediately thinking this because my dad was an alcoholic right but he made he worked for State Farm Insurance and he would get be sober for a year or two get drunk they put them in a rehab go right back to work this happened over and I don't mean like a 10-day rehab we're talking 45 days 30 days 90 days like outrageous one time they put our whole family in rehab"
},
{
"end_time": 5725.111,
"index": 225,
"start_time": 5700.06,
"text": " We had to all go to Alan on like twice a week, we're going to these Alan on meetings is like, why have I got to keep him sober? So what happened was I remember one time we were dry, we were he and I were driving in his BMW. And I have my little eyes on shirt on he's in a suit and tie, we're going to movie, you know, our movie day, right? Like we would go to go see a movie."
},
{
"end_time": 5755.333,
"index": 226,
"start_time": 5726.203,
"text": " And really, we never really would see a movie. He would drop me off and come back like four or five hours later. So but we're on our way. And I remember looking over at this car that was next to us. And it was a it was a beat up old Nova that was rusted out a bunch of little kids in the back seat. Mom and dad are in the front. And just the kids in the back because they just look filthy. They look filthy. Their clothes are messed up. The cars rusted out."
},
{
"end_time": 5783.626,
"index": 227,
"start_time": 5756.067,
"text": " And I remember being at a stop sign and looking over at these kids and they're staring at, at me through the window. And I just remember thinking, like just being like a shame that we had money and like, I felt bad for them. I remember looking down and my dad instinctively noticed something was wrong. And he looked over at me and he looked over at those kids and he looked at me and he goes, Hey, I was like, yes sir. And he goes, he goes, I wonder what the poor are doing today."
},
{
"end_time": 5814.838,
"index": 228,
"start_time": 5785.026,
"text": " And I just went and then he went and he's kind of chuckled and laughed. And I remember thinking, wow, like I like, and my, my thought, what I always remember from that is this, is that it was always no matter what you had to do, no matter how you had to behave, it was always better to be driving the BMW. And, and that's how he was. He was like, he made a lot of money for a lot of people. State Farm should have fired him 10 times."
},
{
"end_time": 5842.261,
"index": 229,
"start_time": 5815.435,
"text": " They never did. He was always the top 10 producing managers in the nation, always won the trips, always taught the classes. Whenever they had the big wigs come to the head office, they always called him in. They asked him to do training seminars. But every two years we got to throw this guy in a rehab. But that's okay. It's okay."
},
{
"end_time": 5867.892,
"index": 230,
"start_time": 5843.251,
"text": " He showed up one time, showed up one time and talked in front of a thousand people drunk. They had to practically pull them off stage, put them in rehab, get them back to work. You could behave however you want. Exactly. As long as you make everybody a ton of money. And I just remember thinking that. I remember my mom said one time, I remember asking her because God they used to fight all the time, all the time."
},
{
"end_time": 5896.323,
"index": 231,
"start_time": 5868.422,
"text": " And I mean, and I mean fights like where she'd get all the kids, put them in a car and drive and leave for a couple of days, come back. And I remember thinking, why, like, are you that in love with him that worse? You know, we're going back. And she said, you know, he's a good provider. You know, so it was like, it was like both of them, you know, I'm saying like they need, they need it. She had four kids. What's she going to do? So, yeah, I mean, I just, that's just how"
},
{
"end_time": 5924.855,
"index": 232,
"start_time": 5896.783,
"text": " I grew up. Hey, if you liked the video, do me a favor and hit the subscribe button, share the video and, uh, you know, leave me a comment in the comment section and I try and respond to as many comments as I possibly can. Uh, also I'm going to leave the book link for fool me once, which is going to be in the description. I'll leave the link to the book and any other social media links for, uh, Kelly Pope, if you want to get in touch with her."
},
{
"end_time": 5954.889,
"index": 233,
"start_time": 5925.333,
"text": " It started with a scream inside a quiet Maryland home. A mother trying to protect the family dog and her son in the grip of a violent hallucinogenic rage. By the time it was over, she was dead, and he claimed LSD made him do it. His name, David Minor IV, and we talked to him. Listen to Invisible Choir every other week as we uncover the most haunting true crimes you've never heard of."
},
{
"end_time": 5957.329,
"index": 234,
"start_time": 5955.196,
"text": " Available wherever you get your podcasts."
}
]
}No transcript available.